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 BlueIris Korea (South). December 12 2006 17:57. Posts 107 | Profile # |
PvZ, a concept that is considered somewhat unbalanced, is very hard for any beginning novice to learn or any mediocre player to master. Although I disagree with the PvZ imbalance, I would like to put out some words of advice.
PvZ takes intuition, experience, and a knack for aggressive play. This isn't something you learn from watching replays, it is something you gain from playing the game. With this in mind, I thought that I would start a forum topic that would help people become more familiar with the PvZ matchup. Although I had just stated that PvZ is learned through countless hours of experience, I remember a time, approx 2 years ago, when 강민.. or Nal_Ra literally taught me the timings of lurkers, mutalisks, and basically how to counter builds (including builds such as 4 hatch-hydra). I'd like to pass down this knowledge with experiences of my own.
Note: From this point on, this guide will be a long read… For most good players this post may seem like common sense, but you’d be surprised how many people do not know the basics of pvz.
PvZ is the most feared match-up for most, if not all, protoss players. Before I enter the more complicated parts of this post, I’d like to mention the importance of being calm and confident. After learning the basics of PvZ, the second most important concept is learning to stay calm. If you are facing a zerg player and are frantically worrying about “What build is he going to use next?” “He just has mass hydras, but what happens if he switches to lurker/hydra build?” “Protoss is so imbalanced in this matchup, how am I going to win?”, most likely you will be staying inside your base scared of all of his different tech builds. Doing this will only allow the zerg to obtain uncontested map control, rather, play more aggressively trying your best to take any advantage, whether this is a surprise dark templar attack on expos, or frequent high templar drops, protoss should do everything possible to take the momentum. The worst thing to do in PvZ is to actually believe that PvZ is imbalanced. This will only lower your confidence. The trick I use when playing against a zerg is that I tell myself that ZvP is imbalanced in favor of the protoss. Confidence to push out, contest expos, and the ability to stay calm enough to act intelligently rather than frantically is the key to any PvZ, no rather, to anything in life.
__Taking Expansions__
A common mistake made by protoss is that they believe that an early/mid game expo should be taken while playing defensively. “Keep your units near your expo so that even if he tries to attack it, I will protect it” that is the mindset of many protoss players. If a protoss player tries to stay inside his base securing his expo, a good zerg with match your expo, with one or more of his own and have the time to sufficiently gain an advantage. Instead, when taking an expo, use your force not to defend, but to attack or harass. This does not mean that you mindlessly send out your units into the 5 sunken colonies + unit defense that the zerg has created. Rather, either harass his force or attack a newly created expansion, this forces the zerg to play defensively, while giving you the time to create your expansion fortified with 4-5 cannons and a couple high templars. The attack force works as a distraction in which the zerg will focus on your attack, giving you plenty of time to complete your nexus. This attack, if lucky may even allow you to attack unprotected hatcheries and drones. This attack working in conjunction with your expansion provides the needed distraction and may even give you an early-mid-game advantage as you inflict mediocre damage to zerg economy and unit count.
.__Guessing Zerg Tech/Build__
Many players often wonder, why is it that protoss professionals can almost guess the tech build of the zerg opponent. Rather, a zerg’s actions are a very strong telltale sign of their build. Although some guessing is still involved, proper scouting provides sufficient information to almost guess the zerg’s build. This is done through either probe or corsair. However, a good zerg is good when he forces the protoss to eventually guess the build that he is planning to use.
Questions to ask:
How many hatcheries does zerg have?
When is he getting his gas?
What tech is he going? Hydra den up? Evolution chamber?
How many drones?
Of course, this requires good probe micro. If you are going to go early 1 sair stargate, keep probe alive until the sair is built.
Scenarios…
Zerg is dangerous from early game all the way to the end game. The most overlooked scouting principle is looking at the number of drones. Make sure that you see the general count of drones, if you see that the zerg is investing money on early drone, it means that that money is not going into unit production. If you see that the zerg has a low drone count, it means that they are using that money for early unit production, meaning you should watch out for any early game rush.
If a zerg is going two hatcheries, with early gas up aiming for early lair, you should check to see if a den is around. *If however, your probe dies before you are able to see the den or spire, prepare for both for it is certain that he is going to tech. In the zerg viewpoint, he is sacrificing an economy for early tech. If a protoss can block the initial attack, he will be in a great advantage.
A zerg going 3 hatcheries, this is the most common zerg build that is seen today. However, this means that a zerg will have a later tech than a 2 hatchery build. Simply put, you are given the chance to prepare later for mutas or lurkers. However, putting your guard down is a very bad idea…the three hatch build may delay earlier tech, but it provides that delayed tech in large numbers while also having a strong economy that will lead to a solid mid-game. Seeing a three hatchery with gas and lair points to a tech, but if you see hatcheries with later gas without lair, make sure that you are prepared for a hydra only build.
These are some examples of a number of scenarios. There are a large number of things to look for within a zerg, although it would become a long list when trying to explain each and every one. Even so, it is still very difficult to guess PvZ builds. This, in my opinion, is the reason why many people state that PvZ is unbalanced. The majority of games will force the protoss to prepare for both muta, lurk, and even hydralisks. This becomes quite tiresome, but a protoss who successfully guesses and defends against the build that zerg uses, will have the momentum to either prepare for midgame with an expansion, counter the expansions of zerg, or if the situation calls for it, to counter the zerg main itself.
__Countering Zerg Tech__
The Zerg Tech consists a focus on either Mutalisks, Lurkers, Cracklings (into the feared Ultra/ling), and Hydralisks.
These tactics are used by a large number of pros and are specific to their ZvP style.
Countering Mutalisks—
If you find that the zerg is teching into a spire, a protoss has a number of choices. Assuming that you are attempting a build other than a reaver/sair build, an archon with the help of 1-3 cannons at main and expo, should take care of a mutalisk harass. If he continues to increase his mutalisk numbers, increase your archon numbers as well as the number of templars. Otherwise, you should be in a good situation, if you have successfully countered the mutas without much damage to your economy.
Countering Lurkers—
The countering of Lurkers has been a controversial topic. When I notice that zerg is going into a fast lurker build, I build a robotics facilities as soon as I possibly can (Edit: Yes, normally after a templar archives). If you were unable to stop the initial lurker attack, I spend some time investing into a good combination of zeal/goon/templar. This is in hopes of being able to break through the contain and having a large force. If your containment break has good timing, you are able to inflict sufficient damage as a zerg would be spending money on a tech to (usu.) to Ultra/ling rather than working in unit production.
My style of PvZ is very, very aggressive. When I build up a sufficient force, I do not stay in my base, rather, I push out early and put early pressure on zerg expansions, forcing the zerg to use their lurkers as defense rather than a containment. Even without an observer, small harassment to lurkers as you retreat and attack unburrowed lurkers, provides enough time for your observer to come and turn the momentum to your favor.
Countering Cracklings---
Cracklings are a telltale sign that the zerg is attemping to tech into a powerful and earlier 3-3 Ultraling. My personal counter for this build is a well rounded combination of zeal/archon/temp. Even so, it is very hard to micro against 100 psi worth of zerglings. Well placed stormed and good archon/zeal micro will allow you to succeed. Good upgrades on your part should allow you to efficiently counter the situation. This strategy to me, is like killing two birds with one stone as I am reducing ling numbers, harassing expos, while at the same time producing a well rounded number of archons in order to counter the Ultra/ling situation.
Countering Only Hydra—
Only Hydra is a very common situation and requires very good micro on the part of protoss. In this case, I enter a combination of zealots/temps and sometimes even adding a few goons or archons into the mix. The only suggestion to this is well placed storms, while also scouting to make sure that zerg expos are kept to a minimal level.
Countering the Infamous Ultra/Ling---
There are a lot of strategies that can be used against this deadly build… among these include
1) Dark Templar/Corsair—This strategy focuses on zerg’s inability to protect against air allowing you to pick off overlords by killing zerg psi and providing the freedom of using the darktemplar’s cloak
2) Zealot/Archon--- The most common strategy against the Ultra/ling situation. This strategy uses zealots as units to take hits from numerous for zerglings while the archons (and a few High templars) provide the artillery. This situation is a macro-based situation. Whoever wins these Ultra/ling vs Archon/Zealot battles will be able to momentarily hold map control giving about a minute of freedom to take out expos.
3) Archon/Dark Archon--- Although used in a number of famous pro-games, it has remained one of the least popular counters against the ultra/ling situation. Although I have used this strategy quite successfully numerous times, it is a very risky build. The reasoning behind this strategy is to use the Dark Archon’s Maelstorm ability to momentarily freeze parts of the zerg Ultra/ling force, while archons and a few templars take out the zerg army. This is very reliant on the ability to prepare for this build early and to have sufficient Dark archons with good mana count.
With this, I would like to conclude this topic… for my hands hurt from typing such a long post. I would like to ask the TL-net community to comment, and if possible, correct any mistakes or add onto the topics that are within the post. I hope this thread can be of help to a number of players ^^. Thanks for taking the time to read to this thread.
-BlueIrisLast edit: 2007-10-19 03:47:17 |
| | Play like your first, Train like your second |
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 Rotodyne United States. December 12 2006 17:58. Posts 1179 | Profile # |
Wow, thank you very much
This should be put in the recommended strategy thread, it's Nal_ra's knowledge  Last edit: 2006-12-12 18:02:04 |
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 skyglow1 New Zealand. December 12 2006 18:11. Posts 3933 | Profile Blog # |
Hahaha I love this line:
After learning the basics of PvZ, the second most important concept is learning to stay calm.
It makes it sound like protoss players are facing a disaster situation or something lol.
Great post. I don't even play PvZ but I read through it Last edit: 2006-12-12 18:12:29 |
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 TopGear United Kingdom. December 12 2006 18:13. Posts 760 | Profile # |
Not bad at all.
I overlook a lot of these points, nice to know the theory behind people's actions. |
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 Pressure December 12 2006 18:24. Posts 7286 | Profile Blog # |
the archon + cannons against mutas seems weird
the gas required for even one archon is just immense >_< |
| | (21:55:29) <02rushz0rz> i am a fuckin newb |
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| BlueIris Korea (South). December 12 2006 18:30. Posts 107 | Profile # |
On December 12 2006 18:24 Pressure wrote:
the archon + cannons against mutas seems weird
the gas required for even one archon is just immense >_<
Most protoss players attempt to an early tech into citadel of adun, into a templar archives. If you are already in this situation, one archon worth 100 minerals and 300 gas is a small exchange for protecting your probes from taking damage that may amount to 500+ minerals from dead probes. Archons also kill muta in 4-5 hits. Against zerg players that stack mutas, one hit from one archon amoounts to about 30 damage to a approximately 9 mutalisks. That is 270 damage from one strike. Some games, an archon may even kill 9 mutalisks due to a micro mistake.
Cannons also provide stationary defense against mutalisks giving your archons enough time to reach the mutalisks before any probe damage can be inflicted. A zerg usually invests about 900/900 minerals/gas on mutalisks, this is not counting the tech required to achieve a spire. 400 minerals and 300 gas (cannon + archon cost) is a cost efficient way to deal with the very valuable mutalisks.Last edit: 2006-12-12 18:32:28 |
| | Play like your first, Train like your second |
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 zulu_nation8 China. December 12 2006 18:44. Posts 14910 | Profile Blog # |
I think you need to specifiy situations, you can't say, when you expo, attack and harass instead of defending, the only times when zerg would expo is if they can protect it, either with lurkers or muta/ling. The only times when you could attack and expo is if zerg is down or you're sending in a zealot army while mutalisks are harassing your base, even then it would be risky. Most tosses don't have problems with what to do once mutas or lurkers are out, it's guessing and reacting that's hard. A lot of zergs will lay down both a den and spire and there's usually no way you can guess what he's going until you see a lurker egg or spire. Even then zerg can go lurker to muta which usually catches toss offguard.
It's also not a good idea to build a robo asap once you see lurkers unless the asap is after templars and storm. Getting robo before storm is a bad idea vs good zergs because you will die easily to a muta switch.
Fast cracklings means zerg is not dropping and is not switching to mutas and in most cases gets very late spire. It doesn't mean for certain that ultras is following up unless the zerg has a good economy. Usually when zerg gets really fast hive he doesn't have much gas for ultras unless he really skimped on lurkers.
When toss sees two hatch tech the first thing he should do is think about attacking and making the zerg waste larvas on zerglings or sunken up. An extra sunken can delay whatever tech zerg is going for by a lot. No zerg will go 2 hatch lurkers unless it's vs fe maybe, for two hatch muta usually you'll need a lot of sairs to defend.
Also if you see lurkers and come out to stay aggressive, you can very easily get countered and if zerg gets a lurker in your nat before cannons are done warping, your nexus is gone. Whenever 1 base toss comes out to expand, protect your expansion in all cases, zerglings are much more mobile than zealot goon.
You did a good job covering what you should do once you see a certain unit, but in pvz you have to anticipate because nine times out of ten, once you see something it's usually way too late to react and you'll already be down. Last edit: 2006-12-12 18:49:35 |
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| zulu_nation8 China. December 12 2006 18:47. Posts 14910 | Profile Blog # |
| also i advise against one base citadel to archive to expand without stargate especially on luna because mass zerglings or 3 hatch hydra or any build that gets mass units early will kill the build 100% assuming zerg has an ovie near by that doesn't die. Toss just won't have enough units to expand, dt is the only thing you can use to protect your warping nexus. |
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 GaG[SharKy] New Zealand. December 12 2006 19:12. Posts 221 | Profile # |
| nice post. very helpful considering im a p user and have troubles more so with this matchup than any other. good job |
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| Seraphim United States. December 12 2006 21:31. Posts 4382 | Profile Blog # | |
| | Hermes | Bisu[Shield] Fighting~! |
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 Leath Canada. December 12 2006 21:50. Posts 1568 | Profile Blog # |
Nice post man. Thanks.
I just switched from T to random, Im learning P and Z now, and this has been helpful to me. Because thought we learn the P set, we also understand some of the Z choices =)
PS: I had just gone Ultra/lings vs Dt/sairs and lost. Now I know why lol |
| | http://www.sacredseasons.com/play/?refUsername=Leath |
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 Gokey United States. December 12 2006 23:12. Posts 2599 | Profile # | |
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| LaZyGaMeR Canada. December 13 2006 00:48. Posts 4 | Profile # |
| Against Crackling/Ultra Reaver/Shuttle could be devestating provided u have some sairs to go scourge picking |
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 5HITCOMBO Japan. December 13 2006 03:38. Posts 2239 | Profile # |
| There are some other important PvZ basics, such as always staying +1 attack ahead of the Zerg's Carapace, because zealots then take out zerglings in two hits instead of three, keeping a probe with your zealots before your +1 attack upgrade to deal that 5 damage to a ling (making it two hits again, instead of three), etc. It's very important not to let the zerg dictate the flow of upgrades. |
| | I live in perpetual fear of terrorists and studio gangsters |
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 Liquid`Jinro Sweden. December 13 2006 06:35. Posts 29700 | Profile Blog # |
Very good post, you and I seem to think the exact same things about PvZ (I've been fighting for the 'pvz isn't imbalanced' side for years and written several enormous pvz posts with similiar content to yours).
Nice to have you here!
I disagree about the 1-3 cannons if muta tho - 1 cannon and an archon probably can't even beat 4 or 5 mutas, they'll just kill it then run around hitting your probes.
3 is really the minimum if he really invests in mutas.
And also I kind of like to get storm instead of more archons whenever possible, as a hydra switch or him taking out your cannons with your archons stumbling through a probe line.. is very annoying.
(I also like sair openings for this reason, since you can camp it on top of your nexus with cannons around it ;p).
And expanding without aggression is OK IMO - if the expo is very early, the act of expanding is aggression enough. However, if it's not super early then I agree that it's good to put some pressure while your nexus is warping. |
| tell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey
Formerly FrozenArbiter |
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 pyrogenetix China. December 13 2006 07:07. Posts 4204 | Profile Blog # |
oh ok so thats why i suck at pvz
i can never stay calm |
| | Yea that looks just like Kang Min... amazing game sense... and uses mind games well, but has the micro of a washed up progamer. |
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| LastWish December 13 2006 07:11. Posts 1640 | Profile Blog # |
Exactly, I think storm+cannon is a lot better than Archon, because he is slow and his range is smaller than mutas.
Also I can't say I've ever seen Archons+DA in a solid play.
If you have a replay or some ground to support it please post, otherwise I think reaver is still better(cheaper, but needs shuttle to be mobile) option to go.
Watching Draco's, Nal_ra's replays make me think you should have pointed more value on storms vs Ultra+Ling.
Your army composition till then is mostly zeal+goon+temp and you should focus on storming(even though your zealot/goons if necessary) in order to kill all possible lings and keep storming ultras to minimise their HP.
Zeal+Archon is doomed to good flank and/or nasty defiler's swarm, without a good storm usage of course. |
| | Our last perfect verse is still the same old song : "Oh Christ how I hate what I have become..." |
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| psychosis Sweden. December 13 2006 07:46. Posts 89 | Profile # |
I find it handy to have some Darch Archons around. It seem to me they scare Zerg players a bit and they do often, in one way or another, try to focus fire on it to eliminate the threat. Even if they succeed the maelstorm should have already been cast.
I'm kinda new to PvZ, but I find the match up fun. Only TvT is funnier.
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| BlueIris Korea (South). December 13 2006 07:53. Posts 107 | Profile # |
As I said, I am grateful for this comment and I appreciate the feedback. However, I would like to disagree with some of the points made by zulu for purpose of clarification and disscusion. I would like to put up some rebuttals.
I think you need to specifiy situations, you can't say, when you expo, attack and harass instead of defending, the only times when zerg would expo is if they can protect it, either with lurkers or muta/ling. The only times when you could attack and expo is if zerg is down or you're sending in a zealot army while mutalisks are harassing your base, even then it would be risky. Most tosses don't have problems with what to do once mutas or lurkers are out, it's guessing and reacting that's hard. A lot of zergs will lay down both a den and spire and there's usually no way you can guess what he's going until you see a lurker egg or spire. Even then zerg can go lurker to muta which usually catches toss offguard.
I would like to apologize for not being able to clarify in deep detail about people learning to react. But I believe that learning to react cannot be taught in words, it is something done with instinct, and taught through experience. Most of these tactics and strategies work only with certain builds, my focus was built on a FE build, or a 2 gate zealot build, where you have a decent force to have a decent harass, etc.
Well, as I stated before, a perfect scout is the best situation a protoss can ask for. It is true that the majority of games will force the protoss to "guess" the zerg build and I will not argue against that point. But I made sure to state that in my post, if you would kindly read that section again ^^.
Your rebuttal to my "harass instead of defend tactic" actually supports my argument. Yes, the zerg will only make expos that it can protect. Thats exactly what you want. Your only aim for harass is to bother the zerg long enough to set up 4-5 cannons and a few temps... a solid defense for early game. If you send an attack to an expo, "the only times when zerg would expo is if they can protect it, either with lurkers or muta/ling", wouldn't that mean that the zerg is sending their units back to stop YOUR harrass rather than using their units to harass you? That is exactly what you want. You want the zerg to send back their units, providing you the time to set up and maintain any early/mid game expo. What you really want is something to keep zerg busy, if one dark templar will do the job, then that’s even better for you. If you would like, I can provide a number of replays of either my pvz or a large number of pro games to help clarify. Although a player should pick and chose when to play aggressively and non-aggressively (based on situation), I tend to play a bit more aggressively due to my style.
Also if you see lurkers and come out to stay aggressive, you can very easily get countered and if zerg gets a lurker in your nat before cannons are done warping, your nexus is gone. Whenever 1 base toss comes out to expand, protect your expansion in all cases, zerglings are much more mobile than zealot goon.
I would also like to rebut this argument. If you had a sufficient force, assuming that you either are aiming for late 1st expansion, or looking for enough time for that 2nd expansion after a FE build, your force would be able to create quite a commotion to a zerg player. Assuming that a zerg player decided to be smart and place one lurker at your base, I would think that a protoss player would be equally smart enough to take care of that lurker with 2 storms or 1storm + zealot hit, etc…
Other than this, I would like to thank you for your addon to this post for everything that I have not rebutted, I believe is a very good addition to this post and I thank you for that. ^^
Note: A lot of my tactics are based on the FE build, and may not work on all situations ><
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France. December 13 2006 03:31. Posts 1952