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United Kingdom10443 Posts
3 Hatch Before Pool, Learning from Jaedong
IEM Cologne just finished up and once again EG player Jaedong achieved great success with a top 4 finish. He was eventually knocked out in the semi-finals 3-2 against Liquid Hero, the eventual tournament winner.
Jaedong himself stated he had not been playing well at the tournament, despite this admirable modesty I was very impressed by a lot of Jaedong’s games. In particular I felt that his 3 hatch before pool build was very well designed and thought out. For this reason I decided to look in depth at how Jaedong utilises this build and why it is so powerful.
Overview of the build
The key behind the 3 hatch before pool is surprisingly not in its early economic strength. Zerg does not have a huge drone lead over the Protoss in the early/early-mid game with this build. The strength of the build is the EXPLOSIVE production boost that Zerg can experience to set up a very strong mid game position.
Here is the theory
Prioritise queens and make sure to hit every inject giving you a great bank of larva.
Scout the Protoss to see if there is going to be gateway pressure or Tech.
If the Protoss is taking a Tech Route e.g. Stargate. Use all the larvae for a huge swell of drones to boost up to a huge 3 base economy and set up a great midgame position.
If the Protoss is employing gateway pressure try and find pylons/probes, use lings, queens, spines and maybe roaches to defend. Once the attack is held off use the 3 hatches to explode with drones and again set up a great midgame position.
Pros
- Potential to explode with drones - Great production potential - Forces the Protoss to react - Regular 2 base timings from Protoss are easier to hold off.
Cons
- Hard to hold off early gateway aggression if you are not Jaedong - Mechanically demanding!
What does Jaedong do?
Here are some examples of Jaedong using this build at IEM Cologne. I aim to show how he reacts based on scouting and the great decisions he makes.
IEM Cologne R08 – Jaedong vs Patience Game 2 Map - Polar Night
Jaedong opens with his 3 hatch build and then the pool soon after. 3 queens are built as soon as possible.
Jaedong scouts the front and sees two gateways however he also scouts the Stargate in the main of Patience. This is his trigger to build a huge number of drones.
The explosive potential of his 3 hatcheries means that Jaedong is up at 60 drones with Lair and ling speed on the way by 7:30.
Jaedong decides to go into hydra and he has a great position for the midgame.
IEM Cologne R08 – Jaedong vs Patience Game4 Map - Frost LE
Jaedong opens 3 hatch before pool, an easy decision on this large, 4 player map.
Jaedong tries very hard to scout the front of the Protoss base. He spots no gateways, this is his tip to build a huge amount of drones as gateway pressure is unlikely.
Patience is going for a normal 2 base blink all in. Such a build would normally be difficult to hold, however by the 7:30 mark, Jaedong has 61 drones, speed and 1/1 already on the way.
The blink push is held off by lings no problem and Jaedong has a fantastic position.
With a flourishing 3 base economy, and the all in held off Jaedong can continually produce huge amounts of zerglings with his excellent production and Patience has to GG.
IEM Cologne R04 – Jaedong vs Hero Map - Heavy Rain LE
This game shows how good Jaedong is at fending off the early aggression from Hero and setting up a fantastic position.
Jaedong takes his 3 bases as usual and scouts the front of Hero. He spots two early gateways going down so pressure is likely.
In response Jaedong takes a gas earlier than usual and builds a few slow lings to look around for probes and pylons. A spine crawler is set up at the 3rd base.
The OL scout confirms a 4 gate, JD takes a 2nd gas and throws down his RW. A second spine crawler is added. JD has bought himself a lot of time by finding the first pylon.
Hero attacks with a big swarm of zealots but JD already has roaches and spines to defend. Hero can’t break through.
After he retreats JD goes back to droning. 3 base production allows his drone count to explode. JD has reached the midgame with a big advantage.
Some Potential Transitions
There is a huge range of builds that zerg can go for once the midgame has been reached.
Roach, Hydra timings and other variants are all very strong due to the production capability of zerg at this point and would be my recommendation.
Swarm host play is also strong but depends on the map
Muta switches should always be something you consider, often a good choice if you have traded armies with the protoss.
A Quick Build order to get you started
If you want to play like Jaedong here is a basic build order to start with 15 Hatch 18 Hatch 18 Pool 3 queens as fast as possible. 2 lings, scout the front of the Protoss base at 5.20 if you don’t have vision of it. 4th queen @ 5.30
If extra gates being added at the front and you expect gateway pressure Get 1 gas, 6 lings to look for pylons and probes 1 spine at the 3rd
If your opponent is teching DRONES!!!! 2 gas at 6 minutes.
VODS - courtesy of IEM, thanks to TL user Skynx
JD vs. Patience game2. Starts at 19:45
+ Show Spoiler +
JD vs. Patience game4. Starts at 01:45
+ Show Spoiler +
JD vs. HerO on Heavy Rain. Starts at 01:20
+ Show Spoiler +
In Summary
3 Hatch before pool is a great option with the current metagame being more gateway opening than forge opening. The explosive potential of the build forces Protoss to try and make something happen.
Undoubtedly the build is difficult and gateway pressure can be hard to hold but just play like Jaedong and everything will be ok.
I want to give a big thanks to IEM Cologne for hosting such a fantastic tournament and making all the replays available.
Of course a huge thank you to Jaedong for being such a sick Nerd.
And a final thank you to anyone who took the time to read this guide.
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Great guide, but Stardust never got to the RO8, it was AiPatience
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On February 18 2014 21:28 tbeen wrote:Great guide, but Stardust never got to the RO8, it was AiPatience
Thanks, corrected it
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Oh god, thank you so much man. Been losing every zvp since ages because I didn't have a clear build order, this should help a lot. Now I just have to figure out when to scout and which unit comp to get to counter P...
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Thank you for this guide.
I was wondering what happens if you go blindly into this build, just to find out he is going for a forge expand. How do you react?
I can imagine this happening on a large 4 player map, like frost.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On February 18 2014 22:14 Douillos wrote: Thank you for this guide.
I was wondering what happens if you go blindly into this build, just to find out he is going for a forge expand. How do you react?
I can imagine this happening on a large 4 player map, like frost.
Yeh I was thinking about this and for ladder games there is probably only a few maps you can do this build on
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On February 18 2014 22:18 KelsierSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 22:14 Douillos wrote: Thank you for this guide.
I was wondering what happens if you go blindly into this build, just to find out he is going for a forge expand. How do you react?
I can imagine this happening on a large 4 player map, like frost. Yeh I was thinking about this and for ladder games there is probably only a few maps you can do this build on 4P maps, I'd say.
It should theoretically be viable on all maps, but the risk of proxy gates and/or cannon rushes on 2P maps is much higher.
When does the gas start if you scout pressure (this single gas, not the 6 minute one). What timing do you suicide an overlord (5~5.30?)
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That being said, thanks for the guide!!
No drone scout right?
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Here are some vods before this thread gets shut down.
JD vs. Patience game2. Starts at 19:45
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgkqoenwaWo&list=PLhCH_nPE4JToQGBCI43tEC4NXqDfphb8f&index=7
JD vs. Patience game4. Starts at 01:45
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq_32D4mh8o&list=PLhCH_nPE4JToQGBCI43tEC4NXqDfphb8f&index=8
JD vs. HerO on Heavy Rain. Starts at 01:20
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP3b7JbsKGI&list=PLhCH_nPE4JToQGBCI43tEC4NXqDfphb8f&feature=c4-overview-vl
Edit: Forgot to say thank you for this guide. However I wonder how safe is this vs. potential forge openers, as Jaedong never drone scouts on any of these maps. I recall sOs had great success with it
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On February 18 2014 22:32 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 22:18 KelsierSC wrote:On February 18 2014 22:14 Douillos wrote: Thank you for this guide.
I was wondering what happens if you go blindly into this build, just to find out he is going for a forge expand. How do you react?
I can imagine this happening on a large 4 player map, like frost. Yeh I was thinking about this and for ladder games there is probably only a few maps you can do this build on 4P maps, I'd say. It should theoretically be viable on all maps, but the risk of proxy gates and/or cannon rushes on 2P maps is much higher. When does the gas start if you scout pressure (this single gas, not the 6 minute one). What timing do you suicide an overlord (5~5.30?)
If you scout pressure, which you scout about 5.20 then you want to start the gas almost instantly.
overlord about 6 minutes usually,
and yeh no drone scout
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By 10 scouting you should get enough intel whether to go for this build or not. Only super pros have to cut corners in such a way that they have to take risks by not drone scouting.
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On February 18 2014 22:44 Mahtasooma wrote: By 10 scouting you should get enough intel whether to go for this build or not. Only super pros have to cut corners in such a way that they have to take risks by not drone scouting.
You use the 10th drone (after overlord) to scout? I usually take one of the twin drones (11/12 supply) to scout with. Is there a considerable difference in timing?
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On February 18 2014 22:40 Skynx wrote:Here are some vods before this thread gets shut down. JD vs. Patience game2. Starts at 19:45 + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgkqoenwaWo&list=PLhCH_nPE4JToQGBCI43tEC4NXqDfphb8f&index=7 JD vs. Patience game4. Starts at 01:45 + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq_32D4mh8o&list=PLhCH_nPE4JToQGBCI43tEC4NXqDfphb8f&index=8 JD vs. HerO on Heavy Rain. Starts at 01:20 + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP3b7JbsKGI&list=PLhCH_nPE4JToQGBCI43tEC4NXqDfphb8f&feature=c4-overview-vl Edit: Forgot to say thank you for this guide. However I wonder how safe is this vs. potential forge openers, as Jaedong never drone scouts on any of these maps. I recall sOs had great success with it
No problem thanks for the VOD Links
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the problem with this build is cannon openings. Especially in maps like frost or alterzim, where it's expected to the toss to open a more greedy build.
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"just play like Jaedong and everything will be ok." How I wish I could do that lol Edit: On the topic... the mais reason it works for Jaedong is his perfect scouts and ability to buy time with his lings when it is needed. Making the protoss unable to warp units direct in your face helps a lot, so all pylons must be scouted and destroyed. Great guide man, thanks.
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Thanks so much for this guide. Watching him go three hatch before pool and still managing to stay safe against 4 gates and blink all ins was kind of amazing. Only danger I see is cannon builds but an early drone scout to check for the gateway/forge should clear that up.
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The biggest problem ive had with this type build are zealot/stalker/msc pushes. Its very difficult to get a second queen to your third base, and hugely disruptive to your econ. Is it just a matter of scouting that he's moving out and building lings? Sometimes they just aggressively clear the close xel naga tower, at which point you don't want to build ten lings. In the other hand, you don't want them wedging a zealot/stalker in your third mineral line where you can't clear them out with lings. Does anyone know how to deal with this, or does it just not occur at high level?
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Awesome guide! Posted it on reddit.com/r/Jaedong as well.
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United States248 Posts
On February 21 2014 10:12 Lobotomist wrote: The biggest problem ive had with this type build are zealot/stalker/msc pushes. Its very difficult to get a second queen to your third base, and hugely disruptive to your econ. Is it just a matter of scouting that he's moving out and building lings? Sometimes they just aggressively clear the close xel naga tower, at which point you don't want to build ten lings. In the other hand, you don't want them wedging a zealot/stalker in your third mineral line where you can't clear them out with lings. Does anyone know how to deal with this, or does it just not occur at high level?
Depends on the map, but take Frost for example - when the zealot shows up at your base you build 2-3 sets of lings and start moving queens down, and if a stalker comes you build another 3 sets of lings or so. Stalker/MSC/Zealot pressure gets shutdown just by microing the queen/slowling while building more queens/drones unless they commit to it with further units off 1 WG. Building just 6-8 sets of lings total doesn't set you behind because you already have 3 bases up and can spread out your drone count.
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On February 22 2014 23:59 Jowj wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 10:12 Lobotomist wrote: The biggest problem ive had with this type build are zealot/stalker/msc pushes. Its very difficult to get a second queen to your third base, and hugely disruptive to your econ. Is it just a matter of scouting that he's moving out and building lings? Sometimes they just aggressively clear the close xel naga tower, at which point you don't want to build ten lings. In the other hand, you don't want them wedging a zealot/stalker in your third mineral line where you can't clear them out with lings. Does anyone know how to deal with this, or does it just not occur at high level? Depends on the map, but take Frost for example - when the zealot shows up at your base you build 2-3 sets of lings and start moving queens down, and if a stalker comes you build another 3 sets of lings or so. Stalker/MSC/Zealot pressure gets shutdown just by microing the queen/slowling while building more queens/drones unless they commit to it with further units off 1 WG. Building just 6-8 sets of lings total doesn't set you behind because you already have 3 bases up and can spread out your drone count. Hmmm. Well if anyone has good replays...I'd love to see em
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