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As most of you have noticed, recently in GSL and most of the major tournaments, Zerg players are mostly staying on 2 bases defensive play, waiting for lair tech to kick in. Terran often is the one being able to get their 3rd up first with domination in map control.
Same goes with PvT where the Protoss cant really afford the fast 3rd: every fast 3rd build requires you to stay on low unit/low tech and spread your army out so thin to be able to deal with multi fronts attack. White-Ra did try out some prism harass into fast 3rd but Terran(Select) could then just immediately counter attack and destroy the build.
The reason for this phenomenal is because terran tier 1 (marine marauder stim) is really strong in PvT, same go for Hellion in PvZ. These help Terran player gain early map control therefore the ability to fast expand to 3rd. Best example for this play style recently could be: + Show Spoiler + +MVP vs Leenock where MVP pressure with hellions and place down double CC(2nd and 3rd). Semi Final code S +JYP vs bomber where JYP get a really fast 3rd nexus and got crushed by multi fronts pressure. Code A ro32
So the question is, is that really possible to obtain a fast 3rd base vs Terran in the current meta game without taking risks? Given map such as Calm before the storm or belshir or antiga where 3rd is not blocked by a rock.
Please avoid balance discussion and focus more on strategy construction.
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As zerg its obviously difficult to take a third against hellion openers without roaches. Even if you do you are spreading yourself out and making yourself more susceptible to any sort of 1base aggression. Fully saturating 2 bases and making a macro hatch instead of a third doesn't really hurt your economy and is a overall more solid style of play imo as it makes it easier to apply pressure if you want. You can't really rush a third without risks, but if you have roaches + good creep spread to your third they are pretty minimized.
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Unless they are making like >9000 hellions or getting blue flame, can't you get away with speedlings and a few spine crawlers? (by >9000 I mean 6 or greater) It always works for me, but I may be playing against really poor players @ the diamond level.
As I am playing at a lower level, I can take my 3rd safely, but if my opponents were better, I don't think there would be a huge difference-Terran as a race has many options, but they can only do so many things at any given time, limited by their economy, which they will only be getting up (finishing) relatively soon after the 4 hellions.
I may just not know enough, could you help me in understanding how its not safe to take a 3rd relatively quickly? I saw some of it at DH:winter 2011, but didn't understand the reasoning behind it or why it wasn't particularly safe.
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Sry but, + Show Spoiler + is not a valid example, they traded bases cause they moved past each other, had nothing to do with multipronged attacks.
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On November 30 2011 00:18 NB wrote: So the question is, is that really possible to obtain a fast 3rd base vs Terran in the current meta game without taking risks? Given map such as Calm before the storm or belshir or antiga where 3rd is not blocked by a rock.
Please avoid balance discussion and focus more on strategy construction.
I don't think it is a Problem with Terran, it is just how the game works
The reason a fast second is safe is that you can not afford Units and Tech really early on, early enough to punish it to death(most of the time). This changes regarding the third Base. If you take a fast second base your army supply will be less than the supply of 1 Base untill maybe 2-3 minutes after you started mining from it, then it will skyrocket. If you take a fast third, e.g. in the time before you got the value back for your second base you will still be on less/the same army supply as a one-basing player untill maybe 6-7 minutes after you took your second base, leaving about 4 minutes to kill you off. The problem is that your 2 Basing player can tech to whatever he wants slowly and still have it in time to punish your third base, having about the same amount of "basic" units (Warpgate, Hatchtech, Barracks without Ghosts and Helions).
I hope you understand what I mean.
I try to illustrate in the worst possible way(no other way available right now)
The bars represent your money for Fighting Units/Tech
How 1 Base eco feels: _______________ How 1 Base eco is: _______________ How 2 Base eco feels: ____------------------- How 2 Base eco is: _________----------- How 3 Base eco feels:_____------°°°°°°°°°° How 3 Base eco is: ____________-°°°°°
Just imagine that at the "How X Base eco is" part your income is slightly lower than on "how it feels" before the expansion kicks in.
A Zerg that takes a super fast third dies to 7-8 Gate allin, Terrans actually do you a favour by letting you not take the third this early. Imagine a Marine/Marauder Helion Tank push before speedbanes and Mutas. If you would time it just right you could end up with 3 Tanks a ton of MM and like 6 Helions, how will your slow Banelings/Roaches/Zerglings defend? They won't. Why Terran does it, is to limit the creepspread and only that, so that your third still is voulnerable later on. I don't believe Helions will be the Unit of choice forever, since early Roach counter attacks can do SOOO much damage. I have also seen fast 3 Base play from Terrans do a nice amount of damage with Helions and instantly die to a counter attack (like lifting second and third, pulling all Units up the ramp and stay there for 2-3 Minutes while zerg/Protoss gets a safe 3rd and still has more money to spend on army)
TLDR;
It is in the macro mechanics of the game that early thirds always are very risky.
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On November 30 2011 00:55 rEalGuapo wrote: A Zerg that takes a super fast third dies to 7-8 Gate allin, Terrans actually do you a favour by letting you not take the third this early.
Thats just not true, every zerg is taking a fast third against ffe, if u would autolose to gatewaypushes, u really think they would do it ? They know that by the time these pushes come they already have their base up for a while, they have time to drone and then crank out units, exactly what were seeing the last months, cause a protoss that ffe´d cant pressure until like 8min. Ure just wrong with that statement.
edit: i dont know why u actually talk about zvp, cause this is actually about the Terran Matchups ...
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but "macro hatches" are not so frowned upon (compared to quick thirds), but sometimes the difference is negligible.
say... metalopolis, close by air.
why wouldn't you put your macro hatch on your third?
you would have to make at least 5 roaches to protect your natural and the third from hellions, but that doesn't sound bad at all
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On November 30 2011 01:01 Broesl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 00:55 rEalGuapo wrote: A Zerg that takes a super fast third dies to 7-8 Gate allin, Terrans actually do you a favour by letting you not take the third this early.
Thats just not true, every zerg is taking a fast third against ffe, if u would autolose to gatewaypushes, u really think they would do it ? They know that by the time these pushes come they already have their base up for a while, they have time to drone and then crank out units, exactly what were seeing the last months, cause a protoss that ffe´d cant pressure until like 8min. Ure just wrong with that statement.
Well in that case I guess all those wins I had against greedy Zergs were imagined. Yes you can hold a third but only if Protoss makes a mistake (not cutting Probes early enough, letting Lings in early getting Warpin Pylons/Probes sniped / delayying +1 too fast that sort of stuff)
I am 100% certain, both by experience and by what I have seen that a 6 minute three basing Zerg dies to Protoss or is severly crippled.
And yes I can't pressure untill the 8th minute, but I will have +1 Zealots that shred through your Zerglings, +1 Stalkers with a huge amount of Forcefields to kill your Roaches and I will almost match you in Production, but my Units warp in clustered and yours run in from different Sides.
edit: I talk about ZVP TVP TVZ because it is not matchup specific, which was the whole point of my post -.-
Also to get any value out of a third base you need more than 32 Workers on Minerals, so with 4 Gas over 44 total, before you have like 60 Workers your Third will put you far behind for 3-4 Minutes. (A worker harvests 50 Minerals in 70 Seconds + 17 seconds building time) So it takes the Worker to 70 seconds of pure mining time to pay back its worth if less than 17 Workers are on minerals, it takes about 90ish if it is less than 25. Considering the 350 Minerals on your hatch you will need like 1.5 Minutes of perfect saturated mining to get out with +-0, IF and only if you have all your bases perfectly saturated, meaning a total of 48 Mineral mining Workers.
Therefore if you get up to say 60 Drones and have your thirdbase mining for 20-30 seconds you should die because you miss like 1300 minerals worth of army.
How about an army worth 3k resources against 1.7k? Yeah... those ARE realistic numbers.
the math is not 100% accurate but it is close.
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You can possibly take a third if you KNOW the terran is. However something to consider - They can produce the command center inside their base and will do a lot of the time. You can't scout this stuff because presumably your robo is late (?).
Another issue is that a terrans composition will arise quicker due to it's heavier reliance on minerals.
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On November 30 2011 01:05 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 01:01 Broesl wrote:On November 30 2011 00:55 rEalGuapo wrote: A Zerg that takes a super fast third dies to 7-8 Gate allin, Terrans actually do you a favour by letting you not take the third this early.
Thats just not true, every zerg is taking a fast third against ffe, if u would autolose to gatewaypushes, u really think they would do it ? They know that by the time these pushes come they already have their base up for a while, they have time to drone and then crank out units, exactly what were seeing the last months, cause a protoss that ffe´d cant pressure until like 8min. Ure just wrong with that statement. Well in that case I guess all those wins I had against greedy Zergs were imagined. Yes you can hold a third but only if Protoss makes a mistake (not cutting Probes early enough, letting Lings in early getting Warpin Pylons/Probes sniped / delayying +1 too fast that sort of stuff) I am 100% certain, both by experience and by what I have seen that a 6 minute three basing Zerg dies to Protoss or is severly crippled. And yes I can't pressure untill the 8th minute, but I will have +1 Zealots that shred through your Zerglings, +1 Stalkers with a huge amount of Forcefields to kill your Roaches and I will almost match you in Production, but my Units warp in clustered and yours run in from different Sides. edit: I talk about ZVP TVP TVZ because it is not matchup specific, which was the whole point of my post -.-
so how do zergs win anything against protoss ? please for god sake watch some pro games, every good zerg is taking a REALLY fast third, at 5min, and every protoss at the pro level knows this and have complained about the econ they cant compete with, do u really think that if a simple 2base allin that doesnt require any skill would kill those zergs, protoss wouldnt have picked up on that. For ur own experience, what League are u in ?
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On November 30 2011 01:26 Broesl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 01:05 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 30 2011 01:01 Broesl wrote:On November 30 2011 00:55 rEalGuapo wrote: A Zerg that takes a super fast third dies to 7-8 Gate allin, Terrans actually do you a favour by letting you not take the third this early.
Thats just not true, every zerg is taking a fast third against ffe, if u would autolose to gatewaypushes, u really think they would do it ? They know that by the time these pushes come they already have their base up for a while, they have time to drone and then crank out units, exactly what were seeing the last months, cause a protoss that ffe´d cant pressure until like 8min. Ure just wrong with that statement. Well in that case I guess all those wins I had against greedy Zergs were imagined. Yes you can hold a third but only if Protoss makes a mistake (not cutting Probes early enough, letting Lings in early getting Warpin Pylons/Probes sniped / delayying +1 too fast that sort of stuff) I am 100% certain, both by experience and by what I have seen that a 6 minute three basing Zerg dies to Protoss or is severly crippled. And yes I can't pressure untill the 8th minute, but I will have +1 Zealots that shred through your Zerglings, +1 Stalkers with a huge amount of Forcefields to kill your Roaches and I will almost match you in Production, but my Units warp in clustered and yours run in from different Sides. edit: I talk about ZVP TVP TVZ because it is not matchup specific, which was the whole point of my post -.- so how do zergs win anything against protoss ? please for god sake watch some pro games, every good zerg is taking a REALLY fast third, at 5min, and every protoss at the pro level knows this and have complained about the econ they cant compete with, do u really think that if a simple 2base allin that doesnt require any skill would kill those zergs, protoss wouldnt have picked up on that. For ur own experience, what League are u in ?
Who said it requires no skill? You need to scout the third base and the Drone saturation. You need to time everything just right. You need to sneak out Warpin Pylons. You need good Unit control if you get delayed, which you will. You need to be runby proof. You need to constantly watch your army and still use Chronoboost+build good timed pylons. You need to protect Pylons and still do damage to the econ. If Zerg reacts right he will instantly cut Drones and have a stronger army.
Since you asked, I'm Master. I watch tons of pro games. Not every Zerg takes a 5min. third.
I think your view of "well if I don't see it in every game in the GSL it can't be good." and "Zerg always takes super fast third and wins." is a little too black and white.
And honestly I think the reason why people don't do it is because the game isn't figured out and people want to explore non-allin builds that can deal with everything, which is fine. Still I believe that taking a super fast third (as in take it before you have a lot of production and/or tech) should in theory lose to 2 Base play. What people make of it is a different story........
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I dont know if this Thread is ZvT only, sry if thats the case.
During Dreamhack this weekend I saw + Show Spoiler +a game between Seiplo (P) and SarenS (T) on TDA where SarenS went for a Gaseless FE while Seiplo did a 2 Gas 1 Gate FE (1Stalker+Sentries) and responded with a fast 3rd (Brush Spot) upon scouting SarenS. Saren transitioned into a fast Bio-Push (prob Ghosts but not sure) which was delayed by Seiplo FFing his Ramp and due to that Seiplo was able to muster enough forces to repell the push. After that it was oc very onesided 3 Bases against 2 and Seiplo eventually won.
Although this Build obviously has some risks I was very impressed so I did some math and compared 2 Builds via Replay-Timings It turned out that compared to a regular 2 Gas 1 Gate FE this fast 3rd Build hovers roughly around the same useable ressources (Ressources spent + Ressources banked - 62.5 Minerals x Probes) until Minute 10 and then explodes in Income, assuming constant probe production and splitting your workers early on for sub- to optimal (<16) Saturation as long as possible. Essentially you play like 2 Base but very defensively until Minute 10 and then you have 3 Bases fully saturated and can pound Terran down with endless Warpins. In addition your Main will not be mined out for a long time.
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On November 30 2011 02:46 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 01:26 Broesl wrote:On November 30 2011 01:05 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 30 2011 01:01 Broesl wrote:On November 30 2011 00:55 rEalGuapo wrote: A Zerg that takes a super fast third dies to 7-8 Gate allin, Terrans actually do you a favour by letting you not take the third this early.
Thats just not true, every zerg is taking a fast third against ffe, if u would autolose to gatewaypushes, u really think they would do it ? They know that by the time these pushes come they already have their base up for a while, they have time to drone and then crank out units, exactly what were seeing the last months, cause a protoss that ffe´d cant pressure until like 8min. Ure just wrong with that statement. Well in that case I guess all those wins I had against greedy Zergs were imagined. Yes you can hold a third but only if Protoss makes a mistake (not cutting Probes early enough, letting Lings in early getting Warpin Pylons/Probes sniped / delayying +1 too fast that sort of stuff) I am 100% certain, both by experience and by what I have seen that a 6 minute three basing Zerg dies to Protoss or is severly crippled. And yes I can't pressure untill the 8th minute, but I will have +1 Zealots that shred through your Zerglings, +1 Stalkers with a huge amount of Forcefields to kill your Roaches and I will almost match you in Production, but my Units warp in clustered and yours run in from different Sides. edit: I talk about ZVP TVP TVZ because it is not matchup specific, which was the whole point of my post -.- so how do zergs win anything against protoss ? please for god sake watch some pro games, every good zerg is taking a REALLY fast third, at 5min, and every protoss at the pro level knows this and have complained about the econ they cant compete with, do u really think that if a simple 2base allin that doesnt require any skill would kill those zergs, protoss wouldnt have picked up on that. For ur own experience, what League are u in ? Who said it requires no skill? You need to scout the third base and the Drone saturation. You need to time everything just right. You need to sneak out Warpin Pylons. You need good Unit control if you get delayed, which you will. You need to be runby proof. You need to constantly watch your army and still use Chronoboost+build good timed pylons. You need to protect Pylons and still do damage to the econ. If Zerg reacts right he will instantly cut Drones and have a stronger army. Since you asked, I'm Master. I watch tons of pro games. Not every Zerg takes a 5min. third. I think your view of "well if I don't see it in every game in the GSL it can't be good." and "Zerg always takes super fast third and wins." is a little too black and white. And honestly I think the reason why people don't do it is because the game isn't figured out and people want to explore non-allin builds that can deal with everything, which is fine. Still I believe that taking a super fast third (as in take it before you have a lot of production and/or tech) should in theory lose to 2 Base play. What people make of it is a different story........ I see both points. But i don't think it's up to the protoss whether the third is denied or not. If an overlord sees 1-2 gates, and 6-7 incoming,drones will be cut, spines will be placed, and units will be mustered. After that point even if the toss doesn't fuck up it's very possible for zerg to hold, depending on how streamlined his opening is(injects, 2 stalker/1zeal1stalker pressure didn't kill multiple drones etc). The advantage is deff in the favor of the 8gating toss. I don't think fast third should lose 2 base play in general. certain 2 base play sure. 8gate can DEFF kill of a lot of zergs taking a fast third. But anything else, stargate play, 6gate push into securing 3rd, all can be held on 3base as long as you scout the toss timings.
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On November 30 2011 02:46 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 01:26 Broesl wrote:On November 30 2011 01:05 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 30 2011 01:01 Broesl wrote:On November 30 2011 00:55 rEalGuapo wrote: A Zerg that takes a super fast third dies to 7-8 Gate allin, Terrans actually do you a favour by letting you not take the third this early.
Thats just not true, every zerg is taking a fast third against ffe, if u would autolose to gatewaypushes, u really think they would do it ? They know that by the time these pushes come they already have their base up for a while, they have time to drone and then crank out units, exactly what were seeing the last months, cause a protoss that ffe´d cant pressure until like 8min. Ure just wrong with that statement. Well in that case I guess all those wins I had against greedy Zergs were imagined. Yes you can hold a third but only if Protoss makes a mistake (not cutting Probes early enough, letting Lings in early getting Warpin Pylons/Probes sniped / delayying +1 too fast that sort of stuff) I am 100% certain, both by experience and by what I have seen that a 6 minute three basing Zerg dies to Protoss or is severly crippled. And yes I can't pressure untill the 8th minute, but I will have +1 Zealots that shred through your Zerglings, +1 Stalkers with a huge amount of Forcefields to kill your Roaches and I will almost match you in Production, but my Units warp in clustered and yours run in from different Sides. edit: I talk about ZVP TVP TVZ because it is not matchup specific, which was the whole point of my post -.- so how do zergs win anything against protoss ? please for god sake watch some pro games, every good zerg is taking a REALLY fast third, at 5min, and every protoss at the pro level knows this and have complained about the econ they cant compete with, do u really think that if a simple 2base allin that doesnt require any skill would kill those zergs, protoss wouldnt have picked up on that. For ur own experience, what League are u in ? Who said it requires no skill? You need to scout the third base and the Drone saturation. You need to time everything just right. You need to sneak out Warpin Pylons. You need good Unit control if you get delayed, which you will. You need to be runby proof. You need to constantly watch your army and still use Chronoboost+build good timed pylons. You need to protect Pylons and still do damage to the econ. If Zerg reacts right he will instantly cut Drones and have a stronger army. Since you asked, I'm Master. I watch tons of pro games. Not every Zerg takes a 5min. third. I think your view of "well if I don't see it in every game in the GSL it can't be good." and "Zerg always takes super fast third and wins." is a little too black and white. And honestly I think the reason why people don't do it is because the game isn't figured out and people want to explore non-allin builds that can deal with everything, which is fine. Still I believe that taking a super fast third (as in take it before you have a lot of production and/or tech) should in theory lose to 2 Base play. What people make of it is a different story........
It's entirely possible that it works because you're playing against bad players. A 3-base, 4-hatch roach/ling zerg vs FFE should not have 4 gases, they should have 3 unless you've delayed your attack to take a 3rd and allowed zerg to tech. 3-base, 4-hatch vs FFE is standard because it is a safe way to deal with FFE and leaves zerg in a good spot if they scout and react correctly. Those warp-gate timing attacks waiting for 2-base saturation are too delayed and allow a zerg to saturate 3 bases and mass units off 4hatches. Protoss will just get out-supplied and out-reinforced by a zerg hitting injects and having 25+ larva per 45 secs and 3base mineral econ. This is why you see professional level protoss employing FFE into stargate, prism harass, +1 zealot pressures, etc. because a FFE -> 7- or 8-gate timing attack is easily defended by mass ling/roach. Pressure needs to be applied earlier.
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On November 30 2011 04:54 scorch- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 02:46 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 30 2011 01:26 Broesl wrote:On November 30 2011 01:05 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 30 2011 01:01 Broesl wrote:On November 30 2011 00:55 rEalGuapo wrote: A Zerg that takes a super fast third dies to 7-8 Gate allin, Terrans actually do you a favour by letting you not take the third this early.
Thats just not true, every zerg is taking a fast third against ffe, if u would autolose to gatewaypushes, u really think they would do it ? They know that by the time these pushes come they already have their base up for a while, they have time to drone and then crank out units, exactly what were seeing the last months, cause a protoss that ffe´d cant pressure until like 8min. Ure just wrong with that statement. Well in that case I guess all those wins I had against greedy Zergs were imagined. Yes you can hold a third but only if Protoss makes a mistake (not cutting Probes early enough, letting Lings in early getting Warpin Pylons/Probes sniped / delayying +1 too fast that sort of stuff) I am 100% certain, both by experience and by what I have seen that a 6 minute three basing Zerg dies to Protoss or is severly crippled. And yes I can't pressure untill the 8th minute, but I will have +1 Zealots that shred through your Zerglings, +1 Stalkers with a huge amount of Forcefields to kill your Roaches and I will almost match you in Production, but my Units warp in clustered and yours run in from different Sides. edit: I talk about ZVP TVP TVZ because it is not matchup specific, which was the whole point of my post -.- so how do zergs win anything against protoss ? please for god sake watch some pro games, every good zerg is taking a REALLY fast third, at 5min, and every protoss at the pro level knows this and have complained about the econ they cant compete with, do u really think that if a simple 2base allin that doesnt require any skill would kill those zergs, protoss wouldnt have picked up on that. For ur own experience, what League are u in ? Who said it requires no skill? You need to scout the third base and the Drone saturation. You need to time everything just right. You need to sneak out Warpin Pylons. You need good Unit control if you get delayed, which you will. You need to be runby proof. You need to constantly watch your army and still use Chronoboost+build good timed pylons. You need to protect Pylons and still do damage to the econ. If Zerg reacts right he will instantly cut Drones and have a stronger army. Since you asked, I'm Master. I watch tons of pro games. Not every Zerg takes a 5min. third. I think your view of "well if I don't see it in every game in the GSL it can't be good." and "Zerg always takes super fast third and wins." is a little too black and white. And honestly I think the reason why people don't do it is because the game isn't figured out and people want to explore non-allin builds that can deal with everything, which is fine. Still I believe that taking a super fast third (as in take it before you have a lot of production and/or tech) should in theory lose to 2 Base play. What people make of it is a different story........ It's entirely possible that it works because you're playing against bad players. A 3-base, 4-hatch roach/ling zerg vs FFE should not have 4 gases, they should have 3 unless you've delayed your attack to take a 3rd and allowed zerg to tech. 3-base, 4-hatch vs FFE is standard because it is a safe way to deal with FFE and leaves zerg in a good spot if they scout and react correctly. Those warp-gate timing attacks waiting for 2-base saturation are too delayed and allow a zerg to saturate 3 bases and mass units off 4hatches. Protoss will just get out-supplied and out-reinforced by a zerg hitting injects and having 25+ larva per 45 secs and 3base mineral econ. This is why you see professional level protoss employing FFE into stargate, prism harass, +1 zealot pressures, etc. because a FFE -> 7- or 8-gate timing attack is easily defended by mass ling/roach. Pressure needs to be applied earlier.
THANK YOU, someone who gets what im talking about.
and masters itself doesnt mean anything, between low to mid masters and pro level are like 2 galaxies, so it doesnt mean just cause u win with it that it actually works in theory against a zerg that plays just right.
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On November 30 2011 05:05 Broesl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2011 04:54 scorch- wrote:On November 30 2011 02:46 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 30 2011 01:26 Broesl wrote:On November 30 2011 01:05 rEalGuapo wrote:On November 30 2011 01:01 Broesl wrote:On November 30 2011 00:55 rEalGuapo wrote: A Zerg that takes a super fast third dies to 7-8 Gate allin, Terrans actually do you a favour by letting you not take the third this early.
Thats just not true, every zerg is taking a fast third against ffe, if u would autolose to gatewaypushes, u really think they would do it ? They know that by the time these pushes come they already have their base up for a while, they have time to drone and then crank out units, exactly what were seeing the last months, cause a protoss that ffe´d cant pressure until like 8min. Ure just wrong with that statement. Well in that case I guess all those wins I had against greedy Zergs were imagined. Yes you can hold a third but only if Protoss makes a mistake (not cutting Probes early enough, letting Lings in early getting Warpin Pylons/Probes sniped / delayying +1 too fast that sort of stuff) I am 100% certain, both by experience and by what I have seen that a 6 minute three basing Zerg dies to Protoss or is severly crippled. And yes I can't pressure untill the 8th minute, but I will have +1 Zealots that shred through your Zerglings, +1 Stalkers with a huge amount of Forcefields to kill your Roaches and I will almost match you in Production, but my Units warp in clustered and yours run in from different Sides. edit: I talk about ZVP TVP TVZ because it is not matchup specific, which was the whole point of my post -.- so how do zergs win anything against protoss ? please for god sake watch some pro games, every good zerg is taking a REALLY fast third, at 5min, and every protoss at the pro level knows this and have complained about the econ they cant compete with, do u really think that if a simple 2base allin that doesnt require any skill would kill those zergs, protoss wouldnt have picked up on that. For ur own experience, what League are u in ? Who said it requires no skill? You need to scout the third base and the Drone saturation. You need to time everything just right. You need to sneak out Warpin Pylons. You need good Unit control if you get delayed, which you will. You need to be runby proof. You need to constantly watch your army and still use Chronoboost+build good timed pylons. You need to protect Pylons and still do damage to the econ. If Zerg reacts right he will instantly cut Drones and have a stronger army. Since you asked, I'm Master. I watch tons of pro games. Not every Zerg takes a 5min. third. I think your view of "well if I don't see it in every game in the GSL it can't be good." and "Zerg always takes super fast third and wins." is a little too black and white. And honestly I think the reason why people don't do it is because the game isn't figured out and people want to explore non-allin builds that can deal with everything, which is fine. Still I believe that taking a super fast third (as in take it before you have a lot of production and/or tech) should in theory lose to 2 Base play. What people make of it is a different story........ It's entirely possible that it works because you're playing against bad players. A 3-base, 4-hatch roach/ling zerg vs FFE should not have 4 gases, they should have 3 unless you've delayed your attack to take a 3rd and allowed zerg to tech. 3-base, 4-hatch vs FFE is standard because it is a safe way to deal with FFE and leaves zerg in a good spot if they scout and react correctly. Those warp-gate timing attacks waiting for 2-base saturation are too delayed and allow a zerg to saturate 3 bases and mass units off 4hatches. Protoss will just get out-supplied and out-reinforced by a zerg hitting injects and having 25+ larva per 45 secs and 3base mineral econ. This is why you see professional level protoss employing FFE into stargate, prism harass, +1 zealot pressures, etc. because a FFE -> 7- or 8-gate timing attack is easily defended by mass ling/roach. Pressure needs to be applied earlier. THANK YOU, someone who gets what im talking about. and masters itself doesnt mean anything, between low to mid masters and pro level are like 2 galaxies, so it doesnt mean just cause u win with it that it actually works in theory against a zerg that plays just right. am in heaven? lol. people who actually are basing strategies off of opponants playing at a high level? Thank god for you and the poster you qoated haha.
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