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Russian Federation19 Posts
Thanks for detailed analysis and explanation of ZvP metagame, despite the fact that I am terran, it was informative read.
And looks like i have found replays of what you were talking about: It'S DIMAGA vs Fraer from some kind of showmatch two weeks ago. http://drop.sC/234684 - Here DIMAGA cuts drones on ~40-43, builds a bunch of lings and defends against blink-stalkers.
http://drop.sC/234683 - same stuff - DIMAGA successfully fend off all stargate/gateway units attacks by building drones and units simultaneously.
And Here is just EXACTLY What your post was about: http://drop.sC/234682 - SMall sentry/stalker army was eaten aLive by zerglings at the moment they left their base. (Actually it was a pretty long game after that, but it is a good example I think)
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I think this may have potential for a couple of reasons.
As someone said before, protoss have no problem holding against stephano max styles these days. A very early protoss third with cannons/wall-off is nearly impossible to break if they mass sentries.
However, the strength of the protoss third relies in the fast that their defenses get up just before a 3 base zerg player could reasonably get roaches and speedlings across the map in any sort of dangerous number.
A zerg that either stays on 2 bases and produces units, or (this would be my favored option) cuts drones much earlier than normal on 3 hatch to get units out, will will have units across the map far earlier than a 3 hatch, 60+drone zerg would.
So in essence, what we are talking about is (very broad strokes here...):
60 drone 12 min max vs. ~40 drone, mass units out by 8 minutes.
The 60 drone build will of course max out far earlier. However, the 40 drone build has 3 advantages, in my eyes
1#: It will have units out in large enough numbers to deny a fast toss third off of few units (like...pre 9 min thirds). Fast third toss builds hold stephano max builds because they are designed to hold at a specific timing after ~10 minutes if you show up with an actual army, albeit far smaller, 2 minutes earlier, there is no way a protoss fast third can hold.
2#: I'm not sure about this one, but i feel you will have so many speedlings out that a player going for an all-in will not be able to move out of his base at the expected time, even to excecute an all-in. He will have to be very meticulous about FFing his way out of his own base without dying, if you camp the front. You could possibly drone at this time, and have the requisite 60 drone count ready for when they finally do break out.
3#: You are potentially saving a large quantity of gas. You are producing likely a pure speedling to deny a third or delay a push. I think it is arguable either way by better players what the overally effect of cutting economy will have on your build, but one thing is certain...if you create a pure ling army, even at an earlier time, you will have more gas leftover for higher tech units when you arent using it up on roaches.
EDIT: people have mentioned the "protoss can just not attack" argument. This is a valid point....but only when the zerg is truly on only 2 bases. I think it would be foolish to actually not morph the third hatchery. You can take advantage of the passive protoss 2 base play in response to your early units by droning up you third, and then having the situation be
3 hatch zerg WITH units vs 2 base protoss. REMEMBER, the normal situation when zerg hits 60 drones would be zerg 3 hatch NO units vs. toss 2 base
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On August 06 2012 15:27 PlacidPanda wrote: In my opinion to stop the 4 immortal 1/1 sentry attack you need 3 base economy. Its sort of that paradox you have in TvP where to actually defend a 1/1/1 the protoss has to expand early to get an economic edge instead of building up an army on 1 base. Therefore 3 base is needed in ZvP much like 2 base is needed in PvT. However 2 base roach ling, banelings busts, and nydus allins are incredibly powerful against FFE players going for gateway and robo aggression and are incredibly underexplored.
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that. I happened upon this by chance actually....I mis-scouted and thought toss was going for a very early gateway all-in, but....
Long story short, I cut drones early and ended up with a LOT of speedlings and a few roaches. It was one of the easiest times i have had defending the sentry/immortal all in, because as the original poster said, you can engage before they really have a nasty count of stalkers with it, meaning you can threaten with your speedlings. It's sort of like forcing sieges on a tank/marine push. They HAVE to use FFs right outside their own natural against your speedlings, or risk losing all their sentries.
I think if you get those early lings, you delay the push so much and toss has so many few FFs, that you win with your initial army when they get to your base, rather than relying on reinforcing into a poor position. Thjis of course means that you can set up a better engagement from the start, which is not always possible when you are producing panic units in mass off of 60-70 drones.
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On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 2#: I'm not sure about this one, but i feel you will have so many speedlings out that a player going for an all-in will not be able to move out of his base at the expected time, even to excecute an all-in. He will have to be very meticulous about FFing his way out of his own base without dying, if you camp the front. You could possibly drone at this time, and have the requisite 60 drone count ready for when they finally do break out.
The protoss will have a better economy for a while then though. He doesn't need to move out. Who cares if he can't move out at 9:30 with 2 immortals and 6 sentries if you have delayed roughly 20 drones for a good minute or so ( Which is about 800 minerals per minute you are delaying those drones, just let that sink in ). His army and economy grows while your army either grows and stunts your economy or it stays the same. He could care less if he can't hit his timing at 9:30, if he can hit a new timing with 5 immortals and a huge gateway army that you won't be able to stop because you were delayed on that much income.
On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 3#: You are potentially saving a large quantity of gas. You are producing likely a pure speedling to deny a third or delay a push. I think it is arguable either way by better players what the overally effect of cutting economy will have on your build, but one thing is certain...if you create a pure ling army, even at an earlier time, you will have more gas leftover for higher tech units when you arent using it up on roaches.
A zerg won't be able to spend that gas unless he can get real damage done with pure speedling or delay him immensely. Trust me, as a guy that tends to save up a ton of gas in the midgame and delay a ton to suddenly surprise the toss with an enormous Mutalisk cloud, you won't be able to do that with 40 drones effectively without the Protoss screwing up majorly.
EDIT: people have mentioned the "protoss can just not attack" argument. This is a valid point....but only when the zerg is truly on only 2 bases. I think it would be foolish to actually not morph the third hatchery. You can take advantage of the passive protoss 2 base play in response to your early units by droning up you third, and then having the situation be
On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 3 hatch zerg WITH units vs 2 base protoss. REMEMBER, the normal situation when zerg hits 60 drones would be zerg 3 hatch NO units vs. toss 2 base
REMEMBER that while you are 3 hatch zerg, you are two base economy. You put the race with an nigh-unbreakable wall at that timeframe against the race which can't wall off against warp prism harass or counter attacks with a few units and you will notice a pattern. It involves a lot of lasers and blood, and probably zerg tears. I've been there, done that. Trust me.
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This depends but i believe its better to make 40-ish lings in advance and try to crush his force (whether its moving out for allin or taking expansion way to early(around 9+min)). Things to note is you need earlier gas and only 1gas and you can make only lings as the units in advance. The earlier gas should be around 4:30 so you can have speed soon enough to catch his probe/pylon pre-warp zealots wich is crucial with only lings. Also it gives you slight(4drone) mineral boost wich you will need to replenish your drone count afterwards. There are 2 problems however as your lair is delayed and your army is in position to intercept his army/expo following can happen. 1) DT play this can be dangerous if you dont scout it properly but ur lair is delayed so it can get tricky 2) Prism play this is even harder to scout and can be even more deadly because proper response for this are units in ur base not around his third.
Edit: Im talking about standart 3hatch opening with stlightly earlier gas
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I like the idea of making new options to zerg in response to FFE. staying on 2 base might as well be able to deal with the increasingly popular 7 minute 3rd base from toss. however, the reason why these "thin" defenses are so popular, is because if you defend with them properly, you pretty much outright win. As OP states, the different all ins require different responses, mainly on drone cutting. That said, a sentry immortal all in is demolished by baneling drops - speedling - roach - +1 melee. (The faster versions of this all in comes right before drops are finished, but you can take another 3rd elsewhere, sacrafice ur 3rd. If they come straight to your natural, it might become a little wacky and close on timings, but a spine or two should buy enough time.) Even if you lose a base, if you kill this army, protoss is dead. If you lose this army by trading with the zergs army, you still outright lose because it is virtually impossible to take a 3rd base, a push while taking a 3rd base is easier to defend with the more traditional roach ling.
The point i'm making is - it might not be wise to look on 2 base zerg play, as i'm quite sure protoss won't even bother making these all ins, unless you autopilot immortal-sentry from gold to masters.. When it's possible to defend them, if you respond correctly (one way or another - with guessing or scouting). 2base 3 hatch won't put you ahead on drones (as protoss is normally taking the lead up to 36-ish probes.) Perhaps, the whole concept you're making is a little wrong. Protoss don't HAVE to make a 2base all in, it's not like it is decided before the game with no chance of changing it during it. But i really like the idea of thinking of something entirely different. Needs something different though.
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[B] Even if you lose a base, if you kill this army, protoss is dead
Well, I think right there is the entire rationalle for making earlier units. A zerg can actually do just fine on 2 bases for a while if the protoss is still on 2 bases, and you have an army sufficient to deny their third. If you think about it, the situation we are talking about here is almost IDENTICAL to the situation where a protoss sentry/immortal comes in, kills your third and a few drones, but loses their entire army. it is 2 base vs two base, but zerg has a decent amount of units, toss does not have an army capable of pushing out.
What does this mean? Well, in the short term, zerg can expand, toss cannot. Someone mentioned that if you make earlier units, protoss will be ahead of you in econ. I'm not sure that is necessarily true. I think it is more likely you would end up pretty darn comparable actually. Now, of course the goal is to be ahead. However...i still think you are in a better situation. If you give up your econ advantage early to get units and deny a third, you may now pull ahead in econ by saturating your third with absolute safety.
In all honesty...I feel this strategy would be quite sound against gateway and immortal plays. I think it might have problems against colossi or stargate openers..because you might not be able to deny the third effectively against the stargate, and a colossi push could just win outright on 2 base....but again, I'm not sure.
EDIT: someone mentioned that if you get early speedlings, a protoss could just delay their push, and crush you with a couple extra immortals and a superior economy. I disagree with this.
Again, I am not claiming to KNOW that early units is good, but in this specific situation, protoss going sentry/immortal all-in, if zerg makes 30-40 zerglings (or whatever number is capable of both shutting down a toss fast third AND containing a sentry/immortal all-in), i think the default for zerg after they get the lings out is to drone up the third. That should be the entire point of the early speedlings, that making the early zerglings will actually create a net economical gain for the zerg in the end, that they are guaranteed of A) keeping the protoss on 2 base and B) getting to 70 drones safely.
Protoss can of course push out with a stronger overall force later. However, they will be facing a larger force from the zerg. First off, they ALREADY have units out on the map the second protoss leaves their base. Also, I feel that zerg will still have a 60-70 drone economy in this situation, and will already be back to unit production when protoss leaves their base with 5+ immortals and a decent stalker count.
I guess the real question here is how much time does 40 speedlings buy you?
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I'm sorry, but I have a big concern: looking at the beggining of your post (i.e. Where you explain the problem and why some solution won't be good), it appears clearly that what you're looking for is a new state of the metagame, and not an individual solution, which, by making your playstyle uncommon on the ladder, would give you personnaly a higher winrate. That being said, it is very clear that cutting drones earlier or not double expanding early on has no chances at all to become part of the metagame, because if the protoss knows it (which is the base of the concept of "metagame"), the response is as simple as not being aggressive on two bases.
Thank you and sorry for bad English
Nb: Nice write up concerning the actual state of the MU though
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On August 07 2012 01:09 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 2#: I'm not sure about this one, but i feel you will have so many speedlings out that a player going for an all-in will not be able to move out of his base at the expected time, even to excecute an all-in. He will have to be very meticulous about FFing his way out of his own base without dying, if you camp the front. You could possibly drone at this time, and have the requisite 60 drone count ready for when they finally do break out.
The protoss will have a better economy for a while then though. He doesn't need to move out. Who cares if he can't move out at 9:30 with 2 immortals and 6 sentries if you have delayed roughly 20 drones for a good minute or so ( Which is about 800 minerals per minute you are delaying those drones, just let that sink in ). His army and economy grows while your army either grows and stunts your economy or it stays the same. He could care less if he can't hit his timing at 9:30, if he can hit a new timing with 5 immortals and a huge gateway army that you won't be able to stop because you were delayed on that much income. Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 3#: You are potentially saving a large quantity of gas. You are producing likely a pure speedling to deny a third or delay a push. I think it is arguable either way by better players what the overally effect of cutting economy will have on your build, but one thing is certain...if you create a pure ling army, even at an earlier time, you will have more gas leftover for higher tech units when you arent using it up on roaches.
A zerg won't be able to spend that gas unless he can get real damage done with pure speedling or delay him immensely. Trust me, as a guy that tends to save up a ton of gas in the midgame and delay a ton to suddenly surprise the toss with an enormous Mutalisk cloud, you won't be able to do that with 40 drones effectively without the Protoss screwing up majorly. EDIT: people have mentioned the "protoss can just not attack" argument. This is a valid point....but only when the zerg is truly on only 2 bases. I think it would be foolish to actually not morph the third hatchery. You can take advantage of the passive protoss 2 base play in response to your early units by droning up you third, and then having the situation be Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 00:33 abefroman wrote: 3 hatch zerg WITH units vs 2 base protoss. REMEMBER, the normal situation when zerg hits 60 drones would be zerg 3 hatch NO units vs. toss 2 base REMEMBER that while you are 3 hatch zerg, you are two base economy. You put the race with an nigh-unbreakable wall at that timeframe against the race which can't wall off against warp prism harass or counter attacks with a few units and you will notice a pattern. It involves a lot of lasers and blood, and probably zerg tears. I've been there, done that. Trust me.
Exactly, you need this 3 base economy to withstand protoss agression. You are already putting down a macro hatch, do there is no reason to put that their hatchery in your base rather than at the third.
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Ok, just for yucks, I decided to play a little test game vs the comp. Long story short, I got first gas at 4:30 for speed, cut drones at 30 to get 36 lings out total. I then continued (more or less....delayed gas some because I already had speed, etc) droning and normal stephano style roach build. I maxed out at 12:50 with +1, 4 hatches/queens, ling and roach speed.
Realize that my macro is not exactly perfect, and that I normally would max out about 1 minute earlier doing a similar build without the lings.
Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/234748
So the question is, i suppose, are the lings worth 1 minute of delayed economy?
I sort of feel like it is. That number of early lings should shut down any kind of straight gateway all-in, i feel like you would have sufficient units out when protoss is actually able to leave his base with a sentry immortal push, and there is no way in hell he is getting a third up early. Best of all....it looks identical to a normal 3 hatch play up until the point that lings come out/speed finishes around 7:30 i believe. Though if toss is scouting well...they might notice the lack of saturation at the third, but i dont believe drones actually get there much earlier than 7:30, do they?
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I feel like one of the things that makes it hard for me to defend is on a lot of the maps I can't defend my third and natural with one set of spines, so I never know how many I should build and where they should be. Like, on daybreak you obviously can't, on shakuras you can push creep forward and can cover the front of both, and on condemned ridge it kind of feels a little too easy. When I go "okay i'll use units to defend more instead of spines" i die because i'm bad at the game
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2012 01:37 abefroman wrote:Well, I think right there is the entire rationalle for making earlier units. A zerg can actually do just fine on 2 bases for a while if the protoss is still on 2 bases, and you have an army sufficient to deny their third. If you think about it, the situation we are talking about here is almost IDENTICAL to the situation where a protoss sentry/immortal comes in, kills your third and a few drones, but loses their entire army. it is 2 base vs two base, but zerg has a decent amount of units, toss does not have an army capable of pushing out. What does this mean? Well, in the short term, zerg can expand, toss cannot. Someone mentioned that if you make earlier units, protoss will be ahead of you in econ. I'm not sure that is necessarily true. I think it is more likely you would end up pretty darn comparable actually. Now, of course the goal is to be ahead. However...i still think you are in a better situation. If you give up your econ advantage early to get units and deny a third, you may now pull ahead in econ by saturating your third with absolute safety. In all honesty...I feel this strategy would be quite sound against gateway and immortal plays. I think it might have problems against colossi or stargate openers..because you might not be able to deny the third effectively against the stargate, and a colossi push could just win outright on 2 base....but again, I'm not sure. EDIT: someone mentioned that if you get early speedlings, a protoss could just delay their push, and crush you with a couple extra immortals and a superior economy. I disagree with this. Again, I am not claiming to KNOW that early units is good, but in this specific situation, protoss going sentry/immortal all-in, if zerg makes 30-40 zerglings (or whatever number is capable of both shutting down a toss fast third AND containing a sentry/immortal all-in), i think the default for zerg after they get the lings out is to drone up the third. That should be the entire point of the early speedlings, that making the early zerglings will actually create a net economical gain for the zerg in the end, that they are guaranteed of A) keeping the protoss on 2 base and B) getting to 70 drones safely. Protoss can of course push out with a stronger overall force later. However, they will be facing a larger force from the zerg. First off, they ALREADY have units out on the map the second protoss leaves their base. Also, I feel that zerg will still have a 60-70 drone economy in this situation, and will already be back to unit production when protoss leaves their base with 5+ immortals and a decent stalker count. I guess the real question here is how much time does 40 speedlings buy you?
yeah, i see the comparison, but such a situation would not exist if protoss responds to your 2base properly. Therefore, as someone said above, this is not really a viable option. I also don't think that 2base zerg would deal with a decently timed 3rd with good defense. Also, zerg can't even tech to hive and he kinda needs to keep on the army race to take a 3rd possibly later than the opponent.
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On August 07 2012 02:25 abefroman wrote:Ok, just for yucks, I decided to play a little test game vs the comp. Long story short, I got first gas at 4:30 for speed, cut drones at 30 to get 36 lings out total. I then continued (more or less....delayed gas some because I already had speed, etc) droning and normal stephano style roach build. I maxed out at 12:50 with +1, 4 hatches/queens, ling and roach speed. Realize that my macro is not exactly perfect, and that I normally would max out about 1 minute earlier doing a similar build without the lings. Here is the replay: http://drop.sc/234748So the question is, i suppose, are the lings worth 1 minute of delayed economy? I sort of feel like it is. That number of early lings should shut down any kind of straight gateway all-in, i feel like you would have sufficient units out when protoss is actually able to leave his base with a sentry immortal push, and there is no way in hell he is getting a third up early. Best of all....it looks identical to a normal 3 hatch play up until the point that lings come out/speed finishes around 7:30 i believe. Though if toss is scouting well...they might notice the lack of saturation at the third, but i dont believe drones actually get there much earlier than 7:30, do they?
Thank you for the useful test. Ling speed finished at 7min45sec when you took gas at 4min30sec. You put workers on gas and started upgrade both on time, so 3min15sec after taking gas is almost optimal timing for lingspeed.
Technically speaking, Protoss cannot scout 4min30sec gas by Zerg because Queen + initial lings are already out by that time. It requires good probe micro to scout it past 5range queen + lings on creep. Therefore, Protoss doesn't know for sure if ling speed finishes at 7min45 for this gas timing, or not until 9-10 min mark.
Today, protoss players assume that ling speed is delayed because it is the "metagame" and 1-2 stalkers can wander aroud the map for pressure with guaranteed retreat route. Also, a probe put proxy pylons without any escort because slow lings can't quite catch up with probe and take time to kill it.
Now, if Zerg players incorporate this earlier gas build into arsenal, and mix it up, then Protoss would hesitate to go pressure with a few initial units or at least has to retreat earlier in fear of speedlings EVEN WHEN Zerg actually doesn't take early gas. If 50% of games are this earlier gas build, and the rest of 50% are current late gas style, then shifting metagame itself rewards Zerg players just by putting Protoss in doubt and hesitate to go early pressure build.
In order of economical openings, Current 3 base no gas style This fast lingspeed 3 base style 2 base style OP suggested
Maybe Zerg plays too greedy lately and asking to be pressured too easily. Earlier lingspeed investment seems to be cost-efficient enough.
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OK, I've been out picking up supplies to brew beer, and have been thinking about this some more.
Some questions....
1) What do speedlings pre 8 minute accomplish?
2) How many speedlings do you need to accomplish goals in question number 1?
For my little test...I just picked a rough 2 base mineral saturation as a point to quit droning and then made lings. Ideally.....I would have stopped at 32 drones, 16 in the main, 16 in the natural.
However, while thinking about it, I think 30+ lings is too many. At 7-8 minutes into the game, the goals, in my mind, are to find proxy pylons, and shut down any attempt at a third base by the protoss. I don't think you need 30 to do that. 10-20 is probably way more than enough.
Now, the second goal that I can come up with, and later, in terms of time, is to actually contain the protoss INSIDE their base while on two bases, for fear of being surrounded by lings. I think this needs to be tested by competant players. What can be accomplished by lings made earlier than normal? At the time I am thinking here (~9-11 minutes) speed would normally be done....but zerg would not really have units out en masse by the protoss base in a normal game. How many lings would zerg need to contain protoss? Is it possible? Can zerg drone from 30-40....30-50....30-60 before they start making lings and pull it off?
My gut tells me that if zerg makes like 15 speedlings and has them out on the map around 7:30, and shuts down any attempt at proxies or a third, protoss is going to be mighty apprehensive about pushing out. Further...if zerg squeezes out say, 20 more drones and then floods with lings...zerg and protoss are on even econ, and I THINK zerg could conceivably keep protoss in their base. At this time zerg could completely saturate their 3rd..take all their gases...and tech up.
I just dont know. Any other thoughts?
edit: the previous poster brought up a good point. I honestly dont know if this is good or bad in general....but protoss can't really scout this. He is going to know you have speedlings when they are at his base or killing his proxies. With no real chance to scout, what would the normal protoss reaction be? Would they continue with an all in? Would they tech to colossi on 2 base? Would they mass up sentries and cannons for fear of a bust? Would they try to push out, play defensive, and take a reasonably timed third with extra defenses?
I feel like by doing this, you are likely really limiting the options protoss has. A gateway all-in is already being pretty much hard countered. A later sentry/immortal push I THINK would be dealt with fairly easily also. It seems to me like you are forcing protoss to take a third behind units. They cannot do it with a walloff/cannons, because there are a pile of lings sitting at the third. Would protoss be ahead or behind in this situation if zerg went right back to droning after the initial lings? I feel like any economic edge you conceded to the protoss while they are on 2 base is meaningless if they can't push while on 2 bases, so where will both players end up if zerg macros while protoss take a third passively and late?
Damnit this is really bugging me. It might be counter intuitive....but is this strategy forcing play to 4 base vs 3 base, which really is the end goal of the zerg anyway, assuming they do not want to get aggressive with a max roach/ling bust, correct?
I think it might be actually possible to get a 4th, infestors and broods out faster and safer with this. Who knows, I'm rambling and need a drink now.
If nothing else...this is a way to dictate the course of the game, rather than letting protoss wind up, and throw whatever godforsaken 2 base all-in at you he feels like.
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On gasless 3 hatch into ling/bling:
Is this viable in the "two base" phase of ZvP, late game is obviously a different story? I've never actually tried it, but I would think that you could have blings out by the time any all in arrives and you might even be able to have speed (ling and bling) depending on the nature of the all in/aggression Plus 1 carapace would probably be the early upgrade of choice for handling zealots. Force fields would be a problem, but they are for any early game Zerg tech and it's much faster to setup flanks and run away with ling/bling than roaches.
I don't think I've ever seen this done, so I have nothing to compare it to and just because I would be successful in Diamond with this strat doesn't actually make it good
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Ok so I played a few games this way against immortal all ins. I baited a whole lot of ffs with the lings, but still lost. Not sure if that is the build, or related to the fact I can't stop it with a more normal build either lol.
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Sounds good but what if he doesnt attack? what if what you think is a blink allin is actually a 2 base collosus push. In that case you would 100% die to the collosus having forfeited so much economy.
Id argue making excess units before the attack hits is an even more risky playstyle that just bets on him attacking.
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On August 07 2012 06:23 TheGreenMachine wrote: Sounds good but what if he doesnt attack? what if what you think is a blink allin is actually a 2 base collosus push. In that case you would 100% die to the collosus having forfeited so much economy.
Id argue making excess units before the attack hits is an even more risky playstyle that just bets on him attacking.
Yeah 2 base colossi is something i thought would be pretty strong against this, but i think you would have a raging economy and likely infestors out by the time this hits. Again, I'm not sure how the timing work out, but thse lings set you back less than a minute, and you could make the argument you are teching faster by playing this way since you are spending less gas on roaches.
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On August 07 2012 06:28 abefroman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 06:23 TheGreenMachine wrote: Sounds good but what if he doesnt attack? what if what you think is a blink allin is actually a 2 base collosus push. In that case you would 100% die to the collosus having forfeited so much economy.
Id argue making excess units before the attack hits is an even more risky playstyle that just bets on him attacking. Yeah 2 base colossi is something i thought would be pretty strong against this, but i think you would have a raging economy and likely infestors out by the time this hits. Again, I'm not sure how the timing work out, but thse lings set you back less than a minute, and you could make the argument you are teching faster by playing this way since you are spending less gas on roaches. Oh ok, so I can definitely agree with this.
Using the small to medium group of zerglings to force your opponent in a certain direction, towards 2 base collosus for instance. If he pushes out with 4 zealot +1, or with a cheesy 3rd base, or with a small # stalkers for blink allin you will destroy him but if he goes collosus that is a likely response after he sees the lings. Tho sentry immortal push might be just as likely or moreso. Maybe a 2 base muta? with a focus on doing economic damage forcing stalkers rather than collosus or sentry. Hell I don't know what im sayin anymore
Using the lings as a way to narrow down what your opponent does is a very useful tool, sometimes worth the lower economy.
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On August 07 2012 06:32 TheGreenMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 06:28 abefroman wrote:On August 07 2012 06:23 TheGreenMachine wrote: Sounds good but what if he doesnt attack? what if what you think is a blink allin is actually a 2 base collosus push. In that case you would 100% die to the collosus having forfeited so much economy.
Id argue making excess units before the attack hits is an even more risky playstyle that just bets on him attacking. Yeah 2 base colossi is something i thought would be pretty strong against this, but i think you would have a raging economy and likely infestors out by the time this hits. Again, I'm not sure how the timing work out, but thse lings set you back less than a minute, and you could make the argument you are teching faster by playing this way since you are spending less gas on roaches. Oh ok, so I can definitely agree with this. Using the small to medium group of zerglings to force your opponent in a certain direction, towards 2 base collosus for instance. If he pushes out with 4 zealot +1, or with a cheesy 3rd base, or with a small # stalkers for blink allin you will destroy him but if he goes collosus that is a likely response after he sees the lings. Tho sentry immortal push might be just as likely or moreso. Maybe a 2 base muta? with a focus on doing economic damage forcing stalkers rather than collosus or sentry. Hell I don't know what im sayin anymore Using the lings as a way to narrow down what your opponent does is a very useful tool, sometimes worth the lower economy.
Yes thank you, thats exactly what I was thinking. I mean you can basically scratch off any sort of all in gateway timing, as well as very fast thirds. There is just no way for either of those to succeed. I played against someone who took a third off of some units, and i just took a 4th base and went straight for brood/infestor. I lost, but it was because I was playing against a masters player, and he went mothership/carrier lol! I actually had a TON of infestors, and very very early broods, because the only gas I spent the whole game was on ling speed, lair, +1 attack. Everything else went towards brood/infestor.
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