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So after watching the NASL finals, and following MC, I've been really intrigued by his PvT. Does anyone have a general build order for how he does his early DT, into mid-game archons? I've been toying with it against friends, but I don't exactly have it pegged down. I'm looking for things on when to build the Twilight Counsel/Dark Shrine, when to expand, whether or not to get things like hallucination for DT warp ins, whether or not to get an early robo. What unit comp should I ultimately be aiming for?
I've been looking for the replays, but they only offer the VOD's from the NASL, and the VOD's don't show much, cause they jump back and forth between the players and such. If anyone has a replay where he does this build for me to study, or the general build order, it'd be much appreciated if I could get those.
What's everyone think of this build anyways? Any terran players have any opinions on it or how to counter it? MC looked pretty unstoppable when he did this, and I'm wondering what a terran would do against that.
Also, apologies for the lack of tag in the thread title. Still new to TL.
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you could build ravens and thors, i bet that would work pretty well.
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archons are very strong pvp and pvt but pvz the z can counter zeolot archon easily
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From what I've observed it stops a lot of terran aggression because it forces scans, for some reason terrans seem to not want to make a raven before pushing out, I guess the gas is too important??
DTs seem to serve the same purpose mutalisks fill in ZvT, keeps terrans in their base long enough for you to take an early third and still have the unit count to defend it.
In some of the vods they will leave the production tab open for most of the game so you can use that to write down the times of most buildings, if you cant get time of all buildings you can get the time of +2 and subtract the upgrade time + the time it takes for a twilight council and thats probably the optimal time to build it, or when charge finishes, or when the first dt comes down subtract the shrine and the... you get the idea.
Good luck.
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MC's build was designed to counter MMM. There isn't really a build, you can start off from anything. (one gate expand, 3 gate expand, etc.) But eventually where you want to end up is at a lot of gateways, upgrades, and a zealot heavy army. Most terrans will respond with standard MMM, and will need to add ghosts to deal with the chargelots. Archons essentially force EMP, every archon that is emp'd is a sentry or a high templar that isn't. The army basically encroaches on the MMM ball, and pressures it into kiting. Once storms are added, the MMM ball eventually crumbles and the terran loses. (Zealots can be replaced easily as you have many gateways).
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I have been doing this a lot at diamond and roflstomping Terrans. I don't have a precise BO really but I basically 3 gate expand with an earlier then normal 2nd gas and twilight/shrine, as I am warping in 2 dt's and sending them to opponents base I throw down my expo.. I can usually split up the dt's and do decent damage with them cause at that point opponent will have at most 1 scan coming, usually they are greedy and have just called down a mule. I can usually keep attacking with DT's and hold the towers and go double forge and a fast 3rd, chargelot, robo for obs and immortals and aim for an archon, chargelot, immortal ball with a few sentries and stalkers..sometimes keep a couple dt's mixed in if they haven't smartened up and got a raven and usually in a big battle guys won't even notice DT's are slicing and dicing their marines up.
I should refine it more but I find the best way to do that is work on it yourself, you will learn the ins and outs and nuances and timings of the build much better then if someone tells you exactly when to build everything.
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This was also how Puzzle played his PvT, seems quite strong. It feels like you could also kite with this like the terran army, go snipe bases then when he arrives go away. Keep HT at all bases for feedback drops and DT to harass their bases, then if they follow you to a small choke you can storm the shit out of them and if they continue to go for it just charge in and kill them.
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On July 17 2011 04:19 Drazzyo wrote: archons are very strong pvp and pvt but pvz the z can counter zeolot archon easily
Archons does damage to biological while zergs all units are biological and half of protoss and terran are mechanical. Archons are psionic and therefore hard to kill aswell.
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I think this is the opening that Huk and MC made together.
You are tricking your opponent to think you are doing a typical 3gate sentry expand. However, you have only 3-4 sentries. The rest of the gas goes into DT tech. I have seen them use this in tournaments. My build order isn't super accurate but works in Diamond league.
Build Order: + Show Spoiler +9 pylon 10 chrono probes twice 15 gate 15 gas 16 pylon 18 gas 19 core 20 zealot 24 pylon 24 sentry 26 warpgate (somewhere in here add 2 gates and build 2-3 more sentries) 27 twilight council 30 dark shrine 40 nexus 44 dark templars
If they do some early 3rax 4gate or roachling then you have to chronoboost your 3 warpgates and delay your DT tech.
If they expand as well, you will be able to harass him until you fully saturate your expansion. You should be researching charge, armour upgrade, adding gateways, and getting ready to do your first push with a strong chargelot archon DT sentry composition.
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On July 17 2011 04:24 PowerDes wrote: MC's build was designed to counter MMM. There isn't really a build, you can start off from anything. (one gate expand, 3 gate expand, etc.) But eventually where you want to end up is at a lot of gateways, upgrades, and a zealot heavy army. Most terrans will respond with standard MMM, and will need to add ghosts to deal with the chargelots. Archons essentially force EMP, every archon that is emp'd is a sentry or a high templar that isn't. The army basically encroaches on the MMM ball, and pressures it into kiting. Once storms are added, the MMM ball eventually crumbles and the terran loses. (Zealots can be replaced easily as you have many gateways).
While I agree with most of your post, the bolded part is just plain wrong. Archons do not force EMP, they are the Counter to EMP.
The main purpose of the Archon in a Zealot-Archon mixture is to beef up your army and be a tanking unit. EMP is essentially splash damage, which means it is absolutely terrible against Archons. Their large unit size mitigates the splash by quite a bit, meaning you aren't hitting as many units and doing as much damage as you could. Even though EMP does its full damage against the Archon, it still has a sizable chunk of its shields left afterwards. The only time you EMP Archons is when you have so many EMPs that you have already hit their whole army and still have a lot left over.
A Tanking unit takes damage while other units finish you off. The enemy wants you to attack the tank. Attacking the tanking unit while it has its support is the worst thing you can do (though if you encounter it without or too far away from its support, feel free to pick it off, if you can do so very quickly. That's how tanking works.)
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got rolled by this the other day, tvp made me rage, literally just because of the wasted scans and splitting dt's to mutlitple expos plus dt's bate EMPs from the archons when youre out of scans strong build
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i love doing this. Mass archons works really well too with storms. emp archons or templars? hard choice, especially since 4 EMPS are needed to de-shield an archon
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How do you counter this as Terran?
Emp is obviously the answer but do I really need like 10 Emps to counter this?
I've been trying Sky Terran since banshees can go back into his base to force the Protoss to stay in his base as well.
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On July 17 2011 05:28 Velladin wrote: How do you counter this as Terran?
Emp is obviously the answer but do I really need like 10 Emps to counter this?
Yes, and there is no reason for not having 5+ghosts in you army in every TvP that goes past 1 base, regardless of protoss composition. That is if you don't suck at basic micro.
Also blue flame hellions and siege tanks with support of barracks units hardcounter this composition. Well and ofc get a raven. I dont know why terrans refuse to use two of their most usefull units (OMG i have to SWAP one addon for a minute!qq).
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Archons aren't the counter to EMP, EMP is the absolute counter to this build lategame. Ghosts actually do very decent autoattack damage against Zealots, and EMP wrecks Archons / HT once you have a decent amount of Ghosts - as EMP is just so much easier to micro than Feedbacks are.
The obvious response once Terran has a lot of Ghosts is to make a few hidden Colossi then take out his base before he gets Vikings, otherwise you're in a world of trouble.
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mass ghosts like 10 or 12 counter this i think.i dont remember but on a gsl match terran player countered this as well but he lost in the end cause of no income.this build eliminates the inmobility of toss death ball (collo ball).and you are very safe against drops.you are mobile , your army is cheap and effective.only 2 effective storm is enough to kill the ball of terran.you dont need to bring all your templars with your ball.just put somewhere in the map.every careless move of terran bio army will cost him a good storm.meta game will switch to archon play in pvt i think.it is very very very effective.this is important that if you 3 base gas mining you need to have tons of gate ways.cause after templar warp you will have tons of minerals.and you dont want to wait for next warp time.
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First of all, I don't understand why you mentioned a zerg player right after saying how "intrigued" you are about PvT... Secondly, he didn't play Moon in the semifinals, he played Sen who is also a zerg..?
Anyway, about the build: The standard type of DT expand is with 3 gateways.. You can either choose to go gateway-gateway-gateway-twilight, or gate-twilight-gate-gate depending on if you scout early pressure or not.. both options are pretty safe to early bio pressure. Remember to only get 1 or 2 sentries (probably only 1) until you throw down the dark shrine, and you'll be cutting units out of your three gateways until the DT's are out.
With the DTs, you should be able to secure your natural expansion and either wreck the SCV line of the terran, or force him to stay inside his base until he can 1) get a raven or 2) build up enough scans to turret push into his own natural.
As far as hallucination and other fishy tactics are concerned, go for it if you want to, but remember that the goal of the DTs is NOT to kill the terran using those kinds of tricks, but to rather contain them in order to gain an economical advantage.
Good transitions against standard MMMG play from the terran include starting charge immediately and dropping a forge. Warping in zealots only, you should build up enough gas to throw down a templar archives. Make sure you take both natural gases. You should then add ~3-4 more gates and a robo. The robo is for observers to spot for drops/scout and the gateways are to boost your zealot HT production. Keep a ratio of about 1 archon per 2 templars. The storm timing should be around the time you take a third, or much earlier if you want to do an 8 gate 2 base chargelot/ht attack.
Don't forget blink and make sure to position your stalkers at drop locations and secure the xel'naga towers.
The big engagement is basically decided upon who can EMP, feedback, or storm better. Ideally, you will have an observer over the terran army to see the ghosts moving forward, and you should cue up feedbacks on them. SPLIT YOUR TEMPLARS, and SENTRIES.
Also, never underestimate late game DTs sent to block expansions, or mass warpins into the main to destroy their production. You can also add DTs into your army (make sure they are in the front!) and the terran will probably never notice them ripping apart the MM.
GL!
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On July 17 2011 06:59 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote: Archons aren't the counter to EMP, EMP is the absolute counter to this build lategame. Ghosts actually do very decent autoattack damage against Zealots, and EMP wrecks Archons / HT once you have a decent amount of Ghosts - as EMP is just so much easier to micro than Feedbacks are.
The obvious response once Terran has a lot of Ghosts is to make a few hidden Colossi then take out his base before he gets Vikings, otherwise you're in a world of trouble.
Way to completely miss the point. I didn't say that EMP wasn't the counter to the build. I said it wasn't the counter to Archons. Simply being Protoss forces EMP. Ghosts are one of the most valuable units in the TvP matchup.
The point I made was that considering the role of the Archon, it is the last unit you want to EMP because of how it mitigates that damage. That doesn't mean that you don't want to EMP the Protoss at all. It means you shouldn't EMP Archons willy nilly when the EMP has other targets that are much much higher priority like HT, Sentry, and large clumps of units.
Also, basing a response on hiding something just isn't good practice. The response should be a solid one that is good regardless of whether it is hidden or not. Hiding something is the icing you throw on the cake and shouldn't be your main strategy.
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On July 17 2011 03:18 Cptn.Canuck wrote: So after watching the NASL finals, and following MC, I've been really intrigued by his PvT. Does anyone have a general build order for how he does his early DT, into mid-game archons? I've been toying with it against friends, but I don't exactly have it pegged down. I'm looking for things on when to build the Twilight Counsel/Dark Shrine, when to expand, whether or not to get things like hallucination for DT warp ins, whether or not to get an early robo. What unit comp should I ultimately be aiming for?
I've been looking for the replays, but they only offer the VOD's from the NASL, and the VOD's don't show much, cause they jump back and forth between the players and such. If anyone has a replay where he does this build for me to study, or the general build order, it'd be much appreciated if I could get those.
What's everyone think of this build anyways? Any terran players have any opinions on it or how to counter it? MC looked pretty unstoppable when he did this, and I'm wondering what a terran would do against that.
Hey Cptn.Canuck, I believe the build you are talking about is the one found in this replay: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/download?id=12011
It seems to be an incredibly tight build, I like it a lot and it is a pretty elegant transition into Archon/Chargelot. The Twilight Council after you get a chronoed Stalker out to deny the scouting SCV. MC cuts probes a bit and lays down gate 2 and 3 at the same time. The Dark Shrine comes out ASAP after the Council, and you should be able to afford it if you build the correct gate units to balance out your resources. He has just enough resources to expand and build some DT's just as the Dark Shrine finishes. He puts down a robo after he expands, although this doesn't come out in time to stop early banshees. It seems you will have to poke the entrance of the T's base to make sure he isn't going banshee, otherwise I get the impression that you will swiftly die.
The build looks completely inconspicuous until you put the Council down, it goes Gate>Gas>Cyb>Gas, so there is no early second gas for the Terran to scout. Even if they scan your 3 gates when you put down the Council it will probably still look like a 3 gate expo I believe. In the replay above SeleCT had a slightly lucky scan where he saw the Council and put down an Engineering Bay immediately, despite this I feel the build still kept SeleCT in his base and did what it was intended to do ie. secure an expansion.
I like this build a lot, but I worry a bit about how well it copes with Terran pushes, the first DT shows up at 7:20, which is a bit late to stop some pushes. I would be interested in seeing how it copes against T aggression if you test it out.
As I said, the build is tight, MC's resources stay super low and everything is timed very nicely.
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