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 KwarK United Kingdom. July 07 2008 09:58. Posts 20451 | Profile Blog # |
Early game on Hwarangdo. Nexus first build was very bold but absolutely correct. He correctly read Julys fast drone scout as a 12 hatch 11 pool build afraid of cheese and did the most optimal counter completely blind. I like. Also the probe vs drone micro was pretty nice. Solid scouting of the 2 hatch hydra den with a late third. The scout probe died 6:58 into the vod, pretty much as the sair came out. Reacts well to the scouting information with cannons against a possible hydra break and a fastish robo. Keeps sairing against a possible muta switch and racks up 4 or so ovi kills. To be quite honest I'm surprised he loses this game right now. Obs out early and the lurk contain completely fails to contain. He evens up the base count and July has a weak 4 hatchery. Speedlot and reaver tech looking secure.
Holy fucking God what was that!?!
When the scourge kill your corsairs don't go allin with reaverzee. When the muta move in over your zee and you have cannons at your 3rd and equal base count don't engage. Just back off because you don't need to fight, you're already winning. And for gods sake don't attack move your zealots into lurkscourgeovi.
Steve. BackHo outplayed the fuck out of July for a good 10 minutes of this vod. 3 bases each. BackHo had better grades, more production, more income and map control. This game backs up my theory that as soon as a C- player sits him down and explains that the lurkscourgeovi combo is strong vs speedlots because it kills the observers he'll be unstoppable. |
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 GrandInquisitor  New York City. July 07 2008 10:04. Posts 7901 | Profile Blog # |
On July 07 2008 09:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Now, let's just talk about you for a moment. Do YOU watch every single pro game every month? Do YOU have six years of experience analyzing professional starcraft? Do YOU appreciate every nuance, every subtlety of the games you watch? I do, that's why I write the Power Rank. If you don't, maybe you aren't in a position to call anything "shitty", hmm?
loooooooooooooooooooooooooool |
| | What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero? |
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| pindleskin New Zealand. July 07 2008 10:06. Posts 177 | Profile # |
| Man, im so down for JaeDong vs Flash MSL final, it outweighs the OSL final lol |
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 FakeSteve[TPR] Valhalla. July 07 2008 10:17. Posts 17062 | Profile Blog # |
On July 07 2008 09:58 Kwark wrote:
Early game on Hwarangdo. Nexus first build was very bold but absolutely correct. He correctly read Julys fast drone scout as a 12 hatch 11 pool build afraid of cheese and did the most optimal counter completely blind. I like. Also the probe vs drone micro was pretty nice. Solid scouting of the 2 hatch hydra den with a late third. The scout probe died 6:58 into the vod, pretty much as the sair came out. Reacts well to the scouting information with cannons against a possible hydra break and a fastish robo. Keeps sairing against a possible muta switch and racks up 4 or so ovi kills. To be quite honest I'm surprised he loses this game right now. Obs out early and the lurk contain completely fails to contain. He evens up the base count and July has a weak 4 hatchery. Speedlot and reaver tech looking secure.
Holy fucking God what was that!?!
When the scourge kill your corsairs don't go allin with reaverzee. When the muta move in over your zee and you have cannons at your 3rd and equal base count don't engage. Just back off because you don't need to fight, you're already winning. And for gods sake don't attack move your zealots into lurkscourgeovi.
Steve. BackHo outplayed the fuck out of July for a good 10 minutes of this vod. 3 bases each. BackHo had better grades, more production, more income and map control. This game backs up my theory that as soon as a C- player sits him down and explains that the lurkscourgeovi combo is strong vs speedlots because it kills the observers he'll be unstoppable.
having a build order that counters july's doesn't mean he 'outplayed' july
in fact, since he played like total shit besides having a good build, and july raped him, i don't see where you're coming from |
| | Resident League of Legends & Street Fighter guru - " I know alot of words including tabernacle." - FuDDx ~~~ vrok, newest FakeSteve Fan Club member (55)! |  |
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| KwarK United Kingdom. July 07 2008 10:21. Posts 20451 | Profile Blog # |
Andromeda game. Opening is standard. I'm not so sure about forge cannon cannon nex vs overpool no gas on a map the size on andromeda but to be honest it's not bad. It's just unambitious. Nice delay of Julys nat. The very fast tech build I can't rate really because PvZ on Andromeda is so variable that I kind of need to see where he's going with this before criticise it. Although his scouting is unsuccessful he still gets information from drone count and lack of 2nd gas and I think he should get marks for trying. Although I may be being too generous here. The third cannon at his nat and the zealots I'm not keen on because he scouted that July wasn't trying anything aggressive so he should have been teching faster. He's delayed his 3rd a lot in favour of a mass speedzee timing expo hunt. Also delayed his templar tech, a decision I agree with because with speedovis the speed July will have and muta tech out there I can't see darksair killing Julys 4th. I think BackHos army was actually stronger when July cracked his nat. It was excellent decision making on Julys part. BackHo wasn't in a bad spot. His decisions were pretty good. He had rights units at the right time. What he lacked was information. July was in the process of scattering his speedovis across the map and saw BackHo divide his forces, BackHo had no map vision and didn't see July move out.
I'm not going to criticise BackHo at all for this game because quite frankly I cannot fault his play. In hindsight he should have had a probe near Julys base so when July moved out he could redeploy his forces. But his build was fine. His macro, good. His decision making good. What happened was that one of the best players ever saw a 10 second window of opportunity and simply executed him in it. BackHo did not disappoint this game, it was just one of those things. That said, he also didn't do something utterly retarded and throw away an otherwise won game so this conclusion goes against my BackHo secret genius theory. |
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| FakeSteve[TPR] Valhalla. July 07 2008 10:22. Posts 17062 | Profile Blog # |
Again, he got straight raped
Not making a very convincing argument! You can't get enough points for having an average build order to make the PR |
| | Resident League of Legends & Street Fighter guru - " I know alot of words including tabernacle." - FuDDx ~~~ vrok, newest FakeSteve Fan Club member (55)! | |
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| KwarK United Kingdom. July 07 2008 10:25. Posts 20451 | Profile Blog # |
On July 07 2008 10:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 07 2008 09:58 Kwark wrote:
Early game on Hwarangdo. Nexus first build was very bold but absolutely correct. He correctly read Julys fast drone scout as a 12 hatch 11 pool build afraid of cheese and did the most optimal counter completely blind. I like. Also the probe vs drone micro was pretty nice. Solid scouting of the 2 hatch hydra den with a late third. The scout probe died 6:58 into the vod, pretty much as the sair came out. Reacts well to the scouting information with cannons against a possible hydra break and a fastish robo. Keeps sairing against a possible muta switch and racks up 4 or so ovi kills. To be quite honest I'm surprised he loses this game right now. Obs out early and the lurk contain completely fails to contain. He evens up the base count and July has a weak 4 hatchery. Speedlot and reaver tech looking secure.
Holy fucking God what was that!?!
When the scourge kill your corsairs don't go allin with reaverzee. When the muta move in over your zee and you have cannons at your 3rd and equal base count don't engage. Just back off because you don't need to fight, you're already winning. And for gods sake don't attack move your zealots into lurkscourgeovi.
Steve. BackHo outplayed the fuck out of July for a good 10 minutes of this vod. 3 bases each. BackHo had better grades, more production, more income and map control. This game backs up my theory that as soon as a C- player sits him down and explains that the lurkscourgeovi combo is strong vs speedlots because it kills the observers he'll be unstoppable.
having a build order that counters july's doesn't mean he 'outplayed' july in fact, since he played like total shit besides having a good build, and july raped him, i don't see where you're coming from
He didn't just luck into a better build order. He read July correctly and countered him appropriately. When BackHo's 3rd base went down July was a long way behind. A long way behind as a consequence of BackHo making better decisions for the duration of the game. I contend that if BackHo didn't fight the retarded battle involving speedlots without observers against lurkers, instead retreating to his cannons which I do not believe July could have broken, he would have won. He would certainly have been in a stronger position.
If I played July and he got into a hugely advantageous position and then insisted on fighting darksair with massling and threw it away you would not say I raped him. You would say that July threw it away with a tactical error. The same happened this game. |
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| KwarK United Kingdom. July 07 2008 10:28. Posts 20451 | Profile Blog # |
On July 07 2008 10:22 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Again, he got straight raped
Not making a very convincing argument! You can't get enough points for having an average build order to make the PR
The second game wasn't really long enough to judge anything from. BackHo didn't make any real mistakes. July saw a hole in the armour and struck instantly with everything he had. And that sense is why he's a starleague champion. But I'm not going to blame BackHo for losing to that. |
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| FakeSteve[TPR] Valhalla. July 07 2008 10:29. Posts 17062 | Profile Blog # |
On July 07 2008 10:25 Kwark wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 07 2008 10:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
On July 07 2008 09:58 Kwark wrote:
Early game on Hwarangdo. Nexus first build was very bold but absolutely correct. He correctly read Julys fast drone scout as a 12 hatch 11 pool build afraid of cheese and did the most optimal counter completely blind. I like. Also the probe vs drone micro was pretty nice. Solid scouting of the 2 hatch hydra den with a late third. The scout probe died 6:58 into the vod, pretty much as the sair came out. Reacts well to the scouting information with cannons against a possible hydra break and a fastish robo. Keeps sairing against a possible muta switch and racks up 4 or so ovi kills. To be quite honest I'm surprised he loses this game right now. Obs out early and the lurk contain completely fails to contain. He evens up the base count and July has a weak 4 hatchery. Speedlot and reaver tech looking secure.
Holy fucking God what was that!?!
When the scourge kill your corsairs don't go allin with reaverzee. When the muta move in over your zee and you have cannons at your 3rd and equal base count don't engage. Just back off because you don't need to fight, you're already winning. And for gods sake don't attack move your zealots into lurkscourgeovi.
Steve. BackHo outplayed the fuck out of July for a good 10 minutes of this vod. 3 bases each. BackHo had better grades, more production, more income and map control. This game backs up my theory that as soon as a C- player sits him down and explains that the lurkscourgeovi combo is strong vs speedlots because it kills the observers he'll be unstoppable.
having a build order that counters july's doesn't mean he 'outplayed' july in fact, since he played like total shit besides having a good build, and july raped him, i don't see where you're coming from
He didn't just luck into a better build order. He read July correctly and countered him appropriately. When BackHo's 3rd base went down July was a long way behind. A long way behind as a consequence of BackHo making better decisions for the duration of the game. I contend that if BackHo didn't fight the retarded battle involving speedlots without observers against lurkers, instead retreating to his cannons which I do not believe July could have broken, he would have won. He would certainly have been in a stronger position. If I played July and he got into a hugely advantageous position and then insisted on fighting darksair with massling and threw it away you would not say I raped him. You would say that July threw it away with a tactical error. The same happened this game.
Look, most any protoss can properly react to the simplistic builds that July does (his skill is in the execution). Losing an advantage like that through awful AWFUL play is a point against backho, not for. |
| | Resident League of Legends & Street Fighter guru - " I know alot of words including tabernacle." - FuDDx ~~~ vrok, newest FakeSteve Fan Club member (55)! | |
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| KwarK United Kingdom. July 07 2008 10:29. Posts 20451 | Profile Blog # |
| The Troy game he doesn't get any points for. He didn't handle the situation badly and nor did July. But I'm not going to award him points for showing good micro because I expect it of him. Was just one of those games. |
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| KwarK United Kingdom. July 07 2008 10:33. Posts 20451 | Profile Blog # |
On July 07 2008 10:29 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 07 2008 10:25 Kwark wrote:
On July 07 2008 10:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
On July 07 2008 09:58 Kwark wrote:
Early game on Hwarangdo. Nexus first build was very bold but absolutely correct. He correctly read Julys fast drone scout as a 12 hatch 11 pool build afraid of cheese and did the most optimal counter completely blind. I like. Also the probe vs drone micro was pretty nice. Solid scouting of the 2 hatch hydra den with a late third. The scout probe died 6:58 into the vod, pretty much as the sair came out. Reacts well to the scouting information with cannons against a possible hydra break and a fastish robo. Keeps sairing against a possible muta switch and racks up 4 or so ovi kills. To be quite honest I'm surprised he loses this game right now. Obs out early and the lurk contain completely fails to contain. He evens up the base count and July has a weak 4 hatchery. Speedlot and reaver tech looking secure.
Holy fucking God what was that!?!
When the scourge kill your corsairs don't go allin with reaverzee. When the muta move in over your zee and you have cannons at your 3rd and equal base count don't engage. Just back off because you don't need to fight, you're already winning. And for gods sake don't attack move your zealots into lurkscourgeovi.
Steve. BackHo outplayed the fuck out of July for a good 10 minutes of this vod. 3 bases each. BackHo had better grades, more production, more income and map control. This game backs up my theory that as soon as a C- player sits him down and explains that the lurkscourgeovi combo is strong vs speedlots because it kills the observers he'll be unstoppable.
having a build order that counters july's doesn't mean he 'outplayed' july in fact, since he played like total shit besides having a good build, and july raped him, i don't see where you're coming from
He didn't just luck into a better build order. He read July correctly and countered him appropriately. When BackHo's 3rd base went down July was a long way behind. A long way behind as a consequence of BackHo making better decisions for the duration of the game. I contend that if BackHo didn't fight the retarded battle involving speedlots without observers against lurkers, instead retreating to his cannons which I do not believe July could have broken, he would have won. He would certainly have been in a stronger position. If I played July and he got into a hugely advantageous position and then insisted on fighting darksair with massling and threw it away you would not say I raped him. You would say that July threw it away with a tactical error. The same happened this game.
Look, most any protoss can properly react to the simplistic builds that July does (his skill is in the execution). Losing an advantage like that through awful AWFUL play is a point against backho, not for.
But my theory about BackHo has always been that he's a fantastic player held back by his complete lack of understanding of the game. In a kind of Disney underdog fashion in which the gifted youth battles a handicap or fear and eventually overcomes it. BackHo has a mental block regarding good decisions. Throwing away all map control in a battle he couldn't possibly win and didn't have any reason to fight fits right in with that. |
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| KwarK United Kingdom. July 07 2008 10:36. Posts 20451 | Profile Blog # |
| Where the hell is your stargate BackHo!??! |
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| KwarK United Kingdom. July 07 2008 10:42. Posts 20451 | Profile Blog # |
Sigh. Of these I'd give him PR points for Games 1 and 2. Game 1 I really liked how he played it up to the point where he remembered he'd bet his life savings on July and had just kind of been getting carried away with winning it. Game 2 I like how he opened and I cannot fault his strategy, macro or decision making. While it is likely he'd have made a game 1 style suicide at some point in game 2 simply because he's BackHo and it's what he does he hadn't done it yet. July winning game 2 the way he did gets July PR points and serious Sense of Star credentials but I'm reluctant to blame BackHo because I don't really think his play was in any way at fault for losing it.
Game 4 is tragic.
Given this mix of games I can't really come to a conclusion. Game 4 is like the opposite of the first two. He's shown absolutely no continuity and leaves me concluding he probably just clicks at random and just happens to be the luckiest man alive. |
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| KwarK United Kingdom. July 07 2008 10:45. Posts 20451 | Profile Blog # |
| Lol. Nice storm on the hatchery. Battle at 6 just ends and BackHos army is looking pretty set. Nothing attacking it. A high templar suddenly turns round and storms a hatchery. Not eggs or drones or larva but dead centre on the hatchery. |
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| FakeSteve[TPR] Valhalla. July 07 2008 10:50. Posts 17062 | Profile Blog # |
hahahaha
Like I said, I ADORE BackHo. He makes me smile, just like Rock does. If we're testing the theory that BackHo is an ignorant genius, you have some ground to stand on. If we're testing whether he should be on the PR or not, I must respectfully disagree  |
| | Resident League of Legends & Street Fighter guru - " I know alot of words including tabernacle." - FuDDx ~~~ vrok, newest FakeSteve Fan Club member (55)! | |
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| KwarK United Kingdom. July 07 2008 10:52. Posts 20451 | Profile Blog # |
Actually I think I'll reassess game 4. On the face of it not going stargate on a map where your natural has a very easily harassable mineral line against the muta harass master where your dragoons can't defend the mineral line sounds bad. And that's because it is. However I really like how July played this. Game 4 BackHo was raped. Maybe a faster robo could have allowed him to hit July before the macro got too strong. But to be honest I doubt it. Julys lurkling use was nice and his early powerdrone, fast crackling and dozens of hatcheries worked well. BackHo was making ground against it but with the guardians taking out his nat it wasn't enough. July makes no stargate pvz on Othello look imba.
That said, BackHo made the choice not to go stargate. Given his other builds were pretty solid this surprises me. |
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| Gregsen Germany. July 07 2008 10:55. Posts 664 | Profile Blog # |
NaDa  |
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| Kuja900 United States. July 07 2008 10:57. Posts 2789 | Profile Blog # |
| i really like the posters giving arguments for players to get into the CBNC perhaps we can do this more in the future or maby even make cases for PR perhaps a thread for PR suggestions? Just a thought i think would be interesting and provide some interactivity but once again its all up to the steve man and theyd only be suggestions hed have final calls Last edit: 2008-07-07 11:01:34 |
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| FakeSteve[TPR] Valhalla. July 07 2008 11:01. Posts 17062 | Profile Blog # | |
| | Resident League of Legends & Street Fighter guru - " I know alot of words including tabernacle." - FuDDx ~~~ vrok, newest FakeSteve Fan Club member (55)! | |
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