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I decided to take a look at the W/L of Koreans vs Foreigners at the MLGs. I figure we're now 3 MLGs into the GSL/MLG exchange program and it's a good time to see if any progress has been made on the part of the foreigners. Players had to be both of Korean descent and training in Korea to be considered a Korean by me. All others (Select, HuK, etc.) were considered foreigners.
MLG Columbus + Show Spoiler +MMA:- Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
- Overall 10W - 1L vs. foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 91% W/L
- Finished 1st overall
Losira:- Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
- Overall 10W - 2L vs. foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 83% W/L
- Finished 2nd overall
MC: - Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 2nd in pool to Idra.
- Overall 16W - 5L vs. foreigners throughout tournament. Lost 1 set (Idra). 76% W/L
- Finished 3rd overall
Moon: - [nvited and placed into pool play. Finished 3rd in pool behind Naniwa and Slush.
- Overall 8W - 7L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Lost 3 sets (Slush, Naniwa, Huk). 53% W/L
- Finished 8th overall.
July:- Went into pool play via open bracket. Finished 2nd in pool to MMA.
- Overall 12W - 2L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 83% W/L
- Finished 12th overall
Overall the Koreans went a combined 54W - 17L (76%) vs. foreigners at MLG Columbus. They dropped only 4sets (to Idra, Slush, Naniwa, Huk) and claimed the top 3 slots w/ only 5 Koreans in attendance. The top placing foreigner was Idra who finished 4th.
MLG Anaheim + Show Spoiler +MVP- Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
- Overall 8W - 1L vs. foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 89% W/L
- Finished 1st overall
MMA- Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 2nd in pool to Rain.
- Overall 10W - 1L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 91% W/L
- Finished 2nd overall
Boxer- Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
- Overall 10W - 2L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 83% W/L
- Finished 3rd overall
Ganzi- Went into pool play via open bracket. Finished 2nd in pool to MMA.
- Overall 16W - 1L vs foreigners thoughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 94% W/L
- Finished 4th overall
DongRaeGu- Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
- Overall 10W - 1L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 91% W/L
- Finished 5th overall
Rain- Went into pool play as returning player. Finished 1st in pool.
- Overall 11W - 4L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 73% W/L
- Finished 6th overall
Choya- Placed into open bracket. Eliminated from open bracket by Tyler.
- Overall 7W - 5L vs. foreigners throught tournament. Lost 2 sets (Tyler, Incontrol). 58% W/L
- Finished 28th overall
Alicia- Placed into open bracket. Eliminated from open bracket by ToD.
- Overall 2W - 4L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Lost 2 sets (ToD x2). 33% W/L
- Placed outside the top 50.
Overall the Koreans went a combined 74W - 19L (80%) vs. foreigners at MLG Anaheim. They dropped only 4sets (to Tyler, Incontrol and ToD twice) and claimed the top 6 slots w/ only 8 Koreans in attendance. The top placing foreigner was HuK who finished 7th.
MLG Raleigh + Show Spoiler +Bomber- Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
- Overall 9W - 2L vs foreigners thoughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 82% W/L
- Finished 1st overall
Coca- Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 1st in pool.
- Overall 8W - 0L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 100% W/L
- Finished 2nd overall
DongRaeGu- Went into pool play as returning player. Finished 1st in pool.
- Overall 6W - 1L vs foreigners throughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 86% W/L
- Finished 3rd overall
Nada- Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 3rd in pool behind Puma and Kiwikaki.
- Overall 12W - 5L vs foreigners thoughout tournament. Dropped 1 set (Kiwikaki). 71% W/L
- Finished 4th overall
Puma- Went into pool play via open bracket. Finished 1st in pool.
- Overall 8W - 2L vs foreigners thoughout tournament. Did not drop a set. 80% W/L
- Finished 5th overall
Hero- Went into pool play via open bracket. Finished 5th in pool behind DRG. Select, Slush, Trickster.
- Overall 13W - 5L vs foreigners thoughout tournament. Dropped 1 set (Select). 72% W/L.
- Finished 6th overall
Noblesse- Went into pool play via open bracket. Finished 2nd in pool behind Bomber.
- Overall 9W - 3 L vs foreigners thoughout tournament. Dropped 1 set (HuK). 75% W/L
- Finished 9th overall
Rain- Went into pool play as returning player. Finished 4th in pool behind Coca, Naniwa, HuK.
- Overall 9W - 5L vs foreigners thoughout tournament. Dropped 2 sets (HuK, Sjow). 64% W/L
- Finished 13th overall
Trickster- Invited and placed into pool play. Finished 4th in pool behind DRG, Select, Slush.
- Overall 2-7 vs foreigners thoughout tournament. Dropped 4 sets (Select, TLO, Slush, Demuslim). 22% W/L
- Finished 17th overall
Overall the Koreans went a combined 76W - 30L (72%) vs. foreigners at MLG Raleigh. They dropped 9 sets (Select and HuK twice, Sjow, Slush, TLO, Kiwikaki, Demuslim) and claimed the top 6 slots. There were a total of 9 Koreans at the tournament all placing in the top 17. The top placing foreigner was HuK who finished 7th.
Overall Thoughts The koreans have been dominating the MLGs, but some progress is being made. The overall W/L ratio vs foreigners dropped to 72% during this last MLG and Koreans dropped a total of 9 sets to foreigners.
The number of Koreans being eliminated by foreigners is also rising. None were eliminated by foreigners at Columbus, with 2 and 3 being eliminated at Anaheim and Raleigh respectively. This figure however, is somewhat inflated by the number of Koreans in attendance at these events.
Some foreigners are making strides against Koreans. Sjow for example eliminated Rain at Raleigh and has taken games off of Bomber, Hero and Moon. Slush is another player doing well against koreans. He's taken a sets off Trickster and Moon as well as games off DRG, Hero and Rain.
Although I don't think a foreigner will win an MLG the rest of this season, I could see a foreigner placing top 3 and stealing the GSL Code S slot. What do you think?
Poll: Will a foreigner place top 3 at any remaining MLG this season?No (892) 73% Yes (336) 27% 1228 total votes Your vote: Will a foreigner place top 3 at any remaining MLG this season? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
EDIT: For those Korean players coming from the open bracket (Ganzi, July, etc.), I only counted their games vs. well known foreigners. For example, July beat d_wAy in his first match at MLG Columbus. This match occurred in the open bracket and I did not count this match towards his overall W/L vs. foreigners. I did count his matches in the open bracket against more well known players such as Agh and Optikzero.
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Ah domination There were a lot of close series though. The top foreigners all did really well, and that was good.
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Only person i currently see having a chance at top 3 is a huk who has a good practice schedule and not the constant traveling like he did last month.
For the rest i dont see anyone breaking the Korean dominance.
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Top 3, probably not. Top 6, I would think so. Huk and Nani have been close, and with the number of foreigners going overseas, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a foreigner won an MLG in the next year.
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All MLG's combined
Huk 3 Select 2 ToD 2 Slush 2 Sjow 1 Idra, 1 Naniwa 1 Tyler 1 Incontrol 1 TLO 1 Kiwikaki 1 Demuslim 1
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You have to take into consideration the skill of the koreans that came to this mlg.
Placing top 3 depends on which koreans are invited/turn up, if you bring koreans who hardly practice (trickster, fruitdealer) sure foreigners will do well and likely place top 3. but tip top koreans? no chance
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Slowly some foreigners will rise through to compete against Koreans, but only those (such as Huk) who are willing to train w/ them or at least to the same degree as them. Anyone who commits longterm to Korea will be able to compete, and with some NA teamhouses opening up, it may help raise the level of foreigners as well.
As far as this season goes, I'm not sure if anyone will be able to break through for a top3, unless they really go on a run. Huk probably has one of the best chances, but only if his travel schedule gets a bit easier.
Next season I think there will be a better chance as more NA players seem committed to trying to compete with the Koreans. Hopefully they are willing to put in the longterm commitment needed though.
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good post, interesting info, nice name :D i think it's great to see people doing better vs the koreans. nothing against the koreans, but the ideal scene would be one where nobody has a huge skill gap below them and every game is tight and exciting.
but it kind of bugged me. isn't set another word for a single game? would "match" not be the better term? confused me more than once...
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I don't really see any top 3's coming, but who know, things could change around a bit. I think HuK does have a chance if he's not exhausted, but he seemed rather thrown off by the Zerg strategies thrown at him this tournament (only watched his matches vs Coca and I'm by no means an expert). If he practices hard and rests up some I think he's still a contender for around top 5. There were some great matches in Raleigh, and a lot of them were very close. I can't rule out the possibility, but I really don't think top 3 is going to happen.
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On August 30 2011 01:01 scarymeerkat wrote: good post, interesting info, nice name :D i think it's great to see people doing better vs the koreans. nothing against the koreans, but the ideal scene would be one where nobody has a huge skill gap below them and every game is tight and exciting.
but it kind of bugged me. isn't set another word for a single game? would "match" not be the better term? confused me more than once...
a set is match.
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a place in top6 is doable even thou highly unlikely, the top invites form korea will always beat the shit out of foreigners, no foreigner could touch drg bomber or coca and i dont see foreigners improve at any rate they would need to actually pull off some stunt
but who really cares, even thou slashers tears are delicious in the end the best player should win and thats whats happening in mlg so far
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Trickster screwing up the koreans win rates, lolz
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Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
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I do think that, with more and more foreigners going to Korea, there is a good chance a foreigner could get top 3 at Orlando or Providence. I personally can see a lot coming out of Sjow and NaNiwa. With these two to be training in Korea, their already great results will be backed up with some great training. Will it be enough for a top 3 finish? I'm hoping so.
Also, we saw some great games with both SeleCT and KiWiKaKi - if they keep training hard, they could definitely make a larger splash in upcoming MLGs.
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MrMoose
Canada176 Posts
On August 30 2011 01:02 RealQ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 01:01 scarymeerkat wrote: good post, interesting info, nice name :D i think it's great to see people doing better vs the koreans. nothing against the koreans, but the ideal scene would be one where nobody has a huge skill gap below them and every game is tight and exciting.
but it kind of bugged me. isn't set another word for a single game? would "match" not be the better term? confused me more than once... a set is match.
I think game/series would be less ambiguous.
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I am confident that by MLG Orlando, we will finally have a top three foreigner
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Why not? Patch is coming. Both Huk and Naniwa are talented, hardworking and practice in korea. At least one of them ( hopefully both ) can make a breakthrough.
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On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Uhh...yes it is? He says they have to both be korean and living in korea. Neither Huk or Select fulfill both of those requirements...
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i think a lot of the anomaly this tournament had to do with the dynamics of protoss right now. i don't want to turn this into a balance thread, but it's pretty undeniable that protosses are having a lot of trouble with both pvz and pvt. this accounts for displays like hero versus sjow, which were way closer than one would have expected. i think select is possibly the best example of someone who has benefitted from the current metagame. he's a strong player, but in terms of achievements i don't think many would have picked him over huk. yet, he pulled off a very convincing win against a huk who, while not playing his best, didn't exactly make any terrible errors. i think this sort of fluctuation is to be expected whether the game is balanced or not, and since winrates for protoss have been a bit low as of late, it stands to reason that strong foreigners can take games off of weaker koreans.
of course, this doesn't account account for certain sets (kiwi vs nada, for instance) but i don't think it's so much that foreigners are making progress as it is the state of the metagame combined with the slightly weaker pool of koreans.
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On August 30 2011 01:09 jj33 wrote: Nice work. But you say you count Koreans as of Korean descent and living in Korea.
Using that criteria, you are being inconsistent. You count select as a foreigner just because he lives in America, but you still count huk as a foreigner when he's living in korea.
either you count select as a korean and huk foreigner or count huk as a korean as well.
I don't agree with all these arbitrary rules, I view huk as a foreigner and select as a korean.
but I wanted to bring that up as your criteria isn't consistent.
Select is Korean, but not practicing in Korea - Moved to foreigner using my criteria. HuK is American/Canadian - Moved to foreigner using my criteria.
They must be BOTH of korean descent and living / practicing in korea.
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