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 tree.hugger Saint Paul, MN. August 06 2009 10:13. Posts 8975 | Profile Blog # |
I said this earlier;
The fact that Flash's team wasn't in proleague doesn't hurt him directly, but it should hurt him indirectly, combined with everything else. It simply means that Flash doesn't have any other wins to back him up. In the same way, Bisu doesn't have any wins to back up his results but since they involved better opponents in better leagues, Bisu holds his ground and Flash falls. |
| | (-_(-_(-_(-_-)_-)_-)_-) — "The girl was like.... omg effort is so hot, if he can do that with his zerlings i can just imagine what he can do with me lololol" - Heaven_n — EffOrt, Snow, PartinG, HerO, Snute, BK, GuMiho fighting! — @treehuggertl |  |
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| TwoToneTerran United States. August 06 2009 10:42. Posts 7990 | Profile # |
Bisu had worse opponents in the OSL, in which he lost. Flash had worse opponents in the MSL, in which he lost. Right before the PR, both Flash and Bisu had set themselves up to BO5 the same opponent, so there's something lost in the translation on how tough their roads were. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say GOM finals about equals MSL quarters? So the main difference is Bisu was down a game in his series at the time of the PR.
Though admittedly Flash did lose in the OSL, but it was the group of death. Bisu had no groups of death and, right before the PR, was going into his last tournament at a 0-1 loss. JWD's in article explanation? Bisu's had a lot of practice time so obviously he's going to win!
JWD said it himself, the main reason Bisu is at third is because he's hypothetically as good as always. What a great reason. He holds T1 players to odd standards.Last edit: 2009-08-06 10:50:13 |
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 ghostWriter United States. August 06 2009 22:56. Posts 3302 | Profile Blog # |
Although I like fantasy, I really dislike Bisu for his arrogance and his general attitude. However, his games have shown that he is a top 3 player, even though he lost to zero. As JWD said, ignoring his cheesy 2 gate proxy, his 3rd game showcased his fantastic PvT against the player who is currently acknowledged as the best TvP player as of now. I think someone already mentioned it, but this is Bisu's "worst" matchup (although he currently sports a 60% win which is no mean feat). Flash barely beat Julyzerg in Gom, he should have dominated him as July is simply not on the same level as he is. A win is a win, that's for sure, but he didn't play as well as he should have. He had to play it very safely and although July is a very aggressive player, there were some times when Flash was in trouble and he could have dropped from Gom (although the fact that he is in the finals is indisputable).
JWD is probably biased towards sktt1 as a fan, but this doesn't take away from the fact that these sktt1 players deserve their position on the rank. |
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| TwoToneTerran United States. August 06 2009 23:16. Posts 7990 | Profile # |
How is 3-0 with no cheese "barely" beating someone?
Yeah, Flash barely beat Stork in the OSL finals. Jaedong barely beat Flash in the GOM season 1 finals. Come on now, just because one -- yes, only one game was a heart racer for Flash does not qualify that set as anything more than Flash's typical dismantling of a weaker player. It's why he's undefeated in the whole damn tournament.
I like how you can "ignore" one of Bisu's games, which is one of his two wins. Okay, ignoring that game, Bisu was 1-2 since last PR. 2-2 with cheese? I mean come on.
Bisu is ASSUREDLY a top 3 player, I will never debate against that. Outside of slumps, he's always been a top 3 player. That doesn't mean he's a #3 PR player. Flash? Definitely a top ten player, but obviously not on the rank, right? Same should go for Bisu, who put up mediocre results but got to keep his place because he's Bisu and on SKT1.Last edit: 2009-08-06 23:20:58 |
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 MrHoon  August 06 2009 23:50. Posts 8567 | Profile Blog # |
Man its been a while since I wrote a reply here
Although I do agree JWD is a biased SKT fan (indisputable), but it is unarguable that he does have a point.
I found JWD's judgment harsh not because he kicked Flash out of PR, but rather because he put SKT1 players (who have been doing NOTHING) higher ranked to Flash (who has been doing NOTHING).
People have generally judged Flash harder than other players. When Jaedong was on the brink of the end of his career, iirc he was placed 7th in PR. Why? Who knows. Yet everyone at that day agreed even if JD was out of PR it really wouldn't of made a difference. Flash on the other hand had this unrealistic expectation planted on his face ever since he emerged to the scene. But that's okay because it only proves Flash is still acknowledged by all in a very strange but agreeable way.
But Flash fans, we have to admit Flash has been failing for the past year. Although he isn't as arrogant as he was at ever 2008 OSL, he still is doing poorly. Yes I know flash has the Highest Win percentage of ALL terrans, destroyed every carrier build making carriers from the most overpowered to now a flying paper weight. When Fantasy came with his revolutionary TvZ build, Flash has made his own adjustments making it more popular than the original Fantasy Build. He also has the greatest TvT in the whole world (unarguable). Flash has done many many things for the terran race. But right now, Flash has to prove himself. I know he already did so much at the age of 15 but this is Flash. Flash is not some one matchup wonder, he is not some shitty heir of "Sync" and he definitely is not a bad player.
I for one am happy Iris is doing so good. You know why? Because Flash now actually has 1 shot to prove he is the real thing not some random terran. I was worried Effort was gonna drop out and Flash had no way to prove himself but Flash now has a chance to rise back to the top again.
Now the question is, if Iris wins will we will hear stuff like "IRIS BEAT FLASH, IRIS IS BEST TERRAN NOW" but if Flash beats Iris, what will we hear? "Well it was obvious, flash still sux" or our complimentary "LOL FLASH DOESNT UZE VULTZ N DROPSHIPZ HE SUX FANATSY 4 LIEF"
I am not saying Fantasy is a bad terran. I have said numerous times "Flash = BO1/BO3, Fantasy = BO5." But give the fucking kid a break.
Atleast the OZ Coach Takes care of JD everyday by literally acting like his little bitch.
Flash is all alone in his team. Violet? He sounds like another Lucifer and Tempest to me. Luxury? Oh my god Luxury? ForGG? Well atleast ForGG is somewhat useful but that shitfuck has been slumping ever since stork/much 2:0'd his sorry ass.
Flash is alone. He makes statements of wanting to be on the same team with Fantasy. He can't visit his parents because KTF has chained him down with a fucking contract. He practices with retarded teammates who can't even sustain a 10% win chance. HES STILL IN HIGHSCHOOL AND CANT DRINK
GIVE. THE. KID. A. BREAK.
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And I keep hearing this stupid shit about how "Hey MrHoon, Flash isn't really hated upon, alot of players are hated upon aren't you being a butthurt fanboy?"
No please, shut the fuck up. Go to any livestreams with chat and read what you see in a Flash/Bisu/JD game. During a JD/Bisu game, I can assure you 50% of the chatter dont go "WELL THIS GAME IS BORING I THINK IM GONNA LEAVE NOW CUZ HIS STYLE IS TOTAL SHITFEST." You think your player is more hated upon than Flash for being 'boring', please be my guest and show me any S-Class player who is more hated upon than Flash.
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| MrHoon August 06 2009 23:51. Posts 8567 | Profile Blog # |
Also you know what? PR should be done by someone who is a hardcore Estro/Woongjin/Wemade/MBCgame/Ace fan.
Anyone but the other teams. |
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| Musoeun United States. August 07 2009 01:12. Posts 4324 | Profile Blog # |
On August 06 2009 09:19 ghostWriter wrote:
Violet and 815 won, all Flash had to do is win one more game but he lost to calm AND kal. Why should this massive failure not be included? STX didn't even send out their best lineup.
Let me point something out here:
"..all Flash had to do is win one more game but he lost..." and top players never have bad days? Granted, this set was immensely important to KT's chances. But KHAN won anyway meaning it didn't matter in the end.
"...to Calm AND Kal." Well, damn. If I were going to pick a Protoss and a Zerg to play for me, on the condition they had to be on same team, I can't find a better duo than these two.
Jaedong and BackHo? ...it's BackHo. Effort and Movie/Much? Close, but Movie and Much are both really inconsistent. Yarnc and Horang2? Horang2 would just cheese. YellOw and Reach? ...well, I guess you never know.
Calm, on the other hand, has only been the second or third best Zerg in the Proleague for the entire season and has killer ZvT. Kal's PvT isn't his best matchup, but it's been strong - this year he's split games with HiyA, fantasy, and sKyHigh. HiyA and fantasy are known for their TvP, while the game Kal lost to sKyHigh was a failed cheese.
I'm not excusing the losses - obviously Flash, being Flash, was still favored against both of these players. But to act like dropping games to two - TWO - near S-class players on the same day is a "massive failure" is silly.
(Oh, did I mention that Flash lost to Kal due to an uncharacteristic choice to go for fast vessels rather than his usual super-safe turret ring? Kal scouted and made the correct decision to DT drop - but hit a timing window with probably about three-five seconds to spare. Bad luck, or poor decision-making in one game, call it what you will, but Artosis agrees with me, don't knock Flash for that one.) |
| | Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting. |  |
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| tree.hugger Saint Paul, MN. August 07 2009 02:25. Posts 8975 | Profile Blog # |
On August 06 2009 10:42 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Bisu had worse opponents in the OSL, in which he lost. Flash had worse opponents in the MSL, in which he lost. Right before the PR, both Flash and Bisu had set themselves up to BO5 the same opponent, so there's something lost in the translation on how tough their roads were. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say GOM finals about equals MSL quarters? So the main difference is Bisu was down a game in his series at the time of the PR.
Though admittedly Flash did lose in the OSL, but it was the group of death. Bisu had no groups of death and, right before the PR, was going into his last tournament at a 0-1 loss. JWD's in article explanation? Bisu's had a lot of practice time so obviously he's going to win!
JWD said it himself, the main reason Bisu is at third is because he's hypothetically as good as always. What a great reason. He holds T1 players to odd standards.
This month only.
Bisu played:  fantasy, fantasy again,  ZerO, Iris
Flash played: Thezerg, Kwanro, July, EffOrt
If we keep it to thins month only, I think it's fairly clear who played the better opponents.
***
Mr. Hoon,
I can't equal your passion, but I have one point; the one thing about the "Flash's expectations are too high" argument that I don't like is that I think Flash's expectations (at least mine of him) are right alongside the expectations of Jaedong, Bisu, fantasy and EffOrt. Namely; a deep run in at least ONE starleague. Now obviously Bisu and EffOrt have since tripped up in this catagory, but Flash underperformed both of them. Proleague aside, GOM, aside, Flash did fail to meet anyone's reasonable expectations of how a S-Class player like he should perform. There may be people who hate on him for his style (Being a terran player myself, I love to watch fantasy, and am less a fan of players like Canata and Flash.) but I, for one, don't hate Flash himself, and I don't wish him ill or anything. I'm only holding him to the same expectations I hold the other top flight players to, and Flash did not perform as well as any other S-Class player this starleague season.
EDIT; To T3, below:
Oh god, I'm not going to touch GOM again, I've said all I can say on that. I just don't think it means anything- it's almost an exhibition.Last edit: 2009-08-07 03:38:16 |
| | (-_(-_(-_(-_-)_-)_-)_-) — "The girl was like.... omg effort is so hot, if he can do that with his zerlings i can just imagine what he can do with me lololol" - Heaven_n — EffOrt, Snow, PartinG, HerO, Snute, BK, GuMiho fighting! — @treehuggertl | |
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| TwoToneTerran United States. August 07 2009 02:29. Posts 7990 | Profile # |
Yeah, Bisu went 2-2 and Flash went 6-2. If Bisu's 2-2 was enough to keep his place, then Flash's 6-2 shouldn't have dropped him OFF the PR. Holding both players to the same criteria, Bisu should've dropped place. It's obvious they aren't held to the same, or even remotely similar criteria.
Also Flash, as of now, has performed atleast as well, if not better than Bisu. Flash dropped out of the MSL one round earlier than Bisu, at the same level in the OSL as Bisu, and of course is in the finals of, yes, the less prestigious tournament. So, playing in 3 tournaments and taking on a bigger workhorse in PL than Bisu, Flash did only a little worse in the main tournaments, and still dominated the weaker tournament. If any other person who wasn't Flash did the same as he did, in comparison to Bisu, I'd say they did better this starleague season. Kind of like Iris. Iris has done better this SL season than Bisu.
Jaedong's the true beast, though.Last edit: 2009-08-07 02:33:00 |
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| tree.hugger Saint Paul, MN. August 07 2009 03:40. Posts 8975 | Profile Blog # |
On August 07 2009 03:22 MrHoon wrote:I admitted Flash has been under performing, unless I was spewing shit out of my mouth I do not recall anywhere saying flash has been doing ABSOLUTELY  PERFECTOOO. I've even said I'd give fantasy a run of my money during a BO5 and even though Flash has the better record Fantasy is just alot better at the current state. My argument is that he has not been underperforming so much that he should be considered a fucking failure. EDIT: And yes TwoToneTerran, I don't think anyone denies Jaedong is just beyond every other player
Agreed, he's not a failure. I've never said he is. This has never been about Flash's legacy or career or prospects for the future, it's about his performance last month.
And agree with T3 in that last bit, Jaedong is clearly the best player right now that starcraft has ever seen. But I think there's quite a bit of parity in SC, Bisu, fantasy, EffOrt, and Flash all seem close behind.
New question: What can we expect from the rest of Flash's (surely long) career?Last edit: 2009-08-07 03:46:37 |
| | (-_(-_(-_(-_-)_-)_-)_-) — "The girl was like.... omg effort is so hot, if he can do that with his zerlings i can just imagine what he can do with me lololol" - Heaven_n — EffOrt, Snow, PartinG, HerO, Snute, BK, GuMiho fighting! — @treehuggertl | |
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| TwoToneTerran United States. August 07 2009 03:58. Posts 7990 | Profile # |
| People underrating him constantly until he wins all the leagues and becomes the fourth Terran Bonjwa. |
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| TwoToneTerran United States. August 07 2009 04:53. Posts 7990 | Profile # |
On August 07 2009 04:31 MrHoon wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 07 2009 03:58 TwoToneTerran wrote:
People underrating him constantly until he wins all the leagues and becomes the fourth Terran Bonjwa.
Has anyone told you that you would make an excellent Fortune Teller?
I actually predicted Jaedong winning Batoo GGplay style, but I've never had such a call again. Maybe this will be the next perfect prediction. :o |
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| Nylan United States. August 07 2009 04:58. Posts 795 | Profile Blog # |
On August 07 2009 04:53 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 07 2009 04:31 MrHoon wrote:
On August 07 2009 03:58 TwoToneTerran wrote:
People underrating him constantly until he wins all the leagues and becomes the fourth Terran Bonjwa.
Has anyone told you that you would make an excellent Fortune Teller?
I actually predicted Jaedong winning Batoo GGplay style, but I've never had such a call again. Maybe this will be the next perfect prediction. :o
Ah, so it's your fault. |
| | BeSt/Pure/Canata/Calm - I believe in Doh Jae Wook |  |
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| TwoToneTerran United States. August 07 2009 05:00. Posts 7990 | Profile # |
You say that like it's a bad thing!
Fantasy for Yellow, Jaedong for Boxer! Jaedong needs to 5pool him 3 times in a row in the upcoming bo5. :3Last edit: 2009-08-07 05:01:05 |
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| DreaM)XeRO Korea (South). August 07 2009 07:19. Posts 4667 | Profile Blog # |
On August 07 2009 05:00 TwoToneTerran wrote:
You say that like it's a bad thing!
Fantasy for Yellow, Jaedong for Boxer! Jaedong needs to 5pool him 3 times in a row in the upcoming bo5. :3
or ... we could flip that
fanta will bunk rush 3x in a row. The SKT terran lineage continues |
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| TwoToneTerran United States. August 07 2009 07:30. Posts 7990 | Profile # |
That can't happen because Fantasy LOST in the finals twice in a row. He has to be the continuance of the Hong Jin House.
Jaedong, on the other hand, is a winner. ;p |
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| ghostWriter United States. August 07 2009 07:40. Posts 3302 | Profile Blog # |
| Having a bad day is perfectly understandable. I don't expect or ask for perfection from any player. But Flash dropped those 2 games in the most important series. It matters because if they won, they would have made it to the playoffs, even if Khan won their series (they did). At the very least, they could have tied and forced a tiebreaker, but Flash's poor performance kept them from that and I will hold it against him and use it to justify his absence from this power rank. Dropping games when the stakes were the highest, to players that he should beat is a huge knock (calm is a top 10 player for sure, but Flash is better than him and kal is very good but he's not the player he was during the "6 dragons" period). If it were miracle or baby dropping games to these players, I would expect them to lose and if they lost, I wouldn't hold it against them. But it's FLASH! Flash is a top 3 or 4 player and for him to lose like that means he didn't live up to the standards that he himself set. |
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| TwoToneTerran United States. August 07 2009 07:53. Posts 7990 | Profile # |
It's like you're ignoring all the games he won when the stakes were the highest. Ugh.
That you somehow blame Flash for KT not being in the finals, through the twisted logic of him having one off day is so disrespectful for what Flash accomplished.
And no, I'm pretty sure if they would've won that series and the series vs SKT they would've tied, not won.Last edit: 2009-08-07 07:54:29 |
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