 zatic Germany. June 30 2009 05:13. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
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Starcraft 2 at Blizzcon Regional Finals in Cologne
This SC2 analysis is based on the build Blizzard presented at the WC3 Regional Finals in Cologne. According to Blizzard the build was from around mid May. There have been some minor changes since in the build shown last Monday in Irvine, but nothing ground breaking. Banelings have been buffed even more but roaches move to Lair in return. I don't think this changes much about the gameplay.
From what I can tell from talks with LastRomantic and from comparing the tech trees, everything else seems to be similar.
I had two full days to test play SC2 at the event, and thankfully there where a couple of decent players there so you could actually test builds and units in a competitive setting.
First of all, and I know this has been said before, but: This is Starcraft. You are not playing Warcraft 4, from the first second on this feels like Starcraft. Oh, and it looks gorgeous. The graphics were considerably improved from the last time I played it, especially Zerg now look and feel very zergish. Battles are fast and gory, but you can still understand what is going on. Most death animations are gone. Some minor details need work still, for example the archon attack animation, but all in all it looks good.
And it is a hell lot of fun to play. You can use your Broodwar skills right away, and just learning the game as you play worked very well. Most UI accesses are intuitive and unobtrusive. It's great to see old tactics from Broodwar in the new look, like the Zerg fast expansion, the notorious bunker rushes, or the deadly dark templar. And then there are the fun new units in action like marauders, immortals, and banelings (excellent unit for broadcasted games, in a Grubby vs Steven Chang match the whole crowd was cheering Boooom! Boooom! Booom! each time a baneling tore apart a group of marines). Also the game is very macro heavy, probably even more so than before. You see huge armies clash and arrays of barracks or gateways blinking away.
Macro mechanics
A quick word about MBS: I am really OK with it now. You will find that you want to hotkey individual hatcheries or raxxes anyway since you want to build drones at specific hatcheries and use your tech addons efficiently as Terran. Protoss actually really just needs their one hotkey to macro everything though.
Now, let's get to what is new in this build since Blizzcon, most importantly: The new macro mechanics. I was reluctant first, but they really make sense and really add to the game without making it inaccessible to casual players. I still don't like auto-mining, because just everyone has a bombing economy now with virtually zero effort, but at least you can get a little extra out of superior mechanics. You can tell Blizzard tries to balance this out, and I have to say good job with those new mechanics. Compared to the horrible gas mechanic from Blizzcon, those new ideas are a good compromise. Still, here is some criticism to that:
You 1a2a3a fans will love this: The Protoss mechanic is incredibly cheap compared to the other two races'. Protoss can build a dark pylon for 200 minerals. It works just like a pylon, but has energy that can be used to cast a spell that makes your probes gather 6 resources instead of 5 at once. Two dark pylons are enough to keep your mining at a constant 6 per probe rate, given you don't miss the spell cycle. So with a regular click-R-click you can really speed up your economy.
Now compare that to Terran. Terran can call down the mule from the command center once it has the Comsat addon. Mule calldown has a cooldown, so again, if you practise this you can call down constant mules. Mules gather alongside SCV, but can mine a patch even if another worker is still on there mining, which gives Terran an extra bonus on high yield minerals. Mules disappear after a while.
Here is the problem now: You do click-C-click to call down the mule. But then it takes about four seconds for the call down animation (drop pod) to finish. Only after that you can select the mule and tell it to start mining. In a competitive setting of course you can't wait four seconds, so you would have to do two CC cycles for each round of mules. Twice as much the effort and room for slip ups than Protoss has. This is easily fixable though *1.
Zerg has the queen. The queen can be built with pool tech (but interestingly does not require larvae to be built), costs 150 minerals and is a combined range attacker and spell caster. It can "Inject" extra larvae into a hatchery. About 30 seconds later, three extra larvae spawn at once, and you can immediately inject again, no cool down or energy required here *2. Normal larvae spawning continues even if the three additional are there.
This does not look terrific at first glance, as you still have to morph drones from the larvae, and that costs money, right? Well, actually the queen fundamentally changes the way Zerg is played in SC2 now, something I will expand on later.
Micro
The first day for me was about trying out new things like the mechanics and new units and tech trees. I quickly noticed something bad though, and I am really disappointed and worried that Blizzard did not do anything about it since Blizzcon: The units still don't react fast enough. As Chill described it last year, there is certain latency built into the unit handling, which makes proper micro impossible. This is something that really needs to be addressed by Blizzard as it severely hurts the gameplay.
Take wraiths in Brood War: They are fragile, weak units, but they are fast. And, in the hands of a good Terran player, can become a dangerous tool against Zerg. That is because they can be microed very very well. Not only because of unit stacking, but because how instantly they react to attack and turn commands, without any slowing down.
In SC2, there is a similar unit, the banshee. It's air to ground and does more damage than the wraith, so you would think this could be an incredible weapon. However, it has this acceleration and deceleration built in, that make it similar to the valkyrie in terms of responsiveness and microability. In consequence, the Banshee falls victim to its weak HPs and is quickly shot down if you try to actually deal damage with it. Their cloaking is T3 tech, so I can't really think of a viable build involving banshees in a real, even game. Which is a shame, because if you could just handle them correctly, that would change instantly and, again, it would reward the better players without making the game inaccessible.
This is only an example, many units have this problem, with little exception. The mutalisk handles differently. I think Browder really wanted mutalisk micro back in the game and made the developers build in better handling for the mutalisk. You can move and shoot with them much better than with other units, the effect is noticeable. However, if it works for the mutalisk, why not take out the clumsiness from other units as well? In my opinion this should have priority over anything else at the moment. Half of BW's Pimpest Plays are only possible because units handle so well. They freed up time and attention with MBS and automining, why not allow players to invest that in better micro? Everyone would benefit, especially Starcraft as a spectator sport. Even in a game so hugely macro heavy as Starcraft, we all love to watch the Pros perform ridiculous unit stunts.
There is another thing that hinders micro, and it also has been brought up multiple times: The melee AI or auto-surround. I don't know if this got worse or if it was just more noticeable than at Blizzcon. Let me give you an example: My very first game I played a ZvP and spotted the P doing a forge-first FE. I had overpooled and immediately tried a run-by with slow lings. I got 5 lings into his main before his gate even started. In Broodwar, this should be game. Now here is the problem: If I targeted a probe at the edge of the mineral line with my 5 lings, only 1 ling would actually attack that probe. The other lings automatically spread out to other targets. Thus not only does the targeted probe not die, but my lings run deeper into the mineral line. If P now a-moves, the auto-surround works in his favour, all his 12 probes will quickly try to surround my lings and I can't escape with the few that ran into the probe line, so I lose one. This happened every time I tried to snipe a probe. It is so incredibly frustrating when your units just do not do what you tell them to.
Another example of this is defending with lings against a 2 gate with 1 or 2 probes. If you try to target the probe, again, only 1 ling will attack it, the other spread out and each attacks one zealot, exactly what Protoss wants. Similarly you can't target damaged zealots, again the lings will be spread evenly among the zealots. Initially this made Zerg appear doomed against Protoss as you just couldn't defend against a 2 gate with lings only.
This could be easily avoided if auto-surround only activates when you a-move clicking on the map, not focussing a single unit.
Zerg vs Protoss
I mentioned how different Zerg plays now compared to Broodwar because of the Queen. Reconsider this larvae mechanic: In Starcraft, Zerg has one additional resource to manage, larvae. You want to build your hatchery first for the additional larvae. Of course more larvae comes at a price as each hatchery is 300 minerals and a drone gone.
Now, in SC2, with the Queen mechanic, you essentially get twice as many larvae per hatchery. Now the Queen costs 150 minerals, but that is a one time cost. And you can skip a lot of lings because of that, since Queen and lings effectively defend against P or T rushes. This means you save literally hundreds of minerals in the early game if you stay at 2 hatcheries and larvae macro properly. And those minerals can be reinvested in drones. The effect is dramatic, especially vs Protoss. In the build we had, forge first was not viable. Speed zerglings and roaches and/or banelings were too strong too quickly. Two gate pressure is actually easily defended after all with a Queen in the mix. This means Zerg can safely expand, Protoss can not. Zerg can skip lings and pump drones at a insane rate early in the game, and then switch to a booming zergling/roach production, which just overpowers Protoss.
Against the end of the second day Protoss tried to find a way to counter this, but there was none in this build. I watched Protoss there do some truly impressive force field micro tricks, but they were just hopelessly overwhelmed by the masses of lings and roaches. You can't stop the Zerg from expanding, and the masses of roaches and zerglings hit before the higher tech units like DT, storm or colossus are available. I mean you could probably build 10 cannons, but then Zerg just expands again. Against the end this was probably the most obvious imbalance in the build.
Now I am not saying I don't like this queen mechanic, not at all, I love it. But it shows that balancing it will be very tough. And we just timed hatches and queens however we felt like, with some proper research you could surely optimise this to get safe Zerg openings that would kick start your economy even better. The whole larvae mechanic made Zerg a whole lot more interesting.
I heard Zerg is weakest in Blizzard inhouse testing, and I am wondering whether they are really exploring the potential of the queen (they are not judging from BR#3).
Since every competitive game later that weekend ended in Protoss being overrun it's hard to judge how they do in a "fair" fight. A few key things though: Dark templar are a nightmare for Zerg. You just have to build Spores everywhere, individually upgrading your Overlords to be detectors and placing them correctly is so much effort just to not die to 1 unit. However, DT tech is way later than in Broodwar, usually Zerg can prepare.
Mutas are very strong against Protoss, archons seem to be the only direct counter. With a properly timed muta build you can keep your opponent at home for a long time. And since there are no corsairs you can probably just keep buildings mutas.
The colossus finally rapes. Like, really. It has a range upgrade which out ranges everything except the siege tank. With +1 attack it one-shots workers, marines, and zerglings. It is incredibly expensive though and takes forever to build - and it still needs a lot of support troops.
Ultralisks were very disappointing. One game I had a Broodwar game ending army of 12 ultras and 50 lings. They just disappeared charging into the Protoss army.
Protoss vs Terran
There is not much to say about TvP as not much has changed since last time. Similar to Blizzcon, this matchup seems very balanced. Basically it can be summed up with "make a lot of units". On the Terran side it's all about marauders, supported by marines and ghosts (EMP). Protoss fields zealots, stalkers and immortals (which are beastly!), supported by storm and later colossus.
Early marine/marauder (zatic build :-)) is still very strong against Protoss although zealots seem to be better against it this time. Oh, and Charge seemed even stronger this time, it's like the zealots just teleport into your infantry forces.
Mid game battles are nice to watch, Terran trying to place perfect EMPs and Protoss trying to fry masses of marines in psi storm.
Something I missed from Broodwar TvP is that BW TvP is so unforgiving to wrong unit combinations. You don't have enough vultures, your entire tank army just vanishes and the game is over. In SC2 TvP unit composition is not nearly as important.
Terran vs Zerg
Like Blizzcon: TvZ has become so weird. With medivacs, reapers, and raven (the new Science Vessel) Terran has the most mobile forces of all three races. Surprise reaper raids are devastating. They throw those mines that blow up after two seconds and are enough to kill of buildings with a couple of volleys. The mines come with a 20 second cool down. The pistols tear apart lings and drones. On LT it was pitiful to watch Zerg being demolished by reapers which would just jump on the cliff without taking hits, throw a volley of mines down on the defenders, jump back and kill drones in seconds.
With good multitasking you could harass the Zerg endlessly while you take your nat, get marine upgrades, 5 raxxes and 2 ports and start pumping medivac/marine.
Upgraded and stim'd marines just kill everything Z throws at you. All the nice baneling tricks don't matter at that stage because Terran just drops huge armies all the time. Why would they walk, their entire late game army just flies from base to base. Add the raven to the mix and Zerg is really screwed late game. Raven can drop auto-turrets with cool down, if you have your raven cloud late game and the multitasking you can cover the map in auto-turrets.
That is not to say that the matchup is really imbalanced though. Zerg just can't get lazy and can't let Terran build up this tech. Early ling / baneling pressure is a serious threat to Terran and forces them to build a lot of marines and spend a lot of attention just to defend. 2 banelings kill a depot and 1 a group of marines. You have to be very carefull early. And then there is the nydus of course. Don't pay attention for 10 seconds and your entire back base blows up in baneling acid. So threatening nydus / baneling backstabs is probably the most effective method to keep the Terran at home for a while. Still, Zerg will need something to counter those masses of flying marines even in the late game. In short, Zerg needs scourge back and everything would be fine :-).
Useless units
Finally, this is a real problem still: There are units in the game that are just useless in a competitive setup, especially with Terran. Most prominent example is the hellion. It looks decent on paper - combined firebat and vulture? However, it does so little damage that you need 5+ do accomplish anything. And then it is impossible to micro, because it attacks in a continuous stream of fire, and only when standing still. There is simply no game situation where you would get to that critical mass of Hellions in time to deal significant damage.
Similarly with banshees. 6 or 7 of them 1 shot anything on the ground - but you will never be able to build that many in a typical game.
My explanation is that Terran infantry is just too good against anything. There is no metal anymore, it's either marines or marauders.
I hate to say it but even the Siege Tank felt kind of unnecessary. It was not really useless like the hellion but it was questionable if it's worth the money for Factories and addons.
Summary
Hell lot of fun to play, but serious work still needs to be done on the micro issues. Very promising beta adjustments ahead with the new Zerg larvae mechanics. Balancing and adjustments need to make useless units more viable. Terran has the most potential to be abused by good multitaskers. Protoss is still easy mode (haha) and has very good tech but suffers from strong timing attacks.
I could continue writing endlessly about everything but I only wanted to cover what changed since Blizzcon. Please ask any questions about the current gameplay in the comments though I will answer as best as I can.
Updates
Corrections to the macro description some users pointed out:
*1) You can call down mules directly on minerals, and they will start mining immediately
*2) Inject larvae is 25 energy but I guess that just recharges in time since I never ran out of queen energyLast edit: 2009-07-01 02:46:03 |
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 Trezeguet23 United States. June 30 2009 06:36. Posts 751 | Profile Blog |
| wow great article, quit making everyone so jealous |
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 EximoSua June 30 2009 06:38. Posts 108 | Profile |
| Very nice read. Quite excited! |
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 Psyonic_Reaver United States. June 30 2009 06:41. Posts 1244 | Profile Blog |
| This was a VERY nice write-up Zatic. Thank you for taking the time to write this out. <3 |
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 geenobu Germany. June 30 2009 06:44. Posts 86 | Profile |
thanks for the article, damn zerg needs some serious adjustments, and I call it here: scourge will be back when beta starts! They just have to  |
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 JWD United States. June 30 2009 06:47. Posts 6525 | Profile Blog |
| Thanks zatic, I really enjoyed reading your opinions here |
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 rytas Sweden. June 30 2009 06:55. Posts 105 | Profile |
Interesting write-up there  |
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| OgerAffe Germany. June 30 2009 06:55. Posts 10 | Profile | |
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| pieisamazing United States. June 30 2009 06:55. Posts 40 | Profile |
| First page!! Always good to read some new stuff about SC2. |
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| Theclutch United States. June 30 2009 06:56. Posts 40 | Profile | |
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| Mania[K]al United States. June 30 2009 06:57. Posts 96 | Profile |
| So, the contradicting Dark pylon explanations from LR and Zatic are fun to read. |
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 motbob United States. June 30 2009 06:57. Posts 4398 | Profile Blog |
"Most death animations are gone"
YES |
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 zobz Canada. June 30 2009 06:58. Posts 1467 | Profile |
| Good writeup. Hopefully they're aware of the things you mentioned and not clueless and incapable of figuring out those problems for themselves, like your comment about the last battle report seems to possibly suggest. But if that is the case i suppose they'll figure it out after beta. |
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| HyoSang United States. June 30 2009 07:00. Posts 149 | Profile Blog |
siiiiccckkkk...
although I really wish they would still give zerg some more interesting spell-casting units besides the queen and infestor. |
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| XsebT Denmark. June 30 2009 07:00. Posts 173 | Profile Blog |
| Thank you very much for keeping us updated! This thing that worry me the most of the things mentioned is the unit lag. I'm not that worried about the balance stuff, as I think blizzard will handle it very well both during the beta and when the actual game comes out; a game is never perfect. |
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| omfghi2u2 United States. June 30 2009 07:00. Posts 542 | Profile Blog |
| very very interesting read |
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 aqui Germany. June 30 2009 07:05. Posts 381 | Profile Blog |
| i would like to add that nullifier forcefields+ collosus with range are extremly sick. |
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 Osmoses Sweden. June 30 2009 07:07. Posts 673 | Profile Blog |
I'd be fine with you continuing your writing endlessly. Very, very fun read.
Edit: I'd love for zerglings to be upgradeable to banelings early game and to scourge late game, which is actually how I felt it should have worked in sc1.Last edit: 2009-06-30 07:09:42 |
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 Last Romantic United States. June 30 2009 07:09. Posts 19506 | Profile Blog |
| The build shown in California is more up-to-date insofar as the Dark Pylon is concerned. Blizzard testers considered the DP too imbalanced if it was also a pylon. |
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 PeAcY6969 France. June 30 2009 07:13. Posts 474 | Profile |
| Thanks zatic |
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| Baytuts Brazil. June 30 2009 07:14. Posts 40 | Profile |
very nice write-up... great job and thanks for the effort =D
and let the siege tank retake his role |
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 Jonoman92 United States. June 30 2009 07:14. Posts 3764 | Profile Blog |
| Thanks for the write-up. Nice to know how sc2 is going so far. |
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| Raistlin Sweden. June 30 2009 07:14. Posts 65 | Profile | |
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| Motiva United States. June 30 2009 07:15. Posts 1024 | Profile |
I haven't played the game yet 
I however do agree about the latency in unit movement animations needs to be completely removed... This was a massive problem in WC3 (for me) and it's absolutely integral to the Starcraft feel. |
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| ManWithCheese Canada. June 30 2009 07:17. Posts 173 | Profile |
| About tanks I think its a very good change to not make tanks "needed". As far as im concerned tanks are the worst unit in starcraft because of how they drastically change game play for the worse and im happy to see this is not the same for starcraft 2. Last edit: 2009-06-30 07:19:32 |
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| DarkShadowz Sweden. June 30 2009 07:17. Posts 149 | Profile |
| Intelligent and well written. Thanks a ton. |
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| HuskyTheHusky United States. June 30 2009 07:19. Posts 2185 | Profile Blog |
What is with all the cooldowns?
This isnt WoW... |
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| ManWithCheese Canada. June 30 2009 07:20. Posts 173 | Profile |
On June 30 2009 07:19 HuskyTheHusky wrote:
What is with all the cooldowns?
This isnt WoW...
You're right ones a mmorpg and ones a rts, also starcraft 1 had cooldowns. |
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 Teejing Germany. June 30 2009 07:22. Posts 403 | Profile |
What abilties does a queen start with/can upgrade?
Almost seems like 12h>11p>13queen is the one and only build since its the best eco-build and also strong vs harass? O_o |
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| FireFly Germany. June 30 2009 07:28. Posts 22 | Profile |
| I totally agree with zatic about TvZ gameplay. Zerg needs lurcks on t2 or scourge back to counter mass rine drops. (maybe I just write this, because I lost to zatic using this build^^) |
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| aqui Germany. June 30 2009 07:29. Posts 381 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 07:22 Teejing wrote:
What abilties does a queen start with/can upgrade?
Almost seems like 12h>11p>13queen is the one and only build since its the best eco-build and also strong vs harass? O_o
overpool ->queen->hatch is better. queen is build fast, cheaper and gives you the same amount of drones as the hatch.
Besides the larvae injection the queen can lay something that expands the creep.The upgraded queen can cast a "Bladeswarm"which is about as big as a dark swarm, controlable and deals damage. |
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| DragoonPK Bahrain. June 30 2009 07:29. Posts 1460 | Profile Blog |
| Great read, thanks for your time and effort zatic ! |
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 StorrZerg United States. June 30 2009 07:30. Posts 3837 | Profile Blog |
great read!
zatic you are the man |
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| zatic Germany. June 30 2009 07:33. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 07:22 Teejing wrote:
What abilties does a queen start with/can upgrade?
Almost seems like 12h>11p>13queen is the one and only build since its the best eco-build and also strong vs harass? O_o
Depends on what you want to do. 12 hatch is not really needed since you can't saturate the natural as fast anyway and you just don't need the hatch for the larvae. So pool first will give you faster tech and you can still get the larvae from the queen.
But as I mentioned you would have to try out all pool / hatch / queen combinations to get the optimal drone output.
Queen abilities see aqui's post |
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| fishyjoes Germany. June 30 2009 07:34. Posts 468 | Profile Blog |
OMG IM SO GODDAMN STUPID T_____T I even got the EMail from Blizzard about the tourney but I ignored it. I could have played SC2 this week end.... NOOOOOO T___T
Edit: Hey, thanks a lot Zatic for this great write up!Last edit: 2009-06-30 08:05:56 |
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| boesthius United States. June 30 2009 07:34. Posts 3475 | Profile Blog |
Sickkkkk, thanks a lot for this writeup zatic; I'm loving all the information. I'm glad you delved into the "useless" units part of the game and the lack of on-the-spot micro. The micro part is the thing that concerns me the most - especially the auto-surround. I really hope blizz does something about this; even, as you said, making it so a-move only surrounds while specific targeting does not would make it that much better. I'm super concerned about that, I hope it gets updated or fixed because I love to micro in sc and I find it's my strongest aspect of the game .
Thanks a lot, again, for this zatic . |
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 fanatacist Angola. June 30 2009 07:34. Posts 9486 | Profile Blog |
| Thanks for your analysis I really feel like I have an idea of what needs to be done/is currently going on in SC2. |
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| Xinliben United States. June 30 2009 07:35. Posts 68 | Profile | |
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 never_toss Costa Rica. June 30 2009 07:38. Posts 804 | Profile Blog |
Thanks Zatic...
its a shame TvP isnt mech anymore T_T |
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| zatic Germany. June 30 2009 07:39. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 06:55 OgerAffe wrote:I thought that too friday and saturday, but yesterday evening ive noticed that u can call down mules directly on a mineral patch and they start collecting then on their own, u dont have to give them a extra order and thats good .D
Oh ok that makes sense. I tried various shift-mine combinations but just dropping them on minerals didn't cross my mind haha. |
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| adelarge June 30 2009 07:41. Posts 285 | Profile |
Thanks zatic, for this article and for the answers in the other thread too!
I have another questions about Mules and Orbital Command. How much Mules does the ability summon at once and do they take some supply? And could two or more Mules mine from the same mineral patch? I'm asking because I was thinking if building another OC just for Mules (so you will have two in one expo) could be viable. It's rather big innitial investement (though not much bigger than 2 dark pylons 200 minerals each), but it could pay off in the long run, especially on yellow minerals...or not? |
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| calvinL Canada. June 30 2009 07:42. Posts 71 | Profile |
On June 30 2009 07:17 ManWithCheese wrote:
About tanks I think its a very good change to not make tanks "needed". As far as im concerned tanks are the worst unit in starcraft because of how they drastically change game play for the worse and im happy to see this is not the same for starcraft 2.
Tanks is what identifies Terran to me, hell even for Starcraft. Hopefully they'll be buffed enough eventually to be useful. Btw I love TvT (that aren't drawn out and end with BCs).Last edit: 2009-06-30 07:50:34 |
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| Archaic Taiwan. June 30 2009 07:43. Posts 3031 | Profile Blog |
| Wow, nice write-up. Thanks. |
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| zatic Germany. June 30 2009 07:50. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 07:41 adelarge wrote:
Thanks zatic, for this article and for the answers in the other thread too!
I have another questions about Mules and Orbital Command. How much Mules does the ability summon at once and do they take some supply? And could two or more Mules mine from the same mineral patch? I'm asking because I was thinking if building another OC just for Mules (so you will have two in one expo) could be viable. It's rather big innitial investement (though not much bigger than 2 dark pylons 200 minerals each), but it could pay off in the long run, especially on yellow minerals...or not?
I doubt it's worth spending 400 on a CC and 50/50 (?) on the comsat. But, you can call down the mules anywhere, so it makes sense to call down all mules to the high yield minerals.
You get 1 per CC so there shouldn't even be a situation where a mineral line is saturated with mules. But I thing they can mine regardless of whether an SCV or another mule is already mining. Last edit: 2009-06-30 07:59:15 |
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 Luddite United States. June 30 2009 07:53. Posts 1591 | Profile Blog |
| So it sounds like zerg is powerful in the early game and midgame, but runs out of steam in the late game. Wasn't that pretty much the way people played zerg in early brood war? Hopefully that will change with some balance patches. |
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| FabledIntegral United States. June 30 2009 08:02. Posts 791 | Profile Blog |
| I don't know why but I'm really scared of imbalance after reading this, even though he says things are relatively fine. I'm eager to explore all different possibilities though. |
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 Zzoram Canada. June 30 2009 08:14. Posts 2611 | Profile |
On June 30 2009 07:07 Osmoses wrote:
I'd be fine with you continuing your writing endlessly. Very, very fun read.
Edit: I'd love for zerglings to be upgradeable to banelings early game and to scourge late game, which is actually how I felt it should have worked in sc1.
That would at least make the Zergling wings not look stupid. Imagine if winged Zerglings could jump up and suicide into air units? |
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| Luddite United States. June 30 2009 08:15. Posts 1591 | Profile Blog |
| Does the Thor do anything, or is it just a useless unit at this point? |
| | "This is absolutely pointless and useless and I don't know what could be more retarded than this idea" Hymm, talking about my idea | |
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| s.a.y Croatia. June 30 2009 08:16. Posts 1016 | Profile Blog |
did you find any room for mothership in the build?
where they saying anything about bringing back scourge or carrier? |
| | www.myspace.com/omnipresentnoise | my life is average | |
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| Zzoram Canada. June 30 2009 08:18. Posts 2611 | Profile |
| Unit animation lag seems to be the biggest concern that they aren't addressing at the moment. |
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| invy Bosnia-Herzegovina. June 30 2009 08:18. Posts 22 | Profile |
Its simple. zerg need Dark Swarm spell, and in the right time. Todays ZvT without Dark Swarm is instant loss late game. Thinking of it, Zerg strategies vs Terran are evolved around survive-delay-defend-turtle-whatever untils dark swarm comes out. No DS == imbalance that we see in sc2.
Or for change make hidras useful vs marines...
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| adelarge June 30 2009 08:23. Posts 285 | Profile |
On June 30 2009 07:50 zatic wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 07:41 adelarge wrote:
Thanks zatic, for this article and for the answers in the other thread too!
I have another questions about Mules and Orbital Command. How much Mules does the ability summon at once and do they take some supply? And could two or more Mules mine from the same mineral patch? I'm asking because I was thinking if building another OC just for Mules (so you will have two in one expo) could be viable. It's rather big innitial investement (though not much bigger than 2 dark pylons 200 minerals each), but it could pay off in the long run, especially on yellow minerals...or not?
I doubt it's worth spending 400 on a CC and 50/50 (?) on the comsat. But, you can call down the mules anywhere, so it makes sense to call down all mules to the high yield minerals. You get 1 per CC so there shouldn't even be a situation where a mineral line is saturated with mules. But I thing they can mine regardless of whether an SCV or another mule is already mining.
Yeah, I forget you could call them anywhere, that's even better. I was just thinking if the constant calling down could make up for the initial cost somewhat. Like you have one CC in your main, second in expansion and than build third in your base just for Mule purposes (well, the scanning ability is always good to have too)...it could be later used for taking third expansison.
The Dark Pylon is somewhat capped with it's effectiveness if two per expo are just enough to keep your probes mining more. However there doesn't seem to be such cap for Mules. But I guess the initial investement would really be just too much to make this viable...we'll see in beta anyway. |
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| nicoaldo Argentina. June 30 2009 08:24. Posts 380 | Profile |
On June 30 2009 08:18 invy wrote:
Its simple. zerg need Dark Swarm spell, and in the right time. Todays ZvT without Dark Swarm is instant loss late game. Thinking of it, Zerg strategies vs Terran are evolved around survive-delay-defend-turtle-whatever untils dark swarm comes out. No DS == imbalance that we see in sc2.
Or for change make hidras useful vs marines...
The upgraded queen can cast a "Bladeswarm"which is about as big as a dark swarm, controlable and deals damage.
not sure if it also works as a dark swarm, can somebody clarify? Last edit: 2009-06-30 08:25:20 |
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 Raithed China. June 30 2009 08:25. Posts 6746 | Profile Blog |
| wow seems like if zerg can get a fuckload of ling/roach, protoss is done for. this is kind of true in older days of SC when forge+expand wasnt used. 6 base mass ling vs 2 base protoss it kind of sounds like. i hope the mechanic is good with the queen in terms of balance, kind of grotesque seeing zerg getting ling/roach powering vs protoss when p cant forge expand yet. im sure players will find ways to do so though. |
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| Teejing Germany. June 30 2009 08:25. Posts 403 | Profile |
thx for the answers
i am still concerned there will be only 1 good zerg bo, because queen is like a hatch + zergling for just 150min. |
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| aqui Germany. June 30 2009 08:33. Posts 381 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 08:16 s.a.y wrote:
did you find any room for mothership in the build?
where they saying anything about bringing back scourge or carrier?
carriers are not out.
mothership could perhabs be used in a stalemate in a long lasting pvt.
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| aqui Germany. June 30 2009 08:40. Posts 381 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 08:24 nicoaldo wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 08:18 invy wrote:
Its simple. zerg need Dark Swarm spell, and in the right time. Todays ZvT without Dark Swarm is instant loss late game. Thinking of it, Zerg strategies vs Terran are evolved around survive-delay-defend-turtle-whatever untils dark swarm comes out. No DS == imbalance that we see in sc2.
Or for change make hidras useful vs marines...
Show nested quote +The upgraded queen can cast a "Bladeswarm"which is about as big as a dark swarm, controlable and deals damage.
not sure if it also works as a dark swarm, can somebody clarify?
im not sure but for one the queen is only viable on creep ( too slow without) and for another im not sure whether it can be casted in absence of a hatch nearby, i did not try it but someone mentioned something like that. makes sense that it has a hatch cooldown though, casting several of them at the same time would rape to much.
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| Jayme United States. June 30 2009 08:42. Posts 2155 | Profile |
| OH man Zerg needs their scourge back so badly. |
| | Python is garbage, number 1 advocate of getting rid of it. | |
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| Bosu United States. June 30 2009 08:44. Posts 998 | Profile Blog |
| Scourge are probably the unit I will miss most in SC2. |
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 VIB Brazil. June 30 2009 09:00. Posts 2067 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 05:13 zatic wrote:
Zerg has the queen. The queen can be built with pool tech (but interestingly does not require larvae to be built), costs 150 minerals and is a combined range attacker and spell caster. It can "Inject" extra larvae into a hatchery. About 30 seconds later, three extra larvae spawn at once, and you can immediately inject again, no cool down or energy required here. Normal larvae spawning continues even if the three additional are there.
So there is zero need for more than ONE queen for macro? |
| | Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people. |
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| Shade692003 Canada. June 30 2009 09:07. Posts 427 | Profile |
On June 30 2009 08:18 invy wrote:
Its simple. zerg need Dark Swarm spell, and in the right time. Todays ZvT without Dark Swarm is instant loss late game. Thinking of it, Zerg strategies vs Terran are evolved around survive-delay-defend-turtle-whatever untils dark swarm comes out. No DS == imbalance that we see in sc2.
Or for change make hidras useful vs marines...
You do know there was a time Zerg made Defilers pretty much as often they made Queens, right? Point is, the game evolve, and new strategies are made as the players get better and better. I doubt anyone played SC2 enough to have discovered a alternative strategy, like Defilers in SC1. Something imba is found out, and later on people find out something on the other side to defend against it, like the Orc vs NE matchup.
I say people should play a lot more SC2 before changing too much the balance.
Last edit: 2009-06-30 09:08:13 |
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 GHOSTCLAW United States. June 30 2009 09:13. Posts 10240 | Profile Blog | |
| | Liquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help. | |
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| mucker United States. June 30 2009 09:15. Posts 171 | Profile |
| what's the scoop on vikings? they just not get much use since infantry is so powerful and the other factory stuff isn't worth bothering with? |
| | It's supposed to be automatic but actually you have to press this button. |  |
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| eMbrace United States. June 30 2009 09:18. Posts 901 | Profile Blog |
Zatic, how useful is the mothership? 0_0
I honestly think it should be a campaign only unit. |
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 SilverSkyLark Philippines. June 30 2009 09:34. Posts 5109 | Profile Blog |
| I still like the buffed storm. |
| | "If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow | |
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| FabledIntegral United States. June 30 2009 09:36. Posts 791 | Profile Blog |
| If the tech isn't too late, could you make it so the hatchery has a "spawn larvae" tech or something that techs for the queen? So that it would take 1 minute or so to research, thus it would be more beneficial to lay down a hatch instead? Make it cost something like 50 minerals 50 gas or something, just so that it's delayed enough to the point where you have decided to build a geyser or something. |
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| Nadagast United States. June 30 2009 09:44. Posts 30 | Profile |
| Can Zerg use the Infestor 100 dmg instant ae ability + Hydra/Lurker to fight later game Terran army? |
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| checo Mexico. June 30 2009 09:54. Posts 299 | Profile |
| Thx man really hyped about Beta XD |
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 alffla Hong Kong. June 30 2009 09:55. Posts 13083 | Profile Blog | |
| | savior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY! | |
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| wthre Germany. June 30 2009 10:03. Posts 25 | Profile | |
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| JiYan United States. June 30 2009 10:05. Posts 217 | Profile |
| good read, interested to see how your perspective progresses |
| | Team Pandemic - www.teampandemic.net |
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 nataziel Australia. June 30 2009 10:11. Posts 1000 | Profile Blog |
What I've been seeing lately from a few reports is that zerg rapes early game but sucks late game. This is a very bad way to go about balancing, all races should be equal at all points in the game, it's stupid if a game goes late game you always know the zerg will lose, it will just degenerate into a rush fest from zerg and a turtle fest from whoever they're playing.
Unit response is cool to hear about, they really do need to work on that, it's one of the things that made SC micro so godly. If the rest of the game is fast (and mutalisks respond fast) why can't every unit be like that? I am optimistic on the future of this game, the flood of info in the last 2-3 days has made me really keen for beta and release hopefully at the end of this year. |
| | It was like 25 min per mine, buy three, get a vulture free. Makes sense to me if this nighthawk is supposed to be a flying SCV. - Cpt. Cocaine | |
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| Savio United States. June 30 2009 10:18. Posts 1346 | Profile | |
| | The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill |
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| thopol United States. June 30 2009 10:21. Posts 1005 | Profile Blog |
Good read. It's a pity about terran metal and crappy micro.
I'm also hesitant about weak ultras. I would rather have power over burrow any day.
Thanks though, I'm excited to see how things start shaping up with beta. |
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| FieryBalrog United States. June 30 2009 10:35. Posts 866 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 10:11 nataziel wrote:
What I've been seeing lately from a few reports is that zerg rapes early game but sucks late game. This is a very bad way to go about balancing, all races should be equal at all points in the game
Thats impossible, and it doesn't work like that in SC1 either. All races are not equal at all points in the game. E.g. late game Terran gets very little and zerg gets access to awesome Hive tech. Yet game is still balanced even late game because of how the mid game plays out.
Anyway, I hope its not so extreme that Zerg just rolls over and dies late game. A better and more realistic thing to hope for is that all races are viable at early game, mid game and late game. They will never be equal at all points. |
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| skronch United States. June 30 2009 10:36. Posts 889 | Profile |
| thanks for the writeup. however, every article i read is making me feel more and more worried about sc2 |
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| Lobbo June 30 2009 10:40. Posts 606 | Profile Blog |
The micro issue is most probably going to be fixed - I'm 100% curtain of this. With that and some (as it seems now) fixes to macro Starcraft 2 will be the best RTS to be released to date game play wise, but the thing I don't understand is why does not blizzard let in 20-100 people for early beta testing - Closed beta or hell even exclusive alpha testing by those who have contributed and played the game and have time for it to be played? It must be so so much easier to NDA that shit and let the selective players play with blizzard employees and help improve the game. I Don't think blizzard employees and friends/family can see or "feel" the needed changes before public beta. I think with this "idea" the development of the game as of this moment will be faster and much more stronger.
This must be a smarter idea to load maybe even 5% of the upcoming years of patching to have done certain things before hand.
And thanks for the great read. Seems like you actually should be one of those persons I'm talking about in my rant.Last edit: 2009-06-30 10:40:50 |
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| zazen Brazil. June 30 2009 10:52. Posts 366 | Profile |
Thanks for the write-up.
I can imagine myself nerd-raging really bad over auto-surround. Hope they fix it asap.
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| | BR? Gibe moni plos I report u HuAhEuhAUEahuhAE... | |
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| tedster June 30 2009 11:01. Posts 133 | Profile |
| Nice writeup, though the micro issues you listed are quite worrisome. Obviously some of them will be addressed, but I definitely hope blizz pays attention to the things you single out because they are very significant issues. |
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| Roxen000 Australia. June 30 2009 11:08. Posts 1037 | Profile Blog |
| Thanks for the article, zatic. |
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| AsianEcksDragon United States. June 30 2009 11:15. Posts 57 | Profile |
| I think the new macro mechanics might actually work. Protoss won't have to FE anymore (nor will they be able to) since they can get so much mineral off just DP to match Zerg's huge economy. Zerg is even more about having huge army now since the Queen reinforces the "sauron zerg" style of bw. With some tweaks to the Protoss spellcastings, you can easily create balance in the matchup. Terran however, seems to be completely revamped from SC1. They are no longer turtling for 10 min and busting out with a huge army. Terran unit was supposed to be as weak as a Zerg, but have less diminishing return from being in groups. Last edit: 2009-06-30 11:15:34 |
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| scwizard United States. June 30 2009 11:23. Posts 1110 | Profile |
Statecraft was beta tested for a year. I hope this gets similar treatment.
EDIT: I don't know much about strategy, but from what I've read lurkers need to be moved down to tier 2. This would make siege tanks more important, and m&m less imba.Last edit: 2009-06-30 11:24:55 |
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 InfeSteD United States. June 30 2009 11:31. Posts 4392 | Profile Blog |
| Fuck Im gettin too excited about this whole Sc2 thing.. it might fuck up my life again... get too addicted gogogo? |
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| danieldrsa Brazil. June 30 2009 11:40. Posts 413 | Profile |
Very nice article. I enjoyed the read a lot.
What i noted is the different feedback from different ppl. We were so sure Zerg was weak after reading LR opinions, but now you say your impressions and everything look so different.
Noone is wrong i see, its just different point of views and different test situations.
Surely its too early to judge the balance, only the Beta could give a more accurate feedback indeed.
Except for marine and marauder, wich seems good vs everything for everyone
The auto-surround is indeed a problem as you explained it very well. Its not better AI as we thinked, but auto attack thing that takes the unit control out of players. And you put the perfect solution (a+attack).
However, i dont agree with scourge They should find a counter that does not envolve scourge, as zerg already has too much units from SC1. |
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| Sigh Canada. June 30 2009 11:46. Posts 785 | Profile Blog |
Thanks for the read
Nice to get your opinion |
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| Ideas United States. June 30 2009 11:48. Posts 3088 | Profile Blog |
What were the spells like for Zerg? What does the Queen do? The infestor? Overseer?
What about the ghost, hows he working now? |
| | 150***** APM FTW..................... #1 STX SouL/Calm/Kal/July fan.............................hi man O_O | |
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| Clow Brazil. June 30 2009 11:57. Posts 398 | Profile Blog |
Awesome, thx for the writeup.
On June 30 2009 05:13 zatic wrote:
In short, Zerg needs scourge back and everything would be fine :-).
Hell yeah |
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| Spanxxx United States. June 30 2009 12:07. Posts 371 | Profile |
| awesome write-up. i hope the changes you mentioned will actually be changed. |
| | If people arent trying to pull you down, you arent climbing high enough. | |
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| Psyonic_Reaver United States. June 30 2009 12:20. Posts 1244 | Profile Blog |
| I felt Corrupters were a VERY strong Anti-Air unit. |
| | WHY DO I ALWAYS FAIL! -Psyonic vs RaGe ShowMatch | |
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| RyanS United States. June 30 2009 12:24. Posts 320 | Profile |
| "Zatic build" hahaha. David Kim (bonjwa) invented the marine/marauder build! |
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 omninmo June 30 2009 12:43. Posts 1620 | Profile Blog |
| after the deluge of sc2 crap that has come out this weak. this is finally an article worthy of our attention. thanks zatic... really good insight and suggestions. i hope dustin's people check this out. |
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| ArvickHero Korea (South). June 30 2009 12:48. Posts 1271 | Profile Blog |
nothing about Vikings? Eh...
I hope you told the developers about the micro issues and made it really clear to them that it needs to be fixed haha |
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| Kennigit Canada. June 30 2009 13:00. Posts 11730 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 12:24 ReS wrote:
"Zatic build" hahaha. David Kim (bonjwa) invented the marine/marauder build!
No actually zatic invented this first. Bonjwakim stole it adapted it for his own play. |
| | It\'s like LastShadow driving to the middle of nowhere because his GPS map got edited. | |
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| mutantmagnet United States. June 30 2009 13:39. Posts 27 | Profile |
A very worthwhile read. Thank you for writing it.
Half of BW's Pimpest Plays are only possible because units handle so well. They freed up time and attention with MBS and automining, why not allow players to invest that in better micro? Everyone would benefit, especially Starcraft as a spectator sport. Even in a game so hugely macro heavy as Starcraft, we all love to watch the Pros perform ridiculous unit stunts.
I would prefer Blizzard allowing for faster response times but I disagree this helps everyone.
If you ever played fighting games a lot you would understand immediately the arguments you are presenting here are exactly like the debate that has raged over how sluggish certain iterations of classic fighters have become.
There is a point at which a game could feel too unresponsive to the vast majority of people but allowing for tighter timings creates a skill gap so large it makes a less compelling game for those who wish to play but feel they can never compete with "frame counters."
Blizzard is justified in experimenting with adjusting the reaction mechanics of units. We just have to present a good case they are swinging too far in the other direction while testing and make it clear that even low apm players don't like the poor reaction times of these units. |
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| Hyde Australia. June 30 2009 13:44. Posts 1103 | Profile |
Excellent write up, I really enjoyed reading that, thanks a lot. The whole micro problem where your units don't listen to you and auto spread sounds really annoying. Would probably frustrate the hell out of me if it was fixed.
It also sounds like Terran are going to have a field day with dropship runs left and right haha. In a way I'm both sad and happy that mech is gone in PvT, it was a pain sometimes in SC1, but I like the new possibilities in SC2, can't wait to see what happens.
I had a big grin on my face when you mentioned the game ending 12 Ultras and 50 lings disappearing into the Protoss base hahaha |
| | I won't kill you...But I don't have to save you | |
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| LuDwig- Italy. June 30 2009 14:43. Posts 361 | Profile Blog |
| i think this analyze is lack of "real playing". We can alalyze everythig but only when we will be playing we can see if sc2 a good game..all these things are only speculations. |
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| zatic Germany. June 30 2009 15:01. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 08:15 Luddite wrote:
Does the Thor do anything, or is it just a useless unit at this point?
Doesn't do much. It lacks the mobility of medivacs and marines are good enough vs air. It could be useful against the colossus late game with the particle cannon but I didn't try that.
On June 30 2009 08:16 s.a.y wrote:
did you find any room for mothership in the build?
where they saying anything about bringing back scourge or carrier?
Carrier is in, but not as strong as in BW. Interceptors die more quickly I feel, not viable against mass marines.
Mothership is in but it's not really a problem. I don't care much about it. It won't change any games. You have to build offensive pylons the warp the mothership to the front line and then it can cast 1 vortex (works like stasis). Not too impressive, except visually.
On June 30 2009 09:00 VIB wrote:
So there is zero need for more than ONE queen for macro?
One per base. The queen is terrible slow off the creep so you can't use 1 to inject at your Nat and your main.
On June 30 2009 09:15 mucker wrote:
what's the scoop on vikings? they just not get much use since infantry is so powerful and the other factory stuff isn't worth bothering with?
Pretty much. Medivac mobility makes them unnecessary in normal games. Reapers and medivacs are way better harass choices. They are good AA though so would be a good choice against carriers.
Generally you don't want to build neither factory nor starport units though to maximize the medivac/marines output.
On June 30 2009 09:44 Nadagast wrote:
Can Zerg use the Infestor 100 dmg instant ae ability + Hydra/Lurker to fight later game Terran army?
Zerg still has a lot of (untested) potential late game, for example I imaging hydra/broodlord could be a good counter. Or the tier 3 upgrades to roaches. The problem is the mobility of Terran, if they lose a fight they just fly their entire army away and drop you elsewhere.
On June 30 2009 11:23 scwizard wrote:
EDIT: I don't know much about strategy, but from what I've read lurkers need to be moved down to tier 2. This would make siege tanks more important, and m&m less imba.
Lurkers can't really be the answer. The problem is not how powerful the marines are, but how mobile your army is with drop ships.
On June 30 2009 12:20 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
I felt Corrupters were a VERY strong Anti-Air unit.
For actual air to air fights, I agree. However, they can't stop drops effectively, by the time the dropship is corrupted it's too late. |
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| ama-cms Finland. June 30 2009 15:54. Posts 162 | Profile |
Thanks for putting in the time to writing this. It was a very enjoyable read.
I have stayed away from all the Starcraft II theorycrafting for now but I felt like I wanted to drop this comment in:
They(Blizzard) really need to look into getting the siege tank into the game properly. Terran can't be real terran without that damn thing!  And of course, when the tank sieges it has to let off some menacing, nightmarish sound that makes you feel youre completely doomed, while on the recieving end of it. |
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| VIB Brazil. June 30 2009 16:03. Posts 2067 | Profile Blog |
What are your thoughts on exploring strategies with queens + sunkens + creep drop offensively? Maybe for mid game contains ala neo medusa?
And does the queen still have that evolve thingy where you pay to make them stronger? Is it worth it? |
| | Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people. |
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| Velr Switzerland. June 30 2009 16:05. Posts 1223 | Profile |
| nice one |
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| zuqbu Germany. June 30 2009 16:14. Posts 320 | Profile |
| great writeup! i'm really curious now about what we will see in the beta build |
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| zatic Germany. June 30 2009 16:18. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 16:03 VIB wrote:
What are your thoughts on exploring strategies with queens + sunkens + creep drop offensively? Maybe for mid game contains ala neo medusa?
And does the queen still have that evolve thingy where you pay to make them stronger? Is it worth it?
I tried several sunken / creep combinations. Cliffing with sunkens and creep works pretty well against protoss. I don't see the queen offensively though.
but yeah, with creep you set up strong contains in no time. Generally it's advisable to creep drop anywhere where you would expect a fight to happen as your units are so much faster on creep.
Yes the queen can be evolved to get new spells, namely the razorblade swarm, which is like a controllable insect swarm that does continuous damage to units under it. It was Hive tech though so I didn't really have the chance to test it against drops for example. |
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| brambolius Netherlands. June 30 2009 16:46. Posts 448 | Profile | |
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| liquorice United States. June 30 2009 17:05. Posts 168 | Profile |
dammit blizzard.
great writeup though. |
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| miseiler United States. June 30 2009 17:20. Posts 927 | Profile Blog |
| Thank you so much! This review has me a great deal more optimistic than I was, which was not at all. |
| ZerO FIGHTING!
"I'M GOING TO WIN THAT $$$, REALPENGUIN NEXT BONJWA" -- Realpenguin | |
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| stet_tcl Greece. June 30 2009 17:38. Posts 108 | Profile |
Great read zatic, its very informative.. Thank you very much!
I think the most pressing issue that needs to be addressed right now is the unit response latency... |
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| SiGurD Korea (South). June 30 2009 18:03. Posts 413 | Profile |
Cologne, love that place really nice!
nice written by the way!(btw) . |
| | LG)SiGurD http://www.youtube.com/BWSiGurD |
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| Jenia6109 Russian Federation. June 30 2009 18:09. Posts 430 | Profile |
| Zatic, what can u say about abilities of Disruptor, HT, Mothership, Ghost, Raven, Infestor and Overseer except that abilities that we have already seen in videos? |
| | Bisu - Sharpness / Stork - Patience \ Jaedong - Agression / Fantasy - Creativity \ Flash - Power |
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| ambit!ous1 United States. June 30 2009 18:10. Posts 3619 | Profile | |
| | Birthplace : Yesan, Korea / Birthdate : November 3, 1989 / Height : 177cm / Weight : 68kg / Blood Type : O Team : SK Telecom1 ( ex MBC Game Hero ) / Race : Protoss / ID : Bisu[Shield]. \\\ " 김택용 " \\\ | |
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| Konni Germany. June 30 2009 18:19. Posts 2678 | Profile Blog |
Autosurround is fine, but your lings attacking another target than the one you picked is not ok. That's like you said, your units don't do what you told them to.
Other than that I really liked what you described. Great writeup! |
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| zatic Germany. June 30 2009 18:30. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 18:09 Jenia6109 wrote:
Zatic, what can u say about abilities of Disruptor, HT, Mothership, Ghost, Raven, Infestor and Overseer except that abilities that we have already seen in videos?
Ok so:
Disruptor/Nullifier
Great unit, force field is awesome to play and to watch. With ranged units, especially colossus they become very powerful.
HT:
All depends on how powerful the psi storm is as it has been changed a lot over the builds. It should not be too strong though because smart casting will make the HT too cheap then.
Mothership:
As mentioned, nothing really special, you won't see games decided by this. It's so slow you have to warp (50) to get anywhere and then you can cast at most 1 vortex, which is essentially a stasis.
Ghost
could become a staple unit for Terran. EMP is amazing against Protoss, as they can't dodge it anymore. whether or not nuke is viable depends on how quickly it's available and how much it costs. Right now you could definitely get nukes off, but usually your opponent has enough time to withdraw everything.
Raven
Very good unit, the auto turret is annoying as hell for zerg. I tried the defensive drone but it doesn't do too much from what I can tell. On tier3 stationary defense are not as powerful anyway.
Infester
Soso unit. The neural parasite is good for capital targets but not a real game changer. It didn't have plague in the build I played but a fungal infection or something that turns an enemy unit into a baneling. This takes a couple of seconds though so you have time to move away from the infected unit. |
| | I know TeamLiquid is known as a massive building | |
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| Vex Ireland. June 30 2009 19:23. Posts 454 | Profile Blog |
| how bout we just 'understand' the game when it comes out, instead of analysing it over and over and over every time 1 fukken thing changes. |
| | "Bonjwa" is the most retarded word ever. Wtf does it even sound like. | |
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| ryuu_ United States. June 30 2009 19:27. Posts 771 | Profile Blog |
| thanks for the great article |
| | Kpop. ♣ Hyuk is my hero. | |
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| FlyingDJ Germany. June 30 2009 19:35. Posts 66 | Profile |
| Hellions didn't seem so useless in the latest gameplay video, even though fights were staged and not very realistic (30 banelings?). Doesn't surprise me that some Terran units seem to be of little use considering they have so many. But well, it's not like the build was final and Broodwar also has its share of rarely used units (Scout/Devourer/Queen etc.) |
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| Jenia6109 Russian Federation. June 30 2009 19:44. Posts 430 | Profile | |
| | Bisu - Sharpness / Stork - Patience \ Jaedong - Agression / Fantasy - Creativity \ Flash - Power |
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| adelarge June 30 2009 19:49. Posts 285 | Profile |
On June 30 2009 19:35 FlyingDJ wrote:
Hellions didn't seem so useless in the latest gameplay video, even though fights were staged and not very realistic (30 banelings?). Doesn't surprise me that some Terran units seem to be of little use considering they have so many. But well, it's not like the build was final and Broodwar also has its share of rarely used units (Scout/Devourer/Queen etc.)
What? Terran has only 13 units, both Zerg and Protoss has 15 in SC2. |
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| StorrZerg United States. June 30 2009 20:50. Posts 3837 | Profile Blog |
On June 30 2009 19:49 adelarge wrote:
Show nested quote +On June 30 2009 19:35 FlyingDJ wrote:
Hellions didn't seem so useless in the latest gameplay video, even though fights were staged and not very realistic (30 banelings?). Doesn't surprise me that some Terran units seem to be of little use considering they have so many. But well, it's not like the build was final and Broodwar also has its share of rarely used units (Scout/Devourer/Queen etc.)
What? Terran has only 13 units, both Zerg and Protoss has 15 in SC2.
its ok terran just seems to be going bio any ways |
| | Nov 7th Xeris' East Coast Lan in DC and sc2 beta nov 14th 2010 | |
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| Cyrox Sweden. June 30 2009 21:00. Posts 42 | Profile |
Auto-surround style sounds really bad, but Blizzard will fix it. I belive in Blizzard!
EDIT: Also worth to mention; I played a build at last Dreamhack Winter and as zatic says, it really feels like BW and are tons of fun even with all the things that need additional balancing!Last edit: 2009-06-30 21:03:47 |
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| thelawenforcer June 30 2009 21:35. Posts 4 | Profile |
| the biggest sad thing for me is that protoss vs terran wont look as epic anymore |
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| SiGurD Korea (South). June 30 2009 21:45. Posts 413 | Profile |
| Really nice read! sweet imo |
| | LG)SiGurD http://www.youtube.com/BWSiGurD |
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| mutantmagnet United States. June 30 2009 22:13. Posts 27 | Profile |
Before this report I was speculating that with the changes made PvP would feel a lot more like TvT from the Broodwar days and TvT has evolved even more to include barracks units in the soft counter mix.
My only concern is that Immortals would break Protoss ability to have fun games like this.
Did you see any of the races having dynamic build order games in same race match ups like old school TvT? If so what could be the reason some races are struggling to have that type of exciting game? |
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| zatic Germany. June 30 2009 22:31. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
What do you mean by dynamic build order games?
About PvP and TvT, and mirrors generally: Unfortunately they seem rather boring now, except maybe TvT.
ZvZ is all Tier1, no reason to get muta. It's all roaches. PvP is boring as hell because there are no reavers anymore. It's just massing units and even more units.
TvT is a bit different. There is basically only 1 opening, marauders, because marauders are the only counter Terran has to marauders. But from then on it's much more dynamic with medivacs in the game. Basically it's infantry / medivac fights. Again, I don't see viable Terran factory builds. |
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| beetlelisk Poland. June 30 2009 22:42. Posts 639 | Profile |
| Thank You for great article and answers |
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 minus_human Romania. June 30 2009 22:58. Posts 3165 | Profile Blog |
| Thanks Zatic, this was really great |
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| -visnu- Australia. June 30 2009 23:02. Posts 14 | Profile |
zatic, ur mad son.
that was just so much fun reading, it was as if i was writing it.
+1!
on topic. I think we just need to send this blog to Blizzard or get them to have a read.
the micro is the essence of higher levels of play. |
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| Nyovne Netherlands. June 30 2009 23:03. Posts 4292 | Profile | |
| | For remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken. | |
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| Tritanis Poland. June 30 2009 23:08. Posts 177 | Profile |
On June 30 2009 22:31 zatic wrote:
ZvZ is all Tier1, no reason to get muta. It's all roaches. PvP is boring as hell because there are no reavers anymore. It's just massing units and even more units.
From what I saw in the latest tech tree, roaches are lair tech.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/FrozenArbiter/zerg_tech_tree_cropped_June_.jpg)
But the event in Cologne could use the older tech tree I guess... |
| | I live, I serve, I die for the Metal |
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| Krzycho Poland. June 30 2009 23:32. Posts 404 | Profile |
What do you think about Xel Naga Watchtowers?
I assume you told to Dev's about your concerns with microing?
Do you know what were the specs of PCs you played on? |
| | 10x Big Bang Kame Hame Ha |
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| StorrZerg United States. July 01 2009 00:51. Posts 3837 | Profile Blog |
| i don't like this xel naga watch tower :/ its not starcraft |
| | Nov 7th Xeris' East Coast Lan in DC and sc2 beta nov 14th 2010 | |
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| SoleSteeler Canada. July 01 2009 01:30. Posts 3345 | Profile |
How was the new armour / attack type system? Did it feel intuitive? Also, was there a sense that some units had "no chance" vs. certain unit types, or that they could beat the opponent with proper control?
Sorry if that's kinda vague ... I just rewrote that post like 5 times trying to figure out exactly what I was trying to say. |
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| ParasitJonte Sweden. July 01 2009 01:32. Posts 761 | Profile |
Really, really good read but I got kind of depressed toward the end.
The mirror match-ups seem really boring, there's no reason to build factories, units respond sluggishly and auto-surrond even when you don't want them to, Protoss can't beat Zerg.
The fact that you still found the game fun is at least very promising :o!? I hope they read your post and make changes accordingly. |
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| Goshawk. United Kingdom. July 01 2009 02:02. Posts 186 | Profile Blog |
| Interesting read. Micro issues definitely need fixing, they would drive me crazy. |
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| MiniRoman Canada. July 01 2009 02:10. Posts 3261 | Profile Blog |
What's the typical lategame army size? I was very unimpressed with the 'macro' from the battlereports. David Kim bonergiver only had like 2 control groups max lategame. Definitely looked like Warcraft4 from the outside.
Micro issue is definitely warcraft4, very annoying ~_~ |
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| Scorch Austria. July 01 2009 02:18. Posts 1276 | Profile Blog |
On July 01 2009 00:51 StorZerg wrote:
i don't like this xel naga watch tower :/ its not starcraft
Why do you care? If people don't like it, map makers won't include it in their maps. It is purely a bonus. Just like line-of-sight blocking high grass and destructible rocks.
Also, map control is very much Starcraft. |
| | What? The land of the free? Whoever told you that is your enemy. | |
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| starPride United States. July 01 2009 02:20. Posts 142 | Profile |
| your wrong about the micro, its just a little more intelligent what actually happens is when you target something and it doesnt find a plausible route it attacks ground instead of going to the target. its the same in wc3 and this can really be used to ur advantadge. only if you know how to use it. |
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| StorrZerg United States. July 01 2009 02:28. Posts 3837 | Profile Blog |
On July 01 2009 02:18 Scorch wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 01 2009 00:51 StorZerg wrote:
i don't like this xel naga watch tower :/ its not starcraft
Why do you care? If people don't like it, map makers won't include it in their maps. It is purely a bonus. Just like line-of-sight blocking high grass and destructible rocks. Also, map control is very much Starcraft.
Map control is very starcraft, but it never had other buildings giving bonus. idk reminds me of c&c i guess. and i like the high grass and dest rocks. |
| | Nov 7th Xeris' East Coast Lan in DC and sc2 beta nov 14th 2010 | |
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| foeffa Belgium. July 01 2009 02:29. Posts 1640 | Profile |
| Very very interesting read, answered a lot of my questions, tx. |
| | 觀過斯知仁矣. Ma Jaeyoon, always #1. Entusman #17. R u for rela? | |
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| starPride United States. July 01 2009 02:39. Posts 142 | Profile |
i saw the video and hellion micro vs the banelings seemed very responsive. I have not played the game but from what i saw it seemed to be fine and he was able to do some nice micro.
i also think it is impossible to simply point out balance issues in 1 or 2 days of testing. Cause in all honesty. your a fucking noob at sc2. so is any other person who walks in that room even with expierence from before , at blizzcon. It's impossible to judge all the match ups cause there are many things undiscovered.
despite its current build. which is why balance decisions should be more focused on beta because you will get alot more information from a much wider audience. When new strategies were introduced in wc3 a few years back everyone claimed imbalance and bla bla. but strategy adjustments were changed and all was well. So please. dont judge balance ;d
you aren't the ultimate guru on balance
. And id really like to see more evidence of the micro issues which seemed to be almost irrelevant after i saw the beta video. Also, automine is only useful when people use the minerals. I've seen pros in wc3 games who can get a huge ammount of minerals because of an intense battle only to have 1000 + when he tps back. I've seen them make macro mistakes. just because auto mine is in doesnt mean people are going to have perfect macro or close. its going to take awhile. even then it wont be perfect. Last edit: 2009-07-01 02:41:02 |
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| zatic Germany. July 01 2009 02:57. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
On July 01 2009 02:10 MiniRoman wrote:
What's the typical lategame army size? I was very unimpressed with the 'macro' from the battlereports. David Kim bonergiver only had like 2 control groups max lategame. Definitely looked like Warcraft4 from the outside.
Micro issue is definitely warcraft4, very annoying ~_~
Pretty much like Broodwar. The BRs are not a good example of macro wars. Dustin Browder said in an interview with bw.de that they intentionally didn't pick macro heavy games for the BRs because they wanted to demonstrate what single units can do. |
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| zatic Germany. July 01 2009 03:03. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
On July 01 2009 02:20 starPride wrote:
your wrong about the micro, its just a little more intelligent what actually happens is when you target something and it doesnt find a plausible route it attacks ground instead of going to the target. its the same in wc3 and this can really be used to ur advantadge. only if you know how to use it.
That's fine for WC3 then. Starcraft is different game though. But please feel free to explain how I could have used the unit AI to my advantage in the two situations I described, both are totally common in Starcraft. |
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| starPride United States. July 01 2009 03:09. Posts 142 | Profile |
ok sure, take ur 5 lings right click near the probe
then click it. in wc3 if u click a unit you will move at a different pace and the route will seem slower. how ever if you click near it then click the attack it is much more efficeint. And from what im understood sc2 is based off the wc3 engine. and wc3 micro. is by no means easy.
matching damage types seems to be what blizzard is aiming for in sc2 similar to wc3. which is probably how hard counters and light counters will be chosen to begin .Last edit: 2009-07-01 03:12:28 |
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| zatic Germany. July 01 2009 03:11. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
On July 01 2009 02:39 starPride wrote:
i saw the video and hellion micro vs the banelings seemed very responsive. I have not played the game but from what i saw it seemed to be fine and he was able to do some nice micro.
The video is from a more recent SC2 build, and the hellion looks and moves differently from the build I played. Indeed it looks like it's a bit faster and easier to handle.
Are you seriously suggesting automining is no problem because some WC3 pros supposedly can't macro? |
| | I know TeamLiquid is known as a massive building | |
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| starPride United States. July 01 2009 03:13. Posts 142 | Profile |
| im saying that its not going to contribute to a noob beating a pro. assuming that sc2 is not sc1. skill will be measured differntly and more focus is being put on micro with the armor and damage types. I just don't buy the whole MBS is going to mean noobs can compete at a high level of skill which i've seen many other people state. Last edit: 2009-07-01 03:16:56 |
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| zatic Germany. July 01 2009 03:16. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
Well, nobody said that.
About the probe sniping this is exactly what you do in Starcraft too, yet it works in BW and doesn't in SC2. SC2 is not based on the WC3 engine.
Also please if you continue posting here type at least somewhat properly your post are barely readable. |
| | I know TeamLiquid is known as a massive building | |
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| starPride United States. July 01 2009 03:17. Posts 142 | Profile |
| i dont mean to sound rude but i firmly remember dustin browder saying that sc2 was being made off of a tinkered with wc3 engine. |
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| starPride United States. July 01 2009 03:22. Posts 142 | Profile |
and maybe you can explain more on how my post are barely readable?
i cant even indent paragraphs which isnt helping. so please. enlighten me. |
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| zatic Germany. July 01 2009 03:24. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
Chris Sigaty says in this interview from last week that the biggest factor in the development of SC2 was the completely new engine (German):
http://starcraft2.ingame.de/content.php?c=92104&s=932&p=2
He also said they tried to start with the WC3 engine, but that did not work for SC2 at all, so they had to rewrite it from scratch. |
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| MoAT Austria. July 01 2009 03:25. Posts 7 | Profile |
Thats wrong, they tried to implementate the wc3 engine in the first place but destroyed the plans quickly and made a new engine because path-taking of units and other stuff just didn´t work well ...
I´have read it on a german site which attended the press stuff at blizz,irvine. So i believe what the developers say.. |
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| MoAT Austria. July 01 2009 03:26. Posts 7 | Profile |
| thats it zatic got it! |
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| starPride United States. July 01 2009 03:27. Posts 142 | Profile |
| ok, thanks i did not know of that interview. The AI must work alot differntlly then. But i wouldnt see why you would have trouble getting your lings to focus the probes if you gave them a plausible direct route to the 1 probe. assuming that the probe and ling was lined up at 160-180o Last edit: 2009-07-01 03:30:16 |
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| starPride United States. July 01 2009 03:33. Posts 142 | Profile |
| micro isnt slow in wc3 at all.....go play it, its much different from sc micro. in battle your trying to match all the damage types, use spells. make sure units are in good posistion. useing items. even looking 2 seconds into the future cause your hero can get fucked by a bad posistion in a second if your opponent takes advantadge of it. then theres milisecond micro like dodging bolts or coils with staffs or wind walk or tps. Last edit: 2009-07-01 03:35:01 |
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| Railz United States. July 01 2009 03:38. Posts 1185 | Profile |
On July 01 2009 03:24 zatic wrote:Chris Sigaty says in this interview from last week that the biggest factor in the development of SC2 was the completely new engine (German): http://starcraft2.ingame.de/content.php?c=92104&s=932&p=2He also said they tried to start with the WC3 engine, but that did not work for SC2 at all, so they had to rewrite it from scratch.
Sounds oddly familiar...
As Blizzard finished warcraft2, it became a remarkable success. Afterwards blizzard has dedicated itself to be a GOOD company. They have rushed to make a Starcraft their new game. It would be basically an improved warcraft2 2. It would have 3 races and they would be totally different, as opposing to warcraft2 2 with its mirror images. But as they almost finished their StarCraft game, they released it to E3 show. After that it was criticized soo much, since it looked too much like warcraft2. From then, THEY TOTALLY CHANGED the game engine - Starcraft Beta
Oh |
| | Did the whole world just get a lot smaller and go whooosh?_-` Number 0ne By.Fantasy Fanatic! | |
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| Postaljester United States. July 01 2009 03:44. Posts 59 | Profile |
I understand this article is your opinion , and i enjoyed the look into sc2. However, I don't understand how you can claim some things with such certainty, seeing how little game time there has been.
for example think of how many years people played SC before Forge FE was figured out.
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| | RIP GOM, die in a fire Kespa | |
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| MoAT Austria. July 01 2009 03:44. Posts 7 | Profile |
| What i mean.. for instance.. if your orc grunt gets attacked by some footies u don´t have to recognize or decide within a second wether you move him back or whatever.. I know that all in all microing in wc3 is of course important but plz dont tell me that it is even as important as microing in sc.. its just not true.. and thats the reason why wc3 is not as compatitive as sc.. I have played both games for years and yeah i know what i am talking about! |
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| FragKrag United States. July 01 2009 03:45. Posts 4680 | Profile Blog |
oh god, siege tanks are near useless? ><
It's good to see that terran has reapers to make up for vultures though. They seem like the unit to make to show of micro and multitask atm. |
| | *TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper | |
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| starPride United States. July 01 2009 03:45. Posts 142 | Profile |
. there are more task. and the point is letting ur grunt get hit is going to affect ur whole play from early game. your not going to creep as efficient. perioid. dont talk about what you dont understand
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| MoAT Austria. July 01 2009 03:50. Posts 7 | Profile |
| you don´t get it right? ALL i wanted to say or focus on is that the wc3 engine is not made for starcraft and for example i combined your pathfinding / attacking statement with the speed of starcraft... so calm down. I just intended to clear things up. |
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| zatic Germany. July 01 2009 04:03. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
On July 01 2009 03:44 Postaljester wrote:
I understand this article is your opinion , and i enjoyed the look into sc2. However, I don't understand how you can claim some things with such certainty, seeing how little game time there has been.
for example think of how many years people played SC before Forge FE was figured out.
Forge FE is as old as Starcraft. Even the computer opens forge FE. I just described my observations and those of others at the event. Of course these will change as the game progresses but I don't see why I shouldn't write about them today.
Also everyone should not take any balance considerations too seriously, I am well aware that this is a pre-beta build. Sometimes it's just fun to discuss balance for the heck of it, even when the most recent build changes things already.
If you are talking about the Z>P I describe in the article, I only stress that so much because every other report and Blizzard themselves claim that Zerg is at a disadvantage currently.Last edit: 2009-07-01 04:08:23 |
| | I know TeamLiquid is known as a massive building | |
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 ghermination Croatia. July 01 2009 04:27. Posts 1657 | Profile Blog |
| it just seems that the more and more i hear about sc2 it seems like blizzard has forgotten how to make a good, balanced rts. I just wanted sc1 with 3d graphics ;_; |
| | Blizzard hasn't made a good game since Diablo 2, prove me wrong. *Cannabis brownies: the breakfast, second breakfast, brunch, lunch, tea time, dinner, dessert, and midnight snack of champions.* | |
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| MoAT Austria. July 01 2009 04:46. Posts 7 | Profile |
| SC1 was not balanced at all at the beginning... Be happy about their testing,beta and the hopefully more balanced status of SC2 then SC1 when it came out.. Don´t flame Blizz... they do a very good job and blizz good balancing was always part of the continued work on their games via patches and addons... |
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 closed Vatican City State. July 01 2009 04:57. Posts 483 | Profile Blog |
I really dont like the larvae economy. It sounds really stupid. It gives super big advantage to faster players. Every X seconds you have to click on queen and do X. Of course in brood war the faster player can get an advantage (e.g. make that one more factory), but it doesnt happen every X seconds.
Basically, in a game where people would only make lings vs lings, the faster player will always be able to macro "better". If you miss just that one larvae injection you are dead. Seriously, blizzard should find a better click-sink. Messing with the economy sounds so unfair.
In regular brood war you can do pretty well up to late game with 100apm. Of course your micro will be bad, but your macro should be ok. In SC2 you miss few larvae injections and you die?Last edit: 2009-07-01 04:59:06 |
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| Cheerio Ukraine. July 01 2009 04:58. Posts 301 | Profile |
On June 30 2009 05:13 zatic wrote:
There is no metal anymore, it's either marines or marauders.
incorrect. There is no metal yet.
P.S. Good info, thanks. |
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| Pape Serbia. July 01 2009 05:04. Posts 207 | Profile Blog |
| First UMS==> Starcraft 1 in 3d |
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| invy Bosnia-Herzegovina. July 01 2009 05:52. Posts 22 | Profile |
On July 01 2009 04:57 closed wrote:
I really dont like the larvae economy. It sounds really stupid. It gives super big advantage to faster players. Every X seconds you have to click on queen and do X. Of course in brood war the faster player can get an advantage (e.g. make that one more factory), but it doesnt happen every X seconds.
Basically, in a game where people would only make lings vs lings, the faster player will always be able to macro "better". If you miss just that one larvae injection you are dead. Seriously, blizzard should find a better click-sink. Messing with the economy sounds so unfair.
In regular brood war you can do pretty well up to late game with 100apm. Of course your micro will be bad, but your macro should be ok. In SC2 you miss few larvae injections and you die?
Nice point, zerg player would want every X seconds to click queen and spawn larvae... for few hatcheries and queens it equals to robo mechanic style... and thats not fun after all and its not much of a skill either. This should be really somehow changed/improved. |
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| 808y Germany. July 01 2009 06:03. Posts 2 | Profile |
Zatic, you say its more or less impossible to inject larvae with one queen into 2 hatcherys, because queens are so slow to move from the nat to the main.
But what about, if you connect the nat and the main with creep?
And another thing: what about 2 queens using this injection on 1 hatchery does this work too?
Imagine this: connecting the nat with the main with creep, and building 2 queens. Since the "cooldown" seems so low. I would make it possible to inject both queens at the nat, and move to the main, inject there again and move back to the nat. If the cooldown is about as long as the queen needs to move from the nat to the main: 9 Larvae @nat + 9 Larvae @main, with just 2 hatcherys and 2 queens. This would be fucking crazy. Can you comment on this?
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| Hieros United States. July 01 2009 06:31. Posts 46 | Profile |
| I recall in the earlier patches of War3 that the AI surrounded units too easily with the mere stroke of the m-key. Hopefully they will be more or less able to fix it here as they did there. |
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| butters742 Canada. July 01 2009 06:32. Posts 1 | Profile |
i love what i hear.
but ur right they need to make micro better.
i suck at it, but i know its a needed quality in SC |
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| zatic Germany. July 01 2009 06:35. Posts 2813 | Profile Blog |
As I mentioned in the updates, the queen does in fact need energy to inject the larvae. It is just enough to keep one hatchery saturated with extra larvae.
2 on 1 hatch doesn't work either since you have to wait the ~30 seconds until the extra larvae spawn before you can inject again. |
| | I know TeamLiquid is known as a massive building | |
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| Zzoram Canada. July 01 2009 06:43. Posts 2611 | Profile |
On July 01 2009 05:04 Pape wrote:
First UMS==> Starcraft 1 in 3d
More likely, Greener TD or Defense of the XelNaga. |
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| wrags United States. July 01 2009 07:08. Posts 105 | Profile |
On July 01 2009 06:35 zatic wrote:
As I mentioned in the updates, the queen does in fact need energy to inject the larvae. It is just enough to keep one hatchery saturated with extra larvae.
2 on 1 hatch doesn't work either since you have to wait the ~30 seconds until the extra larvae spawn before you can inject again.
Did you try any combination of like 3 hatchery 2 queen, 5 hatchery 3 queen or does one queen suffice for everything? |
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| SoleSteeler Canada. July 01 2009 07:10. Posts 3345 | Profile |
| So the Queen basically means you need half as many hatcheries as you do in SC, would that be accurate to say? |
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| invy Bosnia-Herzegovina. July 01 2009 07:23. Posts 22 | Profile |
On July 01 2009 07:10 SoleSteeler wrote:
So the Queen basically means you need half as many hatcheries as you do in SC, would that be accurate to say?
Hm how much time does it take Hatch to spawn 3 larvae ?! Less then 30, Hatch > Queen, more than 30, Queen > Hatch .. if you dont forget to click Queen. Queen dies easier than hatch, it spawns 3 larvae at the same time if I understood, which has its adv and disadvantages.. its different game than sc1 there will probably be some optimal mix hatch/queen discovered by practice. |
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| kyama United States. July 01 2009 07:30. Posts 9 | Profile |
On July 01 2009 06:03 808y wrote:
Zatic, you say its more or less impossible to inject larvae with one queen into 2 hatcherys, because queens are so slow to move from the nat to the main.
But what about, if you connect the nat and the main with creep?
And another thing: what about 2 queens using this injection on 1 hatchery does this work too?
Imagine this: connecting the nat with the main with creep, and building 2 queens. Since the "cooldown" seems so low. I would make it possible to inject both queens at the nat, and move to the main, inject there again and move back to the nat. If the cooldown is about as long as the queen needs to move from the nat to the main: 9 Larvae @nat + 9 Larvae @main, with just 2 hatcherys and 2 queens. This would be fucking crazy. Can you comment on this?
I remember when they said there will be a limit to how many larvaes a hatchery can have. For example if you inject larvae and don't use it, it won't go over a certain amount of larvaes. So, to have two queens injecting larvae on 1 hatchery is impossible. Unless, they changed it with new build. |
| | Let them hate, So as long as they fear... |
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| Chill Canada. July 01 2009 07:34. Posts 12186 | Profile Blog |
On July 01 2009 07:30 kyama wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 01 2009 06:03 808y wrote:
Zatic, you say its more or less impossible to inject larvae with one queen into 2 hatcherys, because queens are so slow to move from the nat to the main.
But what about, if you connect the nat and the main with creep?
And another thing: what about 2 queens using this injection on 1 hatchery does this work too?
Imagine this: connecting the nat with the main with creep, and building 2 queens. Since the "cooldown" seems so low. I would make it possible to inject both queens at the nat, and move to the main, inject there again and move back to the nat. If the cooldown is about as long as the queen needs to move from the nat to the main: 9 Larvae @nat + 9 Larvae @main, with just 2 hatcherys and 2 queens. This would be fucking crazy. Can you comment on this?
I remember when they said there will be a limit to how many larvaes a hatchery can have. For example if you inject larvae and don't use it, it won't go over a certain amount of larvaes. So, to have two queens injecting larvae on 1 hatchery is impossible. Unless, they changed it with new build.
He meant one Queen / Hatchery I believe. |
| | She also isn't my hero. The only hero's I have is our Founders, specifically Thomas Jefferson and my parents. | |
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| MoAT Austria. July 01 2009 08:18. Posts 7 | Profile |
| Zergs are probably gonna overrun your units if they have a certain amount of hatcherys and queens.. or is there a limit amount of queens allowed to have? Maybe thats the key to overpower tozz and terra.. MASSING"! |
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| lokiM United States. July 01 2009 12:09. Posts 1231 | Profile Blog |
| wait did I miss something? are you saying they removed that gas mechanic? |
| | LID HALP | |
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| AlwaysGG Taiwan. July 01 2009 15:53. Posts 748 | Profile |
| terran infantry shine in sc2 i sure will miss metal |
| | Believe sAviOr! ^^ | #1 HwaSin Fan | CJ & STX fighting | |
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| Krikkitone United States. July 03 2009 04:42. Posts 304 | Profile |
Definite problem wth the Zerg and Protoss Macros (and possibly the Terran)
They are both "cooldown" controlled as opposed to energy controlled
Energy is a resource that must be balanced between multiple uses.
Cooldown doesn't need to be balanced as it is a time limit.
A key problem in the 'type' of cooldown you have for Protoss+Zerg is the 'exact timing' problem
Zerg. If you have sufficient Queens, then you MUST cast Larve exactly every 30 sec.
cast it every 35 sec. and you end up with too few larva
you Can't cast it at 25 sec.
For Zerg, I'd
1) Increase the energy cost of spawn Larva so that it is greater the amount of energy the Queen will regenerate in the amount of cooldown Casting spawn Larva has.
2) Allow Multiple Spawn Larvas on a Hatchery
By increasing the energy cost you can balance it. Cooldowns might be a limiting factor but neither the "Queen cooldown" nor the "Hatchery cooldown" would be the limiting factor. It would be Queen Energy, a useful resource.
For Protoss, The key thing I would do is allow "stacking" Proton charge.
Right now, (assuming the time it lasts is 30 sec.)
If you charge every 35 sec you lose potential minerals
If you charge every 25 sec you waste energy
That is because if you charge twice 25 sec apart you only get 55 sec of Boost
If you charge twice Exactly 30 sec apart, you get the full 60 sec.
If casting 'Proton charge'' on a probe Increased the duration of the probes charge by 30 sec. instead of Setting it to 30 sec, then the exact tedious timing would be gone.... If you charged your probes, you could just 'recharge' them whenever you had spare energy/spare time... as long a you didn't wait too long. |
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| Vharox United States. July 03 2009 08:54. Posts 868 | Profile Blog |
| God I hope they fix this "auto-spread" when you right click a probe. I'd stab someone T_T |
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| koOmaaa July 07 2009 05:55. Posts 8 | Profile |
On July 03 2009 08:54 Vharox wrote:
God I hope they fix this "auto-spread" when you right click a probe. I'd stab someone T_T
+the unit responsiveness, that's a make or break point for me. |
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