[D] PvZ 3 gate expand still valid?
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HKnNor
Norway8 Posts
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
edit: 3 gate sentry expo is somewhat weak against roach ling pressure. Also if you lose your sentries in the early game, you're pretty much done. It's also really passive opener which delays expo without having any major advantages over ffe. Both are passive but ffe gets much better econ. Non-sentry 3 gate expo delays expansion so much that you need to do some damage which might be hard vs lings queens spines. | ||
HKnNor
Norway8 Posts
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ntvarify
United States331 Posts
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FnaticPink
Denmark324 Posts
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
and if that 3 gate sentry pressure dies somewhere out in the map youve pretty much lost the game. not to mention it delays your tech and potentially your scouting (unless you use hallucination) | ||
Romano
Germany60 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On May 29 2012 01:30 AGIANTSMURF wrote: 3 gate expand died out as a viable build at high level's because zerg learned that they can easily crush any 3 gate sentry pressure while still maintaining a huge eco lead. and if that 3 gate sentry pressure dies somewhere out in the map youve pretty much lost the game. not to mention it delays your tech and potentially your scouting (unless you use hallucination) Well, it doesn't delay your tech as you are obviously getting a much earlier gate/core - another problem beside the things already mentioned is that Blizz took away the 4 gate. Now with the queen change it's the icing on the cake. Meaning, before all the 4 gate changes zerg had to account for the possibility of a 4 gate and play much more defensively, getting units out much earlier and not take an early 3rd. The 3 gate expo worked economicly because zerg had to play more conservatively. Nowadays if zergs spot a 3 gate expo they KNOW it's a 3 gate expo and not a 4 gate. And then you die. | ||
-Kira
352 Posts
1 gate expand isn't safe and 3 gate is unnecessary from my experience. You need to refine your build well and learn all the ins and outs of it. I find it more comfortable than FFE because i can control the game or react to my enemy. You have super fast scouting (chrono on warpgate and then on hallucination straight away) and if you want to 2 base all in 200/200 energy sentries are pretty good... On May 29 2012 01:38 sleepingdog wrote: Well, it doesn't delay your tech as you are obviously getting a much earlier gate/core - another problem beside the things already mentioned is that Blizz took away the 4 gate. Now with the queen change it's the icing on the cake. Meaning, before all the 4 gate changes zerg had to account for the possibility of a 4 gate and play much more defensively, getting units out much earlier and not take an early 3rd. The 3 gate expo worked economicly because zerg had to play more conservatively. Nowadays if zergs spot a 3 gate expo they KNOW it's a 3 gate expo and not a 4 gate. And then you die. I keep probe near 3rd right before i put down nexus, if he expands i add gates (up to total of 5) and win. Even if zerg spots the gates and no exp right away and makes units non stop, he dies (unless he was taking gas, but gasless 3rd is just game over). At least, that's what happens in my games | ||
-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On May 29 2012 01:43 -MoOsE- wrote: does anyone know where any of nony's pvz replays are? His replays haven't been posted in a while, but you can check out the vods from his stream. | ||
Ncage
United States91 Posts
On May 29 2012 01:38 sleepingdog wrote: Well, it doesn't delay your tech as you are obviously getting a much earlier gate/core - another problem beside the things already mentioned is that Blizz took away the 4 gate. Now with the queen change it's the icing on the cake. Meaning, before all the 4 gate changes zerg had to account for the possibility of a 4 gate and play much more defensively, getting units out much earlier and not take an early 3rd. The 3 gate expo worked economicly because zerg had to play more conservatively. Nowadays if zergs spot a 3 gate expo they KNOW it's a 3 gate expo and not a 4 gate. And then you die. I don't really know how to respond to "Blizz took away the 4gate" I definitely know what you mean but it's still possible to 4gate zergs but that is mostly due to the meta-game. We've seen it done on the professional level rarely such as MC vs Zerg (I wanna say DRG?) on Dual Sight. The real reason it works is because Zerg is unable to scout the build quick enough and delay their gas for the current meta-game. Even a 'quick' gas these days starts at 5 mins which means that you will have around 2 minutes to pressure without ling speed. Its a pretty bad build IMO but it's not dead. To answer the OP: 3-gate expo is dead. The build has gotten progressively worse and the reality is you sacrifice a huge amount of economy for a poke with 6 sentries at 6min. Other than that the build doesn't give you any strong timings, everything hits too late and you will need to tech up to combat a heavy roach-ling army in the mid game. To put it short, you'll get outmacro'd | ||
-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/liquidtyler/b/319317502 its the first game | ||
HKnNor
Norway8 Posts
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-Kira
352 Posts
On May 29 2012 02:02 HKnNor wrote: Thanks for great answers. I think im going to stop using 3 gate expand and go over to FFE. Conformist ;P | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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brOwNrA
2 Posts
Overall though, you pretty much have to 2 gate expo (which basically dies to an all-in speedling) or 3 gate expo (bad economically), or three gate pressure (kinda like a eco 4 gate). But either way, these builds all have a exploitable weakness whereas ffe doesnt really. | ||
Zetter
Germany629 Posts
I switched from FFE as a standard opener btw, because I really dislike how passive you have to be in the early game with a FFE. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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Raggamuffinoo
United Kingdom117 Posts
The build I use is + Show Spoiler + Standard One Gas Opening Gateway - gas - Cybernetics Core zealot -> attack **4chrono on warpgate stalker - attack sentry - at ramp/choke 2 gateways (can be used to wall off your main ramp - send probe to enemy base sentry - at ramp/choke nexus proxy pylon (if you want to commit) The build gives great flexibility and scouting. You can choose how many gates to utilize based on what you see your opponent doing. No zerg is opening gas in the current game trend, this makes gateway expands both safer and more cost efficient in early game engagements. Some people argue that, because gateway expands have less economy than forge expands, forge expands are better. This is true but the faster two base economy only has its peak at about 8 minutes, after which zerg is creeping (pun intended) more and more ahead. Keeping the zerg on two bases for longer, you can establish an army before zerg has stopped droning, and, more easily take a third while maintaining a map presence. | ||
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