On April 20 2009 07:45 peidongyang wrote: if ur having trouble stick with protoss
1a2a3a4a
i swear,
Be careful, posts like this can get you banned. It's a form of trolling, and a very bad one at that.
On topic: Someone said that a non-random player will easily take out a random player due to more practice with the same 3 mus, but you're overlooking the fact that by playing PvZ for instance, you're also learning how the P mechanics work, and you'll know what to do when you're playing ZvP, you'll understand the game a lot better.
Also, playing all matchups is very fun. It takes you out of the whole monotony surrounding the same builds and the same maps vs the same race. But yeah, people shouldn't be blamed for not wanting to play vs random. If I wanna play only ZvZ I will only play ZvZ. Who cares why or if my other mus will suck? It's my choice. It's a game, I play whatever is fun for me.
On April 19 2009 08:28 Kyadytim wrote:About the 3 MUs vs 9 MUs argument: A player choosing a race learns 5 matchups. The three for his/her race (i.e. ZvZ, ZvT, and ZvP), and also the two for the other race against his race (i.e. TvZ and PvZ) so that he/she can read the opponent's plan from minimal scouting information and know the necessary timings. The not-X random player would learn 6 matchups by this logic.
Knowing a little bit about their build is nothing like playing the race. A random player has to be able to actually do the build properly and effectively. Any small mistakes in a build can make you lose on iccup. Most players overcome this by playing the same race and developing muscle memory to perform their build optimally. A random player has an exponentially harder time because of all the different builds to use for nine matchups.
Besides getting good at performing builds by muscle memory for nine matchups, a random player needs to be able to choose the optimal build for the situation. Hell, most people can't even do that at C level in one matchup.
A race chooser never needs to be able to actually do the build for the other race. This means that they do not need to know "five matchups." You don't need to be good at microing every unit for the other races. You also don't need to learn the drastically different macro of zerg vs terran/protoss. It simply isn't a fair comparison.
29 fps United States. April 20 2009 10:49. Posts 4912
On April 20 2009 10:22 Snowden wrote: if playing T means you need to know TvZ, TvT, TvP, PvT, ZvT then presumably playing T or Z means you need to know ZvZ, TvT, ZvP, ZvT, TvP, TvZ, PvZ, PvT
Yeah. That 6 is a typo. I was aiming for 8. >>
On April 20 2009 10:42 Durak wrote:Knowing a little bit about their build is nothing like playing the race. A random player has to be able to actually do the build properly and effectively. Any small mistakes in a build can make you lose on iccup. Most players overcome this by playing the same race and developing muscle memory to perform their build optimally. A random player has an exponentially harder time because of all the different builds to use for nine matchups.
Besides getting good at performing builds by muscle memory for nine matchups, a random player needs to be able to choose the optimal build for the situation. Hell, most people can't even do that at C level in one matchup.
A race chooser never needs to be able to actually do the build for the other race. This means that they do not need to know "five matchups." You don't need to be good at microing every unit for the other races. You also don't need to learn the drastically different macro of zerg vs terran/protoss. It simply isn't a fair comparison.
I disagree. To be able to read the enemy builds perfectly, one needs to know them as well as one knows one's own. I'll agree that you don't need to know the macro, but understanding why and how Zerg macro is different is the difference in doing something against a Zerg player because you read it was a good idea and doing it because it's a good idea and knowing why it's a good idea and what sort of advantages it will give you. I.E. The early pressure in TvZ to force the construction of sunken colonies. Also, knowing how the other race's micro works can let you know what sort of actions the other player will have trouble responding to. Like one can be an average random player by knowing a one or two MUs for each race and cheesing the rest, one can be an average player of a single race by knowing 3 MUs and just playing by rote. The best players of both sorts know every MU that can feature in a game with them from both sides.
On April 20 2009 10:24 CubEdIn wrote:Also, playing all matchups is very fun. It takes you out of the whole monotony surrounding the same builds and the same maps vs the same race. But yeah, people shouldn't be blamed for not wanting to play vs random. If I wanna play only ZvZ I will only play ZvZ. Who cares why or if my other mus will suck? It's my choice. It's a game, I play whatever is fun for me.
Yeah, it's fun. I said it in my initial post. It's worth saying again. Starcraft is a game. It was created to entertain people. If someone enjoys mutalisk micro, let them play ZvZ all the time. If someone is not having fun playing, he/she should ask himself/herself why he/she is playing.
I wasn't saying that knowing how your enemies race works isn't a good idea. I'm simply saying that knowing the basics of how their race works is no where near as hard as playing the race. Therefore, a race chooser doesn't really know 5 matchups in comparison to the random's 9. It's completely different. Playing random is a lot harder.
In the last game of a Bo5, Grrr... picks random. Why? What advantage did he think he would gain from it?
Probably something like "If I get protoss now I win". 33% chance of an awesome advantage. BUt builds weren't as refined back then though and the maps were wierd so maybe not.
Jaedong asks you 'how do you practice and what mentality do you keep during your games?' Flash: Well, I just practice really hard. And during games I think "LOL U CANT BEAT ME" keke
Kyadytim United States. April 20 2009 16:31. Posts 248
Ok. First off, you have to place it in context. They didn't have much in the way of precise build orders to the extent we have them today.
Next, more context. The previous four matches. The map for game one is no in the tlpd. A link is included in the Game 1 summary. The rest of the maps are available in the tlpd map section.
Game 1 took place on an island map with a sort of back natural. It's Space Odyssey. You can find a map image here. Grrr... lost that game, do to a combination of bad luck (H.O.T-Forever scouted him right off) and missing a massive drop sneaking into his main. Mostly the latter. From there, he played a long game from behind, and lost to a hive tech Zerg air force. This provides an offset for his win in game 3 when it came down to an air game.
Game 2 took place on Deep Purple. It's a Twilight copy of hunters where the 3 and 9 mains are not connected to their naturals, and the start locations are removed. Grrr... spawned at 12 with H.O.T at 1, and won with a 2 gate build with an eventual 3rd gate against 12 hatch 11 pool to 3 hatch lings. Had H.O.T opened with 9-pool speed, he probably would have lost, and they both probably knew it. I'm not sure how or why H.O.T lost to this, anyway, because he had an overlord over the gates more or less the entire game, having scouted in the correct direction again. Nothing really relevant out of this game, except that Grrr... knew that he could have lost that game easily.
Game 3 took place on Glacial Epcoh. This is an odd map, where the 12 and 3 starts are on one island and the 6 and 9 are on a second. H.O.T-Forever started at 9 and Grrr... at 6. H.O.T went for pool first, followed by a hatch at the only ground accessible gas for both players, halfway between them. With some early ling pressure, H.O.T-Forever delayed long enough to get some sunken colonies up at the ramp to hold his second gas. H.O.T-Forever lost that game when he morphed his mutalisks into guardians while Grrr... was building up a massive Corsair fleet. This is another one where I really can't follow what H.O.T-Forever was thinking. At less than 10 minutes into the game, he has 2 gas and a hive against a 1 gas Protoss, and has elected to play air. I suspect that it was a combination of his victory in the first game and a desire to keep Grrr... to just the one gas, but he didn't even have a Hydralisk Den when his Guardians died, leaving his Overlords more or less defenseless. Grrr...'s follow-up attack with Zealots funded by his mineral only dealt incredible damage to H.O.T-Forever's base. While I don't see the outcome of this game having any direct effect on Grrr...'s decision, it does play a role in the analysis as a contrast.
Game 4 was about the opposite of game 2. It was on the tiny map Dark Stone, and H.O.T-Forever learned from his previous mistake and crushed Grrr... with 9 pool speed. This leads directly into the problem facing Grrr... on game 5.
Finally, the game of interest. The map for game 5 is Blaze. The key features of this map are the lack of a narrow spot to hold off early lings, a really, really distant natural, and the huge distance between bases on the ground. The first two are reasons why Grrr... would want to avoid playing Protoss. While he would easily have the two Zealots needed to hold a ramp against lings on this map before the lings arrived, there is no ramp. The lings would have free access to his base, and H.O.T-Forever proved in game 4 that he was up to winning with ling micro in that situation. Second, if he played some sort of early forge to defend, or managed to stop the lings by somehow out microing H.O.T-Forever, H.O.T-Forever could easily put his second hatch at Grrr...'s natural and hold it with sunkens, containing Grrr... in a really bad way. Unlike Glacial Epoch, there is no mineral + gas island, which means that an air expansion would not be as helpful as taking another main was in game 3, while there would be plenty of other gas for H.O.T-Forever to grab on the ground. So, Grrr... really, really doesn't want to play Protoss against H.O.T-Forever on this map. He has the options of picking Zerg, picking Terran, or playing Random. As I don't know what Grrr...'s relative skill was with Zerg, his play with Terran was pretty good. Maybe he had a 1-shot cheese build in mind if he was Zerg. Here are the reasons for for picking Random specifically. The scouting distance on ground is huge, and Grrr... only had a 1 in 3 chance of being spotted by H.O.T-Forever's first Overlord. If he's not scouted, he has a further chance of not being scouted by the drone scout at the first start location, which would prevent H.O.T-Forever from knowing his race for a really, really long time. Also, the start locations have enough straight line distance that even if the Overlord went to the right place first, H.O.T-Forever would have already committed to an initial build pattern.
On to the game itself. Grrr... was scouted by H.O.T-Forever's first overlord, but note that he did not send out a scout at anywhere near normal timing, starting a second barracks and depot first, doing his best to keep his race secret. His bad luck here was offset by good luck in H.O.T-Forever's build decision. H.O.T-Forever opted for 9 pool gas, which could happily go into 9 pool speed or fast lair against Zerg or Protoss. Unfortunately for H.O.T-Forever, 9 pool gas has never been an excellent build against Terran. While Grrr... may still have won easily, playing Random really handed the game to him.
It's hard to believe that was an OSL finals though. With the huge show we've grown accustomed to ><
Jaedong asks you 'how do you practice and what mentality do you keep during your games?' Flash: Well, I just practice really hard. And during games I think "LOL U CANT BEAT ME" keke
Impervious Canada. April 21 2009 04:44. Posts 3485
On April 20 2009 16:31 Kyadytim wrote: Ok. First off, you have to place it in context. They didn't have much in the way of precise build orders to the extent we have them today.
No, they didn't have precise build orders. This meant the game came down to who understood the match-up better, and micromanagement. To understand the match-up, you have to play the match-up. By playing more than one race, you have to understand more match-ups, meaning your skill level with the one you are playing is worse than it could have been (which seems obvious enough that I shouldn't have to explain why).
The advantage is that your opponent is playing against the unknown until they see what race you are.
It is a risk/reward situation for the person who chooses random. On a map like that one, the person who picks random does have a signifigant advantage (large ground distance), but that is not the case for all maps.
While Grrr... may still have won easily, playing Random really handed the game to him.
No, Random did not hand him the game. Random giving him terran + the map + the build that his opponent chose handed him the game.
This was a game played when the common game was a 1-base vs a 1-base. A FE would have probably won for either player, but that didn't exist yet.
The map is also rather terran favoured -> nowhere to flank = big push potential. That is how terran play works. In small numbers, terran units are the weakest of all of the races. Once terran gets a handful of units, their army gets more powerful. Lots of units makes them incredibly powerful. The other races do not force this kind of play.
This was also before mutalisk harassment was as big as it is now. If H.O.T-Forever did something like that, with all the cliff edges on the map, it would have been a very different game.
The game has evolved since then. BO's are streamlined, timing has been nearly perfected. Yes, a random player has a slight early advantage in the game, but why are there virtually no pros nowadays who use it? If it was such an advantage, why wouldn't every game be RvR? That's because it's not an advantage at higher levels (and, frankly, not an advantage in lower levels either).
Use some common sense. If it was an advantage, it would be more visible and successful in the professional leagues.
If you are a student at the University of Ottawa, email join@uostarcraft.com! ~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Kyadytim United States. April 21 2009 16:45. Posts 248
I was defending his decision to play random, not attacking it. Even that wasn't the goal of the post, though. All I was doing there was trying to get inside of Grrr...'s head to give a plausible reason for why he chose Random in that game after playing Protoss in the previous 4. The comment about the lack of precise build orders was mentioning the lack of the single solid advantage of playing Random that exists right now.
Anyway, the two of the three things you mentioned are direct followups from Grrr... playing random He got a good race for the map and his opponent had to choose a build order to commit to before discovering his race. There was a little luck as well, because H.O.T-Forever had a 2/3 chance of his build order being fine, and Grrr... hit the third option.
PobTheCad Australia. April 21 2009 18:05. Posts 869
do you remember which game grr (p) vs a T on gorky island where grr had only 1 pylon left and carriers and managed to win? i believe it was a WCG match , perhaps in 2003?
Once again back is the incredible!
PobTheCad Australia. April 21 2009 18:13. Posts 869
On April 21 2009 04:44 lMPERVlOUS wrote: The game has evolved since then. BO's are streamlined, timing has been nearly perfected. Yes, a random player has a slight early advantage in the game, but why are there virtually no pros nowadays who use it? If it was such an advantage, why wouldn't every game be RvR? That's because it's not an advantage at higher levels (and, frankly, not an advantage in lower levels either).
Use some common sense. If it was an advantage, it would be more visible and successful in the professional leagues.
eh , in my opinion if you play the same game for 10-11 years you'd get bored with playing the same race some people never wanted to be a 'progamer' , they just play for fun the most fun is learning all races , not necessarily to a progamer level
On April 21 2009 16:45 Kyadytim wrote: The comment about the lack of precise build orders was mentioning the lack of the single solid advantage of playing Random that exists right now.
Yes, but the key to a build order is the ability to execute it as close to perfect as possible. A player who does not practice it as much as they could have will not be as good at it as they could be. By practicing 3 races, they are unable to practice the build order as much as possible, meaning they will not be as good at it as possible. Their skill in any individual match-up will be weaker than what it would be if they stuck to a single race. This is offset (not completely balanced) by the fact that they play with an advantage at the beginning of the game.
It is not like the situation is a "ZOMG RANDOM WINZ ALL!!!!1!!!ONE!!!" situation.
He got a good race for the map and his opponent had to choose a build order to commit to before discovering his race. There was a little luck as well, because H.O.T-Forever had a 2/3 chance of his build order being fine, and Grrr... hit the third option.
Grrr... got a good race for the map, because the strategies for dealing with a terran push on a map like that weren't properly developed yet. Muta harass would have been huge. 12 hatch would have been safe against any race he could have faced.
Yes, he had a 2/3 chance. Instead of modifying his BO to suit all 3 races, he chose to go for the 2/3 chance, and it backfired. That was not caused by his opponent going random, that was a decision he made.
If you are a student at the University of Ottawa, email join@uostarcraft.com! ~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Pyro]v[aniac United States. April 22 2009 09:37. Posts 147
nowadays with more and more terrans using mech against zerg, i dont think TvR would really be that bad. ZvR isn't THAT bad either (if you choose 12 pool) because your not ridiculously behind in eco and its not a bad build vs zerg either (althought maybe not the optimal build either).
i think mostly just protoss players would be whining because they cant forge-expand.
PobTheCad Australia. April 22 2009 11:22. Posts 869
On April 22 2009 09:37 Pyro]v[aniac wrote: nowadays with more and more terrans using mech against zerg, i dont think TvR would really be that bad. ZvR isn't THAT bad either (if you choose 12 pool) because your not ridiculously behind in eco and its not a bad build vs zerg either (althought maybe not the optimal build either).
i think mostly just protoss players would be whining because they cant forge-expand.
they can't but toss has other safer builds they can use after reading the iccup thread on random i really believe that starcraft has become home to a number of robot players that cannot adapt to different situations just my opinion
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Eljota123 Denmark. July 27 2012 16:44. Posts 6
