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Hey Teamliquid!
So im a mid master Zerg on SEA and i cant seem to win any game v Terran, i try to play a ling bling muta style but im just completed lost on when to macro, when to make an army and i just melt to drops even with 1-2 spines/spores at each base, i guess the biggest issue i have is timings, and i just never get to trade well,
i find scouting really hard V terran because there is 1000 things a terran can do and i feel like they have no weakness dont get me started on mines
i tried a roach hydra build but had no hope at all :/
i typically open Gasless 15 hatch into 5 min double gas but with reapers coming even earlier its just not worth it :/
ive got a replay where i thought i did ok and i lost anyways (my 3-3 ups to his 1-2)
i feel even when im ahead i never win or take advantage of it
any feedback would be awesome, cheers.
http://drop.sc/329992
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The hellbat drops really owned you. Banelings do good against hellbats use them even if its a bad trade its better than losing a million zerglings or drones. Your mutas came out to late to be of use. You teched to hive to late and you probably should have got infestors instead of so many mutas at that point in the game. Fungal then run your banelings in to kill hellbats then go in with zerglings so they don't get fried instantly by hellbats. Once ultras are out you should be much better off against bio/hellbat.
Other than that your macro could use some work.
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Why is the replay labeled TangSC vs. lizzy? Are you playing under Tang's account or do you just happen to be named Tang also? I'm really curious, considering that you only have 1 post.
Or are you Tang, asking for help? That doesn't seem like something he would do (make a new account, asking for help). He has the balls to ask a question if he's struggling.
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You were blind to his drop. Granted Neo Planet S has no fucking airspace, but if you put two lings along the topside then you can spot his drop en route towards your third. Also, think about your overlord placements. One between your main and third and one on the ridge right below your natural give you greater vision. It couldn't hurt to place lings along the bottom side as well.
At 9:40 you were floating 1200 minerals and 400 gas. If you are going to play a mass ling style (good choice to get a macro hatch at 8:00), then you should get a queen for that macro hatch. Your baneling nest was late - you want to get it with the first 50 gas right after you start your lair. Your injects were 7 energy off of perfect until the hellbat drops came. It's hard for everyone to avoid getting tunnel vision when things like this happen.
The hellbat drops rocked you - because you were completely blind along the topside of the map. One spine and one spore in each mineral line helps out a lot against hellbat drops. Just put the spine right behind the mineral line.
Where is your spire? At 11:20 I still only see ling/bling tech. You should plop that fucker down right when your lair finishes. At 11 minutes, you still haven't spread your creep beyond the third or below towards your fourth - that's five minutes of zilch creep spread.
You're blind as to what he's doing. Where is the ling in front of his nat, to check when he moves out? You actually have no idea if he is going mech or not - you just assume bio because you saw 4 marines as part of the drop earlier in the game. You need to have your third overlord tucked in the airspace below his main, ready to morph into an overseer the moment your lair completes. Alternatively, dump 100 gas into overlord speed. Either works. If you want to be prepared against the possibility of mech, then plop a roach warren down at 44 food along with your evo chambers. You don't have to build any roaches with it at all. But when your lair pops, and you SCOUT factories, then you can easily switch into roaches.
Watch the replay, and pay attention to your resources. You have 2000 minerals and 500 gas 11 minutes into the game. Here's a simple rule if you want to improve: If you ever, EVER let your minerals get above 500 (except if you are floating for mutalisks) then for all intents and purposes you have lost the game. If you ever let your minerals reach 2000 (ahem), then you should just leave (it really doesn't matter what you spend your resources on, as long as they are productively spent. You need to adopt the mentality of having low resources at every second of the game).
You start your spire at 13 minutes into the game. You are sitting on LING tech at 13 minutes into the game. How badly do you want him to come and kill you? You can survive with pure ling/bane (you don't have nearly enough to survive). You have 19 idle larva at 13 minutes into the game. Where is your 4th? What is your goal?
What I am trying to get across to you here is that YOU NEED TO HAVE A GAMEPLAN. Terran is not the problem here - the problem is that you have NO plan at all. Try to think of the game in terms other than unit composition. Think about it as a STRATEGY game. What is your goal here? If you have these powerful, 2/2 lings, you should secure map control with them. With all this money you are floating, there is no reason why you should not take a 4th and a 5th. Secure map control. Secure economic dominance. Fuck man, your plan can be - I want to max out on lings and mutas by 13 minutes. With 3 bases and 4 hatches all with queens? You CAN do that.
Terran dropping you too much? Where are your mutas? They could have been out by 11:20 if you had plopped down your spire immediately. Cleaning up drops and securing your fourth would have been a breeze.
Fuck, man - if you are afraid of hellbats or are having trouble with a pure ling composition then there is NO reason why you cannot spend 100 on roach speed, and add around 10-12 roaches to your composition. None at all. Roaches don't become shitty against bio until 2/2 and 4+ medivacs get on the field. It's going to take a little bit of scouting on your part to identify whether T is going to push out at 7:30 or not, but lings build so quickly that they can be completely reactionary. You have more than enough time to drone your third's minerals and take gas before aggression comes.
It's better to AGGRESSIVELY take your 4th instead of waiting. Taking it early cannot hurt you. You are taking it primarily for the gas anyhow.
Terran taking a 3rd is a great trigger for you to start your hive. For the cost of one mutalisk you have can the infestation pit down, meaning that you can start that hive whenever you want.
Let's do another benchmark. 14:30 into the game. How many resources do you have? 3000 minerals and 1500 gas! You could have been MAXED by now. Yes, that's right. Maxed. What supply are you at? 94. I want you to adopt the mentality of making shit. Make a lot of shit. Aggressively expand and make it your goal to max as quickly as possible. You could have maxed on ling/bling/muta and OBLITERATED this dude by 13 minutes.
The hellbats were not what killed you. The terran was not even a FACTOR in this game. This terran IS terrible. He is not, and should not be a masters player. The fact that his play is better than yours (and he is floating 2200 minerals on a mineral based composition 16:40 into the game) speaks volumes.
Do not LET him dictate the pace of the game without a fight. Do NOT be timid. Be aggressive. Aggressively expand. Aggressively move to control the map. Aggressively spend ALL of your money. Work as hard as you can to max out on a stable economy as EARLY as you can. Establish your own benchmarks and attempt to improve on them every game.
DO NOT let your resources ever get above 400/400. NEVER be satisfied with being in the dark. Keep your eye on the minimap and constantly GIVE YOURSELF THINGS TO DO. Anything is better than nothing. You are not doing anything and that is why you are 106 supply 16:40 into the game. This is not master league level play. This is platinum level play.
I want you to think aggressively in everything you do. I want you to adopt the mindset that you are going to obliterate this guy through sheer macro.
This is how I would analyze my own replay. There you go. Hope it motivates you to improve.
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On May 03 2013 06:05 Qwyn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +You were blind to his drop. Granted Neo Planet S has no fucking airspace, but if you put two lings along the topside then you can spot his drop en route towards your third. Also, think about your overlord placements. One between your main and third and one on the ridge right below your natural give you greater vision. It couldn't hurt to place lings along the bottom side as well.
At 9:40 you were floating 1200 minerals and 400 gas. If you are going to play a mass ling style (good choice to get a macro hatch at 8:00), then you should get a queen for that macro hatch. Your baneling nest was late - you want to get it with the first 50 gas right after you start your lair. Your injects were 7 energy off of perfect until the hellbat drops came. It's hard for everyone to avoid getting tunnel vision when things like this happen.
The hellbat drops rocked you - because you were completely blind along the topside of the map. One spine and one spore in each mineral line helps out a lot against hellbat drops. Just put the spine right behind the mineral line.
Where is your spire? At 11:20 I still only see ling/bling tech. You should plop that fucker down right when your lair finishes. At 11 minutes, you still haven't spread your creep beyond the third or below towards your fourth - that's five minutes of zilch creep spread.
You're blind as to what he's doing. Where is the ling in front of his nat, to check when he moves out? You actually have no idea if he is going mech or not - you just assume bio because you saw 4 marines as part of the drop earlier in the game. You need to have your third overlord tucked in the airspace below his main, ready to morph into an overseer the moment your lair completes. Alternatively, dump 100 gas into overlord speed. Either works. If you want to be prepared against the possibility of mech, then plop a roach warren down at 44 food along with your evo chambers. You don't have to build any roaches with it at all. But when your lair pops, and you SCOUT factories, then you can easily switch into roaches.
Watch the replay, and pay attention to your resources. You have 2000 minerals and 500 gas 11 minutes into the game. Here's a simple rule if you want to improve: If you ever, EVER let your minerals get above 500 (except if you are floating for mutalisks) then for all intents and purposes you have lost the game. If you ever let your minerals reach 2000 (ahem), then you should just leave (it really doesn't matter what you spend your resources on, as long as they are productively spent. You need to adopt the mentality of having low resources at every second of the game).
You start your spire at 13 minutes into the game. You are sitting on LING tech at 13 minutes into the game. How badly do you want him to come and kill you? You can survive with pure ling/bane (you don't have nearly enough to survive). You have 19 idle larva at 13 minutes into the game. Where is your 4th? What is your goal?
What I am trying to get across to you here is that YOU NEED TO HAVE A GAMEPLAN. Terran is not the problem here - the problem is that you have NO plan at all. Try to think of the game in terms other than unit composition. Think about it as a STRATEGY game. What is your goal here? If you have these powerful, 2/2 lings, you should secure map control with them. With all this money you are floating, there is no reason why you should not take a 4th and a 5th. Secure map control. Secure economic dominance. Fuck man, your plan can be - I want to max out on lings and mutas by 13 minutes. With 3 bases and 4 hatches all with queens? You CAN do that.
Terran dropping you too much? Where are your mutas? They could have been out by 11:20 if you had plopped down your spire immediately. Cleaning up drops and securing your fourth would have been a breeze.
Fuck, man - if you are afraid of hellbats or are having trouble with a pure ling composition then there is NO reason why you cannot spend 100 on roach speed, and add around 10-12 roaches to your composition. None at all. Roaches don't become shitty against bio until 2/2 and 4+ medivacs get on the field. It's going to take a little bit of scouting on your part to identify whether T is going to push out at 7:30 or not, but lings build so quickly that they can be completely reactionary. You have more than enough time to drone your third's minerals and take gas before aggression comes.
It's better to AGGRESSIVELY take your 4th instead of waiting. Taking it early cannot hurt you. You are taking it primarily for the gas anyhow.
Terran taking a 3rd is a great trigger for you to start your hive. For the cost of one mutalisk you have can the infestation pit down, meaning that you can start that hive whenever you want.
Let's do another benchmark. 14:30 into the game. How many resources do you have? 3000 minerals and 1500 gas! You could have been MAXED by now. Yes, that's right. Maxed. What supply are you at? 94. I want you to adopt the mentality of making shit. Make a lot of shit. Aggressively expand and make it your goal to max as quickly as possible. You could have maxed on ling/bling/muta and OBLITERATED this dude by 13 minutes.
The hellbats were not what killed you. The terran was not even a FACTOR in this game. This terran IS terrible. He is not, and should not be a masters player. The fact that his play is better than yours (and he is floating 2200 minerals on a mineral based composition 16:40 into the game) speaks volumes.
Do not LET him dictate the pace of the game without a fight. Do NOT be timid. Be aggressive. Aggressively expand. Aggressively move to control the map. Aggressively spend ALL of your money. Work as hard as you can to max out on a stable economy as EARLY as you can. Establish your own benchmarks and attempt to improve on them every game.
DO NOT let your resources ever get above 400/400. NEVER be satisfied with being in the dark. Keep your eye on the minimap and constantly GIVE YOURSELF THINGS TO DO. Anything is better than nothing. You are not doing anything and that is why you are 106 supply 16:40 into the game. This is not master league level play. This is platinum level play.
I want you to think aggressively in everything you do. I want you to adopt the mindset that you are going to obliterate this guy through sheer macro.
This is how I would analyze my own replay. There you go. Hope it motivates you to improve.
Thanks for the detailed reply, Qwyn. I'm a high diamond Z and have trouble with Terran myself. Your post has given me a lot of benchmarks to work with. Thanks^^
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On May 03 2013 06:41 Jinky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 06:05 Qwyn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +You were blind to his drop. Granted Neo Planet S has no fucking airspace, but if you put two lings along the topside then you can spot his drop en route towards your third. Also, think about your overlord placements. One between your main and third and one on the ridge right below your natural give you greater vision. It couldn't hurt to place lings along the bottom side as well.
At 9:40 you were floating 1200 minerals and 400 gas. If you are going to play a mass ling style (good choice to get a macro hatch at 8:00), then you should get a queen for that macro hatch. Your baneling nest was late - you want to get it with the first 50 gas right after you start your lair. Your injects were 7 energy off of perfect until the hellbat drops came. It's hard for everyone to avoid getting tunnel vision when things like this happen.
The hellbat drops rocked you - because you were completely blind along the topside of the map. One spine and one spore in each mineral line helps out a lot against hellbat drops. Just put the spine right behind the mineral line.
Where is your spire? At 11:20 I still only see ling/bling tech. You should plop that fucker down right when your lair finishes. At 11 minutes, you still haven't spread your creep beyond the third or below towards your fourth - that's five minutes of zilch creep spread.
You're blind as to what he's doing. Where is the ling in front of his nat, to check when he moves out? You actually have no idea if he is going mech or not - you just assume bio because you saw 4 marines as part of the drop earlier in the game. You need to have your third overlord tucked in the airspace below his main, ready to morph into an overseer the moment your lair completes. Alternatively, dump 100 gas into overlord speed. Either works. If you want to be prepared against the possibility of mech, then plop a roach warren down at 44 food along with your evo chambers. You don't have to build any roaches with it at all. But when your lair pops, and you SCOUT factories, then you can easily switch into roaches.
Watch the replay, and pay attention to your resources. You have 2000 minerals and 500 gas 11 minutes into the game. Here's a simple rule if you want to improve: If you ever, EVER let your minerals get above 500 (except if you are floating for mutalisks) then for all intents and purposes you have lost the game. If you ever let your minerals reach 2000 (ahem), then you should just leave (it really doesn't matter what you spend your resources on, as long as they are productively spent. You need to adopt the mentality of having low resources at every second of the game).
You start your spire at 13 minutes into the game. You are sitting on LING tech at 13 minutes into the game. How badly do you want him to come and kill you? You can survive with pure ling/bane (you don't have nearly enough to survive). You have 19 idle larva at 13 minutes into the game. Where is your 4th? What is your goal?
What I am trying to get across to you here is that YOU NEED TO HAVE A GAMEPLAN. Terran is not the problem here - the problem is that you have NO plan at all. Try to think of the game in terms other than unit composition. Think about it as a STRATEGY game. What is your goal here? If you have these powerful, 2/2 lings, you should secure map control with them. With all this money you are floating, there is no reason why you should not take a 4th and a 5th. Secure map control. Secure economic dominance. Fuck man, your plan can be - I want to max out on lings and mutas by 13 minutes. With 3 bases and 4 hatches all with queens? You CAN do that.
Terran dropping you too much? Where are your mutas? They could have been out by 11:20 if you had plopped down your spire immediately. Cleaning up drops and securing your fourth would have been a breeze.
Fuck, man - if you are afraid of hellbats or are having trouble with a pure ling composition then there is NO reason why you cannot spend 100 on roach speed, and add around 10-12 roaches to your composition. None at all. Roaches don't become shitty against bio until 2/2 and 4+ medivacs get on the field. It's going to take a little bit of scouting on your part to identify whether T is going to push out at 7:30 or not, but lings build so quickly that they can be completely reactionary. You have more than enough time to drone your third's minerals and take gas before aggression comes.
It's better to AGGRESSIVELY take your 4th instead of waiting. Taking it early cannot hurt you. You are taking it primarily for the gas anyhow.
Terran taking a 3rd is a great trigger for you to start your hive. For the cost of one mutalisk you have can the infestation pit down, meaning that you can start that hive whenever you want.
Let's do another benchmark. 14:30 into the game. How many resources do you have? 3000 minerals and 1500 gas! You could have been MAXED by now. Yes, that's right. Maxed. What supply are you at? 94. I want you to adopt the mentality of making shit. Make a lot of shit. Aggressively expand and make it your goal to max as quickly as possible. You could have maxed on ling/bling/muta and OBLITERATED this dude by 13 minutes.
The hellbats were not what killed you. The terran was not even a FACTOR in this game. This terran IS terrible. He is not, and should not be a masters player. The fact that his play is better than yours (and he is floating 2200 minerals on a mineral based composition 16:40 into the game) speaks volumes.
Do not LET him dictate the pace of the game without a fight. Do NOT be timid. Be aggressive. Aggressively expand. Aggressively move to control the map. Aggressively spend ALL of your money. Work as hard as you can to max out on a stable economy as EARLY as you can. Establish your own benchmarks and attempt to improve on them every game.
DO NOT let your resources ever get above 400/400. NEVER be satisfied with being in the dark. Keep your eye on the minimap and constantly GIVE YOURSELF THINGS TO DO. Anything is better than nothing. You are not doing anything and that is why you are 106 supply 16:40 into the game. This is not master league level play. This is platinum level play.
I want you to think aggressively in everything you do. I want you to adopt the mindset that you are going to obliterate this guy through sheer macro.
This is how I would analyze my own replay. There you go. Hope it motivates you to improve. Thanks for the detailed reply, Qwyn. I'm a high diamond Z and have trouble with Terran myself. Your post has given me a lot of benchmarks to work with. Thanks^^
No problem, I'm glad I could help. I'm still curious as to why this guy's account is named TangSC, lol. There can't be so many Tangs floating around...though it could all be a coincidence.
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Another tip of the hat to Qwyn, thanks for the useful post
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My tips might not be as good as some professionals that frequent these forums, however I have noticed foregoing mutalisks in favor of static D and then faster tech up to hive for 3/3 to match the terran, andrenal, and ultra's works well for me in mid masters (1300 pts last season). When I pumped high muta count to deal with drops I would still take dmg if they were out of position and it would delay my upgrades and ultra's.
Basically just put enough static D down so the drop has to kill that 1st before going for economy which buys you enough time to get your lings over before you lose anything other than a spine or 2.
Also roach attk as you are taking your 3rd followed by drones is very nice since so many terran on ladder seem to be doing very greedy 3rd command with 2x engineering and just 6-8 hellions and maybe like 1 marauder (some terran even skip this), 1 marine for defense. If I scout that very common build the roaches almost always do enough damage to give me a decently big lead.
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Hello,
i am EU masters, average 1100 MMR here, what is something between mid and low masters
and i want you to know that i have similar problem, stats:
winrate:
ZvP: 70% ZvZ: 80% ZvT: 24%
...
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I am not clear on the viability of the strategy at the pro level, but I saw 'Sortof' use a ling bling hydra comp in a WCS NA match. My success vs terran has sky rocketed since implementing this strat into my own play. You lose the muta harass potential, but i find defending drops with hydra is actually much easier. Their DPS forces terran to make decisions (which is always a good thing), and often kills the drop if the terran hesitates or has simply qued the drop (lazy). Half the time, Terran has been cutting WM production in favor of tanks vs this, which is not scary at all (hydra not armored/vipers late game). Hydra are half the gas of mutas, and shoot down medivacs twice as fast. You can maintain map control with speed lings and speed blings while defending drops at home with as little as 3 or 4 hydra per base. Major engagements with hydras added forces medi micro, and if you win convincingly, greatly reduces drop harass as they are forced to rebuild medis. It also prevents T from simply picking up and flying past your army to drop in your bases. Also, it opens a 2-2 ling/bling/speed hydra timing in the early midgame if you choose to go that route. Late mid-game, infestors really compliment hydras as they outrange marines. And Late game, the hydras compliment Ultra/ling, adding dps from 6 range.
Im sure you all can find holes and reasons not to go hydra over muta, but its been working wonders for me. I ended last season 28% vs diamond T. Since implementing hydras in my ZvT (this season), I was finally promoted to masters and am currently 8-in-5 (62%) vs T.
P.S. thank you for your post Qwyn. Since reading it, my ZvP has already improved. Mind over matter.
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