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Hey guys, Furbiford here. About 2 months ago I posted a guide on how I go about executing mech in TvP. Feel free to check out the previous guide here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=433151
Since I’ve posted that guide I have learned so much more about mech for TvP and my play style for the matchup has changed significantly. Since my play has changed so much, I’ve decided to post a new version of my guide instead of just updating the old one. My goal from the previous guide is still the same: to clear up any misconceptions about mech vs. Protoss and to show that bio isn’t the only viable option Terran has. Without further ado let’s get started!
The first thing I’m going to do is explain a big difference between mech and bio:
Mech benefits more from how well someone macros; bio benefits more from how well someone micros.
Mech units are primarily slow moving, have high HP, and have lengthy build times. As Terrans we should already know that banking resources for us is no bueno, but as a meching player that fact cannot be stressed enough. If you haven’t kept up on your macro, and get caught in a bad position with your mech army, you have the potential to lose that army. As a result of not keeping up on your macro, you will not be able to remake another army in time for the eventual attack that Protoss will make against you.
Bio units, on the other hand, are very mobile, have low HP, and have short build times. Notice that this is the complete opposite of what mech is. If your micro isn’t up to par, you will lose your bio units far more easily than you would if you had a mech army. Sure, you can macro a bio army easily, but that won’t do you too much good if you don’t have good enough micro to keep those units alive.
Now onto the explanation of the units:
Core Units
Hellion: This is your main harassing unit early on and what gives you map control early on. Some common tactics that are done include Hellions poking into the natural, a Hellion drop in the main to harass the mineral line, or a combination of both (if you have the multi-tasking for it).
Hellbat: Your core combat meching unit. This guy is able to dish out good damage as well as tank damage for the rest of your units. Additionally, you can utilize Hellbat drops to further cripple your opponent’s economy.
Siege Tank: The main combat support unit for your Hellbats. This unit is good with fighting against the units that the Hellbat has a hard time with.
Ghost: A support unit that is great vs. any Protoss unit, but is primarily used against Immortals, High Templar, and Archons.
Medivac: Utilized for early drops, if you choose, via Widow Mines or Hellions. This unit is also used to help keep your Hellbats alive for tanking and for Hellbat drops.
Other Support Units
Viking: A support unit to help aide in the fight against Colossi and if the Protoss plans on utilizing Star Gate units.
Banshee: A combat support unit to help aide in the fight against Immortals, Colossi, and Zealots.
Raven: A support unit to help deal with any Dark Templar shenanigans early on and can be useful with dealing with Stalkers via its Point Defense Drone ability. This is your main late game unit and really shines when it’s a low econ situation for both players.
Thor: A support unit that provides another form of anti-air as well as having good DPS vs. ground units.
Widow Mine: This unit is mainly used for early game defense vs. Star Gate tech, but can also be used as a harassment tool early on via Widow Mine drops. This unit also shines in the late game against an opponent who is going for mass Star Gate units.
Furbiford’s Mech Build
If you want to play a macro oriented mech style, plan on getting an early 3 bases due to the amount of gas necessary to get your ideal unit composition. Here is the basic build order I've been using:
Basic Build Order
10 Supply Depot *at ramp*
12 Barracks
12 Refinery
15 Orbital
15 Reaper *remove SCVs from Refinery once you reach an extra 50 gas*
Next 400 minerals build Command Center *built in-base*
Next 50 minerals add Reactor on Barracks *build at least 4 Marines after completion*
Next 100 minerals build Supply Depot *at ramp*, and then add 3 SCVs back to Refinery
Next 125 minerals build Engineering Bay
Next 100 gas build Factory
The Early Game
Send the Reaper to the opponent’s natural, based on what you see will determine how you react:
If there is no Nexus being built:
Finish the wall off at your ramp with a Bunker, build a Missle Turret in your mineral line and start preparing for the possibility of some form of one base aggression. You will keep pumping out Marines for defense. If you scout no expand by 5 minutes, send the Reaper into the opponent’s main to scout. If it is anything other than Star Gate tech, build a tech lab on your Factory and start producing Siege Tanks. If it’s specifically Blink, throw down a couple of well positioned Bunkers as well. If it is Star Gate tech produce at least one Widow Mine first and then start producing Siege Tanks afterwards.
If there is a Nexus being built or already done:
Build your Bunker at your natural and your 4 initial Marines will go inside the Bunker. Feel free to take your natural expansion, swap the Barracks with the Factory, start producing Hellions, and take your 2nd gas. Make a Tech Lab with your Barracks; once that finishes lift off the Barracks and make a Factory on the Tech Lab.
From here you have a couple of options: you can make a Star Port to go for additional harassment options via early Banshees or a Medivac to try to do some Hellion drops, or you can add an Armory to start getting your upgrades and the ability to produce Hellbats.
Next 400 minerals you will start your 3rd Command Center and take your 3rd and 4th gases. If you haven't gotten your Armory and/or Star Port yet get those built. Once you have 4 Factories get your Ghost Academy to start Ghost production, get the energy upgrade for your Ghosts, and research the Blue Flame upgrade for your Hellbats. As long as you are continuously making Ghosts from your initial Barracks there is no need to make additional Barracks. Once you have your 3rd CC up and running your production should consist of the following:
4 Factories producing Hellbats and Siege Tanks 1 Barracks producing Ghosts 1 Star Port producing Medivacs or Vikings
General Mid Game Plan
Utilize Hellions for harassment, map control, scouting what the opponent’s unit composition looks like, and keeping the Protoss on the defensive. Some people have said that it is necessary that you do economic damage to the Protoss with the Hellions. While it is nice if you can get worker kills with the Hellions it is not crucial, so don't just stupidly suicide lots of Hellions just to try to get worker kills. You will wind up hurting yourself more than your opponent. Your primary unit composition will be Hellbat/Tank/Ghost/Medivac, but adjust your composition as necessary. When you are adding Factories don't get add ons right away. Since the composition is primarily Hellbat based the add ons are not needed immediately; this will allow you to max out that much faster. Once you are close to maxing out or are maxed out is the best time to throw down your add ons on your Factories. I usually just get all Tech Labs. Only start adding more Star Ports for an air transition once you have a minimum of 6 Factories.
Engaging The Protoss Army
The main thing you want to make sure of is to have your Hellbats in the front with your Siege Tanks/Ghosts behind them. Unless you are in a good defensive position or the opponent’s army is primarily Stalker/Colossi it is usually always better to leave your Tanks in tank mode; they are more mobile that way and they deal better damage to most Protoss units when not sieged. Once you know the Protoss is committing to the engagement, EMP like a mad man. If you are at the stage of the game where you’re adding Banshee’s into the mix, don’t clump them up with your whole army. Have the Banshee’s attack at a different angle; this will make it so Psionic Storm doesn’t ruin your day. It’s helpful to also have a few Vikings with your Banshees to allow for Observer sniping; then the Banshees, while cloaked, can have free reign of terror on your opponent’s army.
Conclusion
I hope this shows other Terrans that you don’t have to go bio every game vs. Protoss. I also hope this will help out my Terran brethren that are having difficulties in the match up and want to play a nice, solid macro style of play. Thank you to everyone who took the time to read this guide.
Replays
http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769150 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769152 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769153 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769154 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769155 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769156 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769157 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769159 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769160 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769161 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769162 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769163 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769164 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769165 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769166 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4769167
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Hi there
I started meching in tvp with your first guide and added my twists to it. I was looking forward to read through guide 2.0 to see whether we reached the same conclusions.
The playstyle showed in guide 1.0 worked good for me on ladder. Often I was able to get around 30-40 probe kills which means you can pretty much do whatever you want now . I was struggling though once I started playing with the build against training partners. If the protoss would just turtle on 3 bases with canons and defensive stalkers I couldn't get the eco damage done. I struggled in lategame with hellbat/thor against maxed toss army. Especially against immortal/storm/archon or tempest play.
With the help of HTOMario I changed my approach. I play a hellbat/thor push that hits at 14 minutes with 10+ tanks and add vikings if they go colossus. After that I add banshees and ghosts and sometimes some thors. But I allways stick to hellbat/tank. Often you can just kill a protoss with the 14 minute push but my goal with it is to siege up the third. If it goes to lategame I focus on the banshee as much as I can. I always keep 4 vikings to snipe observers. The banshees forces toss to build stalkers which hurts him in the end because those are really bad against tanks.
To sum up. It looks like we both reached the same conclusion. I seem to prefer banshees more than you but I play in lower leagues that could be because of that.
I do struggle a bit with defending 1 base all ins. Scouting is it not the problem. But I lack the experience to choose the right composition to defend. I will have a look at your replays. From my experience pumping marine/tank works usually best and then add hellbat once you have an armory.
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On December 03 2013 16:47 t0n!ght wrote:Hi there I started meching in tvp with your first guide and added my twists to it. I was looking forward to read through guide 2.0 to see whether we reached the same conclusions. The playstyle showed in guide 1.0 worked good for me on ladder. Often I was able to get around 30-40 probe kills which means you can pretty much do whatever you want now . I was struggling though once I started playing with the build against training partners. If the protoss would just turtle on 3 bases with canons and defensive stalkers I couldn't get the eco damage done. I struggled in lategame with hellbat/thor against maxed toss army. Especially against immortal/storm/archon or tempest play. With the help of HTOMario I changed my approach. I play a hellbat/thor push that hits at 14 minutes with 10+ tanks and add vikings if they go colossus. After that I add banshees and ghosts and sometimes some thors. But I allways stick to hellbat/tank. Often you can just kill a protoss with the 14 minute push but my goal with it is to siege up the third. If it goes to lategame I focus on the banshee as much as I can. I always keep 4 vikings to snipe observers. The banshees forces toss to build stalkers which hurts him in the end because those are really bad against tanks. To sum up. It looks like we both reached the same conclusion. I seem to prefer banshees more than you but I play in lower leagues that could be because of that. I do struggle a bit with defending 1 base all ins. Scouting is it not the problem. But I lack the experience to choose the right composition to defend. I will have a look at your replays. From my experience pumping marine/tank works usually best and then add hellbat once you have an armory.
I'm glad my guide has helped you out . As for your problem with one base play, Marine/Tank is good with dealing with those kinds of tactics; maybe add an early Star Port too if it's a Star Gate based play. Once you know the Protoss is expanding usually you are safe to start the transition to mech.
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I'm glad that someone finally posted something like this.
"Ghost: A support unit that is great vs. any Protoss unit, but is primarily used against Immortals, High Templar, and Archons."
A lot of people complain about Immortals making mech not viable, but they underestimate the strength of Ghosts. If your opponent has an Immortal based army, just a few Ghosts can allow you to STOMP him.
Nice to see someone actually try to mech rather than complain about how it's not viable. I main Protoss, which gives me an edge when I play TvP I think. Being aggressive with Hellions/Hellbats is essential as you pointed out. But most importantly you need those support units to make mech work. You can't just mass Tanks/Thors and expect it to work.. the game is much more refined than that.
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On December 04 2013 01:21 DinoMight wrote: I'm glad that someone finally posted something like this.
"Ghost: A support unit that is great vs. any Protoss unit, but is primarily used against Immortals, High Templar, and Archons."
A lot of people complain about Immortals making mech not viable, but they underestimate the strength of Ghosts. If your opponent has an Immortal based army, just a few Ghosts can allow you to STOMP him.
Nice to see someone actually try to mech rather than complain about how it's not viable. I main Protoss, which gives me an edge when I play TvP I think. Being aggressive with Hellions/Hellbats is essential as you pointed out. But most importantly you need those support units to make mech work. You can't just mass Tanks/Thors and expect it to work.. the game is much more refined than that.
I used to not go for Ghosts with my TvP mech and I sometimes wonder why I did that in the first place lol. Ghosts make going mech vs Protoss a lot easier. Ghosts are also easier to use with a mech army than with a bio army.
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I see there have been a lot of people who have viewed the thread, but nobody is saying anything. Any kind of feedback that the community can provide me on the guide and the build is fully appreciated! =)
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I read both guides and you kinda leave out the hardest part of mech - positioning and getting 'there'- both times.
Those are the hard concepts to grasp. You can tell random blalalala about unit counters, Ravens mean shit if you engage poorly, same goes for Vikings, Tanks, wall offs... how when to expand, what is safe transitioning time, how to deal harassement damage, how to pin your opponent on a composition, how do you move out, etc etc.
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On December 06 2013 00:22 SC2Toastie wrote: I read both guides and you kinda leave out the hardest part of mech - positioning and getting 'there'- both times.
Those are the hard concepts to grasp. You can tell random blalalala about unit counters, Ravens mean shit if you engage poorly, same goes for Vikings, Tanks, wall offs... how when to expand, what is safe transitioning time, how to deal harassement damage, how to pin your opponent on a composition, how do you move out, etc etc.
I'll work on trying to better explain those concepts. You're right, they are hard concepts to grasp. When I wrote this guide (and the original guide) the whole concept was to just have a simple, general guide that was easy to follow for everybody. I didn't want to make it too complex. This is good feedback, thank you SC2Toastie!
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SC2Toastie is right about this . However I think we could wait a bit and see if any pro players are trying to figure this one out, I think Flash/Fantasy are trying to make this a Standrad play in TvP/TvZ.
But the real strenght/weakness in mech is positioning, Moving out, Siege in the right locations etc etc
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On December 06 2013 02:14 never_Nal wrote:SC2Toastie is right about this . However I think we could wait a bit and see if any pro players are trying to figure this one out, I think Flash/Fantasy are trying to make this a Standrad play in TvP/TvZ.
Sure we could wait for pros to figure out a standard way to play mech in TvP, but until they do there is no harm for us to try to do the same. If we all work together we can make something happen.
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Do you have any more replays of the toss safely expanding into immortal stargate without losing 15+ workers to the first or second wave of hellions?
What is your solution to warp prism harass in the mid-late game?
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On December 06 2013 04:20 Traceback wrote: Do you have any more replays of the toss safely expanding into immortal stargate without losing 15+ workers to the first or second wave of hellions?
What is your solution to warp prism harass in the mid-late game?
I'll have to double check next time I sign on to SC2, but more than likely not. I've only recently started to figure out my ideal way of handling the matchup, so I don't have too many replays yet.
As for handling Warp Prisms in the mid-late game I use a combination of Missile Turrets, a pair of Vikings to kill the Warp Prism, and if the harassment is in my main my next round of units usually is able to take care of it.
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I'm definitely going to try this. I get absolutely ROFLstomped when I play bio/viking/ghost vs Protoss. Not saying it isn't balanced overall but for my skill level it definitely doesn't work with warp gate mechanics, etc. I simply can't get a cost efficient enough trade.
One question I have, sorry if I missed it, do you research Ghost upgrades for higher energy? I would think they are pretty crucial since the Toss will most likely go immortal to respond to siege tanks.
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On December 06 2013 04:56 Ctone23 wrote:One question I have, sorry if I missed it, do you research Ghost upgrades for higher energy? I would think they are pretty crucial since the Toss will most likely go immortal to respond to siege tanks.
Yes I do. I forgot to list it, I'll add that in now.
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Thank you for this post. What league are you able to play this? Do you have youtube vods?
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On December 06 2013 01:33 Furbiford wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 00:22 SC2Toastie wrote: I read both guides and you kinda leave out the hardest part of mech - positioning and getting 'there'- both times.
Those are the hard concepts to grasp. You can tell random blalalala about unit counters, Ravens mean shit if you engage poorly, same goes for Vikings, Tanks, wall offs... how when to expand, what is safe transitioning time, how to deal harassement damage, how to pin your opponent on a composition, how do you move out, etc etc. I'll work on trying to better explain those concepts. You're right, they are hard concepts to grasp. When I wrote this guide (and the original guide) the whole concept was to just have a simple, general guide that was easy to follow for everybody. I didn't want to make it too complex. This is good feedback, thank you SC2Toastie! In hindsight my message might have come across as agressive, which I never ment to...
I understand what you try to do and respect it, but I think the guide is not complete without these concepts in it. On the other hand, it'd quadrouple in size if you did that...
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Most mech players that I meet refuse to build ravens, some even refuse to build ghosts.
Later game goes, build more ravens. Cut some tanks but mostly hellbats in exchange.
Im only mid-low master terran (offrace) but I only mech in TvP. I go very fast expansions. Then I slowly move out of hellbat/tank/ghost into Raven/tank/thor/ghost, sometimes even banshees.
I think people underrate thors very badly. In lategame protoss have less and less zealots so hellbats are not usefull anymore. When ghost emps immortal, thor kills immortal so fast.
And one of the mainpoints is, dont play in open maps. Play on maps that have lot of chokes.
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On December 06 2013 05:10 llIH wrote: Thank you for this post. What league are you able to play this? Do you have youtube vods?
You are quite welcome sir. I have won games using this style against players in Masters. I don't have any YouTube vods, but I am thinking about trying to stream some of my ladder sessions so people can see some of my TvP live.
On December 06 2013 05:49 SC2Toastie wrote: In hindsight my message might have come across as agressive, which I never ment to...
I understand what you try to do and respect it, but I think the guide is not complete without these concepts in it. On the other hand, it'd quadrouple in size if you did that...
You didn't come off as aggressive to me. I do appreciate the feedback. Since I'm still somewhat developing my mech build I don't want to try to add these more specific concepts in just yet. Once I have a complete understanding of it I will try incorporating these concepts into the guide.
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On December 06 2013 06:52 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: Most mech players that I meet refuse to build ravens, some even refuse to build ghosts.
Later game goes, build more ravens. Cut some tanks but mostly hellbats in exchange.
Im only mid-low master terran (offrace) but I only mech in TvP. I go very fast expansions. Then I slowly move out of hellbat/tank/ghost into Raven/tank/thor/ghost, sometimes even banshees.
I think people underrate thors very badly. In lategame protoss have less and less zealots so hellbats are not usefull anymore. When ghost emps immortal, thor kills immortal so fast.
And one of the mainpoints is, dont play in open maps. Play on maps that have lot of chokes.
I have both the large maps vetoed.
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