| knightpraetor United States. March 05 2009 04:17. Posts 173 | Profile # |
does anyone know the timing for 2 hatch vs 3 hatch mutas and lurkers? I keep getting owned by 2 hatch builds because i'm late scanning. I play in chaoslauncher with a timer, so maybe a time would help me get a feel for when i need to be scanning in the various builds that i've used. Last game for example, i had scans in time, but didn't use them for 2 scv cycles and then didn't have enough time to react. So obviously, i'm pretty bad also, i was hoping someone could explain to me how stylish seemed to build his scanners late enough that he would only have 2 scans in his EE timing build fpvod. I mean, he scanned the opponents tech, but shouldn't 2 scans be insufficient to scan 3 hatches of creep area? it looked like lower right of the third hatch could have hid the tech long enough |
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| AtlaS United States. March 05 2009 05:11. Posts 987 | Profile Blog # |
Stylish, first of all, thank you so much for all of these VODs. I learn so much better when watching a first person view of someone playing AND the commentary is pretty much the greatest thing ever. I'm learning the EE and the 5-fact push and even though I don't even have them completely memorized, it has helped my game out so much already.
One thing, my second day of ICCUP (first day of the season), four different protoss cheesed me four times in a row. (all the maps were on destination) Two of them were proxy gates. One right outside my base and one was inside my base but the pylon was right along the cliff on the outside. I tried to wall up but the zealot was already attacking my 2nd non-finished supply when my first marine was just starting. I think I should have just made a bunker right at my choke and block the zealot with any SCVs. I just want to get your opinnion on that.
When he had the gateway in the beginning, the probe came before my first supply even finished so walling quicker seems impossible. I used a bunch of SCVs to destroy the gateway but I ended up so far behind that he gooned me before I could even get my machine shop out.
And the the next one was basically (i don't want to take up anymore of your time) a manner pylon that turned into a 2nd manner w/ gateway behind my minerals. The last one was he block in his probe between 2 pylons, the bottom of the map and a mineral patch. and then made a cannon right there. What can I do about these cannons? I know that these cheeses are annoying as all hell but I figured that there has to be a set way to defend against these set ups since you don't see it that often in progames. Maybe you could do a short VOD against protoss rushes sort of like how you did against the 4/5 pool?
+ Show Spoiler +
---M
---M
---M
---M
P C P
and the
M-mineral patch
P-pylon
C-cannon
The --- are just because the spaces don't show up.
I'll post a picture if you don't exactly
Thank you for all your hard work and contributions to helping lower ranked terran players improve  Last edit: 2009-03-05 05:11:39 |
| | I don't have mono anymore. Woooo! |
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 SilverskY Korea (South). March 05 2009 06:10. Posts 3086 | Profile # |
| Hey Stylish, I was just wondering from my personal experiences, when I 1Fact Siege Expand, my friend as a P player opts for a fast double expand, so he'll take his natural and another expansion nearby pretty quick. But he also gets a fast forge and just plasters the 3rd expansion with cannons (4-6). What is your general strategy against a Protoss who reacts like this to a 1Fact FE. Is there a certain way you should harrass his expansion? I tried with vults, but unless I manually attack or click probes, they aim for cannons and they die to cannon fire pretty fast, and I usually feel it's kinda precious to sacrifice a tank or 2 from my main army to go harrass an expansion. What are your reactions to such a counter? |
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| YPang United States. March 05 2009 06:33. Posts 3914 | Profile Blog # |
| damn.. i thoguht u got bored with making these after your inactivity of updating your OP, boy was i wrong. |
| | #1 Peru Hater | sMi.Gladstone | BW: B high| SC2: gold T_T |
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| StylishVODs Sweden. March 05 2009 07:14. Posts 4988 | Profile # |
Knightpraetor:
If you're using the 9min Push opening buildorder you can add comsats when the academy finnishes and they will be up in time to spot Spire or Hydra den from a 2 hatch build. Mutalisks are finnished at 6 minutes aproximately with a 2 hatch build. Lukers will finnish slightly after since they have to morph aswell. Watch the 2hatch counter buildorder-VOD in the OP and I talk more about how to react vs 2hatch builds.
Always use the scans at the second they finnish. If its too early then it means you made the scans too early. Learn how to delay the building of scans to be able to make some more scvs rather than delay scanning since delaying the actuall "scanspell" will not give you aditional scv's faster.
There is no way you're going to be able to scan 3 hatches with 2 scans if he places them far apart. You just have to look at other things to be sure what tech he goes. For example look at his larvas, if you see that he saves up 9 larvas and not morphing them to eggs it usually means that he is going mutalisks. Otherwise you can assume that he is doing some other tech. Also be sure to not always scan straight on the hatcherys, but rather between them so you might actually scan over a larger area of creep than you would if you scan right on top of a hatchery.
I will try to explain more about this in my next TvZ standardgame VOD.
AtlaS:
Sure I can do a VOD of how to build simcity and defend vs early protoss harass. I have some projects before that though. I understand what you mean with the cannon. You can stack scv's on the closes mineralpatch, then select 1 scv and spamclick to move it to the location of the probe and therefor block the position he needs to make a cannon. I will show how to do this in that same VOD.
Prox gate + mannerpylon etc is a very strong build on destination and its used alot. But with proper information and micro you can actually even things out most of the games but seldom get very far ahead. But i will try to cover all these things in a how to stop a proxtoss or whatever its going to be called in the near future! Be patient^^
SilverskY:
Usually I dont open 1fact siege but rather the economical FD opening which is 9suply 11rax 11gas 16factory 16suply and make 4marines out of the barrack and one tank from factory with mines and one or two vultures. Its explained in my TvP 5fact VOD. This way you will be able to punnish a protoss that takes early expansions+ late units because of early forge since you will be able to scout with the intial vulture after you've laid mines outside your base. If i see a really early forge and 3rd from the iopponent i switch from the 5fact to the faster 4factpush. I will do a bo-vod of this when i have time. Basically you do the same as in the 5factpush but you skip armory and delay the refinary in you expansion to be able to get 3 more factories up as early as possible and move out for a timingpush around the 8min-8:30 mark.
To sum this up. Basically just delay refinary and skip armory and make 3 more factories earlier than with the 5factpush and push out really quick. As I said i will cover this in a VOD if i get the time to do it.
I hope this answers some of the questions, if you still dont understand something please ask again!
Ypang: No no, i was just sick for 2 weeks and then I had to work alot and then I had the whole A- incident so i massgamed instead of making VODs for some days but now Im back in business.
Im currently doing the commentary for Gamevod of TvZ 8Rax Mech and TvZ 2port both played on B+ level Iccup from last season! Will hopefully be up in a few hours.
I have also collected 10+ games of the A-yu-mi build and some other builds and will make reppacks as soon as i know how to make a reppack;) I dont know how to pack files and things like that, I'm not very good at computers...
A new feature will be tons of replays to back every build up as I've stated in the OP.
Last edit: 2009-03-05 07:16:59 |
| | According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was. |
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| SilverskY Korea (South). March 05 2009 07:57. Posts 3086 | Profile # |
| Thanks for your answer Stylish, it helps a lot. But for another (slightly more specific) question: When a protoss has an expansion but it's got a lot of cannons to defend it, is it optimal that you bring a tank or 2 along with vults to probe kill/harrass? Or is there a specific maneuver you can do just with using vultures to get probe kills. I find it difficult because unless I manually aim with vults, they aim for cannons and end up dying in cross fire. |
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| freelander Hungary. March 05 2009 08:07. Posts 3961 | Profile Blog # |
On March 05 2009 07:57 SilverskY wrote:
Thanks for your answer Stylish, it helps a lot. But for another (slightly more specific) question: When a protoss has an expansion but it's got a lot of cannons to defend it, is it optimal that you bring a tank or 2 along with vults to probe kill/harrass? Or is there a specific maneuver you can do just with using vultures to get probe kills. I find it difficult because unless I manually aim with vults, they aim for cannons and end up dying in cross fire.
well, in the case of lots of cannons
tank is just too slow to kill them, unless you bring a lot of tanks which you can't really do usually, OR you have the protoss contained/out of position somehow so they can't kill the tank with a couple zealots.
if you have 12 vultures to harrass and against like 4 cannons, you can kill all the probes while sacrificing 6-8 vultures. Use shift click to attack probes one after another.
If you have extreme vulture numbers, you can take down the cannons first.
With few vultures, don't sacrifice them. It's not really worth it. You 'll only get like 1-2 kills before your vults die |
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| StylishVODs Sweden. March 05 2009 08:54. Posts 4988 | Profile # |
SilverskY:
If the protoss aims for a fast third and a bunch of cannons you are better of with doing a timing push and punish him for his low unitscount rather than trying to hurt his economy with vultureraids.
Aim to get 6-7 tanks and then produce vults only and move out pretty soon towards whatever is closest to you.
However if you still want to vultureraid him, there is no easy way to kill probes. Usually if i have a group of lets say 8 vultures that im harassing with i take 4 of those vultures and click attack on a probe then shift attack on another then keep holing shift and press attack on a third, forth and fifth. This way they will fire on new probetargets automatically. The reason i take 4 of those vults is that its not good to have all 8 vultures attacking one probe. Its better to split up (dont split up hotkeys just do it manually) the group in half and shiftspam attack on different probes with both groups and then directly take advantage of the autoattack by going home and make a macroround.
After the macroround go back to the vults and save as many as you can before they're all dead.
I hope this answers your question.Last edit: 2009-03-05 08:56:50 |
| | According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was. |
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| SilverskY Korea (South). March 05 2009 09:30. Posts 3086 | Profile # |
| Thanks a lot for all your help guys! |
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| StylishVODs Sweden. March 05 2009 10:16. Posts 4988 | Profile # |
Update 5 March
- TvZ 2 Port Wraith Game-VOD is up!
- TvZ 8Rax Mech Game-VOD is up!
Enjoy!!
Also please feel free to give me feedback on the General TvZ Tips VOD. It might not have been the most entertaining thing to watch but I didn't know how else to explain everything in detail.
Most of the stuff is pretty basic, but i've had questions on how i hotkey and how i 1a2a3a and buildingplacements etc so i thought making a VOD where i cover these things would be good.Last edit: 2009-03-05 11:39:14 |
| | According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was. |
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| LOcDowN Vietnam. March 05 2009 11:54. Posts 938 | Profile # |
| I'm still in the process of watching part 2 of TvZ General Tips but so far everything is very smooth. Your explanations are clear; you didn't rush anything; and it seems that you've forced yourself into the perspective of the learner because your explanations are easily understandable. I liked the specific fingers placement on #'s for unit control. I also liked the control+shift action to add units into the main army. Both informations are new to me (what a noob, i know) so they were great. The mentioning of small details such as ling movement and where to place bunkers were awesome. Overall, loved the details of your insights. It feels as if the TvZ General Tips should've been the first chapter of your book whereas the rest of the chapters should've been the different TvZ BO variations. Last edit: 2009-03-05 12:00:12 |
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| YPang United States. March 05 2009 12:18. Posts 3914 | Profile Blog # |
i want to see more Bio variation BO's instead of Mech...  |
| | #1 Peru Hater | sMi.Gladstone | BW: B high| SC2: gold T_T |
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| NeVeR March 05 2009 12:34. Posts 1317 | Profile Blog # |
| Really nice of you to be making all these vids. Thanks! |
| | Boycotting SC2 since September 2010. Long live BROOD WAR, the #1 e-sport in existence! |
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| ZzZzAnG United States. March 05 2009 13:03. Posts 109 | Profile # |
| nice new vids like always ! i have few quistions about tvz when you push with your 3tank1 vessel timing can you come out of your natural before you get tanks + vessel so you wont get contaned and have some breathing room?and ive been playing alot of iccup i hit d+ with 23-37 stats and been gettting Toss'ed around by toss if you could make a vod about 4fac push or some safe openings,proper counter or something and proper harrass when p just mass cannon expo like 4-6 cannons my vultures just get owned and its alot of waste.Im not trying to say make another whole different vod just include it in your next tvp project with tips and stuff ^^,thnx alot |
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| d1v Sweden. March 05 2009 14:19. Posts 868 | Profile Blog # |
| Thx for the game VODs! Is this really inControl getting pwned? If so, he can join Mondragon in the league of gosu Zergs getting beaten by 2 Port Wraith strategy :D |
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| SilverskY Korea (South). March 05 2009 14:20. Posts 3086 | Profile # |
| Whoa, shit, I just realized too. That 2port build was against incontrol? |
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| bias- United States. March 05 2009 14:27. Posts 403 | Profile # |
Okay, now stylish. I want you to be as good at Protoss and Zerg at all matchups and BO's, and do the Exact Same Thing for those races, too. Thanks ahead of time! 
But really, this is the best strategy, build, helpful overall thread that I've ever witnessed for improving someone's play. Keep up the great work it surely won't(+isn't) go unnoticed. |
| | For serious minds, a bias recognized is a bias sterilized. |
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| StylishVODs Sweden. March 05 2009 21:23. Posts 4988 | Profile # |
Thnx guys!
Zzzang:
Yes there will be more TvP in the future, however TvP FlashStrat and Tvp 5 FactPush is enough to hit atleast B B+ if you practice your mechanics good enough. So rather than learning new strategies I suggest that you stick with these two and just keep practicing. There is no easy way out to improve than practicing. There will be some replays of those builds up shortly.
Bias- thnx man^^
d1v and silversky yes it was inc however this is not done to brag or anything, just think of it as vs a good player to show that the strategy is viable. He was at B+ same as the other guy and the game ended faster than it should because he wasn't aware of the strategy i guess. He's still a very good player and Im sure that if we meet again the games will be much better! |
| | According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was. |
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| bugus Romania. March 06 2009 00:49. Posts 132 | Profile # |
the link for TvZ 2HatchCounter is broken.
Also, many thanks for your hard work! |
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| StylishVODs Sweden. March 06 2009 01:28. Posts 4988 | Profile # |
On March 06 2009 00:49 bugus wrote:
the link for TvZ 2HatchCounter is broken.
Also, many thanks for your hard work!
ah yes, some files deletes after a while from filefront i dont know why. Im currently playing so i cannot upload it atm but will do shortly. If any other VOD is unreachable please let me know! |
| | According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was. |
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