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 disciple Bulgaria. June 20 2009 00:17. Posts 5598 | Profile Blog # |
The recent events around the new OSL's group selection and the forming of the Group of Death featuring JD,Flash,Effort is the main reason behind this post. You see, the group selection and the tradition behind it pre-dated the existence of KeSPa and the KeSPa ranking system. This was always a cool event ppl are looking forward to, mainly because of the trash talking and the development of many progaming rivalries such as stork-bisu, hwasin bisu and before nada-oov, midas-savior etc. Its all good but every once in a while, there is a group in the OSL or in the MSL which is super stacked with top players, fighting for the 2 tickets for the next round. Last MSL, this was hwasin,fbh, jd, flash and today is the Group A of Bacchus OSL 2009. So is these groups actually any good? Well behind the enormous hype there is the huge possibility that one or more of the games could end up with cheese and a top player might get eliminated. We keep saying that Bo1 is not a way to settle the score between two rivals and a Bo5 is the way to decide the things when it comes to 2 rivals of JD/Flash caliber. Many point that the elimination system is fair, and it really is, but why allowing the top players to meat each other in the Ro16/32 anyway?
What is exactly a top player when it comes to StarCraft? Well it doesnt have anything to do with the so called KeSPa ranking, which actually should illustrate the skills and the power of the players - but until this MSL, the ranking was completely useless. Yes, it represented the players' performance with some kind of weird scoring system, but thats it. Unlike any other ranking system the KeSPa one wasn't used for any other things, besides the showing off- look at me, I'm the #1 in the Rank. My point is the ranking was completely irrelevant when it came to forming the tournaments bracket for the individual leagues, what actually made the ranking completely meaningless. One can say that the 4 seeded guys in the OSL are very highly placed in KeSPa as well, which makes the seeds representative, but this will be wrong. The ranking is based on the player's performance in OSL MSL and PL. If we have to make another lame sport analogy the best thing to do is to turn on to the tennis, because just like starcraft, the ranking for the tennis is individual. The great thing about the bracket system in tennis is that it doesnt allow federer and nadal to face until the finals. You might fear that if the same rule became used for starcraft tournaments, the groups will become a dull playing ground for the top seeded players, and guys like Jaedong will get their free ticket to the next round. Its not exactly like that, because starcraft is much more competitive than tennis and the skill gap between the top 3 and the rest best 10 players is not so big. And further below I will show you that the groups, based on KeSPa ranks are not exactly dull.
Lets come back to the chase. So a guy is #3 in KeSPa and by the scoring system of this ranking should be 3rd most powerful player at the moment, but so what? The ranking doesnt help this player to be seeded and to have advantage because of his top spot. Players have been picking up their opponents on personal matter since ages, and because a top player gets outed pretty early in early stage, the rest of the tournament suffers a lot. Thats why we ended up with JangBi vs Luxury last MSL, not that they are so bad, but the way I see it it was a huge upset and a loss that Jaedong have to leave to competition so early, because of Bisu or anything else. So you might think that the current OSL group selection gives us amazing "group of death"s which wont happen if the brackets was based on the KeSpa rank, but you will be wrong. Here are the results of today's group selection:
Group A
 Jaedong
EffOrt
 Flash
YellOw[ArnC]
Group B
fantasy
 BackHo
type-b
Stork
Group C
Bisu
go.go
Hwasin
ZerO
Group D
by.hero
Leta
Kwanro
Canata
If you apply a bracket rule based on the ranking it will be smth like that (KR stands for Kespa rank)
Group A
KR 1,8,9,16
Group B
KR 2,7,10,15
Group C
KR 3,6,11,14
Group D
KR 4,5,12,13
this small example shows that the eventual Group A would consist Jaedong, JangBi, Yarnc and Hiya, but because JangBi and Hiya are not in the tournament to fill the spot all we have to do is to search for the next player based on the ranking, which is actually in the tournament. So if you do that the groups we would end up with are going to be:
Group A:
Jaedong, EffOrt, Yarnc, Kwanro
Group B:
Bisu, ZerO, go.go, Hwasin (see the difference?)
Group C:
Flash, Leta, BackHo, Canata
Group D:
fantasy, Stork , by.hero, type-b
The groups are still very interesting and actually not so different, but the major thing is that Flash and Jaedong are separated which again makes complete sense. One again may argue that its unfair towards by.hero to take away his seed. But lets make the tennis analogy again and have a look at Rolland Garros. This year's finals was Robin Soderling, and following the starcraft logic, he should be seed #2 next year. Which is a total bullshit - he indeed may be the second seed if he climbs up the year ranking but until then there is no reason for federer or Nadal, not to take this spot. With the same line of thought, by.hero might got to the semi-final last year but his overall performance in all other tournaments and his ranking therefor is not enough to back-up his high seed, it just doesnt make any sense.
The simple ranking based bracket wont hurt the quality of the games in group stage - the competition is too strong, so this simple rule can only help, by at least separating the 4 best players by default... What do you think? Last edit: 2009-06-20 00:24:03 |
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 Geo.Rion Hungary. June 20 2009 00:24. Posts 3194 | Profile Blog # |
first i thought it's bullshit, but as you gave this example it's quite reasonable
Although you fucked up the first group
because JangBi and fake yellow are not in the tournament to fill the spot all we have to do is to search for the next player based on the ranking, which is actually in the tournament
Fake yellow is in the tournament, Hiya is not |
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 Crucifix June 20 2009 00:25. Posts 2722 | Profile Blog # |
| Maybe You're somekinda right but I think that the actual groups will consist of far more exciting games. |
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| disciple Bulgaria. June 20 2009 00:28. Posts 5598 | Profile Blog # |
On June 20 2009 00:24 Geo.Rion wrote:
first i thought it's bullshit, but as you gave this example it's quite reasonable
Although you fucked up the first group
because JangBi and fake yellow are not in the tournament to fill the spot all we have to do is to search for the next player based on the ranking, which is actually in the tournament
Fake yellow is in the tournament, Hiya is not
Its fixed, sorry about that. My hole point is that the KeSPa rank is useless right now, and maybe the group stages will be slightly less interesting but tell me a competition where the Ro32 is supposed to be the most interesting part of the tournament? The bracket rule will make the further stages more exciting which is exactly the point of every tournament |
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 konadora  Singapore. June 20 2009 00:28. Posts 28547 | Profile Blog # |
If the players have a high ranking, then they are expected to play according to their ranks. It's not like they became top 5 without showing any good improvement/play. So, I only see it natural that if they can't adapt well, look down on other 'lower ranked' opponents in their group, etc, they will lose.
If all four are top players, then of course, it'll be sad to see two of them being eliminated early, but they could have prevented that if they had performed well in the previous season (and hence being able to choose his groups according to his will, although I think for this, the MSL system works better). It also could lead to a rather less-exciting finals (aka Luxury vs Jangbi), but that's also once again the players' fault for not performing according to the expectations of top S-Class players.
I suppose you're talking about implementing the KeSPA rankings into the OSL selection process? I remember reading somewhere that this was being done in the MSL where the top KeSPA ranking player from each team get auto-seeded or something.Last edit: 2009-06-20 00:29:58 |
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 vx70GTOJudgexv United States. June 20 2009 00:30. Posts 2707 | Profile Blog # |
So basically... you're bitching about a guaranteed group of top players?
They wanted that group, and that's the way it is.
It creates great groups for us to watch, and yeah, not everyone's going to make it to the Round of 8, but oh well.
Your Roland Garros analogy sucks, btw. If the guy earned it, why should it be taken away from him. The other player should've played better if he really wanted that seed.
Like was said in the LR thread, one cheese won't mean Jaedong's out of the OSL. Groups of death are always looked forward to by many. It puts top caliber players against each other. Look at the MSL Ro32 group that just went down (fantasy/Movie/Jaedong/Leta). 3 of those 4 players are probably favorites in the MSL, and it produced 3 of the best games I've seen in a while. |
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 spydernoob Canada. June 20 2009 00:34. Posts 1065 | Profile Blog # |
| getting rid of the group selection would far outweigh the benifits of eliminating a group of death, id rather see the group selection then maybe 1 more top caliber player. |
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| disciple Bulgaria. June 20 2009 00:35. Posts 5598 | Profile Blog # |
On June 20 2009 00:30 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:
So basically... you're bitching about a guaranteed group of top players?
They wanted that group, and that's the way it is.
It creates great groups for us to watch, and yeah, not everyone's going to make it to the Round of 8, but oh well.
Your Roland Garros analogy sucks, btw. If the guy earned it, why should it be taken away from him. The other player should've played better if he really wanted that seed.
Like was said in the LR thread, one cheese won't mean Jaedong's out of the OSL. Groups of death are always looked forward to by many. It puts top caliber players against each other. Look at the MSL Ro32 group that just went down (fantasy/Movie/Jaedong/Leta). 3 of those 4 players are probably favorites in the MSL, and it produced 3 of the best games I've seen in a while.
Are the groups based on ranking so different, and so boring ? And second of all the Rolland Garros seeding represents the players performance for the hole year, not only the last rolland garros. Simple example - Rock makes it to the semis in OSL - gets a seed for next year, right. On the other hand he is not in the MSL and goes for 2-30 in PL. Jaedong is to the OSL going to the prelims, but in the same season he wins the MSL and is 50-10 in PL. Is Rock's seed justified? Should've JD played better if he really wanted that seed ? |
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| raga4ka Bulgaria. June 20 2009 00:35. Posts 2906 | Profile # |
| It's based on how well the players did last OSL and i think its right . Other tournaments shouldn't matter . If by.hero won OSL last time , but didn't do anything in the other tournaments and was ranked a # 20 or 10 Kespa and he shouldn't be a seed in the tournament he won its just stupid imo . Most players just hope to get top 16 or top 3 to get seeded so that they won't go through the hardest part of the tournament in the early stage and can play the person they are confirtable playing first . Last edit: 2009-06-20 00:42:26 |
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| konadora Singapore. June 20 2009 00:38. Posts 28547 | Profile Blog # |
On June 20 2009 00:35 disciple wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 00:30 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:
So basically... you're bitching about a guaranteed group of top players?
They wanted that group, and that's the way it is.
It creates great groups for us to watch, and yeah, not everyone's going to make it to the Round of 8, but oh well.
Your Roland Garros analogy sucks, btw. If the guy earned it, why should it be taken away from him. The other player should've played better if he really wanted that seed.
Like was said in the LR thread, one cheese won't mean Jaedong's out of the OSL. Groups of death are always looked forward to by many. It puts top caliber players against each other. Look at the MSL Ro32 group that just went down (fantasy/Movie/Jaedong/Leta). 3 of those 4 players are probably favorites in the MSL, and it produced 3 of the best games I've seen in a while.
Are the groups based on ranking so different, and so boring ? And second of all the Rolland Garros seeding represents the players performance for the hole year, not only the last rolland garros. Simple example - Rock makes it to the semis in OSL - gets a seed for next year, right. On the other hand he is not in the MSL and goes for 2-30 in PL. Jaedong is to the OSL going to the prelims, but in the same season he wins the MSL and is 50-10 in PL. Is Rock's seed justified? Should've JD played better if he really wanted that seed ?
If Rock played well and JD played bad, yes. |
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 Plexa Administrator June 20 2009 00:38. | Profile Blog # |
| OSL doesn't have a problem. MSL does, and always will. |
| | ~ Spirit will set you free ~ |  |
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| Plexa Administrator June 20 2009 00:39. | Profile Blog # |
If you want to have a look at what seeding by KeSPA rank does look at GOM ffs.
Well it doesnt have anything to do with the so called KeSPa ranking, which actually should illustrate the skills and the power of the players
This is a complete lie. If this were true, why does the elo ranking look different? or the power rank for that matter.Last edit: 2009-06-20 00:40:41 |
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| disciple Bulgaria. June 20 2009 00:40. Posts 5598 | Profile Blog # |
On June 20 2009 00:35 raga4ka wrote:
It's based on how well the players did last OSL and i think its right . Other tournaments shouldn't matter . If by.hero won OSL last time , but didn't do anything in the other tournaments and was ranked a # 20 or 15 Kespa and he shouldn't be a seed in the tournament he won its just stupid imo .
Why its stupid and even if it is, your statement again just shows how pointless the KeSPa ranking is. First of all you cant win a major title and be #20 in the Ranking, such-a nonsense is possible only in Starcraft. If OSL and MSL are using only the performance of the players from the last tournaments as a base for the their bracked building why the KeSPa ranking exists anyway? Last edit: 2009-06-20 00:41:27 |
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| vx70GTOJudgexv United States. June 20 2009 00:40. Posts 2707 | Profile Blog # |
On June 20 2009 00:35 disciple wrote:
Are the groups based on ranking so different, and so boring ?
Yes they are.
Group A showed that all three of those players with picks are fucking CONFIDENT in what they can do, and I doubt will see 6 cheeses. I'm thinking more along 6 awesome games. Ranking the groups based on KeSPA ranking takes an element out of it that you're missing: character.
Bisu and fantasy made it clear they enjoy picking bitch opponents.
Jaedong, EffOrt and Flash can go down for having balls of steel, or for absolutely shooting themselves in the foot.
go.go called Hwasin Insurance, setting up what's sure to be an awesome match between the two.
by.hero made a statement picking Leta.
If we're ranking them based on KeSPA ranks, you don't HAVE that element, and not having a group of death sucks too.
Last edit: 2009-06-20 00:41:35 |
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| Plexa Administrator June 20 2009 00:41. | Profile Blog # |
| News flash: KeSPA rank is, and always has been, a useless ranking. |
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| vx70GTOJudgexv United States. June 20 2009 00:41. Posts 2707 | Profile Blog # |
On June 20 2009 00:41 Plexa wrote:
News flash: KeSPA rank is, and always has been, a useless ranking.
QFT |
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| disciple Bulgaria. June 20 2009 00:43. Posts 5598 | Profile Blog # |
On June 20 2009 00:41 Plexa wrote:
News flash: KeSPA rank is, and always has been, a useless ranking.
Bravo, sir, you finally saw what is my hole point. If you organize a tourmanents, and make a ranking for the player you HAVE to apply the ranking in someway |
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| Plexa Administrator June 20 2009 00:45. | Profile Blog # | |
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| konadora Singapore. June 20 2009 00:46. Posts 28547 | Profile Blog # |
On June 20 2009 00:43 disciple wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 20 2009 00:41 Plexa wrote:
News flash: KeSPA rank is, and always has been, a useless ranking.
Bravo, sir, you finally saw what is my hole point. If you organize a tourmanents, and make a ranking for the player you HAVE to apply the ranking in someway
I don't think it's really that important. The rankings are just a status to show who has officially better records/win-loss ratio/etc than others, nothing more.
iirc Tiger Woods sometimes didn't make the cut in tournaments too. |
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 Glioburd France. June 20 2009 00:47. Posts 308 | Profile # |
| Poor yarnc, it will be really hard for him. |
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