A Song of Ice and Fire

On December 02 2006 12:33 inkblot wrote:
I read the first book of A Song of Ice and Fire and haven't yet been inspired to read the others. TLers probably recommend it because its gritty and coarse compared to LotR or most other fantasies. Like others have said, characters die left and right. At the end of the first book, all my fav characters are dead so I don't really care to read more.

I recommend the Sword of Truth series. It definitely has some grit (read: sexual content, profanity, etc) without being over the top. The plot and characters are fantastic. While such things are a matter of taste, I can't help but feel that Sword of Truth blows ASOIAF out of the water and then some. I'm also a Wheel of Time fan, although the last book I read (Crossroads of Twilight) was pretty boring.

i stopped reading after the fires of heaven for some reason (meant for the WoT portion) but the series was pretty good, nothing like LoTR =X

IntoTheWow is awesome. December 02 2006 13:56. Posts 31040

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/waits for Hot_Bid

besiger Croatia. December 02 2006 14:14. Posts 2440

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any book that blatantly describes the bludgeoning of small children and hot lesbian action must be ok. Its a very good read, and im trying to get the whole series

A weak will coupled with delusions of grandeur

Hot_Bid Administrator December 02 2006 14:27.

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just read them, don't spoil yourself, its a lot better this way.

it may seem like a lot of characters and places and stuff and kind of overwhelming at first, but stick with it

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VerticalHorizon United States. December 02 2006 15:04. Posts 408

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Wow, I love how there are actually people who are complaining about a series that actually has some depth, realism, and focus on the IMPORTANT aspects of a story... juuuust because it isn't your standarf hack-and-slash D&D adventure novel with clearcut good guys and bad guys and a princess at the end.

George R. R. Martin is one of the finest EPIC fantasy writers in the field today. In fact, I've read a LOT of science fiction and fantasy and I can safely say that American/Western writers generally SUCK at writing epic fantasy. They make good fantasy adventure stories and they make cute fairy tales and there are some AMAZING epic SCI-FI writers (Herbert, Asimov, Card), but there are no notable epic FANTASY writers. The closest you have is like... Robert Jordan, and he lost all his mojo like 4 books back in the WoT series. All he does now is kill time, circle around meaningless plot devices, and indulge his own fetish for spanking. In short, his story got too big for him, he lost control of his story and now he's floundering around trying to put the pieces back together and pass it off like he actually knows what the fuck he's doing.

Martin is great. I promise you won't see another series like ASOIAF come again for a while. I'm going to actually go out on a limb and say that his series is the closest story in the Western tradition that can be compared to Luo Guanzhong's Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Sure, it's written in a more modern tone and it's more suitable for our time, but it has the makings of that kind of EPIC and LARGE-SCALE DRAMA.

The reason I fell in love with this series is, first and foremost, Martin is KING of his story. So many writers fail because they have an idea of the beginning, or the end of the story, or how a certain character should look, but they don't RULE their story - they aren't MASTERS of every aspect of their story. They lose control, like Jordan, like Goodkind, like Eddings. They get caught up in the aspects that they like, or they enjoy, and they just expand that one thing until it becomes MEANINGLESS because the other parts of their story begin to fail.

I mean, Christ, look at Eddings. You can totally tell that pretty much all he had in his mind when he wrote The Malloreon was duplicating the characters and story of The Belgariad. He LOVED his own characters (the witty Silk, Garion and the orb, Polgara and Belgarath's witty exchanges, the banter, etc.) SO MUCH that he made an entirely new series about them.... but with no original content. In fact, he had the NERVE to refer to it within the story and say "Oh, the Prophecy will repeat itself forever and ever until the last EVENT.... you know... that's why I'm totally copying and spitting this same exact story out again with the SAME EXACT DIALOGUE... it makes sense...."

Martin rules his story. He knows where he's going with it. He knows and loves his characters, but he loves them so much that he gives DUE CREDIT within the story. He knows they are not just words on paper but real people, with real desires and plans and dreams and weaknesses, and he allows them to propel the story forward on their own, instead of just using them over and over. I never tire of reading the books again and again because you can go back to "A Game of Thrones" and find out the seeds of something that will only come to fruition in "A Storm of Swords" or "A Feast for Crows." He KNOWS what he's doing and it is RARE to see a master of his craft like Martin.

And yes, the storyline IS complex and it IS rich. Why? Because it's got DEPTH. It's an EPIC. It's about nations and kingdoms, politicians and warlords, many factions raging against each other. AND on top of that, it's about the personal relationships, it's about characters growing up or falling down, learning and defining their own morals, ethics. And these things ARE complex. Morals... beliefs.... ideals like right and wrong... as much as people like to disagree, they are NOT as simple as a fucking stat roll and scribbling "Lawful Good" and your goddamn character sheet. These things ARE complicated.

When you've got a story of this magnitude and you are going to write it WELL, you ARE going to have complexity and a shitload of characters and multiple storylines moving at once. Otherwise, you get some retarded world like Eddings' where EVERY nation has ONE DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC and EVERYONE from that nation acts EXACTLY the same and ALL the kings are similar. I mean... are you serious? EVERY Sendar I've seen is hardworking, diligent, and owns a farm, while every Drasnian is clever, a merchant, and fucking James Bond. Come on, that's just fucking ridiculous.

Anyway, this post got long. But seriously, just try it out. or not. It's epic fantasy and it's very complex and rich, so if you don't like it, don't read it. I can't believe people are complaining about too many plotlines and too many characters. If you can't handle something this rich and complex, go away and read Gemmell or Salvatore. They're cute writers, we all love reading their fight scenes, and the good guy always gets the babe at the end.

Call it the greatest sin to prefer existence over honor and, for the sake of life, to lose the reasons for living. - Juvenal, Satires

Aileon United States. December 02 2006 15:32. Posts 299

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Fuck reading all that shit.

Way to write a dissertation about fantasy books.

Everyones Favorite Hick. aka Xeroth

Luhh Sweden. December 02 2006 15:33. Posts 2974

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On December 02 2006 09:53 LordofAscension wrote:
Awesome books. I don't know - the depth of the characters that he actually keeps alive are really The writing style isn't "great" compared to Eddings or Lawhead ...

~LoA

You must be fucking kidding me..? He is a very good writer. Most fantasy I've read, the writers sucked horribly. They had some fun stories or interesting ideas, but they were just bad writers abusing the english language. Two other mediocre / crappy writers but with interesting or fun stories for example, Robert Jordan and J R R Tolkien.

Another good fantasy book series I've read was "A cavern of black ice" or some lame title like that, but don't be fooled. I V Jones is a good writer and the series and characters are all very good, it's just that the title may turn a lot of people off I guess.

I wouldn´t call him stupid, but let´s just say he´s unlucky when thinking...

Knickknack United States. December 02 2006 16:19. Posts 1187

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Yea you realize a dissertation is say, 250 pages, while that was 2. That and "fuck reading" show that you are woefully ignorant.

And Luhh and LordofA should back up their claims better or I won't bother to give what they write a second look.

Geez just keep it on topic.

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Liquid`Nazgul Administrator December 02 2006 16:53.

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This is a sick motherfucking series. The depth is insane. Not only in character but the plot is absolutely amazing. If you read some of the theories there are about these books you'll be amazed even more.

Hot_Bid Administrator December 02 2006 16:59.

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On December 02 2006 15:32 Aileon wrote:
Fuck reading all that shit.

Way to write a dissertation about fantasy books.

dude its a forum, if you can't handle reading a page of text why are you even registered

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DarK]N[exuS China. December 02 2006 17:01. Posts 1441

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On December 02 2006 15:04 VerticalHorizon wrote:
Wow, I love how there are actually people who are complaining about a series that actually has some depth, realism, and focus on the IMPORTANT aspects of a story... juuuust because it isn't your standarf hack-and-slash D&D adventure novel with clearcut good guys and bad guys and a princess at the end

Despite youre incredibly long tirade, nobody actually said this at all. What a waste of effort, lol. Don't bring that "you can't appreciate" bullshit into this, because that's just pretentious. Maybe people other than yourself just don't like the writing style? They're then philistines, or uncouth, or some shit like that? Most people also don't like it when some jackass with no credentials attempts to pseudo-analyze the works of different authors, calling some "floundering" while others are "amazing." This is subjective, to say the least, and the language you use when completely denigrating every other author and anyone who enjoys their works is arrogant and insulting. I'd also like to point out that just because he has "complex ideas" doesn't mean that Martin can't be following a formula with them.

Yea you realize a dissertation is say, 250 pages, while that was 2. That and "fuck reading" show that you are woefully ignorant.

Yea you realize that taking what he said as literal and not hyperbole is woefully ignorant? That and taking a quote out of context so that it loses contextual meaning? Since he said "fuck reading THAT LONG POST" not "fuck reading in general?" It's also funny that after calling someone ignorant for not reading a post, you call someone out to defend themselves when they were actually supporting YOU. Talk about hypocrisy.

dude its a forum, if you can't handle reading a page of text why are you even registered

Because if you read the first line in that page of text you realize the poster is actually getting all defensive over something that never happened. Subsequently you realize that everything he's written would be pointless to read because it's completely irrelevant, as it's just going to be refuting something he THINKS someone said, when in actuality nobody said anything of the sort. Additionally there's quite a bit of "I'm better than you because I "appreciate" this writing, and you don't"

Also everyone should keep their fucking dicks in their pants. This isn't an ego contest, and just because you "appreciate the depth" of some author doesn't mean that other authors are hacks, or that your tastes are somehow "better" than other people's.

Back on topic, away from being bitchy about people acting like someone not liking what they like is some sort of crime:

The books are quite good, I agree. Someone earlier recommended Sword of Truth....I definitely agree. That series is amazing. I personally also suggest an author named David Gemmell but if you get all pissy like some of the previous posters about him "plagiarizing himself" (which is stupid, because you can't steal from yourself), then don't bother because he uses the same ideas a lot. I still enjoy reading his novels though. But hey, VerticalHorizon called him a an author for those who can't handle complexity or richness. So I guess I'm just a simpleminded fuck because I like his stories.

Last edit: 2006-12-02 17:18:05

Where joy exists despair will always beckon.

Nyovne Netherlands. December 02 2006 17:05. Posts 17105

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The plot is awsome and the thrill that he might just WTFPWN any main char at any time or empregnates with their brother is just the best.

Read it, experience it, enjoy it

.

I enjoyed AFFC :o

Can't wait for A dance with Dragons though.... Tyrion and Jon <3. Missed them in Feast, can't wait for Tyrion to be featured again, he's by far my favorite character

. I used to hate Arya but shes top notch as well now shes gotten nasty ^^.

Last edit: 2006-12-02 17:11:35

For remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.

Nyovne Netherlands. December 02 2006 17:08. Posts 17105

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On December 02 2006 16:53 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This is a sick motherfucking series. The depth is insane. Not only in character but the plot is absolutely amazing. If you read some of the theories there are about these books you'll be amazed even more.

Y the theories own. Some of the ones about Feast were crazy but quite possibly true ^^.

For remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.

Smurg Scotland. December 02 2006 17:10. Posts 3808

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On December 02 2006 17:01 DarK]N[exuS wrote:
Because if you read the first line in that page of text you realize the poster is actually getting all defensive over something that never happened. Subsequently you realize that everything he's written would be pointless to read because it's completely irrelevant, since it's just going to be refuting something he THINKS someone said, when in actuality nobody said anything of the sort.

You could've just said: "He mad at sometin dat dint even happen n says lots o words about it no point in readin it cos no one said nuffin about nuffin."

That'd be clear-cut and concise.

Last edit: 2006-12-02 17:11:58

I haven't eaten for more than 80 years.

DarK]N[exuS China. December 02 2006 17:13. Posts 1441

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On December 02 2006 17:10 Smurg wrote:

Show nested quote +

You could've just said: "He mad at sometin dat dint even happen n says lots o words about it no point in readin it cos no one said nuffin about nuffin."

That'd be clear-cut and concise.

It would also be illiterate...

Anyways perhaps the circumlocutious nature of my post was a commentary on his. I guess taking it to the structurally comparative level is pointless on a forum.

Last edit: 2006-12-02 17:14:11

Where joy exists despair will always beckon.

Smurg Scotland. December 02 2006 17:18. Posts 3808

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I guess words exist to be used, but there is a different time and place to use the word circumlocutious...and that's in a few days. Although to a certain extent it's nice when people use longer words...I think eventually vocabularies will suffer...or at least 'true' words will be lost.

I'd say we all have thousands of words we know but never utilise. Bizarre!

It's markedly obvious you're suffering from sesquipedalian excess...unless you were intending that as a joke in your last post. It's just not very subtle. ^_^

p.s. I love how sesquipedalian means 'long word'.

Last edit: 2006-12-02 17:28:04

I haven't eaten for more than 80 years.

Liquid`Nazgul Administrator December 02 2006 17:24.

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+ Show Spoiler +

for theories, in particular who are jon snows parents

Knickknack United States. December 02 2006 17:24. Posts 1187

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Well, someone got rather worked up. Ok, perhaps not ignorant. But, I see it as silly to use hyperbole in the first place. Oh, I don't know, how about lets consider things as they actually are. And if he is against reading a page and a half he should just not read it, rather then criticize him for writing a page and a half on what the thread starter asked people to write about. Yes, and I find the fact that the poster typed "fuck reading that shit" is a rather revealing about the poster, which is what I was trying to get across. It a page and a half, not a big deal. The flaming I won't bother to respond to.

I disagree with recommending SOT on the other hand, but perhaps another time. David Gemmel I like as well. Recommend if you want a rather quick read and heroic fantasy.

Thanks Naz, have not seen that.

Last edit: 2006-12-02 17:34:15

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DarK]N[exuS China. December 02 2006 17:33. Posts 1441

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On December 02 2006 17:18 Smurg wrote:
I guess words exist to be used, but there is a different time and place to use the word circumlocutious...and that's in a few days. Although to a certain extent it's nice when people use longer words...I think eventually vocabularies will suffer...or at least 'true' words will be lost.

I'd say we all have thousands of words we know but never utilise. Bizarre!

It's markedly obvious you're suffering from sesquipedalian excess...unless you were intending that as a joke in your last post. It's just not very subtle. ^_^

p.s. I love how sesquipedalian means 'long word'.

Are you messing with me? We both seem to be playing this "say other things without saying them" game so I can't tell anymore. I just explained that my use of "sesquipedalian" words was purposeful. I'd argue against the loss of "true" words however...simple words are the farthest from true possible. More complex words, and words with deeper meanings and shades of grey were created just for the purpose of a truer meaning. Despair, anguish, dejection, despondency, forlornness, misery, pain: all have subtly different meanings, yet have an overall relationship to one another. They have far more "true" meanings than if I were to use the word "bad."

On December 02 2006 17:24 Knickknack wrote:
I quite disagree with recommending SOT on the other hand, but perhaps another time. David Gemmel I like as well. Recommend if you want a rather quick read and heroic fantasy.

That's perfectly fine. I have no problem with people liking different things. What I had a problem with (as evidenced earlier) is when people have different tastes, and one seems to think that theirs is somehow better and proceeds to put down the other person.

Last edit: 2006-12-02 17:35:23

Where joy exists despair will always beckon.

Ceril Sweden. December 02 2006 17:51. Posts 1343

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fire & ice is so bloody good, its nothing like the rest of cuddly fantasy out there =)

Just because you can now store where everyone was and is, what they like, what they fear who they talk to and who they love. It does not mean we should so spy upon our fellow man in a dystopia far worse then 1984