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| Chef August 13 2009 08:14. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
Zerg Building Positioning
Fellow Zergs, do you remember the day Terrans started realising they could fast expand too? Oh how we giggled and snorted and tittered away. How for so long we'd made them think only we could fast expand. Fellow Zergs, do you remember the day Protosses started realising they could fast expand too? Oh how we giggled and snorted and tittered away. How for so long we'd made them think only we could fast expand. But fellow Zergs, they are laughing at us right now. How a Terran knows to place his supply depots just above his barracks to make an impassible wall. How a Protoss knows to place his gateway just above his forge to make an impassible wall. But somewhere inside of us, we're realising we can wall too. We can place are buildings as cleverly as any Protoss or Terran.
+ Show Spoiler +
It's not news to high level Zergs that building positioning is still important. It isn't news now, and it wasn't news in 1999. But so many low level Zergs think that because they're not Protoss or Terran, they don't have any good options or reason to choose especially where they place their buildings. This is a wake up call. I'm telling you it is, and it will save your butt in a lot of games. I'm not a great player myself, so I won't say any of the following are the best positions. But I will say that they have thought in them, and your building positioning needs thought too. Even if it's on the fly and you aren't memorising anything, be sure to keep this is mind next time you play.
This is something I do a lot in ZvZ. The spawning pool is build to the right of the extractor, helping to block my peons that are mining gas. My peons that are mining gas are helping to block the sunken colony from Zerglings as well. With some good drone micro, you can cost your opponent a lot of Zerglings and save yourself a number of drones with these tight spaces. Notice also that the extractor helps to block the sunken. Notice that the sunken protects the most important buildings, the extractor, and the spawning pool (and of course the hatchery and the mineral line). Don't build your spawning pool in some stupid random location in a ZvZ. If you build a second hatchery, and you need a second sunken, you should build your hatchery in such a way that it will help protect your new sunken from two sides. IE right under the first hatchery, 1 or two matrixes to the right.
Remember also that when you build ANYTHING, especially in ZvZ, use the drone that is mining from the farthest minerals to build it, or at least move a drone that was mining from a far away mineral to a close mineral that you just took a drone off of.
+ Show Spoiler [edit] +This is another good wall, which is strong vs vultures, but gives you less bridge control.
Destination is one of the most important maps to be making maximum use of your buildings. Against Terran, the above settup will help prevent a vulture runby. Notice that the Terran would get stuck on your hatcheries and den if he went straight in. Notice that the drones mining minerals and gas would make it still difficult to swoop around. Notice that the sunken is right at the edge between the bridges. This is very good against a meching Terran. Mech is very common on Destination.
+ Show Spoiler [edit] +This one is actually probably better, because it puts your evochamber in less danger, while still making use of it.
Destination ZvP is also demanding in the way you must place your buildings. If your opponent is rushing with many Zealots, and an archon, this can be a powerful settup. Notice how the sunkens are placed behind the buildings. Walled off like cannons behind a forge and gateway. Notice the path zealots must take to get to them for a surrond. Through the drones? How troublesome. An evolution chamber is a small investment even if you don't need the upgrade right away, but defence is critical. Sometimes it's better than another sunken. Imagine your frustration when medics block your zerglings from attacking marines. That is the frustration the Protoss faces in this set up. A-move is not enough against a smart settup.
A fast zealot push is always a pain. Against 2 gate zealots, do you often complain? Learn to position your units then, idiot. Maybe you don't have three hatch, but there is no reason to throw your sunk down way out in front. Put it right beside you hatchery. This will help you. Make sure you leave room for large units (like ultralisks) in the late game to run through.
It isn't limited to just your main, or your natural. All expos should have thought put into them. This settup risks the evolution chamber's saftey, but if you are being threated by a very fast attack, it may be exactly what you need.
Again, I am no expert, and there are probably even better ways to position your buildings than these examples. I just want to stimulate thought about Zerg building positioning, and make sure any nooby Zergs aren't ignoring a very important aspect of Zerg play. Please post positions you've found helpful if you can.
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On August 25 2009 08:57 Chef wrote:The following are visual examples of possible walls. Yellow means lings can go between the buildings, but Zealots can't, Red means neither can. A light blue 'H' means Hydras CAN go between them, but Zealots can't. + Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler [A wall I got really excited over] +EDIT: ******************************************************************** HOOOOLY CRAP :O I believe I've just discovered something incredible. Something possible never seen before, on the oldest map in StarCraft, no less. This wall is ling tight. This wall is not repeatable on any of the other positions, but may be repeatable on other maps. On python I've been able to make zealot tight walls. Creep does not extend close enough to the edge of cliffs facing the south. The only reason this works, is because creep DOES extend very close to the edge of cliffs facing the north, and the THE EAST (and probably the west as well). Why is this important? Think of the ridiculous advantage you'd have in ZvZ if you could make a wall and your opponent couldn't. You get a huge economy, skip ling speed, get insanely fast muta. Wow. And all the cheesy strats you can dream of in ZvP. :O This excites me very much. If you see this opportunity in another map, be sure to post it in this thread. Maybe I'm wrong to get so excited and someone else has seen this before, but I feel like it's new... Something new in an 11 year old game :D In any case, it's a brand new dynamic for map makers to play with, especially if they make it possible at the natural or have an in base expansion so zerg can maintain a good economy. Last edit: 2009-08-25 08:59:47 |
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| gumbum8 United States. August 13 2009 08:27. Posts 689 | Profile Blog # |
| As a D+ zerg who has recently discovered walling, I give this thread an A+ rating, and maybe I'll experiment around with some placements. We need a screen of the 3rd on heartbreak, incase someone doesn't know. |
| | but really, has anyone REALLY been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? |
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| Marine50 Australia. August 13 2009 08:33. Posts 1762 | Profile # |
What about if the Terran runs vultures around the right hand side of your minerals and into your main? He could only take 1 or 2 hits from the sunken and completely bypass it.
Thanks for the zvp positioning on desti. I always have trouble with that |
| | IRIS FIGHTING!!! >> Flash >> Stork >> Jaedong >> the rest |
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| woody_ Spain. August 13 2009 08:35. Posts 38 | Profile # |
Walling is creative! You post very well placed builds.
Last edit: 2009-08-13 08:36:49 |
| | "I was captured by its magic- the powerful and undeniable magic of destiny called Starcraft∙∙∙." Lim Yo Hwan | |
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| ArnO- United States. August 13 2009 08:39. Posts 257 | Profile # | |
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| ArnO- United States. August 13 2009 08:41. Posts 257 | Profile # |
| edit* sorry double post, delete please Last edit: 2009-08-13 08:41:58 |
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| Chef August 13 2009 08:42. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
On August 13 2009 08:33 Marine50 wrote:
What about if the Terran runs vultures around the right hand side of your minerals and into your main? He could only take 1 or 2 hits from the sunken and completely bypass it.
Thanks for the zvp positioning on desti. I always have trouble with that
I think that it still buys you time (imagine what happens without a wall at all?). You also get a lot more than 1 or two hits with the way those bridges are positioned... You'll kill the vulture if it's alone for sure, and if it's not a map with bridges, I always put the sunken closer to the hatchery. It's not like you don't have any zerglings either, it's just that you can't engage vultures with Zerglings in open ground where they have room you micro. But for sure if he's dicking around by your minerals, 4-6 lings will screw him up.
Anyway, if you have a wall that works better than that, or a good reason why the wall is worse than not walling at all, I'd love to hear it. |
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| Chef August 13 2009 08:46. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
Yeah, and even though there are gaps where a zealot can walk between buildings (which would be singlefile and bad anyway) look at the way the morphing eggs make it even harder on the Protoss. Jaedong would have had to spend so much more on defence if he hadn't walled. |
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| ryuu_ United States. August 13 2009 08:50. Posts 1256 | Profile Blog # |
This is great info to know and the images are nice too! haha
Simple placements could cost a game after all  |
| | Kpop. ♣ Jaedong. Stork. Bisu. Calm. NaDa. SC2: Sen, MKP, DRG, MMA, Grubby, NonY, Ret, Jinro, TLO, Sheth, HayprO, Zenio,Taeja,Snute, Sea, Rain, MC,Squirtle,Parting ,Life, and HEROOOOO <3 |
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 Harem United States. August 13 2009 09:03. Posts 9351 | Profile # |
On August 13 2009 08:42 Chef wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 13 2009 08:33 Marine50 wrote:
What about if the Terran runs vultures around the right hand side of your minerals and into your main? He could only take 1 or 2 hits from the sunken and completely bypass it.
Thanks for the zvp positioning on desti. I always have trouble with that
I think that it still buys you time (imagine what happens without a wall at all?). You also get a lot more than 1 or two hits with the way those bridges are positioned... You'll kill the vulture if it's alone for sure, and if it's not a map with bridges, I always put the sunken closer to the hatchery. It's not like you don't have any zerglings either, it's just that you can't engage vultures with Zerglings in open ground where they have room you micro. But for sure if he's dicking around by your minerals, 4-6 lings will screw him up. Anyway, if you have a wall that works better than that, or a good reason why the wall is worse than not walling at all, I'd love to hear it.
Place the sunk closer to the nat gas.
Also, I'd move the den back towards minerals a bit.
And at bottom, I know you can completely seal with spire to left of extractor but I haven't tried it at top. >_>
Awesome thread though. |
| | [iHs]h8m ｡◕‿◕｡ 저그 보고 싶어요 정은지 RIP aers ㅠㅠ |
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| mptj United States. August 13 2009 09:14. Posts 446 | Profile Blog # |
| wow. This is going to be very helpful to nob zergs like me. Great writeup and I can't wait to face some terrans |
| | "Only the Good Die Young" |
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| Murdoink Chile. August 13 2009 09:21. Posts 1219 | Profile # |
| Thanks for the othello pics, I was having trouble defending the 3rd |
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 heyoka Administrator August 13 2009 09:24. | Profile Blog # |
| I have a lot of trouble with Z building placement, thanks a lot for this |
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| icystorage Philippines. August 13 2009 09:39. Posts 3777 | Profile Blog # |
CHEF WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!
oh no, im now afraid of zergs... |
| | Leta for bonjwa | Forever Iris fan | BuGzlToOnl is my hero |
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| APurpleCow United States. August 13 2009 09:41. Posts 1098 | Profile Blog # |
Agreed with Marine50.
Stronger positioning vs vultures:
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 Ziph Netherlands. August 13 2009 09:47. Posts 970 | Profile Blog # |
| Zerg Walls are so imbalanced PvZ damn especialy with some lurker + sunken backup they make entire protoss armies freak out and die. Pisses me off big time ;D Last edit: 2009-08-13 09:49:28 |
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| aokces United States. August 13 2009 09:48. Posts 273 | Profile # |
[/img]
Sunken placement is everything. In the above picture the sunken covers the gas, but doesn't protect your workers mining the bottom minerals. A few marines/vultures behind the mineral line can still do a lot of damage.
Personally I would move the sunken down more, but still enough to cover the extractor from melee units. I've seen a few ZvZ games where one player screwed the other over because he could zergling snipe the extractor before mutas come out, just because the sunken was a tile too low. |
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| KinosJourney2 Sweden. August 13 2009 09:58. Posts 1774 | Profile Blog # |
TBH, i think most Zergs on iccup already walls like that in ZvT (ive seen people do it) but simcity is hot anyways. 
About the third and fourth picture, is it possible to squeeze in a sunk at the mineral line without affecting the mining? |
| | ocho wrote: EDIT: NEVERMIND, THIS THING HAS APM TECHNOLOGY OMG |
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| Chef August 13 2009 10:07. Posts 9708 | Profile Blog # |
On August 13 2009 09:41 APurpleCow wrote:Agreed with Marine50. Stronger positioning vs vultures: + Show Spoiler +
I don't like the bridge control that sacrifices, which becomes important later in the game, but I added it to the OP. |
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| APurpleCow United States. August 13 2009 10:10. Posts 1098 | Profile Blog # |
On August 13 2009 10:07 Chef wrote:I don't like the bridge control that sacrifices, which becomes important later in the game, but I added it to the OP.
=S
What bridge control? If a mech Terran pushes into your natural, I think you're doin something wrong. |
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