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Hi guys,
first help post for me, so please go easy on me
So, I played on Korhal yesterday for the first time and the Terran did the much loved 2rax. Only this time he brought a lot of scvs. And I had no idea how to stop this.
Replay: http://drop.sc/116152
I'm gonna walk you through my thoughts on the game and I hope you guys can tell me where I went the wrong way.
00:00 - yay ZvT. let's go for 15 hatch/16pool, I like macro games where I can throw a lot of shit at the terran (that's why I play zerg after all)
1:24 - I see his scouting scv coming. Looks kinda early to me. I pull a drone cause I wanna try to sneak it out. Got eng bay blocked quite a few times.
1:47 - ok so he stays in my base. Let's use the drone for scouting then.
2:39 - I count his scvs. I see 10 mining, 1 following my drone. 1 is building the rax and I saw a second one going to build a depo. 1 is out scouting. 14 scvs total. He can't have a second rax. In reality he sent the one for the depot out on the map and put down a proxy rax. conclusion My way of counting the drones only works when I see no gas?
2:52 - He starts orbital command. I think that's fine. in reality it's way to late. I should see him start orbital command right when the rax finishes. right?
3:28 - he attacks my gas steal with all those workers? lol? I FAIL to notice that the workers suddenly are gone. duh. In my defense, I was talking to a buddy of mine all the time.
4:00 - bunker incoming. pull workers. kill scv. and the other scv...s? the hell?
4:25 - oh shit marines. 2rax. quick. do something. but what. drones are dead. shit. ling speed? useless. roaches? not enough money. Well I have 2 queens coming. they can buffer damage. let's just build a spine.
4:42 - turns out scvs and marines kinda kill building spines. hmmmm. ok. abandon the natural. He won't have scvs at home anyway, I won't fall behind.
5:00 - frantic micro without clear goal. make stuff. When the queen dies I get the feeling that I'm gonna lose.
5:30 - ok let's cut off reinforcements and build a spine in the main. remake some drones. [i]I guess that was really really wrong here[!/i] also, where the f*** is my spine? It never started? huh?
7:00 - ok this shit is lame. bunker in main is up. I'm dead.apparently I'm only 2 supply behind.
So, my conclusions from this game are: actually think about what you are scouting, when the scvs come don't panic, if you can't hold the natural just make one or two spines in the main and build slow lings. As soon as the spines finish I will have quite a few lings and at least one queen. He won't be able to kill my spines cause I can defend them with lings. From there either go for baneling bust or retake the natural and macro up. His economy will be badly hurt.
I'm looking forward to get some advice from the wonderful TL-community. And please tell me if I made a mistake with the layout of this post. Yes I did read the guidelines ;-)
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when you get your nat blocked by an engi bay just drop your pool right away cause youll have excess mins. when u see one marine+one scv already pull 2-3 drones for marine and 2-3 drones for scv. if you see more scvs pull 2 drones per scv. dont be afraid to pull most of ur drones. as u get better you willl pull less. you wont fall behind if you just pull all ur drones and a move into the bunkers and marines. dont even need to kill scvs just need to kill bunkers and marines.
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and if u use the TL search engine you will find how to stop 2 rax its been done since beginning of time.
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use search bar pls before posting
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1- if you scout no gas from your opponent, don't bother stealing his gas. His build is either 2 rax or 1 rax expand, and stealing his gas doesn't hamper him at all in either case. Better to bring your drone home.
2- similarly, delay your own gas in this situation because the extra minerals can be used for more drones or more lings depending on whether he expands or is bunker rushing you.
3- it is better to pull more workers than fewer. 5 drones might not be enough for non-proxy bunker rush with 1-2 scvs, it is certainly not enough when he has 4-5 scvs and a proxy rax. If you pull many more workers, you can force his units back due to overwhelming numbers, and if you micro well you can rescue injured drones so you don't lose them. Meanwhile you are building lings, a queen and possibly a spine crawler.
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On February 21 2012 03:29 Rossbacher wrote:Hi guys, first help post for me, so please go easy on me So, I played on Korhal yesterday for the first time and the Terran did the much loved 2rax. Only this time he brought a lot of scvs. And I had no idea how to stop this. Replay: http://drop.sc/116152[...]
Hey Ross,
Diamond zerg here, I watched the replay. Here's the good news: you had three or four chances to hold it off. The bad news? You had no idea what to do at any point, and I'm not sure you've bothered to read any help threads on what to do to fend off proxy 2rax. I'm being harsh because it was really tough for me to watch this game, you seem like a good player who has never seen 2rax before.
Let's walk through the replay again.
little before 2:00: everything normal, his rax is at his ramp
2:40: you get your 15 hatch down exactly on time. his proxy rax starts.
2:55: you... gas steal? you... really hate banshees?
3:00: your pool starts right on time. your build is solid, why aren't you watching his base more? I would recommend not doing the gas steal so you can look around and realize that he should've started a supply depot, refinery, or OC (the latter as you have mentioned in your post). here's where you should be suspicious. suspicious for zerg means making sure you have as many larvae as possible ready to become lings when your pool finishes.
3:30: you miss the workers peeling off. that's fine, whatever. i don't think it's important, you should already be suspicious.
3:39: TWO scvs are in front of your natural, in vision of your overlord. clear sign of bunker shenanigans. definitely should realize you should hold larvae at this point, but... you're still droning.
3:47: that dynamic duo of scvs is back. I would pull drones at this point and start hunting for marines marching across the map, but this is personal preference.
3:50: you pull five drones once the bunker is down. good. you target the scv, also good. bunker canceled, and you go to mine at the natural.
4:14: new bunker goes down, you pull the five drones again. but now, there's a marine and a lot of scvs and you do THE WORST POSSIBLE THING and a-move into the scvs. always swing around the scvs and go for the marines. please. the scvs are there to block, don't let them block you from killing marines. even just continuing to mine would have been better.
4:27: three more drones descend into the fray, but now the three remaining drones from the first batch have run away? and these three just run right past everything. hmm.
4:40: spine doesn't get canceled. big problem, that's a drone (fighting unit in this scenario) and 100 minerals, for future lings.
4:50: four lings pop from natural, you aren't ready for them so they run around for a bit. they end up killing one marine, could be worse. but you should be ready for them to finish, immediately send them at the nearest marine, and use the opportunity to run in with drones as well. you need to know when things are going to pop so that you can overwhelm with drones. pull another four or five drones. your goal is to keep the marine count low--without marines, this is just an scv rush.
4:55: same deal with your queen. this was your second chance to surprise and overwhelm him. Then two more lings pop and go for scvs. Hold on to your lings! He's in a bunker at this point, so no reason to pursue into bunker fire.
5:27: drones get made. ugh. you know 2rax is about crippling you now, right? and you have larvae sitting around dreaming of becoming lings.
5:30: MORE DRONES?! wow.
6:00" you have 150 minerals and lots of larvae. where are the lings??
6:27: he's at the ramp, ready to come up. you need to pull drones so that together with the lings you SHOULD have, you can ambush the marines without taking as much fire running in.
6:32: he's up the ramp, you can flank him here! lings on one side, drones on another, and a queen for support! instead you run around.
6:40: you attack-move into scvs. you clearly have no idea how to fight against this.
6:47: he runs back, you go back to mining. except you don't protect your building spine...
6:57: so he kills it for free before you can really react. and you DON'T CANCEL?!
7:00ish: you try to flank, the lings do it right, the drones get caught on the scv. then you run away after you get cozy next to the marines?
7:12: you leave. you have 14 (13 mining) drones to his 9 (8 mining) scvs, your random two lings are killing his proxy, and you still have a queen for injects. you still had a fighting chance.
Ok, so here are my thoughts:
- The huge GIANT issue with your anti-2rax play: You need to learn how to engage a marine-scv ball. This guy didn't even make a ball, he just had scvs in front, and you still a-moved in and lost everything. the marines are the dps, the scvs are the meatshield. pull enough to kill the marines, flank him, and if your micro is up to the task, be ready to scoot as he scoots. you always just a-move and it gets you killed. At several points, proper tactics would have put you right back in the game.
- Pool larvae and get suspicious. You have two big red flags crop up that should alert you to the 2rax. You should have 6 lings immediately upon completion of the pool, as those lings plus a few drones will allow you to overwhelm him early, before bunkers have any chance of getting up.
- be ready for your new units popping out. Each new unit that spawns is an opportunity to flank, especially since he sits right next to the eggs at the natural. 2raxing terrans know what they can and can't engage, and each new batch of units is a sudden swing towards "can't engage". Which is exactly when you want to fight him.
Going to add to this post once I locate the two recent replays I have of holding off 2rax (or similar) bunker pressure. I think I have two, anyway.
EDIT: Here's the two. Mostly relevant as demonstrations of how to engage, since I 9 drone scout and see two raxes in both games and go 14/14 to punish it. But the first engagement is not going to be much different, you just want one or two more drones (i.e. 4 or 5 drones to my 3) to come with the six lings, swing around the scvs, and munch on the marines.
vs 2rax on shakuras, close by air. He proxies badly so I scout it without trying. I engage at the top of the natural ramp and quickly slice through his marines, even after carelessly losing some lings prior to that. I push and push with pure lings, then catch him off guard when speed kicks in. He eventually transitions into 5rax, which I hold by trading ling for marine. He takes his natural. I then proceed to try and lose the game in a spectacular fashion. You can probably ignore everything past the first engagement or three. http://drop.sc/116262
vs 2rax on metalopolis, cross spawn. He seems very comfortable with 2rax, letting me scout it and doing it in spite of the possibility of cross positions. I mess up a few times, but the first true engagement at the bottom of the ramp goes terribly for him. I use and abuse the ramp time and time again to surprise him, keeping the marine count low and keeping marines off the high ground. scvs can do whatever they want, I don't care, as they aren't mining, and mining is the deadliest thing a worker can do. eventually I push him back by hitting injects and pumping lings, and he, living up to his name (doublebacon), doubles his rax count to 4 and pushes me again. Notice how I wait to engage, and bring my queens down, too. I wait until all his marines are locked onto the moving spines, then push in with lings. He retreats out, so I block him in, this time sending in the queens to tank (with tranfuse), and the drones from the natural to ensure a full surround. After that it's mostly over, I get banelings to deny his natural but luckily catch him unaware for a faster win. http://drop.sc/116261
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Hey 6xFPCs
thanks a TON for your feedback. You are absolutly right with pretty much anything you say. You're only wrong when you're saying that I didn't read any 'how to stop 2rax' posts. The big problem is that whenever I'm ingame, my brain just locks up. It's incredibly frustrating. I die so many times because I mindlessly a-move all my units into siegetanks.... I feel like my horrible unit control is what kept me from advancing to diamond thus far. What I'm really thankful for is that you point out the moments where I can make mental memos to do very specific things with units/my money. I think I really need a terran practice partner to improve this kind of stuff efficiently though, ladder is just too random. Thx a ton for the replays, too! <3
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You basically scouted his SCV pull with your drone, so you should have known a 2 rax was almost certainly coming for you right then. What you want to do is pull 3-7 drones to delay the bunker, depending on how many scvs he has pulled. You should skip gas completely and only get one queen at the natural, then build two spines and 4-6 lings as soon as the pool finishes. Micro as well as possible to make sure the spines complete, cancel one if necessary and rebuild it, but this micro dance will make sure a spine finishes or he loses a significant portion of his units without killing much. If a bunker did finish you need to position the spines to attack the bunker without getting shot back (they outrange marines in bunkers), then send your lings out to cut off reinforcements. Don't inject with the queen, simply save up for a transfuse if bunkers are down.
Alternatively, you can cut off reinforcements from the start with some drones, then surround him when your lings pop, but I don't have much experience with that and I've only seen DRG do it.
One important thing to note is that your opponent had 6 scvs and a marine for quite a while just trying to set up a bunker, so if you pulled 7+ drones you could have easily denied a bunker and possible killed the marine and some scvs. With good drone micro you can do this without losing more than a few drones, which puts you far ahead of your opponent.
Despite what some people will tell you, you should not go 14gas/14pool in response to a 2 rax, even if you manage to scout it that early. If they respond properly or are not 2 raxing you will have a lot of trouble. Even with 14/14 you need to pull drones to stop bunkers, because you won't have lings out soon enough. The gas doesn't really help anyway as speed doesn't finish. The hatch first helps you deal with a 2 rax even if they get bunkers up, as your creep allows spines to be built and makes queens and lings better for defense.
Here is a recent replay of a defense I did that would have been more than adequate to beat the player you played against as well. The defense method I described above may be necessary if you play against proxy 11/11 from a player who as great micro and if you did not scout it quickly, but against a more simple (and frankly, poorly executed) 2 rax like what you faced you can defend a lot easier. http://drop.sc/116282
Another thing you need to look out for is bunker placements that seal in marines behind bunkers so you can't attack them. The easiest way to deal with that is to block that spot for as long as possible (delay it) with drones, but it's quite likely they'll still eventually get a bunker placed if they pulled enough scvs and especially if they did proxy 11/11. The defense I described above is particularly essential to dealing with this case. Here's a replay from a game I played as terran doing such a bunker placement: http://drop.sc/116293 Another replay of this shows why it is important to do the things I said, it is not simply enough to pull drones and make zerglings. http://drop.sc/116294
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if he pulls 6 scvs you can literally pull all of your drones/lings and just surround? and youre still ahead no matter what unless he has MKP micro
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A lot of good advice has already been stated. I just wanted to stress don't undereact. Unfortunately, if that bunker goes up and kills your hatch putting you in a bad contain its near impossible to comeback. I'm not saying pull every drone but pull 1 or 2 more than you think is necessary. Also shift right click the scv while its building the bunker. Your drones will follow him.
In this particular situation 6xfpcs analysis is excellent. Can't add much more!
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On February 21 2012 05:32 oOOoOphidian wrote:You basically scouted his SCV pull with your drone, so you should have known a 2 rax was almost certainly coming for you right then. What you want to do is pull 3-7 drones to delay the bunker, depending on how many scvs he has pulled. You should skip gas completely and only get one queen at the natural, then build two spines and 4-6 lings as soon as the pool finishes. Micro as well as possible to make sure the spines complete, cancel one if necessary and rebuild it, but this micro dance will make sure a spine finishes or he loses a significant portion of his units without killing much. If a bunker did finish you need to position the spines to attack the bunker without getting shot back (they outrange marines in bunkers), then send your lings out to cut off reinforcements. Don't inject with the queen, simply save up for a transfuse if bunkers are down. Alternatively, you can cut off reinforcements from the start with some drones, then surround him when your lings pop, but I don't have much experience with that and I've only seen DRG do it. One important thing to note is that your opponent had 6 scvs and a marine for quite a while just trying to set up a bunker, so if you pulled 7+ drones you could have easily denied a bunker and possible killed the marine and some scvs. With good drone micro you can do this without losing more than a few drones, which puts you far ahead of your opponent. Despite what some people will tell you, you should not go 14gas/14pool in response to a 2 rax, even if you manage to scout it that early. If they respond properly or are not 2 raxing you will have a lot of trouble. Even with 14/14 you need to pull drones to stop bunkers, because you won't have lings out soon enough. The gas doesn't really help anyway as speed doesn't finish. The hatch first helps you deal with a 2 rax even if they get bunkers up, as your creep allows spines to be built and makes queens and lings better for defense. Here is a recent replay of a defense I did that would have been more than adequate to beat the player you played against as well. The defense method I described above may be necessary if you play against proxy 11/11 from a player who as great micro and if you did not scout it quickly, but against a more simple (and frankly, poorly executed) 2 rax like what you faced you can defend a lot easier. http://drop.sc/116282Another thing you need to look out for is bunker placements that seal in marines behind bunkers so you can't attack them. The easiest way to deal with that is to block that spot for as long as possible (delay it) with drones, but it's quite likely they'll still eventually get a bunker placed if they pulled enough scvs and especially if they did proxy 11/11. The defense I described above is particularly essential to dealing with this case. Here's a replay from a game I played as terran doing such a bunker placement: http://drop.sc/116293Another replay of this shows why it is important to do the things I said, it is not simply enough to pull drones and make zerglings. http://drop.sc/116294
Ophidian's advice definitely overrides mine, though I'd like to add that I go 14p/14g on scouting the 2rax because I'm not confident enough to micro 15h/16p against 2rax, in spite of all the criticism I'm giving. A good player will not die to 2rax; I, on the other hand, have managed to on a few occasions. You can probably tell why from the replays: I tend to randomly lose lings by putting them on move command. I am not recommending you do 14p/14g against a Terran, I just took the most recent two replays I had that showed proper engagement. Like I said, I think that primary issue is the way you engaged.
I'd also like to mention that DRG will, in every game I've seen him do vs 2rax, put down the spine behind his natural hatch, then move it up later when finished. Easier to protect, harder to scout. (You did this with your first spine, but didn't protect it.) Just an FYI.
On February 21 2012 05:28 Rossbacher wrote: The big problem is that whenever I'm ingame, my brain just locks up. It's incredibly frustrating. I die so many times because I mindlessly a-move all my units into siegetanks.... I feel like my horrible unit control is what kept me from advancing to diamond thus far.
The way I trained myself to not panic was just to get a practice partner and practice the same thing 10 times straight; eventually it just feels mundane to sit through another 2rax, or magic box another group of thors, or burrow some baneling mines as you retreat.
In terms of unit control, I watched some of july's games to see what ridiculous micro looks like (though he hasn't played much SC2). I'd look at Stephano's ling usage, and Sen's, and Sheth's. Learn how to make your attacks look like their attacks, rewatch the same attack endlessly until you know why this group comes in from this side, where the tanks fire, what the upgrade situation is, etc. There's always a lot beneath the surface, and if you feel like you attack mindlessly, then you definitely want to start thinking about things. Do the tanks have +1 weapons, do my lings have +1 carapace? Those make the difference between one ling absorbing two tank shots vs only one. Eventually, you'll have trained yourself to think like that when you play, not just when you watch games.
Good luck.
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1- if you scout no gas from your opponent, don't bother stealing his gas. His build is either 2 rax or 1 rax expand, and stealing his gas doesn't hamper him at all in either case. Better to bring your drone home.
In my opinion, the most important part of a gas steal is that it gives you information about where his marines are.
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Guys thank you so much for your advice. Tbh, I was a bit afraid of the trolls when I made this post. And the first few responses really seemed to give me right. But then... man teamliquid really is awesome Unfortunatly I have to work a lot so I can only really play on weekends, but now I can't wait for friday evening to come. Thanks a million for all the advice <3 I feel like with good practice I might be able to finally get to diamond this season. Now I'm off to sue some fools ;-)
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