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On April 22 2009 07:40 omnimpotent wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2009 07:00 LTT wrote:It begins. I voted for Qatol in the voting thread and gave my resoning there. Qatol for mayor! The first thing that jumps out at me for the day post is that both BC and Scara "gazed up" before they died. This is either a clue or a coincidence brought about by unimaginative writing. ~ the first guy turned around; there's no looking up right before he died. irrelevant although ty for the try! good start. if anything, they were killed by something unknown,... a "lunging creature" "comprehensible message" ...something "Incognito "
Hey GeneralStan #2 what are ya doing? Or did BC not update the OP?
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Due to an intense finals period I won't be on until a brief bit friday, and then I will probably go do research and will be tied up until mon/tues. In lieu of my absence we need a strong setup from the get go and qatol is the answer for that.
Qatol is easily one of the best players here, although he tries to keep to the shadows. This hurts him because if at least one person on the mafia knows he's dangerous he dies while the medics all don't notice him. He's played a key role, sometimes the most instrumental of all, in every one of the previous games. I've played against him and worked with him and there are few I'd trust as mayor more regardless of role.
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On April 22 2009 08:34 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2009 08:24 Malongo wrote:For our clue analisis i want to remember people that BC writes his stuff a little different from Chuiu, here is the final clue post about the previous mafia from BC and the link to main page to that game + Show Spoiler +On December 27 2008 17:38 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Nevake Amaterasu Firebat, Soil, sun tan oil, asian women, sponsors, umbrella ydg Camulus zealot, situational courage(bursts needed to move forward), word combinations, Y D G starts clazziquai Yu templar, #1 fan, terran, cult member, electronic music, acid jazz, house attackzerg Ba'al zerg, mutalisk, burgers, desserts, sandwiches, etc… RebirthofLegend Kali scv, rebirth, man to legend, d-war: rebirth of legend, dragons, monsters kuja900 Chronus lurker, starleagues, julyzerg, fighting, Ver Nirrti scv, no hate, obscurity, Napoleon Bonaparte, knowing of what to do Dinmsab Apophis asian, tributes, comander, empire, terran, vulture, hate, stork references DecafChicken Anupus coffee, poultry, subway, lemons, professional, wood, defiler, plague Capek Aries computers, foot stomp, professional but cockey, probe, robot, mechanical, intelligent
Malongo Sokar dragoon, protoss fan, twin or reflection, foreign language
Vigilantes Mynock Hathor asian, tech jamming, glasses http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=83951Ill read the first post and come with a suggestion but its quite unlikely that we can have too much from this alone. On a side note: we dont have info about blues or mafia, BC is all info hidden this time? I believe we will never find out people's roles until after the game is over. Which means all we can do is go by kill power and the assumption that BC is using the same KP formula of mafia/2. This makes it dangerous for us since we can't easily catch mafia in a lie like last time with GF claiming medic. Although this makes it much harder to know how we are doing, this makes DTs much more important than in previous games, as it is one of our few ways of gathering information. DTs should keep their rolechecks for essential information, as we can't afford wasting them.
Last game BC did not use KP=mafia/2. It was some weird formula that didn't affect early deaths much but lost a lot of KP in the middle.
Suffice to say the lack of information puts us in a bind yet opens some interesting opportunities. More on that later.
Pyrr, don't go crazy on day 1 clues now
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*Gets up on stage*
Town calling me out is the right move from their knowledge base but not the best overall. I can only hope the medics are better than last game.
I said I'd be gone until mon/tues. However, I didn't even get to do research as I planned, instead I was out until thursday with my papers. Yeah, it's a discrepancy but stuff happens. I've been back since Thursday, as several people can attest to. My strategy was to use a mouth to continue to feign inactivity while still providing my usual level of input (hence this is stuff is basically just a refined version from what I sent them earlier). My reasons for this should be obvious, but if you aren't sure, see me getting triple hit last game day 1 since I put myself in the open.
Some people questioned why I hadn't been killed and suggested that it meant I was on the mafia. I'll tell you why I wasn't killed; same reason Camlito wasn't (I thought he might've been contract killer earlier or even mafia but his current effort mostly rules that out), we were staying quiet, presumed afk and not helpful. Even if he/I were mafia though, we would still be vulnerable because there are two families. Now since we are very much in the open, we definitely are vulnerable.
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Firstly, information wise. BC threw a twist with the multiple families; however, I'm very surprised nobody has seriously thought about what the evidence means.
Consider: so far we know that a) mafia have at least 3 hits per side b) nothing else concrete. Now many people have supposed that the mafia have 5-6 players per side or so (ridiculous).
Think about it. In a 2 mafia game the mafia can, must, and will target each other. Therefore they require significantly more KP or numbers or both than in a regular game. To summarize the proof (which I'll post if wanted but I don't see a need), first compare Ace's game with 2 families to say the last game (20 total mafia, 20 KP, 84 people vs 10 total mafia, 6 KP, 65 people). Second think it through. If there are two mafia, the total mafia power must be significantly larger because they will waste a lot of KP + effort killing and sabotaging each other.
1st night, mafia had 2 KP each + Ace taking a hit. So they likely had a doublestack or missing hit somewhere that some dumbo never called. This means they must have at least 3 KP (unless losing Bockit forced the one family to lower to 2? I doubt it but it's a possibility.)
2nd night, things are trickier. From what I can tell, it looks like one mafia killed fakesteve, amber, and infundi since they were grouped together. But the other deaths are all hopelessly spread out. Did one mafia kill rage/truth? Showtime/laxer? Is this a viable assumption? I'm honestly lost but with 8 total kills, at least 1 going to the vigi/ck (ace), it *looks like* each mafia has between 3-4. But then how do we account for the day 1 low count? The next day will explain a lot.
While it is uncertain for now, I think the mafia probably has 3 KP (total of 6, like last game). They definitely have more than 2 given last night, and could have 4. But that would make the 1st night hard to explain (3 missing hits + ace blocked???). Thus I think 3 is the safest bet, and there were 2 random kills in there from vigis/cks.
Now there are two variables here, KP and numbers. So if mafia are weak in KP...they must be strong in numbers (making it a longer, less variable game, unlike Ace's). I believe BC balanced the game properly and given our knowledge of KP, the mafia must be more numerous than has been thought. 5-6? No way. Try 7-8. My guess is 8 per side.
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The consequences:
Each side can therefore throw a considerable number of people for voting, much more than was thought (although I bet both sides have several inactives). The key figure to use is qatol. First off, there's a very high chance he is mafia (he would pobably be the leader of one of the mafia since he's a top player). I originally thought he could've been contract killer as well but I think at this point we have to go for the kill regardless as we are up against the ropes.
The other mafia obviously think he's mafia too. As one mafia cannot kill the other mafia mayor without killing BGs and therefore they want him dead pronto (since killing the leader paralyzes a lot of mafia's who depend on them). This should show up in the votes against him (lots of mafia in the anti-qatol family should be there). These people are key because they've been able to stay under the radar so far by blending in with the anti-qatol bandwagons. Qatol's mafia should be easier to catch with more obvious measures. From this logic, let's go and see what we can get.
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Qatol list:
semioldguy- I think he's a pretty solid suspect. Hasn't been helping as much as he should be/was last game. Maybe he's in finals? Apathetic? Who knows, but he hasn't said anything about external stuff, so don't give him the benefit of the doubt.
GoodWill- Originally he laid low and tried to avoid calling attention to himself. Randomly he is now slipping in with the town bandwagon against Qatol. This fits my logic exactly, making him a strong suspect as well.
motbob-I don't think he's mafia.
Fishball- I'll be honest: I have a very difficult time reading Fishball. Can't say anything special here other than he's not contributing anything and can easily fit the pattern but who knows.
LordWeird-This guy is very suspicious for the same reasons as coolcrimefighter (see below). I know Malongo wants him dead too and I'd totally support that but not based on clues because I don't trust clues. Also fyi, Malongo is innocent pretty sure.
3clipse-Could easily fit a low key mafia like the above guys. Definite suspect a well.
Mynock-Here's a toughie. Mynock has been anti-qatol for awhile and hasn't contributed as much as normal. In particular, he generally makes a lot of well thought out posts in previous games but this game most of his posts have been sort and devoid of details/his typical thought processes, making me kinda leery. Now he may have wanted to hide like Camlito since he always dies early. However, he's definitely in the open now, so I hope we can see some good stuff from him if he's innocent. If not, he could easily be the leader of the non-qatol mafia family given his fierce opposition to Qatol.
t_co-I think he's probably innocent although his behavior seems out of character given his inactivity in ace's game.
coolcrimefighter-With a large mafia side and a large number of inactives mafia must have some too. Now this guy hasn't done anything all game except somehow escape an early lynch (it's these people we want to pay attention to). This is especially weird after how *awful* he acted. Yet he suddenly votes against Qatol without any reasoning?
QuickStriker- Dead. His own fault though for acting like an 0cz3c version of mafia. Townies have been easy for Qatol to finger since they've acted suspicious.
Mikeymoo <-- from Abstain- His vote from abstain to get closer to getting a lynch on Qatol makes him look pretty dang suspicious. Also, he fingered Monoxide early yet backed off when the town moved on to other targets and went with quickstriker on nothing. This could be legit, or could just be trying to avoid suspicion. Add to this his lack of contribution from a normally strong player and it's easy to see why I'm suspicious.
3 Lions- Looks just like the above guys in his category. Random vote at the end from nowhere hoping to get Qatol lynched at the last minute. Very questionable.
In short, tiers of suspects:
Random players who fit a possible pattern-
coolcrimefighter lordweird goodwill 3clipse 3 lions
Strong players acting out of character-
semioldguy mikeymoo Mynock
Uncertain but questionable- fishball- need help here
I guarantee that there are at least a few innocents on this. However, i think it has the highest probability of mafia we can get. Feedback? Thoughts?
Just an fyi. Because I was inactive so long, I have no information from behind the scenes which is how I usually determine a lot of my behavior analysis (like last game I figured out every good player was innocent before I died and it was mostly through pm's). If anyone has any private communication from these people I encourage you to post/pm it. Obviously it won't be the same as if I was the one laying traps for them but anything helps at this point as the town lack vital information.
Will do the other list tomorrow. Very late here and I'm dead tired.
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On May 08 2009 07:52 Ver wrote: Council obeyed.
On May 08 2009 07:53 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:I am pretty sure that applies here. Edit: Nothing personal Ver
Oh sorry, I meant the mafia council.
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On May 08 2009 08:02 Qatol wrote: Excuse me... I only had 2 blues roleclaim to me. Vivi57 and Showtime!
Both of these we pegged on behavior analysis beforehand anyway.
Lucas and 3clipse figured out Pyrr's role from their billion PM's but we never got a direct roleclaim from anyone that we didn't already know.
Oh and btw my absences were legit up until the last two days when I didn't need to post since it was game over. I did not want to be mafia since I knew I'd have very little time, but alas that was not to be the case. In addition the game started half a week earlier than it was originally planned to be.
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On May 08 2009 08:08 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 08:06 Ver wrote:On May 08 2009 08:02 Qatol wrote: Excuse me... I only had 2 blues roleclaim to me. Vivi57 and Showtime! Both of these we pegged on behavior analysis beforehand anyway. Lucas and 3clipse figured out Pyrr's role from their billion PM's but we never got a direct roleclaim from anyone that we didn't already know. Oh and btw my absences were legit up until the last two days when I didn't need to post since it was game over. I did not want to be mafia since I knew I'd have very little time, but alas that was not to be the case. In addition the game started half a week earlier than it was originally planned to be. you liar you never miss to play when you are townie. I had you since day 2. no kidding read the thread. And the townies have to learn to play with less pms, thats only help for the mafia.
I don't lie about my absences. The two games I've been townie I've had much more time than I did this game, same with BC's first game when I was mafia and plotting all day in irc. In Caller's game I had less time and this game I barely had any until a week ago but I really didn't need to post since game was already over so I didn't bother.
You're just being overly paranoid. Just like when you thought I was secretly smurfing in Chuiu's aborted game. Me being absent was actually how Qatol figured out I was mafia since our side's hits were so delayed (the others had to sent them in actually since I wasn't around).
BC and Qatol both knew how long I'd be gone before the game began. I specifically asked to not be mafia so I wouldn't be a hindrance but it was forgotten.
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On May 08 2009 08:29 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2009 08:23 Ver wrote:On May 08 2009 08:08 Malongo wrote:On May 08 2009 08:06 Ver wrote:On May 08 2009 08:02 Qatol wrote: Excuse me... I only had 2 blues roleclaim to me. Vivi57 and Showtime! Both of these we pegged on behavior analysis beforehand anyway. Lucas and 3clipse figured out Pyrr's role from their billion PM's but we never got a direct roleclaim from anyone that we didn't already know. Oh and btw my absences were legit up until the last two days when I didn't need to post since it was game over. I did not want to be mafia since I knew I'd have very little time, but alas that was not to be the case. In addition the game started half a week earlier than it was originally planned to be. you liar you never miss to play when you are townie. I had you since day 2. no kidding read the thread. And the townies have to learn to play with less pms, thats only help for the mafia. I don't lie about my absences. The two games I've been townie I've had much more time than I did this game, same with BC's first game when I was mafia and plotting all day in irc. In Caller's game I had less time and this game I barely had any until a week ago but I really didn't need to post since game was already over so I didn't bother. You're just being overly paranoid. Just like when you thought I was secretly smurfing in Chuiu's aborted game. Me being absent was actually how Qatol figured out I was mafia since our side's hits were so delayed (the others had to sent them in actually since I wasn't around). BC and Qatol both knew how long I'd be gone before the game began. I specifically asked to not be mafia so I wouldn't be a hindrance but it was forgotten. Its not about the absence. Its about what you add when you post. This time you added 0 and posted I vote Qatol do it. LOL. And about that game i didnt say YOU were smurfing i said some veterans where smurfing and I think Ace was. Well it doesnt matter really.
I didn't know Qatol was mafia at the time (I only found out well into day 2). Actually I thought he was probably the contract killer. It was simply the smart move to vote for him.
In the hour or so I had at the beginning of the game I plotted with Qatol/Incognito to set up a strategy similar to what qatol/bc/me used last game. Of course it didn't work because Qatol and I ended up being mafia and Incognito chose to hide, but it was attempted.
Much of what I do as a townie is behind the scenes anyway. I tried to do that when I came back but then people called me out so I had to post.
Of course tracing blue hits back to me is always fair game and I laughed at that post. Stick with your gut
Btw Ace wasn't smurfing then either since he saw the balance issue and didn't want to bother with it.
As for inactives...yes I agree the amount of inactives the past two games has been sickening (it would not have changed either outcome though don't kid yourselves). I wanted this game to have a 30-35 person limit and I'm going to stick with that for the future. More people=more inactives no way around it. Ideally we could have two games running at once, but that requires more hosts to step up. I'll be gone for several days- a week but hopefully we can get a mafia forum set up and work on organizing something that is effective.
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On May 08 2009 09:30 Tricode wrote: @Qatol. Yeah, cause you agreed to my other suspicions. And Ace defended jeejee so hard (with little info) that I kinda lost track of you. though i kept still looking as much as i can for evidence on you =\ it was hard.
Yeah ver wanted me to be his mouth. Though the only thing i could of kinda did think there were more mafia then 6 or 8 which was the only thing i would agree about.
He tried to increase the number to something like 8mafia each side. Which i wasn't sure about so i underestimated a little when i did mention about how many mafia were.
Though it did let me get an idea mathmatically how many mafia there were and then i figured there had to be at least 8-11 of you or something out of 36 townies that were left int he town .
What I said was true.
If mafia actually were completely separate (and not just separate for a day and a half like this game) and only had 3 KP, they would've had to have at the very least 7 members if not 8 or 9. This game would've gone completely differently if we hadn't linked up (we would've gotten killed with so few people).
It's just the premise it came from was wrong, but the town had no way of knowing that we were only temporarily kept in the dark of each other.
Btw I had to doublecheck the mafia list after I saw JeeJee's defense. That really really looked mafiaish and I'm still kinda surprised Ace defended him so hard.
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On May 08 2009 13:01 fusionsdf wrote: pretty disappointed I was hit first night.
Why was I chosen?
Behavior analysis. I barely had any time this game to analyze targets but you were basically screaming 'ima dt.' Same with Showtime but I always kill or corrupt him anyways.
Night 1 kill list was Fusion, Showtime, ilovektf, and infundibulum. I told the others to pick 3 but then they had to change to Pyrr when I wasn't around (@ Bockit- Lucas said that he felt Pyrr was DT since he paid an inordinate amount of attention to clues). Thankfully I wasn't around or I only would've put 1 hit on Pyrr!
But please don't pass it off both DTs dying night 1 unlucky; that's only going to hurt you for future games. If anyone good at behavior analysis is on mafia you will just be offed immediately if you are this obvious (@ Fusion, Pyrr did pretty well at covering himself in public but not in pm's). I mean this is the 3rd game I've heard 'lucky hits' and that's never been the case. I would have hoped people have learned by now that if blues act abnormally they will get punished.
But yes Showtime as I said earlier I really was too busy up until I came back. Not a lie.
SoG went rambo or something so we all accused him and he accused us. Was pretty bizarre. But he did get a very nice call on Vivi.
Overall though people need to stop with this blaming of dumb townies though. The town overall is pretty much the same every game; the difference is dependant on who is on what team and how much the mafia influences the town atmosphere/controls game flow. As Ace says, you can have all the right info in the world but if the mafia can influence more people your info doesn't mean anything. Medics are simply out of your control (although medic is a very hard role) but don't you dare just sit back and yell at everyone else as you are also to blame ('you' is directed @ everyone who just keeps blaming stupid townies when they are at fault too).
What we need to do is raise the overall level (because it seems pretty static especially since many players come and go). I hope the mafia forum (if it gets approved, please please!) will aid in this effort because then we can have a strategy guide stickied and have previous games easily accessible.
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On May 09 2009 04:30 Ace wrote:I agree Ver, but there were some really, really dumb plays this game. Maybe a lot of it happened because people just "dont know" how to look at the game overall and not just within their roles. Some people probably just didn't care enough to try. Either way some of the decisions this game were pretty bad. In the end I doubt it would have mattered much because Mafia played this round very well and nothing short of a miracle would have won it for the town (or a double backstab by both mafia ) ETA: I also loved the overall format of this game. I think 2 mafia families + CKs was good this time around. It gives the Mafia an element of uncertainty they have to deal with also ^_^
I don't disagree that there were dumb plays. I just argue that dumb plays happen every round whether the town wins or not. See last game, the most stacked a game has ever been. The town had everything going for them, all the top players together, an inactive mafia, a dt and capable townie getting mayor/sheriff. And even with this there were a number of stupid moves by the town, among others, the day 1 clue analysis and the pika chu bandwagoning, the 15 pages of vigi discussion, and the questioning of behavior analysis. The mafia could have seriously taken advantage of any of this (like we did this game) but they didn't and the townie inner trust proved everyone important innocent right away and managed to control things much better than people did this game.
Stuff like your amazing advice post (which needs to be stickied) can go a long way to helping to improve the overall level (because that's what needs to be done, as there are some very large gaps in player level). That's what we should be doing instead of just going 'town sucks' after every game the town loses. I don't have time for my own contribution right now but hopefully we can get a mafia forum as I think this will help people learn a lot.
Btw just for clarification, I'm pretty sure that this game the 2 mafia families were more intended of a balancing factor to the strong mafia lineup. I,e one advantage of mafia is that they can be organized from the get go, but broken into two teams from the start and having to wait a day or two for full knowledge is a big handicap and more than counteracts that player advantage. I was never under the impression that we were supposed to kill (indeed Qatol was outright lied to in this point that he could even kill a mafia). The KP/numbers were obviously not balanced at all for an actual 2 mafia game.
2 mafia is interesting but I'm not sure if it's good for the game because it promotes hiding information which reduces activity. CK's are VERY interesting (although need a significant buff).
For those who want the next game to happen, here's what we need to have done:
1) A specific, balanced format 2) A host 3) An answer to the problem of a veterans versus newbie situation. Ideally if we had two hosts we could run two games at once, an exclusive, <30-35 people veterans game, and a newbie game for everyone. I don't want to discriminate against new players since we need new players very badly since turnover is high but at the same time it's extremely hard to differentiate between say compX and SoG until a game has actually been played.
The veterans game size must be very limited or activity will just be a big issue. Much of this game's activity problem was due to finals season but it was a huge problem last game too.
My research got canceled (again ugh) so after this weekend I'll have a fair amount of time to work on these things too.
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It feels like my posts keep getting ignored. One last try, since there are still a bunch of misconceptions.
This game was not meant to be a full 2 family game. 2 mafia families with 3 KP and 5 members stand absolutely no chance in a 55 player game with that many blues. The 2 mafia families were designed as a temporary handicap by BC. Yes Qatol roleclaiming to me day 2 was earlier than BC thought but it wasn't until late day 2 that we had an irc set up. This is a much more serious handicap than you think since it neuters one of the mafia's main advantages: early organization and communication. I've already said this multiple times but no you guys keep making up your own strange interpretations that have nothing to do with the game. 2 families with 3 KP/5 people can not win in this game setup. BC was using the 2 families to hurt the mafia early on to counteract their strong player lineup. Qatol and I were both told a bunch of different things and lied to repeatedly by him to keep us in the dark. I can't say that I ever had any idea that we were supposed to kill the other mafia. Qatol was under the impression that hits on the other mafia family would be refunded (in fact it was in the rules that you couldn't hit a mafia until Bockit died). In the end we managed to make up for Bockit's death by putting forward the idea of 2 families so that went in our favor but there were a lot of things restricted by the early division. From reading L's post right now apparently the other guys thought they might've had to kill us. Which is pretty hilarious because this just showed how little both mafia knew because we kept getting deceived (I know our side did not feel that we had to kill them at all).
Guys, Qatol roleclaimed to me since he was on the verge of quitting from getting lied to repeatedly about what was going on and killing a mafia member when he was told he couldn't. If I wasn't mafia (although he had good reasons for thinking I was) the game would've been over right then. Please don't make up some phony conspiracy theories of how the mafia played so tricky allying first when they weren't supposed to.
Yeah both sides were in the dark on a lot of things. I don't like that either. I fully agree with the rest that everyone should know the rules at the very least from the start, even if they don't know the role counts or whatever. That should not be happening. Here's an example of what I mean:
+ Show Spoiler + [BC] Your intelligent enough to know im balancing the game. You will only be gimped for night 1
----------------------------------------- Original Message: [me] I just got on and saw we haven't gotten the rest of the mafia. This is really crippling (at least a -1 mafia tally), especially since none of our 5 knows how to set up an irc channel lol. I assume we have 2 godfathers which makes it about even if we got the list right after the mayor elections but we haven't. Basically we can't organize anything and I have a killer plan that must be understood and ready to be executed early day 2 night.
Even without the organizational factor (the original strength of mafia anyway) I can't see how you expect us to operate in the night without knowing. What happens if we kill a mafia on the other list? Are there 2 families and we'll never know the other one or something?
I'll send you a kill list later tonight when I have more time. But I would like some answers.
Apparently BC never planned to tell me the other family and instead just wanted to lead us along and let us find out?? He ignored the rest of my pm's and all my other questions. Although I don't like the approach he took, it wasn't terrible; it just shouldn't really be done in the future. But we had a very serious handicap (no irc, no coordination, a major plan was put into action late day 2 instead of day 1).
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On May 10 2009 05:31 Malongo wrote: @Ver All im saying is: after mafia A found mafia B there was no chance for the town. Just look at the numbers. The town should have played almost a perfect game to get a chance.
You are completely wrong, sorry.
If town played perfectly with qatol as mayor.
mayor lynch- miss day 1- hit (vote double) day 2- vigi 2x hit, lynch 2x hit (vote double) day 3- lynch 2x hit (vote double) day 4- lynch 2x hit
9 mafia dead by day 4. Assuming perfect game with qatol as mayor. Considering bockit died by mafia hands that would've been game by day 4 (which is around when mafia had pretty much victory guaranteed). Obviously you don't need a perfect game to win or anything close. With 9 potential KP, even 2 hits would've worked out ok and you could've went into late game on reasonable footing. Mafia with 4 KP is very different than mafia with 6 KP.
Double lynches, misused vigi hits. You guys had plenty of KP, just didn't use it since you had all the wrong targets and so much uncertainty. Blues didn't hide themselves well, etc.
Arguing this is kinda ridiculous. BC even gave you guys more blues than he should've (extra dt and medic).
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Will make a next game ideas thread later, but I think planning a game over 30-35 people is just going to run into the exact same inactivity issues in the past.
The more people there are, the more posts there are, and the less the average person is going to want to contribute or have time to read up.
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