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 Chill Canada. August 03 2008 04:11. Posts 25262 | Profile Blog # |
On August 03 2008 02:15 Boona wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote:
Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit?
I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous. |
| | http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=275302¤tpage=225#4490 |  |
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| fusionsdf Canada. August 03 2008 04:51. Posts 15354 | Profile Blog # |
um
how about its progamers vs other progamers?
I mean its sort of understood that powerrank values OSL gold more than MSL gold, so it seems weird to suddenly obsess over defnite lines and distinctions
If you want to value it less because teams put less focus on it then fine. But to say its the equivalent of some random league just because its not kespa sanctioned is ridiculous. |
| | SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran." | |
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| TheTyranid Russian Federation. August 03 2008 05:15. Posts 4333 | Profile Blog # |
On August 03 2008 04:11 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 03 2008 02:15 Boona wrote:
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote:
Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit? I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
Fuck Kespa. The GSL is a great tournament. The line shoul be drawn at Kespa sanctioned tourneys, GSL, and offline prelims (for cases of top players not qualifying for leagues; example- Jaedong not making ODT.) |
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| Avidkeystamper United States. August 03 2008 05:56. Posts 8551 | Profile Blog # |
On August 02 2008 18:18 Tinithor wrote:
I put flash in front of JD cause Flash is still seeded for 2 leagues. Luxury i just think has been playing better than July, and how low do you want best to be?
Those seeds weren't because of his performance this month. This month, I would think Jaedong>Flash. |
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 KwarK United Kingdom. August 03 2008 07:51. Posts 21021 | Profile Blog # |
On August 03 2008 04:11 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 03 2008 02:15 Boona wrote:
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote:
Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit? I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
How about "it's StarCraft so it's relevant" and "there's money on the line so they're trying"? I believe I actually said that the money made the games much more legitimate in my first post, something you completely ignored when you parodied my post. |
| | The angels have the phone box | |
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| Chill Canada. August 03 2008 09:10. Posts 25262 | Profile Blog # |
On August 03 2008 07:51 Kwark wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 03 2008 04:11 Chill wrote:
On August 03 2008 02:15 Boona wrote:
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote:
Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit? I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
How about "it's StarCraft so it's relevant" and "there's money on the line so they're trying"? I believe I actually said that the money made the games much more legitimate in my first post, something you completely ignored when you parodied my post.
So if there's money on the line it's legitimate? Skins is legitimate now? Make up some criteria and defend it, you're just including whatever you feel like based on feel. |
| | http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=275302¤tpage=225#4490 | |
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| fusionsdf Canada. August 03 2008 09:14. Posts 15354 | Profile Blog # |
if flash beat jaedong 7 times in a row in a skins match you're telling me that wouldnt change how you evaluate their strength at the moment?
Obviously if someone like devil wins over bestgod thats not going to get either in the powerrank. But if they played in the ro16 of the osl it wouldnt help them either.
Its ok to value it less. But it is still 2 progamers playing each other in a league or tournament for money.Last edit: 2008-08-03 09:15:46 |
| | SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran." | |
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| Dazed_Spy Canada. August 03 2008 12:41. Posts 1683 | Profile Blog # |
On August 03 2008 04:11 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 03 2008 02:15 Boona wrote:
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote:
Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit? I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
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| Juicyfruit Canada. August 03 2008 16:13. Posts 3490 | Profile # |
You can't really count GSL because, unfortunately, not all pro's were given a chance to participate.
This means we run into problems:
- if you reward players for winning games in the GSI, you'd also have to penalize the ones who loses the games. Unfortunately, one would then argue that the losers simply wasn't trying his very best since he isn't as motivated for the GSL as he would be for OSL/MSL (who knows...)
- OR you could count only select games in the GSL where it is obvious both players played well and the win was well deserved. However, this is like giving bonus points to players who got a chance to participate in the GSL, which is unfair to those whose teams forbade them from entering.
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| | Do not hate me because I am better than you. There are people better than me as well; go hate them. | |
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| Sunyveil United States. August 03 2008 16:39. Posts 3765 | Profile Blog # |
On August 03 2008 09:10 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 03 2008 07:51 Kwark wrote:
On August 03 2008 04:11 Chill wrote:
On August 03 2008 02:15 Boona wrote:
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote:
Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit? I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
How about "it's StarCraft so it's relevant" and "there's money on the line so they're trying"? I believe I actually said that the money made the games much more legitimate in my first post, something you completely ignored when you parodied my post.
So if there's money on the line it's legitimate? Skins is legitimate now? Make up some criteria and defend it, you're just including whatever you feel like based on feel.
omg go.go for #1 he 7-0'd 910, best player EVAR!!!!!1!one!!!!!111 |
| | Every time Leta wins, a puppy is born // .risingdragoon finds fat women attractive | |
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| Vasoline73 United States. August 03 2008 16:48. Posts 6970 | Profile Blog # |
On August 03 2008 09:14 fusionsdf wrote:
if flash beat jaedong 7 times in a row in a skins match you're telling me that wouldnt change how you evaluate their strength at the moment?
Yeah fusion makes a good point here. Obviously if Flash or Jaedong 7-0'ed the other one everybody on TL.net would want the winner to be higher on the power rank than the other.
So in a sense, yes, Skins definitely does count for something |
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| fusionsdf Canada. August 03 2008 17:06. Posts 15354 | Profile Blog # |
On August 03 2008 16:39 Sunyveil wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 03 2008 09:10 Chill wrote:
On August 03 2008 07:51 Kwark wrote:
On August 03 2008 04:11 Chill wrote:
On August 03 2008 02:15 Boona wrote:
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote:
Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count.
You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
There's nothing stating that that line must be kespa. It would be more reasonable to draw it between tournaments where many progamers are willing to participate competitively and tournaments that's only for marketing/fun. As in between GSL and WWI.
Who distinguishes the different? Now we have to analyze players' attitudes going into events? Many of them are in WCG for money and not prestige, where does that fit? I'm just point out how Kwark's "it's StarCraft so it counts" criteria is ridiculous.
How about "it's StarCraft so it's relevant" and "there's money on the line so they're trying"? I believe I actually said that the money made the games much more legitimate in my first post, something you completely ignored when you parodied my post.
So if there's money on the line it's legitimate? Skins is legitimate now? Make up some criteria and defend it, you're just including whatever you feel like based on feel.
omg go.go for #1 he 7-0'd 910, best player EVAR!!!!!1!one!!!!!111
neither player is noteworthy
a mediocre player beating another mediocre player doesnt mean anything.
but if flash 7-0'd jaedong are you honestly telling me that wouldnt influence your opinion of who is stronger at the moment?
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| | SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran." | |
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| raga4ka Bulgaria. August 03 2008 17:08. Posts 5044 | Profile # |
On August 03 2008 16:48 Vasoline73 wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 03 2008 09:14 fusionsdf wrote:
if flash beat jaedong 7 times in a row in a skins match you're telling me that wouldnt change how you evaluate their strength at the moment?
Yeah fusion makes a good point here. Obviously if Flash or Jaedong 7-0'ed the other one everybody on TL.net would want the winner to be higher on the power rank than the other. So in a sense, yes, Skins definitely does count for something
If Jaedongs took MSL OSL and GOM , but Flash beat him 7 - 0 in a skin mach , who will be #1 ?
Jaedong of course ... |
| | "For the progamer of today and ad infinitum, there will always be the ceiling that is Ma Jae-Yoon. Look on his works, ye mighty, and despair" -Xxio | |
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| fusionsdf Canada. August 03 2008 17:23. Posts 15354 | Profile Blog # |
On August 03 2008 17:08 raga4ka wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 03 2008 16:48 Vasoline73 wrote:
On August 03 2008 09:14 fusionsdf wrote:
if flash beat jaedong 7 times in a row in a skins match you're telling me that wouldnt change how you evaluate their strength at the moment?
Yeah fusion makes a good point here. Obviously if Flash or Jaedong 7-0'ed the other one everybody on TL.net would want the winner to be higher on the power rank than the other. So in a sense, yes, Skins definitely does count for something
If Jaedongs took MSL OSL and GOM , but Flash beat him 7 - 0 in a skin mach , who will be #1 ? Jaedong of course ...
obviously
Im not saying the Skins are worth more than MSL OSL and GSL combined, so your example is ridiculous. |
| | SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran." | |
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| Dazed_Spy Canada. August 04 2008 00:06. Posts 1683 | Profile Blog # |
On August 03 2008 16:13 Juicyfruit wrote:
You can't really count GSL because, unfortunately, not all pro's were given a chance to participate.
This means we run into problems:
- if you reward players for winning games in the GSI, you'd also have to penalize the ones who loses the games. Unfortunately, one would then argue that the losers simply wasn't trying his very best since he isn't as motivated for the GSL as he would be for OSL/MSL (who knows...)
- OR you could count only select games in the GSL where it is obvious both players played well and the win was well deserved. However, this is like giving bonus points to players who got a chance to participate in the GSL, which is unfair to those whose teams forbade them from entering.
The GSI didn't have everyone in it, but it was still counted. To a lesser degree, as should the GSL, I'm not saying any radical changes should be made on the PR in leu of someones GSL run. But if there is a slot open for number 10, it should be considered. Though I don't think backho should get in personally, I'm just saying.
Last edit: 2008-08-04 00:06:34 |
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| raga4ka Bulgaria. August 05 2008 03:36. Posts 5044 | Profile # |
Steve are you waiting for the Gom Final or something  ? |
| | "For the progamer of today and ad infinitum, there will always be the ceiling that is Ma Jae-Yoon. Look on his works, ye mighty, and despair" -Xxio | |
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 SonuvBob Administrator August 05 2008 15:29. | Profile Blog # |
On August 03 2008 00:42 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 02 2008 07:32 Kwark wrote:
On August 02 2008 02:06 Chill wrote:
On August 02 2008 01:19 Kwark wrote:
On July 31 2008 17:50 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
backho is not going on the power rank
he's a shitty fucking player, if you want to pretend he had "GREAT RESULTS THIS MONTH" maybe you should pay attention to what fucking happens in leagues. backho lost more games than he won this month
don't try to tell me his win over nada in wcg makes him power rank material because i'll laugh in your face
A win over NaDa doesn't alone make him PR material. None of his individual wins do. Even vs high profile opponents such as Kal or Stork. It's when you take all his wins and put them in a big row that you realise that he just keeps on winning.
+ 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Twilight) Othello (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Space Platform) Andromeda (T)NaDa Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Twilight) Othello (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Desert) Troy (Z)July Win + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)July Loss + 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Jungle World) Hwarangdo (Z)July Loss + 08-07-01 Shinhan08 Proleague (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)Haran Loss k and then if you want 2008: + Show Spoiler ++ 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Twilight) Othello (T)NaDa Win
+ 08-07-30 WCG2008 Korea (Space Platform) Andromeda (T)NaDa Win
+ 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Twilight) Othello (Z)July Loss
+ 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Desert) Troy (Z)July Win
+ 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)July Loss
+ 08-07-04 EVER2008 OSL (Jungle World) Hwarangdo (Z)July Loss
+ 08-07-01 Shinhan08 Proleague (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)Haran Loss
+ 08-06-20 EVER2008 OSL (Space Platform) Andromeda (P)JangBi Win
+ 08-06-20 EVER2008 OSL (Desert) Troy (P)JangBi Win
+ 08-06-16 Shinhan08 Proleague (Space Platform) Andromeda (T)BoxeR Win
+ 08-06-13 EVER2008 OSL (Twilight) Othello (P)JangBi Loss
+ 08-05-30 EVER2008 OSL (Twilight) Othello (P)Bisu Win
+ 08-05-21 EVER2008 OSL (Desert) Troy (T)Mind Loss
+ 08-05-14 EVER2008 OSL (Space Platform) Andromeda (P)Much Win
+ 08-04-21 Shinhan08 Proleague (Space Platform) Andromeda (P)Chalrenge Win
+ 08-04-16 EVER2008 OSL (Desert) Troy (T)Casy Win
+ 08-04-16 EVER2008 OSL (Space Platform) Andromeda (Z)Jaedong Win
+ 08-04-16 EVER2008 OSL (Jungle World) Hwarangdo (Z)GGPlay Loss
+ 08-01-30 Bacchus OSL (Jungle World) Katrina (T)FrOzean Loss
+ 08-01-23 Bacchus OSL (Desert) Troy (Z)YellOw[ArnC] Loss
+ 08-01-18 Bacchus OSL (Twilight) Blue Storm (P)Much Loss
+ 08-01-06 Shinhan07 Proleagu.. (Jungle World) Katrina (Z)HyunJun Win This is parallel to the fact that backho sucks terrible ass.
And now add the GSL games. Removing one of the tournaments he got to the semifinals of simply because kespa politics refused it recognition is pointless. The games he played were Starcraft and therefore they count. You can argue that the less important the competition the less they practice so it counts for less but given the GSL prize pool I don't think that's relevant here. Saying a player sucks ass and using a list of games missing the league they came joint 3rd as proof isn't a great argument.
Ok, cool. I got first in the SexyTime league and the SuperBestFriends league, so I'm #2 Britain (behind Midian). I don't care if you've never heard of them, they were StarCraft and therefore they count. You have to draw the line somewhere, and that line is kespa.
It's not an objective ranking system like ELO, so there doesn't need to be a distinct line. It's just Steve's opinion of the current top ten players in the world. It's probably based more on how the players are actually playing (BackHo sucks even when he wins) than on win/loss stats, so why would he leave out GSL?
edit: Skins was for charity btw.  Last edit: 2008-08-05 15:30:55 |
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 Mikilatov United States. August 06 2008 07:06. Posts 3897 | Profile Blog # |
I think most people criticizing the Power Rank fail to fully understand the nature of it. It's not official, it's not the ELO system, there's no point values involved, it's just a general representation of who is badass in the Starcraft world right now. I'm sure 90% of us would swap a rank here or there, or throw someone else into the top 10 for whatever reasoning, but that's not important. We've got the KESPA ranking for those types of official rankings, so it's great to have something like the Power Rank to more loosely judge players who are currently kicking ass in general, and not on a strict point-based system which doesn't take how the games were won into consideration, as well as the manner of the players, and many other factors.
Speaking of which, I'm impatiently waiting for the new Power Rank !Last edit: 2008-08-06 07:07:28 |
| | ♥ I used to lasso the shit out of your tournaments =( ♥ | Much is my hero. | zizi yO~ | Be Nice, TL. |  |
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| only_human89 United States. August 06 2008 11:07. Posts 212 | Profile Blog # |
Poll: Will the Flash vs Jaedong rivalry live up to the hype in the long run?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
I like Flash and Jaedong the most for there respective races right now. I know they both lost to fOrGG in the MSL,(which did leave a bitter taste in my mouth, hoping for the Flash and Jaedong rivalry to grow) but they are still the most exciting players out there for me right now. I guess I'm just saying I hope for another Boxer vs Yellow type rivalry. Those made for some exciting games back in the day. The Bisu vs Savior hype was short lived, not to mention Savior has been consistently unable to put up a fight vs him anyways. What do you guys think? Will Flash and Jaedong develop a rivalry worthy of the Boxer vs Yellow era? I think they are off to a good start.
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| | "You're a pathetic, jerk, loser, and I wouldn't kiss you if I had brain cancer and your lips were the cure" LOOOOL |
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