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 Construct United States. December 10 2002 17:44. Posts 33 | Profile # |
| Hey. Can anyone describe to me the steps involved in taking yourself from an average gamer to a progamer? I know all progamers had to do that once in their life. They just weren't born with all knowledge SC. Like Nazgul for instance, how did he get so good? |
| | Wisdom is not knowledge itself but rather the ability to use knowledge. |
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 Liquid`Drone Norway. December 10 2002 17:58. Posts 18483 | Profile # |
you play a shitload of games(preferably vs players better than you, however playing 10 games vs people lower than you in skill will make you improve as much as playing 1 game vs someone better, it all depends how much time you have.  ) and either you're talented (in which case you will become very good/gosu) or you're not talented, in which case you will never transcend above "good".
for example nazgul played with a goal to improve and his natural talent coupled with the fact that he was playing a lot with people with higher skill than himself made him "gosu".
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| | LOLLLL I LAUGH'D SO HARD AT UR 60 IQ COMMENT PLEASE KILL URSELF STONE AGE NOOB. |
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 Bizkit Sweden. December 10 2002 18:02. Posts 1137 | Profile # |
ok first u havto ditch ur girlfriend and then drop out of school and last get a "no life".
That's the tricky part, now that u don that let's move on.
Now u install broodwar, set windows mouse speed fastest and then U go to famous replay sites/download and watch maybe 50 replays a day at 2X speed or Fastest, simply to learn strats and build orders.
Now after u watch reps u play 12hours straight witouth no stop.
I mean u can't sit in the Channel and Chat with other people.
U get a maximum of 5 minutes to rest for each game.
Focus and meditate, suck your fingers to get em warm or something.
After a hard day at work training u eat(u get like 15minutes to eat, i sugest u call for pizza, takeout food so u can play meanwhile some asian guy is making ur Chinese Soup or something) and then u sleep, 6 hours no more no less.
Then u wake up and we do a loop now to begin with the Replay sites/dowload part.
After 4-6 months of hardcore training u shoul become realy gosu and win every shitty tournamnet around and get invitet to korea and play there as a ProGamer.
The end - -;
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| | http://www.gosugamers.net |
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| Liquid`Drone Norway. December 10 2002 18:18. Posts 18483 | Profile # |
| actually even if a player followed that schedule for 3 years, he'd still need a shitload of talent to become good enough to even do "okay" in korea. |
| | LOLLLL I LAUGH'D SO HARD AT UR 60 IQ COMMENT PLEASE KILL URSELF STONE AGE NOOB. |
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| Construct United States. December 10 2002 18:36. Posts 33 | Profile # |
Haha. Have you ever considered becomming a personal trainer Bizkit?  I like your discription Drone but where exactly do you find gosu who want to actually play with you? Heh, that's the hard part. |
| | Wisdom is not knowledge itself but rather the ability to use knowledge. |
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 HnR)hT  United States. December 10 2002 18:48. Posts 3467 | Profile # |
LOL @ Bizkit's reply. I think that drone is right, different ppl have very different limits in this game  |
| | "Wretched hordes descend upon your ancient cities, O Poland, a hymn to the unity of all slaves thunders o'er them, and woe to you, Rzeczpospolita..." - Isaac Babel |
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| dudex Korea (South). December 10 2002 18:51. Posts 31 | Profile # |
what is talent?
u need knowledge and speed
knowledge can come from experience, but if u get a great gosu tutor u'll have it in less time...
and you improve faster if u have method too, if u think between games and practice certain details (say micro for example) even in your own ums maps u save time too
the closest thing to talent would be creativity ( = boxer  )
that is above knowledge
cause there's less and less creativity going on, don't u think? the game has been explored very much.
i think an interesting question is if it hasn't been explored TOO much. i mean, wouldn't it be funnier more variety of strats, when it wasn't common sense almost all the possibilities each races has in each matchup?
argh, to do well in korea does take a shitload of many things, yes |
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| Construct United States. December 10 2002 19:01. Posts 33 | Profile # |
| I know what you mean. There's a set standard for every matchup now. A certain path, if you will, that every matchup takes. People have played this game enough to know what works against other races and what doesn't, even down to specific strats. When everyone knows those facts, it takes personal skill to rise above other players. You've also got to have the willpower to succeed. But, you can't run on that alone. You have to have talent or aka "Natural Ability." You don't get to be Michael Jordan for instance without being naturally able to be that good. I think as far as creativity goes, that's not hard. Anyone can be creative. But I think what Boxer has that everyone else doesn't is the knowledge of how to make things work. Any comments? |
| | Wisdom is not knowledge itself but rather the ability to use knowledge. |
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 bi11y United States. December 10 2002 19:43. Posts 169 | Profile # |
no comments here  |
| | play me online u know that ill beat u, if i ever meet u, ill control - alt- delete - u |
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 distant_voice Germany. December 10 2002 20:04. Posts 2497 | Profile Blog # |
Anyone can be creative....
Dyou really think so? I think thats close to sayin "Anyone can be an actor/author/musician (artist of any sort)"
Anyone can define what he's done as "art", but then again, what is art?
Is that  ?
Hmmmmm..... |
| | This is my truth, tell me yours! |
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| Construct United States. December 10 2002 20:28. Posts 33 | Profile # |
| That makes sense distance_voice but I guess what I'm saying is anyone can be creative in the capacity that anyone can think up a strategy to use. Whether that strategy is successful, or would be considered "art" by others is debateble like you said. |
| | Wisdom is not knowledge itself but rather the ability to use knowledge. |
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 tenbagger United States. December 10 2002 20:28. Posts 1289 | Profile # |
talent =
1) hand speed
2) incredible clicking accuracy
3) quick thinking - ex. the ability to decide in a split second whether to push or retreat
4) deep thinking - ex. the ability to recognize what the opponent has based on limited scouting information, and what the opponent might do
I can practice 24 hr/day for the rest of my life and I will never come close to as good as korean pros, because I'm jsut not as "talented". Its obvious that most normal people just cannot move as fast or click as accurately as the pros. I even get dizzy looking at their 1st person screen, but I think generally, the importance of points 3 and 4 are underestimated by most average players. If you look at pro replays or vods, their timing is almost magical, and that can be attributed to points 3 and 4. Its not just knowing to make temps against mass hyrdas and such. To play at that level you need to be able to think much much deeper, to calculate things to an incredible level of accuracy, and we can practice forever, and get tutored by gosus and such. It takes natural abilty = talent to compete at that level, not just practice. |
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| Construct United States. December 10 2002 20:33. Posts 33 | Profile # |
| I agree with you on some of that tenbagger. But I also belive that your status in all of those points can be improved. My hand speed has increased by the years that I've used a keyboard. My mouse accuracy has increased by the years that I've used a mouse. But the latter 2 points are really fixed. You can't really change your capacity to think. |
| | Wisdom is not knowledge itself but rather the ability to use knowledge. |
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 Bill307  Canada. December 10 2002 21:38. Posts 9103 | Profile Blog # |
| I believe most (if not all) so-called "talent" is simply the result of skills you develop in your brain as a child and as you grow up. In other words, the more time you've spent gaming as a child (and doing other stuff that develops that part of the brain, e.g. checkers, chess, math, etc.), the more you'll be able to excel at SC. If this isn't what determines all of a person's "talent", then the small remainder of their "talent" would be due to their genes. |
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 maleorderbride United States. December 10 2002 22:13. Posts 2915 | Profile # |
i would have to mainly agree with where this thread is going; handspeed and clicking accuracy can be improved through simply repetition, but quick (corret)responses and "deep" thinking are something that you are basically born with, or at least unable to change at this point in your life.
I think this "thinking" has a much more common name: intelligence. It does take the knowledge of the game and repition in order to learn how to apply your interlligence, and there most certainly are mental shortcuts in this game as in any other, but the bottom line is, some people will never be able to play at the same level because they are limited by their intelligence. If you disagree with me, then what is it that defines a gosu? I am not making the case that all gosus are geniuses, i am saying that i expect the average IQ of a "gosu" to be higher than that of the average person.
If each person who plays doesn't have a theoretical cap then nazgul would not be ranked among the top players in the world. He said earlier in a post that he practices about 5 hours a day. Compare that to Patry's 10 hours, or boxer's 12--the point that im trying to make here is that yes dedication is a large part of the game, but just like in all other areas of life, dedication is not what dictates success. It would be a wonderful world if that was so, but success is dictated by chance, by work, an by ability. We can attempt to limit chance through planning and practice, and we can work at our goal all we want, but ultimately ability is necessary to take the final step. As far as ability is concerned, every persons ability or intelligence is different, and that provides the cap on your playing. |
| | Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go. |
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| distant_voice Germany. December 10 2002 22:45. Posts 2497 | Profile Blog # |
Wow, this is getting quite philosophical... what determines man? (genes, socialisation...)
maleorderbride, didn't you watch Forrest Gump? I know that movies aren't for real, but look at other people that are "top" at their field, they really aren't all geniouses (<---hows that spelled?)
Thinking isnt what decides the outcome of a starcraft-match imo. Ok, there are things you have to keep in mind like lurks + rines = blood
but I'd say what counts is predicting what your enemy does, and you predict using your experience, so practice is what counts, its like driving cars, speaking a language and most other things.
At that Nazgul plays only half as much as Boxer doesnt say a thing imo because I think that just relates to Boxer being a Korean and Nazgul being no Korean. Didn't we agree in the korean-education-thread some time ago that Koreans are terribly (if terribly is the right word) disciplined? I assume thats just a way of life.
So what I think is:
You can get really good by practicing (some'll need more some less).
Your experience with other games doesnt effect your sc-skills that much, esp not chess since its not real-time...
What is most important is WILL. If you really really want to you can achieve most things.
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| | This is my truth, tell me yours! |
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| iloveo.0 Egypt. December 10 2002 23:18. Posts 43 | Profile # |
alright...
that is just koreans are nothing special...they are good at starcraft, cuz ppl there promote it. cuz they love games that is all.
i really feel korean should brush their teeth. they smell like garlic
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 NoName United States. December 10 2002 23:22. Posts 1558 | Profile # |
Not garlic, kimchee - spiced, pickled, korean cabbage. They eat kimchee all day, so even their BO, and their country smells of it.
My bro was stationed there when he was in the army. |
| | Wam-bam-ba-boom! Bada-bing! |
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| NoName United States. December 10 2002 23:24. Posts 1558 | Profile # |
Oh, and they are obsessed with BW. No exaggeration. Even Koreans he worked with in the military would spend their spare time reading Korean Starcraft news, strategies, rumors and play. That is why they are so good.
Same reason Americans are good at Basketball. Or other countries are good at football (what I call soccer ). |
| | Wam-bam-ba-boom! Bada-bing! |
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| HnR)hT United States. December 10 2002 23:27. Posts 3467 | Profile # |
On December 10 2002 22:13 maleorderbride wrote:
i would have to mainly agree with where this thread is going; handspeed and clicking accuracy can be improved through simply repetition, but quick (corret)responses and "deep" thinking are something that you are basically born with, or at least unable to change at this point in your life.
I think this "thinking" has a much more common name: intelligence. It does take the knowledge of the game and repition in order to learn how to apply your interlligence, and there most certainly are mental shortcuts in this game as in any other, but the bottom line is, some people will never be able to play at the same level because they are limited by their intelligence. If you disagree with me, then what is it that defines a gosu? I am not making the case that all gosus are geniuses, i am saying that i expect the average IQ of a "gosu" to be higher than that of the average person.
If each person who plays doesn't have a theoretical cap then nazgul would not be ranked among the top players in the world. He said earlier in a post that he practices about 5 hours a day. Compare that to Patry's 10 hours, or boxer's 12--the point that im trying to make here is that yes dedication is a large part of the game, but just like in all other areas of life, dedication is not what dictates success. It would be a wonderful world if that was so, but success is dictated by chance, by work, an by ability. We can attempt to limit chance through planning and practice, and we can work at our goal all we want, but ultimately ability is necessary to take the final step. As far as ability is concerned, every persons ability or intelligence is different, and that provides the cap on your playing.
Wow that's some right wing view you got there . I think intelligence certainly plays a role in sc skill but it's not as significant as you make it out to be. I think when ppl say "natural talent" in sc they are referring just as much, if not moreso, to things like hand dexterity and stamina, as opposed to intelligence. |
| | "Wretched hordes descend upon your ancient cities, O Poland, a hymn to the unity of all slaves thunders o'er them, and woe to you, Rzeczpospolita..." - Isaac Babel |
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