I've played maybe 300 2v2 games with my partner; we just play Public on East, some inners in X17, and we played on ICCUP for awhile, maybe 60 games there. We're about C+-B- 2v2 ICCUP level but we don't really KNOW anything or think of anything, we just BS our way through most games and generally I "carry" the game (I am the Terran). We’re both pretty good 1v1ers (C+ & B+) but when it comes to 2v2 we’re kind of clueless (by which I mean we know the game and know all the thing you should know, but when it comes to applying it to 2v2 it doesn't seem to work out). Half the games I win are because my ally dies as a kind of “decoy” and I can beat them 2on1 (which I know is often the goal of a TZ team, especially in ZZ).
So what I'm looking for are some effective ideas versus PZ, ZZ, and TZ. I think we've got beating TP down pretty well since that's pretty easy with TZ.
TZ vs ZP.
My partner asked Mondragon and told me that he was told we should ling + MM against a PZ team that goes goons. Well, we do that, and sometimes it works, but most of the time it doesn’t. Goon micro rapes my marines until I have rine range, and by the time I have rine range he has a ton of goons. If his ally matches mine in lings, it seems that we tend to lose the fights anyways. So are we just doing it wrong? Also, what do we do when the P and Z just turtle up with sunkens/cannons and tech/expo, at which point templars and DTs rape my MM and the zerg has probably beaten my ally’s mutalisk timing since he didn’t make as many lings, only enough to hold his ramp + sunkens? Do we just expo immediately, or what? Because we've then go all these units and we can't do anything with them, and they're useless against the next level of tech (e.g. lings vs mutas), so they're not very safe to expand with. We lose a lot of games when we try to rush with mass lings + mm or vults or whatever and just get owned at the ramp by a major turtle, and then we’re far behind. At that point it seems too late anyways; they’ve got mutas vs my zerg partner. The thing is like we’ll see the zerg is teching faster, but he only has 1 sunken on ramp, so we rush him with mass lings, but suddenly he throws down 3 in a panic as he sees us coming and he has 4 sunkens on ramp, so we can’t get in. In retrospect, if you see 1 sunken on the ramp, should my ally just say screw it and match the opponent zerg’s tech ASAP even though it appears we could break the ramp easily? I know when they're teching they're more vulnerable, and it's our "window of opportunity" to rush him, but in this case if he just throws down some more sunkens its impossible to get in and while he might mine fewer minerals than my ally, he will have mutas much faster and that mobility will be a major advantage.
OH and why do all threads say it is suicide to ramp hatch TZ vs PZ? We've played a lot of people and it usually works ok, my ally will 9 pool ramp hatch or whatever, pool is first no matter what, and usually they can't do anything about it, cause I don't see how the P is going to 9/10 gate like the other threads say they will if they see the ramp hatch unless they intended to do that anyways in which case it wouldn't be a response.
I’ve actually found we have more success vs PZ when I go vultures, and my ally lings, but I haven’t really paid a whole lot of attention to it so I may have just been playing noobs in the games it worked in (I should work on paying attention for the purpose of actually learning).
Vs TZ I generally try to go goliaths first. Liath drop + mutas works well on the opponent zerg generally. Liaths on the ground works well too in conjunction with my ally’s mutas. I read in the threads that at least several people who replied think that going wraiths first TZ vs TZ is the strongest opening. I also read several people advocating a vult first build TZ vs TZ but that has been very weak in my experience. I don’t really ever go MM vs TZ…ever. Is that a bad thing?
Any tips on how to effectively keep our army in the middle/flanking/moving? How do we scout, use a ling at each choke I guess? I read all the time that we have to keep their armies from linking up and so forth but it seems the times that we try to do that it fails.
Also any general tips on expanding? I tend to expand as soon as possible when I feel that it’s ok to do so, but my ally always expands waaaaaaay too late IMO. Should we generally expand after winning a fight, or if we win a fight try to macro harder and take that advantage to completion ASAP?
Also, though I wrote this from a Terran perspective, any advice for the Zerg would be appreciated as well.
I guess that we just kind of blunder through the early game. Once it reaches mid-game and my economy is going, I’m fine, because I know what to do.
Thanks in advance for any replies.
*please also read my post farther down the page, about 15 replies in
Last edit: 2007-11-09 03:45:59
God is cruel; sometimes he makes us live.
Hypnosis United States. November 07 2007 08:07. Posts 2061
Ok, im just going to say this first: I and my ally are generally P/Z but when we play T/Z we seem to win almost every game. TZ vs TZ: The zerg will want to tech asap with minimal lings (just enough to hold off a ling attack from the other zerg, so 1-2 sunkens and a decent amount of lings. The amount comes with experience.) The tech will be mutas, and it is a very good idea to get +1 attack or +1 defense for air units. If you sense any type of all in 3 hatch ling from the zerg opponent it is a good idea to have a sunken in your main to fall back on. (this is VERY situational so don't do it every game just in case...). The terran is going to want to get a 3 fac goliath build going which plays off the heavy defense style the zerg will be implementing. It is very strong because of the insane anti-air that golaiths pack and the very fast attack rate that they have to own lings. Muta/ling and Goliaths is a very nice counter to mutaling and goons because goliaths are so much better than goons when it comes to fighting off lings. That is that basic unit combination for TZ vs TZ. The terran is going to want to expand as soon as he has a sizable force of goliaths mainly because of the mobile nature of muta/ling.
I will update this later.
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Diggity United States. November 07 2007 08:14. Posts 784
I honestly dont have a ton of experience with 2v2 gameplay.
However I have seen the following have infinite success:
Zerg: ling harass into hydralisk Terran: medic (to support hydra) directly into tank w/ siege.
The ling harass provides enough time for the terran to quickly go medic. This also opens up comsat just in case one of the opponents went lurker/wraith/dt.
Hydralisk/medic is formidable against all other infantry groupings of equivalent type. Hydralisks are sturdier against marine medic, and pretty much chew up all protoss infantry with minimal micro management until psi storm/speed upgraded zealots.
However usually you can end the match long before speed upgrade or psi storm is even an option with the siege tank back up.
Then you have a very strong combination of hydralisks to cover ground/air and siege tanks to finish the rest off.
This is a bit more demanding on the zerg player, but with practice it becomes pretty natural.
Zerg 12 lings (split to a 6-6 ling harass) ---> hydras, (then think about lair tech to lurks/speed upgraded ols just in case)
terran ---> maybe 1 marine to block, but otherwise 4 medics directly to 2 factory tanks. Be sure to get a comsat down.
It is the zergs responsibility to manage both hydras (protecting tanks) and lings (delaying attacks from ally into other bases). It helps if the terran plants random tanks in siege mode around the map after he gets 1-2 tanks inside his first opponents main.
First of all this slows down reinforcements and secondly it protects against counter attacks.
Anyhow try it out and let me know what you think.
Side note: If you are going up against dual zerg, just zergling/medic marine rush.
Last edit: 2007-11-07 08:21:33
HonkHonkBeep China. November 07 2007 08:30. Posts 353
Thanks Hypnosis for the reply, I did know most of that already, and Diggity, going hydra + medic seems like a very risky and not too good build; have you got any reps I might see of this being pulled off? You'll have 1/2 the number of units as your opponents..and tank + hydra won't work so well against goon + mass lings or lings + leg zealot or whatever.
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crazie-penguin United States. November 07 2007 08:33. Posts 1248
Muta/ling will keep the hydra user contained so badly its not even funny. 2v2 with opposing Zerg players is usually going to end up with the zerg playing it like a ZvZ. Lings into mutas and low eco style.
In ZT vs ZT 9pool is a really good build, because your ally needs to tech to golies or w/e and 9pool allows for protection. Mostly because the opponent usually is doing the same thing. Unless the opposing zerg is doing something not 9pool, that allows the zerg to go harass the terran a little and slow down their tech.
Diggity United States. November 07 2007 08:37. Posts 784
To be honest it can be really map dependant. You need space to maneuver basically.
But you rarely need to worry about leg zealot as generally you have succeeded or failed by then and I have seen this do extremely well against goon/ling as long as you kill the lings first then focus on the dragoons.
In goon/ling combos its hard to coordinate attacks where the lings arent boxed out. Even if the players are coordinated enough to do this, usually if you manage to take down the initial ling line, reinforcements trickle in through the dragoons making for easy take downs.
With the goon ling combo you also dont have to worry about the goon focus fire on the medics as much as they are boxed out by the lings for forward advance.
But again I suggest trying it once or twice to see if you like it and if not then just ignore me *shrug
I cannot emphasize enough how vunerable this leaves the terran early. Basically the zerg player needs to invest heavily into micro through this entire build, but I was more accustom to that sort of thing so once again *shrug.
Last edit: 2007-11-07 08:53:11
vGl-CoW Belgium. November 07 2007 10:35. Posts 8270
TZ vs PZ: The main thing here is: 9 pool. Why? Because it will be impossible for the other Z to get a hatch on his ramp. He will be forced to hatch in main, making him really vulnerable to m&m attacks. If he wants to live, he's pretty much going to have to invest heavily into sunks, which will be a heavy hit to his eco. This will allow your ally to be ahead in terms of tech, or at least be on even footing. In this scenario, it's usually wise for the terran to start switching to mech around the time he gets his exp running, seeing as how m&m will be progressively weaker vs pretty much anything protoss will throw at you, and your ally should be able to at least keep up with the other Z.
I always use this 9 pool build, which I stole off Mondragon: 9 pool, build drone, build extractor, build overlord, build drone, let your drones mine 100 gas and take them back off, you will have 3 larvae ready precisely when your overlord and pool finish (it's absolutely beautiful) and you'll be able to put your second hatch down around 14 supply.
Again, be sure to put all the pressure you can on the Z with lings and eventually m&m. Keep tabs on the P so when he tries to help, your ally can abuse speedling mobility to either rape his forces en route or sneak into P's base to wreck some havoc.
TZ vs TZ: Yeah, muta/ling and goliaths are pretty much the answer here. Here I also think it's a good idea for Z to 9 pool and have T go factory tech ASAP and build a few vultures to assist your ally in both pressure and defense before going for goliaths. Also, be sure to throw a few tanks into the mix to hurt the other T and start throwing more tanks in there around the time your exp is running because again, your ally should be about equal to the other Z and won't need a lot of your goliaths to support him.
A wraith build (especially combined with 9 pool) can be a pretty good idea if you really want to wail on the Z early game. If they don't see it coming, he's definitely going to be behind your ally's economy and tech.
TZ vs ZZ: You said it. Your ally is a punching bag until you're strong enough to move out and mop everything up. You're a lot more valuable than your ally here, so be sure to keep yourself in good condition. Your ally should be focusing on surviving rather than going out and dealing damage - the longer he can survive, the more valuable he becomes again.
General advice for your ally: Your mutalisks are by far the most important thing you have. Don't sacrifice them, ever. This means avoiding any muta vs muta combat unless you have the upper hand or are able to dish out a quick volley, or unless you're in the company of your T ally's forces (where the other Z would be annihilated should he try to fight back). Don't engage the other opponents anti-air forces with your mutalisks unless you really have to, unless you're dealing a very damaging blow or again, unless you're hovering over your ally's units (in this case, pull back immediately if the opponent is focusing your mutalisks instead of your ally's units).
The main reason here is that mutalisks become a much bigger threat once they're a sizable force, capable for example of razing mains and expands when your opponents' forces are out. Another important reason is trying to stay ahead of your opponent's mutalisk numbers: always keep your mutalisks safe so the second your opponents waste a few mutalisks on your ally's forces, you'll have the upper hand and that means having aerial control and making the other Z completely powerless.
Wow, I wrote a shitload.
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Superiorwolf United States. November 07 2007 10:54. Posts 5203
I have a question about taking the ramp with a 9 hat 9 pool build, it's safe versus a 9 pool from another team because your creep will be out already to make a sunk, generally you don't need a sunk anyways because the 9 hat 9 pool timing is about the same as a 12 pool, but you get to immediately make 8 lings after - from then on it is very simple to macro much harder than the opponent, either going fast tech and drones, sunking ramp, or going tons of lings because you have such an early ahtch and can make another one to.
Generally I go 9 pool/12 pool, just wondering on how that build works because it seems to work very well versus TZ (not as well vs PZ though)
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noobienoob United States. November 07 2007 12:38. Posts 1173
On November 07 2007 10:35 vGl-CoW wrote: TZ vs PZ: Again, be sure to put all the pressure you can on the Z with lings and eventually m&m. Keep tabs on the P so when he tries to help, your ally can abuse speedling mobility to either rape his forces en route or sneak into P's base to wreck some havoc.
This is the way I see TZ vs. PZ:
1.TZ puts early ling/marine pressure/contain on the enemy Z, forcing him to: a. sunken up. and/or b. rely on partner for back-up.
If the enemy Protoss player moves out of his base to help his ally, you run in and fuck up his base. In general, early Protoss units are just too slow and lacking in numbers to both defend and reinforce his ally at the same time(Zealots are too slow and Dragoons get surrounded by speedlings like lol), so unless his zealot/probe micro is gosu or he has cannons, if he moves out his base is going to be fucked by speedlings. Also, if the enemy toss goes to attack as a counter to your containing the enemy zerg, a early toss attack is easily stopped by a Bunker/Rines and Sunk/drone/lings.
If the toss doesn't move out, either the Zerg player is going to be forced to make a lot of sunkens, or you can easily run him over with ling/MM. At the same time, he can't move out until he's gotten mutas, since you've contained him. You should be able to finish the zerg off with muta's (your zerg ally plays from here as if it were a 1on1 ZvZ, and he has the advantage) and the Terran containing with MM/teching to Siege tanks, while transitioning into vulture/tank to take out the Toss. Meanwhile both of you can freely expand since the enemy can't freely move around the map, provided you have speedlings as scouts (Toss units too immobile, Z is contained). From my experience, I don't think PZ can really do anything except anticipate this, defense up and tech straight to mutas/templar tech as fast as possible, and then outplay the TZ.
I think team games are always about taking out the zerg player for some reason I can't put my finger on. I guess it's because zerg's main use are for their aggressiveness, and if you put pressure on them, they have to go defensive, and non-aggressive zerg = lose because the lack of minerals/gas in 2v2.
Iono, just my 2 cents.
Last edit: 2007-11-07 15:33:04
Hypnosis United States. November 07 2007 13:09. Posts 2061
TZ vs ZZ Terran is going to be the one pulling the big moves in this one, the zerg just needs to survive. My friend actually thought of this strategy: Zerg is going to want to make a second hatch asap then a pool asap after the hatch. So it goes 12 hatch next to main hatch then 11 pool. NO GAS YET. make a sunken in a well placed spot then pump lings. get gas after the sunken always. the key is to have a second hatch up really fast so you can wall off openings that the zergs will try to get to your sunk through. from here just tech directly to mutas and throw down 1-2 more sunkens. drone whore after their first attack. Meanwhile the terran guy will be 3 rax hardcore mm with +1 attack going on the ebay. when the terran gets range for his mm, move out and attack on with mutaling and mm. if the zerg survives and they do shit like double 9 pool or any type of cheese they are totally fucked. if the both expo your fine. just make sure that the zerg reads the other zergs well so he doesnt overcompensate with like 3 sunks for no reason. if one expos and one cliffs get gas asap after pool.
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Bond(i2) Canada. November 07 2007 16:00. Posts 922
okkayyy heres my brief guide TZ v TZ Yes, wraith is a viable opening. The key to this build is to pressure the other zerg so much that your ally gets mutas way before him, or forces him to spore/den. Once your ally is ahead in muta, he can go ahead and slow the terran as you follow up with expo/3 fac.
opening vult ling can be good vs the zerg opponent, as long as you get your 3rd fac down fast and get armory, addons are not needed, as your partner is going mutas so opposing tanks will be ineffective vs you. After this, expo -> play accordingly 5-6 fac 1-2 addon w/e you're good at.
m&m is a bad choice 90% of the time just because you'll be behind the terran. I mean by the time you get meds, he'll have tanks, vults or gold to counter your forces and the zerg just has to hat ramp to neutralize it. If you intend to launch a timing attack (vs the terran obv) you can 2 rax -> 18 gas then fac. you should move out with about 6 rines and attack the terran with your ally.
TZ vs PZ The reason people say hatch ramp is suicide is because if the opposing zerg gets a superior air force, he can either make you waste money on 2 spores or just kill the ramp hat. This is especially true when the protoss makes a couple of sairs, it's either say good bye to economy or good bye to game.
I think Ling vulture is the best counter because as terran, you can easily make the transition into mid game vs the toss and your vult ling combo at the beginning will shatter ling goon. Once you have map control (when you've mined up their chokes) get gols + expo and boom your ahead of your opponents economically (assuming your partner is equal to the opposing zerg). From here your partner should be flying around picking off hts and remaining equal or greater to the other zerg and with your combined mobility, you should double team one of the opposition as soon as they move out, you cant let them come together until you have sufficient forces. After that it's just keeping up with macro, adding in tanks, taking additional expos etc.
The m n m opening does work here. if you're having trouble with goons, i suggest you 3 rax before academy. When you get medics, your army will be too powerful for goons alone to stop, and your pump will keep your army at a sufficient size, as opposed to 2 rax. If they decide to cannon ramp, sunk ramp. Yes, just expo or you can opt for fast dropship and drop rines on the zerg with your partners mutas.
Yeah, don't let your partner go 12 hat 11 pool ever plz. if one of your opponents goes 9 pool, your partner is fucked, let alone dual 9 pool. i think the best build is 12 pool 12 hat with sunk -> tech or lings depending on oppnents(if they both expo-> go mass lings, if both go fast tech-> tech, if both mass linging->good sunk position + ling only. as terran you should 3 rax before acad (such a great build ^_^) and hope for the best.
If you have any specific questions I'll be glad to answer them via pm, this was all kinda brief
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Bond(i2) Canada. November 07 2007 16:01. Posts 922
1. In TZ vs TZ, it's been mentioned that Terran opening with wraiths ais a very effective build. What should you do AGAINST this build. My bro and I recently started TZ 2v2ing, and we're having massive trouble in TZvsTZ. Basically, me and the opponent Z will be on par. Then a lone wraith flies in while my spire is about 50% done. I try to buy time taking one out and switching them around, but in the end it's just too much damage to me.
Should the T in a TZ team ALWAYS open with 2 fact 1 port? And if not, what can the Z do to prevent the T from harrassing him too much, while staying on par with the opponent Z.
A few theories I have would be if my partner went 2 fac or 3 fac w/o starport, he should get a 3/4 vults to prevent the opponent z from moving out with lings, and send 3 rines to my base for anti-air support. Or I just build a spore in my base and drone up since my partner's vultures will keep my opponent's lings at bay.
TZ vs ZP
How viable is a early fac build for the T to open with? It seems almost all TZ teams now open with 2 rax... especially in Proleague (though that may be because the maps make that build the best choice).
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HonkHonkBeep China. November 07 2007 16:24. Posts 353
Thanks everyone for the advice and tips, they are very helpful especially Cow Bond NoobieNoob and Hypnosis.
Here's the deal, tonight my partner and I were experimenting because we decided that my partner is just not good enough with Zerg to stand up to decent teams; he's almost always behind the opposing zerg; it's very unbalanced because he is a P player in 1v1 and I am a T player; those are the races we know the best, but he played Z in our 2:2 team so that we didn't lack a zerg. So we played some PZ tonight, with me as the Z. His P is not as good as my T, but my Z is much much better than his Z. So in this case we have a decent Z and a decent P rather than a crappy Z and a much better T.
So my question is, we've played like 300 games TZ, we know each other well and work well together as a team, do you think we should swap to PZ, or stick with TZ? He's kinda a low APM player and multitasking muta and macro and all that is very difficult for him. I personally am most comfortable with playing T because I can usually dominate the competition if we get to midgame but maybe at higher levels that won't work so well. This is a hard question to answer since the answer is probably just "do what works best for you" but are there any convincing statistics or etc that I should be aware of?
Anyways we'll probably try out a lot of this advice as a TZ team and see how that goes and if it's ok we'll stick to the TZ team.
Last edit: 2007-11-07 16:56:24
God is cruel; sometimes he makes us live.
Live2Win Korea (South). November 07 2007 16:28. Posts 6433
We considered it but we just seem to get totally raped by any team with a zerg as PT, except ZZ, in which case we find that turtling super hard and then moving out when I've got enough MM works fairly well (but we aren't exactly playing pro ZZ teams).
Having a Zerg will just make life easier. You'll rarely get easy wins with a TP team.
I think ZP is a stronger team than ZT, but that's just my opinion. And yes, the Zerg player usually has to have more game sense that the P/T player to make the team work. He needs to know when to cut/make Drones, when to power and when to tech. None of this really concerns the P/T player in my experience, so I would put your strong player as Zerg.
I don't play 2v2 much, so take my opinion lightly.
On November 07 2007 10:35 vGl-CoW wrote: I'm a fairly experienced 2v2 Z player.
TZ vs PZ: The main thing here is: 9 pool. Why? it will be impossible for the other Z to get a hatch on his ramp. He will be forced to hatch in main, making him really vulnerable to m&m attacks. If he wants to live, he's pretty much going to have to invest heavily into sunks, which will be a heavy hit to his eco.This will allow your ally to be ahead in terms of tech, or at least be on even footing.
this is just lol do u play public 2v2 or some skilled z/p team ?
9pool dies 90% times vs z/p u 9p other z 9p u fight on middle on other side p rushing terran or containing him with cannons 10 12 gate 21pylon 21 forge toss save 450 minerals for 3 cannons and terr blocked until he got tenk, and if he doesnt know that cannons are infront than it's gg u will be fucked soon 9 zeal + 16 lings + 2 or 3 drones for offensive sunkens will rape you 90% times except u made +5/6 sunken but then u have like 4 or 5 drones left ..
Last edit: 2007-11-08 01:48:15
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GongKyuckTerran Croatia. November 08 2007 01:59. Posts 1096
zvt vs zvt 7-8 rax + 6/7/8/9 p works super fine on small maps or letz say both teams play straight terran go fact port fact fact and match wraith with other terran letz say both z open with 9p speed ling and they are fighting somewhere on map the trick is that terran who kills more opponent overlords or harass drones usually wins the game if u are on same side then terran should send 3-4 marines to zerg for that first wraith so there is not damage on drones or overlords in zerg main also put 2-3 scv's around terran base that u see when other t going drops, few scourges that killed few drops can turn game so much in your favour
Ultras di Spalato, Etre et durer
IntoTheWow is awesome. November 08 2007 02:04. Posts 31041