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| Djabanete United States. August 11 2009 09:49. Posts 2234 | Profile Blog # |
On August 11 2009 01:10 EvoChamber wrote:
Don't worry Nylan, Fantasy will be #1 next Power Rank no matter what happens.
Haha, the sarcasm here actually made me laugh.
In all likelihood it will be a well-deserved #1, but if it's a close race we all know who will get the benefit of the doubt.
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| | "Normally, Stork plays pretty normally. ... ... Let me try that again." -Day[9] |
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| scrubtastic August 11 2009 09:54. Posts 612 | Profile # |
On August 11 2009 09:00 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Well, if you define "free" in such a way such that there are "free" ELO points, then there are obviously "free" ELO points.
thank you for both stating the obvious and contributing nothing to the discussion
let me try this again
On August 11 2009 08:28 Avidkeystamper wrote:
There are no free ELO points.
you made this absolute statement here
I disagree with this absolute statement
this is based on the fact that depending on the ELO system, and the game which the system is centered around, if you try and game the system, you can gain more points that you would otherwise not gain if you were playing "normally"
these can be reasonably viewed as free points
+ Show Spoiler +I should have written that other post better to make the humor more obvious
oh well if a couple of people laughed I guess I'll be satisfied and resume just lurking |
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| Avidkeystamper United States. August 11 2009 10:03. Posts 8551 | Profile Blog # |
| So we're both basically blowing empty air since you basically said nothing like I have. |
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| Djabanete United States. August 11 2009 10:07. Posts 2234 | Profile Blog # |
Actually I will make the argument that Flash's high ELO ranking fails somewhat to be representative of where his true skill lies right now. I say this as a long-time Flash fan: he's always been great at rolling over inferior players with extraordinary consistency in every matchup (much more so than Jaedong, Fantasy, or Bisu), but this year he's just not been holding 50% against fellow S-class players. Flash is a player who prioritizes proleague over everything else, and because of his capacity to always win against weak players, he gets a nice ELO cushion from that. Then he gets eliminated from an individual league, and his ELO drops a bit because losses from a good player don't count too much against him. Note that proleague happens all the time, while dropping out of a league can only be done once per league.
Flash's pattern of play (roll proleague with amazing consistency, occasionally drop a league to a high-ELO player) gives him a very high ELO which always seems to be at odds with his performances against other top players (Stork, Jangbi, Kal, Calm, Jaedong, Yarnc, Bisu...). There are no free ELO points, it's true --- but in Flash's case he's just so damn consistent against players below a certain level that those points might as well be free.
Jaedong is more of a roller coaster. He'll win series 2-1 against scrubs, which actually hurt his ELO. He'll drop games to players like Orion and Hyuk. His ELO fluctuates more, I think.
All speculation, of course 
ELO is quantitative, but it isn't everything. |
| | "Normally, Stork plays pretty normally. ... ... Let me try that again." -Day[9] |
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| Avidkeystamper United States. August 11 2009 10:09. Posts 8551 | Profile Blog # |
| There are no free ELO points but Flash's consistently high ELO just shows how it is not a perfect representation of the skill levels of the players. Last edit: 2009-08-11 10:09:37 |
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| Hinanawi United States. August 11 2009 10:15. Posts 2250 | Profile Blog # |
On August 11 2009 10:07 Djabanete wrote:Flash's pattern of play (roll proleague with amazing consistency, occasionally drop a league to a high-ELO player) gives him a very high ELO which always seems to be at odds with his performances against other top players (Stork, Jangbi, Kal, Calm, Jaedong, Yarnc, Bisu...). There are no free ELO points, it's true --- but in Flash's case he's just so damn consistent against players below a certain level that those points might as well be free. Jaedong is more of a roller coaster. He'll win series 2-1 against scrubs, which actually hurt his ELO. He'll drop games to players like Orion and Hyuk. His ELO fluctuates more, I think. All speculation, of course ELO is quantitative, but it isn't everything.
Let's say you had two players.
Player 1:
Wins against B-class players 95% of the time.
Wins against S-class players 50% of the time.
Player 2:
Wins against B-class players 75% of the time.
Wins against S-class players 60% of the time.
It's just a matter of opinion which player is 'better'. Player 1 is a better all-around player, and Player 2 is a better Ace card. You can't look at this and objectively say that Player 2 is better than Player 1. ELO tries to split the difference, and how much you agree with it depends on which 'Player' here you think is preferable.
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| | Favorite progamers (in order): Flash, Stork, Violet, Sea. ||| Get better soon, Violet! |  |
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| scrubtastic August 11 2009 10:46. Posts 612 | Profile # |
On August 11 2009 10:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
So we're both basically blowing empty air since you basically said nothing like I have.
I'm not going to write out "ELO System Exploitation 101" for you, if you care enough you can look it up in your own time
in either case I think I made my point successfully, and your "no free ELO points" is not an absolute despite your continued insistence |
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| EvoChamber France. August 11 2009 10:49. Posts 2500 | Profile Blog # |
Alright, basically yes it is possible to abuse ELO the same way it's possible to abuse any ladder system. Though this has nothing to do with Flash, since he doesn't control who he plays against.
On the other hand, avid's just trolling you. And quite well too!Last edit: 2009-08-11 12:11:59 |
| | That's not awful writing, DAMMIT. It's perfectly sensical english construction. | |
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| Avidkeystamper United States. August 11 2009 10:54. Posts 8551 | Profile Blog # |
On August 11 2009 10:46 scrubtastic wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 11 2009 10:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
So we're both basically blowing empty air since you basically said nothing like I have.
I'm not going to write out "ELO System Exploitation 101" for you, if you care enough you can look it up in your own time in either case I think I made my point successfully, and your "no free ELO points" is not an absolute despite your continued insistence
You haven't even defined what you mean by "free". I haven't either. Therefore, you must be right. |
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 tree.hugger Saint Paul, MN. August 11 2009 11:20. Posts 8989 | Profile Blog # |
On August 11 2009 10:54 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 11 2009 10:46 scrubtastic wrote:
On August 11 2009 10:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:
So we're both basically blowing empty air since you basically said nothing like I have.
I'm not going to write out "ELO System Exploitation 101" for you, if you care enough you can look it up in your own time in either case I think I made my point successfully, and your "no free ELO points" is not an absolute despite your continued insistence
You haven't even defined what you mean by "free". I haven't either. Therefore, you must be right.
Are we serious? Is this even an argument?
Look,  Flash has a high ELO in part because he has not had to face the challenges that other players have had to contend with. He's had an easier time getting those points against JwaJa than he would've against Jaedong. It's pretty simple.
I think Flash is exactly what some people have suggested; one of starcraft's most consistent performers, but not as sexy a player because he relies on rock-solid mechanics as opposed to speed, and surprise. He's not as strong an ace as JD, Bisu, EffOrt, or fantasy. That's why he doesn't perform as his dominant proleague should suggest in starleagues. |
| | (-_(-_(-_(-_-)_-)_-)_-) — "The girl was like.... omg effort is so hot, if he can do that with his zerlings i can just imagine what he can do with me lololol" - Heaven_n — EffOrt, Snow, PartinG, HerO, Snute, BK, GuMiho fighting! — @treehuggertl |  |
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| L0thar August 11 2009 14:40. Posts 986 | Profile Blog # |
On August 11 2009 11:20 tree.hugger wrote:
I think Flash is exactly what some people have suggested; one of starcraft's most consistent performers, but not as sexy a player because he relies on rock-solid mechanics as opposed to speed, and surprise. He's not as strong an ace as JD, Bisu, EffOrt, or fantasy.
Really? I would say Bisu was at least a little bit surprised when Flash cheesed him out from Daum OSL...maybe even more than a little bit after their game on Monty Hall. Maybe even more than JD, when Flash kicked him out from OSL and GSI in span of couple days, when half of their games weren't exactly standard. Speaking about OSL, Flash and cheese, I bet Effort would like to say something too. It's also possible that fantasy wasn't surprised when his double CC got hit by Flash 2-fac in their latest match, but he certainly didn't seem to expect it either.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm really not trying to disregard your post, I acknowledge than some of these things happened years ago...just a couple of nostalgic memories . |
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| o[twist] United States. August 11 2009 16:00. Posts 4903 | Profile # |
| Flash was known as incredibly cheesy as recently as a year ago... |
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 Ver United States. August 11 2009 18:20. Posts 1881 | Profile # |
Say what you will about Flash failings for whatever reason, that's all well and good conjecture, but never ever say Flash wins because of his mechanics. It exposes you as some clueless person who basically makes stuff up. He's not as sexy of a player because he's so smart that the average person doesn't understand why he wins.
In other news, Fantasy is amazingly awesome. I'm really excited to see the builds he'll use vs Jaedong and the winning Sparkyz. |
| | Twitter- @VerInspired |  |
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| darktreb United States. August 11 2009 18:51. Posts 2780 | Profile # |
On August 10 2009 07:38 tree.hugger wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 10 2009 07:16 darktreb wrote:
On August 08 2009 23:36 Hot_Bid wrote:
Also, Fantasy pulled one amazing TvZ comeback (a game that Jaedong really really should have won, as his coach alluded to that in the interview) and one brilliant build, invented by Boxer, that literally any pro Terran could have pulled off given JD's response. I agree that Fantasy is better in TvZ (because you're always scared of what he'll do) but just a week ago people still weren't that sure how good Fantasy's TvZ was because he loses to bad players sometimes and his bio control is still not great for a player of his class (and it wasn't that good against JD on Outsider either, which is part of the reason why JD got a huge lead and even infested a CC at one point...).
Tired of this " fantasy just executes builds that better tacticians come up with" line. Fantasy is by all accounts an excellent tactician in his own right and he has the control to pull of so many strategies. It's disingenuous to suggest that any Terran could've pulled off that build, because that doesn't explain why fantasy is SKT1's #1. Why not Canata? Why not Mong? If fantasy is some mindless robot, then why is he so much better than any other SKT1 Terran? Why is he the best Terran in the game right now?
I've always always always been a defender of Fantasy when people say BS like "without oov Fantasy would be nothing". All I'm saying here is that any Terran could have pulled off this particular build, and I'm right - Fantasy even said as much himself in the post-game interview. Of course, if a lesser Terran had faced Jaedong, he probably would have expected something like this more and made it harder to pull off, which is part of the joy of being Fantasy.
Also for all the people saying stuff like "yeah Flash's ELO is high because he doesn't play that much" remember this guy at least got into RO16 of all three leagues. It's true that making RO8 would have probably hurt his ELO in the end but many other players on the PR only played 1 or 2 out of the 3 leagues so they benefit from this even more.
Of course, Flash got WAY more points than he should have for beating Jwaja because of the way ELO treats unknown players. Regardless, Ver said it best -
On August 11 2009 18:20 Ver wrote:
He's not as sexy of a player because he's so smart that the average person doesn't understand why he wins.
Somewhere somehow Flash got lumped into the Bisu/Jaedong boat of SUPER fast players, when he's always been a mid to high speed Terran (I'm not sure Flash is even faster than Nada actually). Flash's brilliance has manifested itself in his ability to beat, and in some cases dominate, the pro scene with his average speed (and average mechanics - his macro is good but only because he trades off other parts of his game to do it late game, he just doesn't do it as retardedly as say Best). In this specific sense, ironically enough, Flash is the true Savior 2.0. |
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| Djabanete United States. August 12 2009 03:57. Posts 2234 | Profile Blog # |
On August 11 2009 18:51 darktreb wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 10 2009 07:38 tree.hugger wrote:
On August 10 2009 07:16 darktreb wrote:
On August 08 2009 23:36 Hot_Bid wrote:
Also, Fantasy pulled one amazing TvZ comeback (a game that Jaedong really really should have won, as his coach alluded to that in the interview) and one brilliant build, invented by Boxer, that literally any pro Terran could have pulled off given JD's response. I agree that Fantasy is better in TvZ (because you're always scared of what he'll do) but just a week ago people still weren't that sure how good Fantasy's TvZ was because he loses to bad players sometimes and his bio control is still not great for a player of his class (and it wasn't that good against JD on Outsider either, which is part of the reason why JD got a huge lead and even infested a CC at one point...).
Tired of this " fantasy just executes builds that better tacticians come up with" line. Fantasy is by all accounts an excellent tactician in his own right and he has the control to pull of so many strategies. It's disingenuous to suggest that any Terran could've pulled off that build, because that doesn't explain why fantasy is SKT1's #1. Why not Canata? Why not Mong? If fantasy is some mindless robot, then why is he so much better than any other SKT1 Terran? Why is he the best Terran in the game right now?
I've always always always been a defender of Fantasy when people say BS like "without oov Fantasy would be nothing". All I'm saying here is that any Terran could have pulled off this particular build, and I'm right - Fantasy even said as much himself in the post-game interview. Of course, if a lesser Terran had faced Jaedong, he probably would have expected something like this more and made it harder to pull off, which is part of the joy of being Fantasy. Also for all the people saying stuff like "yeah Flash's ELO is high because he doesn't play that much" remember this guy at least got into RO16 of all three leagues. It's true that making RO8 would have probably hurt his ELO in the end but many other players on the PR only played 1 or 2 out of the 3 leagues so they benefit from this even more. Of course, Flash got WAY more points than he should have for beating Jwaja because of the way ELO treats unknown players. Regardless, Ver said it best -
Show nested quote +On August 11 2009 18:20 Ver wrote:
He's not as sexy of a player because he's so smart that the average person doesn't understand why he wins.
Somewhere somehow Flash got lumped into the Bisu/Jaedong boat of SUPER fast players, when he's always been a mid to high speed Terran (I'm not sure Flash is even faster than Nada actually). Flash's brilliance has manifested itself in his ability to beat, and in some cases dominate, the pro scene with his average speed (and average mechanics - his macro is good but only because he trades off other parts of his game to do it late game, he just doesn't do it as retardedly as say Best). In this specific sense, ironically enough, Flash is the true Savior 2.0.
Flash might not be the fastest, but his mechanics are pretty amazing. His multitasking is great, you can see it in his FPVODs. I definitely wouldn't say he has "average" mechanics; rather I'd say he has extraordinary mechanics with an ordinary APM. I'm sure there's a positive correlation between speed and mechanics but they're not at all the same thing.
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| | "Normally, Stork plays pretty normally. ... ... Let me try that again." -Day[9] |
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| Terranist United States. August 12 2009 08:10. Posts 2287 | Profile Blog # |
leta's fall from the PR after getting command center'd just tops it off for me!
disagree with iris somewhat. i thought he did absolutely awful vs perfectman in PL and it showed too much inconsistency. |
| | The Show of a Lifetime |  |
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| TwoToneTerran United States. August 12 2009 12:12. Posts 7990 | Profile # |
| Flash's apm is only 'ordinary' in so much as he plays Terran. He's probably as fast as Bisu and a little slower than Jaedong, it's just less than or equal to doesn't cut it as terran. |
| | Remember Violet. | |
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| Terranist United States. August 12 2009 12:23. Posts 2287 | Profile Blog # |
On August 12 2009 12:12 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Flash's apm is only 'ordinary' in so much as he plays Terran. He's probably as fast as Bisu and a little slower than Jaedong, it's just less than or equal to doesn't cut it as terran.
what? he's just slumping. his apm hasn't changed from what it was in past years when he was utterly dominating everyone in his path including both the players you mentioned. |
| | The Show of a Lifetime | |
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| okum Austria. August 12 2009 14:28. Posts 5700 | Profile Blog # |
It's funny how, when Flash "slumps", he does it with a 73% win rate. (Last 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 month periods are 89%, 73%, 73%, 74%, 73%.)
Yeah, only winning against crap players, etc. |
| | I was a Flash fan before it was cool | Coiner of "jangbang" | |
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| o[twist] United States. August 12 2009 22:51. Posts 4903 | Profile # |
| not sure who is guaranteed a spot on next PR... it's so weird when there's no proleague. do you just include anybody in any final or what |
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