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| lOvOlUNiMEDiA United States. February 10 2008 06:45. Posts 632 | Profile Blog # |
How much of an advantage does a random player have against a player who has chosen his race?
When I first started playing 1v1 temple games in 2000 my first 'teacher' explained the reason to choose a race clearly --- "Uni," he said, "choosing a race is like tripling your practice time."
In relation to professional starcraft I had two thoughts: One, from what I can tell the margin of error is small, so going random seems hardly feasible against such tough competition. However, and this is the second point, there is SOME advantage to going random (isn't there?) and if the margin of error is small than perhaps that small advantage could be worth it.
One last note -- does anyone know strong foreign players that go random? Doesn't testie random?
Thanks guys |
| | To say that I'm missing the point, you would first have to show that such work can have a point. |
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 GoodLuck! United States. February 10 2008 06:52. Posts 41 | Profile # |
Testie does in fact random, and he was considered the #1 Foreigner at one point even while using random.
However, he did more matchup picking than randoming in his days, exploiting a players weakest m/u is always good, but if a player doesn't have one, you have to rely on random.
The advantage of random is the paranoia factor, the fact that your opponent MUST do a potentially disadvantage taking build order to save himself from the possible cheese.
As a Terran, the Terran must always opt for gas, since you have a 66% chance of getting T/P, doing so he will then stay mechanic, and if he gets unlucky and you are zerg, he can just 2 factory vulture expo and play mech or try to switch into something like a tank rush.
It really depends on alot of situations, Random allows you to do some of the following
RvT -> ZvT : 4pool/5pool, the T only has 1barracks and is making gas, a higher chance that you win.
RvP -> ZvP : This game transitions into normal 1base P vs Z, however until he scouts you or something, he will getting dragoon before second or even first zealot, meaning zergling breaks are very strong.
RvZ -> TvZ : He is forced to either 12pool / 11hatch or 1base zerg, either way an FE oriented playstyle from you will immediately put him behind.
It really stands on the opponent on what to do, he either takes the economical disadvantage or he tries to luck out. For economical disadvantages, see Boxer vs Tempest? I can't recall perfectly, anyway the Protoss scouts at 5th probe because he thinks boxer will cheese, anyway, it ultimately costs him the game or so it was said.
Imagine having that as a random player, HOWEVER, if the player somehow finds your race before his tech even has to take place, if he is the better player, he will usually win, since you must train 9 m/'u's possibly 10 (RvR) whereas he only practices 3 and then transitions into a 4th.
Sometimes its good, sometimes its not, but if I'm correct, R is banned in some leagues. |
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| ShaLLoW[baY] Canada. February 10 2008 06:54. Posts 10557 | Profile Blog # |
Testie racepicks as far as I know, but he plays random from time to time.
Professionals random in 2v2 in an effort to get a ZZ team, which is raep instawin.
I think the only advantage to randoming is your opponent doesn't know what he's preparing for until he scouts you, from my experience when people random vs me they always 5pool/8rax/proxy gate  |
| | what liquid use in fuck? (sAviOr for life) | |
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| WSchultz United States. February 10 2008 06:59. Posts 2 | Profile # |
| For a long time I've thought blizzard should come out with a "Not X" option for race. That means that if you want to play either Protoss or Terran but not zerg you can pick "Not Zerg" -- You'd still be at the disadvantage of practicing 6 MU's -- but you'd still get some advantage of leaving your opponent guessing. |
| | Both reason as a source of knowledge and rationality as a practical ideal are today under attack. B. Blanshard 1962 |
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 FakeSteve[TPR] Valhalla. February 10 2008 07:04. Posts 17062 | Profile Blog # |
On February 10 2008 06:45 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:
How much of an advantage does a random player have against a player who has chosen his race?
When I first started playing 1v1 temple games in 2000 my first 'teacher' explained the reason to choose a race clearly --- "Uni," he said, "choosing a race is like tripling your practice time."
In relation to professional starcraft I had two thoughts: One, from what I can tell the margin of error is small, so going random seems hardly feasible against such tough competition. However, and this is the second point, there is SOME advantage to going random (isn't there?) and if the margin of error is small than perhaps that small advantage could be worth it.
One last note -- does anyone know strong foreign players that go random? Doesn't testie random?
Thanks guys
there isnt much advantage
and pros don't random because being strong at 9 matchups is a lot harder than being strong at 3 |
| | Resident League of Legends & Street Fighter guru - " I know alot of words including tabernacle." - FuDDx ~~~ vrok, newest FakeSteve Fan Club member (55)! |
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| hku February 10 2008 07:25. Posts 164 | Profile Blog # |
| I've personally always wondered why there aren't groups of gamers that pick one match up for every opponent race. ie, only plays tvz, pvt, and zvp. |
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| chicken` Germany. February 10 2008 07:39. Posts 3477 | Profile # |
"me t"
- "k me z"
"ok me p, no tvz"
- "no z against p, me t, vp go!"
"me z against t, zvt gogo"
- "no way! me p v z!"
"k me t" .. fuck im confused; you get the idea. thats why! |
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| GoodLuck! United States. February 10 2008 08:07. Posts 41 | Profile # |
On February 10 2008 07:39 chicken` wrote:
"me t"
- "k me z"
"ok me p, no tvz"
- "no z against p, me t, vp go!"
"me z against t, zvt gogo"
- "no way! me p v z!"
"k me t" .. fuck im confused; you get the idea. thats why!
If I'm correct didn't that happen to PJ in a tournament?
The result is that both Random.
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| YoUr_KiLLeR United States. February 10 2008 08:08. Posts 3420 | Profile Blog # |
On February 10 2008 07:25 hku wrote:
I've personally always wondered why there aren't groups of gamers that pick one match up for every opponent race. ie, only plays tvz, pvt, and zvp.
there are people who do this. trek was a well-known race picker, and i think he played tvz pvt zvp. |
| | what the fuck do you have to say for yourself now you protoss jackass can you retaliate in any way |
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| Dromar United States. February 10 2008 10:34. Posts 1777 | Profile Blog # |
On February 10 2008 06:52 GoodLuck! wrote:
Sometimes its good, sometimes its not, but if I'm correct, R is banned in some leagues.
Clearly. R is way imba!
Seriously though, I think the advantages are small to none, although race picking could potentially be helpful.
For a while I was TvP, PvT, ZvZ, but when I played zerg/terran, I would try to build assimilators, and my hotkeys would generally just cause me problems. On the upside, I would learn the intricacies of one matchup really well, and ZvZ is IMO relatively simple to understand. Now I just play Zerg.
Anyway, whenever I choose random, I tell my opponent my race, and whenever my opponent goes random, I ask him his race and he usually tells me, negating any advantage you're asking about.Last edit: 2008-02-10 10:36:28 |
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| 1t2t3t4t5taw Andorra. February 10 2008 11:10. Posts 173 | Profile Blog # |
On February 10 2008 10:34 Dromar wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 10 2008 06:52 GoodLuck! wrote:
Sometimes its good, sometimes its not, but if I'm correct, R is banned in some leagues.
Clearly. R is way imba! Seriously though, I think the advantages are small to none, although race picking could potentially be helpful. For a while I was TvP, PvT, ZvZ, but when I played zerg/terran, I would try to build assimilators, and my hotkeys would generally just cause me problems. On the upside, I would learn the intricacies of one matchup really well, and ZvZ is IMO relatively simple to understand. Now I just play Zerg. Anyway, whenever I choose random, I tell my opponent my race, and whenever my opponent goes random, I ask him his race and he usually tells me, negating any advantage you're asking about.
A guy told me his race was Terran on ICCUP after he randomed...I didn't believe him. He was Zerg. |
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| ShaLLoW[baY] Canada. February 10 2008 11:20. Posts 10557 | Profile Blog # |
On February 10 2008 11:10 1t2t3t4t5taw wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 10 2008 10:34 Dromar wrote:
On February 10 2008 06:52 GoodLuck! wrote:
Sometimes its good, sometimes its not, but if I'm correct, R is banned in some leagues.
Clearly. R is way imba! Seriously though, I think the advantages are small to none, although race picking could potentially be helpful. For a while I was TvP, PvT, ZvZ, but when I played zerg/terran, I would try to build assimilators, and my hotkeys would generally just cause me problems. On the upside, I would learn the intricacies of one matchup really well, and ZvZ is IMO relatively simple to understand. Now I just play Zerg. Anyway, whenever I choose random, I tell my opponent my race, and whenever my opponent goes random, I ask him his race and he usually tells me, negating any advantage you're asking about.
A guy told me his race was Terran on ICCUP after he randomed...I didn't believe him. He was Zerg.
Want one? |
| | what liquid use in fuck? (sAviOr for life) | |
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| il0seonpurpose Korea (South). February 10 2008 11:31. Posts 5636 | Profile Blog # |
On February 10 2008 06:45 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:
When I first started playing 1v1 temple games in 2000 my first 'teacher' explained the reason to choose a race clearly --- "Uni," he said, "choosing a race is like tripling your practice time."
Thanks guys
choosing a race does not triple practice time, not choosing a race does. |
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| Ilikestarcraft United States. February 10 2008 12:32. Posts 16583 | Profile Blog # |
On February 10 2008 11:10 1t2t3t4t5taw wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 10 2008 10:34 Dromar wrote:
On February 10 2008 06:52 GoodLuck! wrote:
Sometimes its good, sometimes its not, but if I'm correct, R is banned in some leagues.
Clearly. R is way imba! Seriously though, I think the advantages are small to none, although race picking could potentially be helpful. For a while I was TvP, PvT, ZvZ, but when I played zerg/terran, I would try to build assimilators, and my hotkeys would generally just cause me problems. On the upside, I would learn the intricacies of one matchup really well, and ZvZ is IMO relatively simple to understand. Now I just play Zerg. Anyway, whenever I choose random, I tell my opponent my race, and whenever my opponent goes random, I ask him his race and he usually tells me, negating any advantage you're asking about.
A guy told me his race was Terran on ICCUP after he randomed...I didn't believe him. He was Zerg.
Pressure proxied gated me on blue storm so next game where we rvr i 5 pooled and told him i was toss and said i was zerg after he teched I love you pressure ;; |
| | Isn't it good Norwegian wood? | |
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| Equinox_kr United States. February 10 2008 13:16. Posts 7391 | Profile Blog # |
On February 10 2008 11:20 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 10 2008 11:10 1t2t3t4t5taw wrote:
On February 10 2008 10:34 Dromar wrote:
On February 10 2008 06:52 GoodLuck! wrote:
Sometimes its good, sometimes its not, but if I'm correct, R is banned in some leagues.
Clearly. R is way imba! Seriously though, I think the advantages are small to none, although race picking could potentially be helpful. For a while I was TvP, PvT, ZvZ, but when I played zerg/terran, I would try to build assimilators, and my hotkeys would generally just cause me problems. On the upside, I would learn the intricacies of one matchup really well, and ZvZ is IMO relatively simple to understand. Now I just play Zerg. Anyway, whenever I choose random, I tell my opponent my race, and whenever my opponent goes random, I ask him his race and he usually tells me, negating any advantage you're asking about.
A guy told me his race was Terran on ICCUP after he randomed...I didn't believe him. He was Zerg.
Want one?
HAHAHAHA I just laughed out loud! |
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| liosama Australia. February 10 2008 14:13. Posts 843 | Profile Blog # |
| i think its bm not to say what race you are if you go R |
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| Dromar United States. February 10 2008 14:17. Posts 1777 | Profile Blog # |
On February 10 2008 14:13 liosama wrote:
i think its bm not to say what race you are if you go R
I'd say so, although it's not exactly written in stone, so some people might think differently. But I don't hold it against them.
However, it's undeniably bm to lie about your race when you pick R. |
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| Chef February 10 2008 14:28. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
I play random, and IMO, it's not worth the BM you have to put up from people who hate playing against random.
The biggest advantage of going random is that it's pretty much impossible for anyone to cheese you.
Basically... If you already have a race you like, stick with it. The only reason I play random is because I felt inspired by StarCraft Memories, and Pimpest Plays movies, and didn't want to choose just one race's units.
i think its bm not to say what race you are if you go R
That's retarded. If I learn 3 races, 9 match ups, I should have the right to the advantage going random gives. If I get rZvZ though, I usually say cause there's no point in playing a 4pool ezgg (but that's only because I'm polite, if I cared about winning [money involved?] I would feel completely justified saying nothing. Don't like it? Play random too).
choosing a race does not triple practice time, not choosing a race does.
First, you're being a nit, second, you're wrong. If you practice for one hour, and have 3 races, practicing them equally gives you 20 minutes each. If you choose just one race, you practice for the whole hour, therefore it's like you've practiced 3x as much (because time is finite).Last edit: 2008-02-10 14:33:25 |
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| Aphelion United States. February 10 2008 14:38. Posts 2719 | Profile Blog # |
On February 10 2008 14:13 liosama wrote:
i think its bm to pick race at last moment while pretending to go R
FixedLast edit: 2008-02-10 14:38:17 |
| | But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss... |
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| Dromar United States. February 10 2008 14:50. Posts 1777 | Profile Blog # |
On February 10 2008 14:38 Aphelion wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 10 2008 14:13 liosama wrote:
i think its bm to pick race at last moment while pretending to go R
Fixed
Lol. Yeah.
I always keep an eye on that. From my experience, they usually choose Zerg, and so far about 1/2 of these instances have been Zerg min hackers. |
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