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I want this thread to be a discussion on the topic at hand, and I'll be totally honest I dont know how you fix it without breaking another matchup. That being said Starcraft 2 needs to be both fair and entertaining at the professional level, and reasonably balanced for the scrubs playing ladder. It's important that players on both sides of every matchup have the ability to both be aggressive and at the same time use the information given to them to be defensive.
From watching Dreamhack, and then into the GSL I haven't seen a Terran player be able to execute an early attack successfully on a Protoss player, no matter the level of greed the Protoss player is abusing. It's not uncommon to see 6 or 7 zealots and a pair of sentries as the defense for a Protoss player heading into the 10th or 11th minute of a game. The opposite is true of Protoss players being aggressive against Terrans. I've seen Terrans lose to oracles, 2stalker mc attacks, oracle busts, four gates, blink all ins, immortal busts and even dt's.
Protoss can easily, even with minimal to no scouting information defend Terran aggression without even having to deviate from their normal build. The basic point of MSC+3 warp gates and some form of detection will stop nearly any Terran attack early on in the game, up until the mid-late. There is very little extra preparation required to stop most Terran attacks, and with good reaction time + unit positioning it's fairly easy for a high level Protoss to stop Terran aggression. Case and point is Woongjin SoS going 1 gate expand directly into a 2rax bunker rush from bomber that he scouted, not even a second thought about canceling his nexus. The next game he kills him with a 3gate (bomber lost 19 scvs to the 3gate, when sOs expanded).
The reverse is simply not true. If the Terran player is unable to scout early aggression from the Protoss player there many situations where he simply dies. The frustration however does come from one specific front, but from the multiple different ways a Terran needs to defend. Couple that with the extreme difficulty Terran has in properly scouting and figuring out what Protoss is doing. The final nail in the coffin is all the different ways a Terran needs to prepare for the various all ins a Protoss can do. Most of them require very specific setups to defend and being safe against something is hard enough even with perfect information. The case here? Polt scouting grubby's proxy oracle twice and both times being unable to defend the oncoming attacks.
Then there the greedy Protoss. If the Protoss just simply goes for extremely fast upgrades and either fast Colossus or even more scary very fast upgrades and templar the Terran player can be in a world of trouble. The case study here is Parting vs. Flash where Flash is safe against proxy oracles, scouting for anything that Parting might be hiding etc. Then Flash simply can't out micro Zealot/Archon because the upgrades Parting has are first class, Flash just dies without so much as a whimper. Now I dont want to take anything away from Parting because he proved that his builds were air tight, and he played extremely well but it was hard to watch.
The ability to read what a Protoss player is doing is also extremely difficult right now, some of the best Korean terrans in the world are struggling to get a grasp on what their opponent is doing. Hell Flash seemed confused by what Parting was going to do. 2 Pylons, 350 mined gas, a Stalker and Mothership core could easily be any build Protoss has available, from proxy oracles, blink all ins, 2stalker mc rush, dt's or a fast expansion. There is not clear indication of aggression or macro play from that particular set of buildings. Add into the mixture the randomness and lack of polish on your average ladder and things can get extremely difficult in a hurry.
The discussion point is this though. Is there an imbalance in win/lose states to TvP in the first 11-12 minutes of the game. What do I mean by this? Well simply put there is no lose state for Protoss in the early game of TvP unless the Protoss player makes a mistake regarding control/map awareness. Protoss can play a safe build and be fine against anything Terran does, assuming they react in time. Terran on the other hand has multiple lose states unless they are specifically prepared to defend them.
TLDR: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend.
My conclusion here is pretty simple. Early->Mid game TvP really needs to be looked at and taken seriously by Blizzard. The matchup is quickly becoming a ladder nightmare for a lot of Terran players, and in tournament play it's starting to really lean in Protoss players favour where small advantages become huge ones when you involve the best players in the world. I would love to see the sub 12 minute matchup winrates for TvP, but I dont have access to those statistics.
Please for the love of god discuss recent pro games, your own experiences etc. I'm extremely interested in games where equally skilled players compete that go against what I'm presenting here, so link and bring evidence. Most importantly discuss things with intelligence and respect.
I want to make this point clear as well, even though it is basically unrelated to the discussion of this thread. I feel that Terran has a huge advantage in late game TvP, and with the right mixture of units+great control will ALWAYS win the fights. I think that is something that is better discussed in different threads.
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i find myself agreeing with you for the most part. the mothership core makes protoss too safe
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TLDR: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend.
Thats a bit to harsh. Yes the MSC is strong, maybe a bit too strong but with speedmedivacs you still have options. Allins are always an issue as seen with Naniwa yesterday as shuttle scouted it but couldnt do anything because of his opening.
As a Terran you just need to be the better player like a league above or something like that but thats nothing new.
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Good post. But I'm not sure what you're getting at...
I thought everyone knew that Protoss could do anything they want until 3rd base because of Nexus Cannon? This was common knowledge since early beta.
If Terran wants to win TvP in HotS there are 2 options:
+1/stim/combat shield timing; or
SCV pull with viking (if P opened colo) or ghost (if P opened templar) when Protoss is switching tech (colo <--> templar) while taking/or just after taking 3rd.
If neither if these timings are met it's a Protoss free win.
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Hmm well for me personally on ladder it seems fine (I play Terran).
It's true that if a Protoss decides to do an attack off 1 base, it's pretty hard to tell which one it is. There are so many viable options, and all require completely different responses. Proxy oracle, proxy immortal, 4-gate, 3-gate voidray, DTs, DT with warp prism, blink, I'm sure there are more. If you prepare for all of them you will obviously be behind by far (turret at minerals, 2 bunkers in the front, turret at the front, saving scans, getting out a siege tank). That said, after being cheesed so many times I now build my CC on the high ground and never take my natural until I see Protoss expanded.
The 9-11m window where you have stim/shields, +1 (potentially even 1/1), a couple medivacs, is still quite scary I think. Protoss still can't take 3 bases and tech straight to templars for example. I think any early templar tech can be hard to hold, because you won't have storm in time to stop the early attacks (for example PartinG v Flash game 1, even though PartinG won he was clearly behind after the early game).
One thing I think is terrible, is that the oracle speed boost might go through. If there is one part of Protoss that doesn't need help it would be the 1-base all-ins.
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Several of the top grandmasters on KR ladder are regularly opening with mine drops/hellion drops, sometimes with and sometimes without added marine pressure, and having a lot of success. The mothership core is strong at defending earlygame frontal attacks but it's not a free pass to make no units and it certainly doesn't mean the Protoss can always get away with no scouting.
And the matchup taken as a whole isn't currently particularly imbalanced, even at the top levels (I expect to get people disagreeing with this statement, but at present it's true). The period after stim+medivacs are done is still very dangerous for the Protoss and it's far from trivial to establish a 3rd base, that hasn't really changed at all.
That said, I agree with your point in general and I don't think reducing the duration of the nexus cannon to something like 40 seconds would break anything (although it'd make it harder to hold an expand in PvP ). I wouldn't object to Blizzard making that change, waiting a couple months and seeing what happens.
e: Wow the first few replies to the completely reasonable OP are just ridiculous balance whine. Terran is doing just fine, you're not losing your ladder games because of imbalance. Sorry.
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Most proper TvP wins I've seen are the big scv pull allin that hits when Protoss tech switches or sometimes the old standard medivac timing, but that's becoming rare now. Before and after that brief timing Protoss is just stronger. I'm sure the winrates aren't that bad, but the matchup is retarded.
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I would like to remind the Terran players about something you guys have been saying to Protosses complaining about the Medivac Ignite Afterburners strength constantly; 'you just have to learn how to deal with it, give it some time'.
There's enough opportunity for early aggression in my opinion. I agree Photon Overcharge shuts down most super early Marine all-ins, but early Factory play, drop play, or triggering early Photon Overcharge by a small force followed by a stronger follow up attack all have potential.
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United States283 Posts
Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
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you make it out to be that in mid game terran somehow lost their dominance in setting the pace of the game...
Drops are insanely good and the options are vast. Hellbats,mines, marines, marines with mines... normal hellions who are also far from shabby. Late game is also now way better than it was in WoL for terran - even the new ladder maps are great for drops. Now you need the early game to be a great opportunity for rather safe harrassment as well?
In addition if you commit to oracle for example you have to do damage the first time, once the T scouts it the timing window is over as about 1 turret shuts it down - something you can't say for a drop as units there are also good in a straight up fight if you don't carelessly lose them and 1 - hell most of the times more cannons, will do nothing against it.
Flash played bad compared to what he is capable of. I am a Parting fan and even I hoped for better games. In game 1 he completely fell apart in the late game and did not seem to know that to do. His mid game was extremely strong and he was in a great position to end it but did not and a high class player like Parting used that to his advantage. Happens at that level. Game 2 was really strange as Flash really misread the situation. This thread is terribly biased and lacks perspective it seems - and lol@ the scouting part... how will protoss scout more than the first rax and gas if T walls the ramp? Instead of losing the probe and gain almost nothing you rather do not scout at all and be more active on the map...
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You sir are right. This is exactly whats been making me rage on ladder since hots. Protoss has always been a strong race so the aim since wol was to agress them early game in order for them to not grow up too Fast,but since MSC its nodaway impossible and they clan do whatever they want...Its feels unfair.
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It is being addressed - the oracle is in for a buff. The design is what Blizzard always said - asymmetrical. Loss of terran early game option is supposedly recompensed with stronger mid-game.
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On May 03 2013 19:29 Filter wrote: I want to make this point clear as well, even though it is basically unrelated to the discussion of this thread. I feel that Terran has a huge advantage in late game TvP, and with the right mixture of units+great control will ALWAYS win the fights. I think that is something that is better discussed in different threads.
I know you don't want to discuss lategame here, but...
On May 03 2013 19:39 Netsky wrote: Good post. But I'm not sure what you're getting at...
I thought everyone knew that Protoss could do anything they want until 3rd base because of Nexus Cannon? This was common knowledge since early beta.
If Terran wants to win TvP in HotS there are 2 options:
+1/stim/combat shield timing; or
SCV pull with viking (if P opened colo) or ghost (if P opened templar) when Protoss is switching tech (colo <--> templar) while taking/or just after taking 3rd.
If neither if these timings are met it's a Protoss free win.
I'm thinking this is relevant, since the early/midgame problem is even bigger if lategame isn't even an option.
I don't think the ghost/viking behind an orbital farm + scv sac spoon tactic really works anymore, since the toss can add tempests into his ball and force you into an awkward engagement, before your army can get big enough.
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In pro-level games it should be expected that the Protoss player should be prepared for early pressure and vice versa strictly because they are pros. Im in GM and unless you're 100% confident in what you are doing you will get shut down hard. Admittedly now I use 2 sentries a stalker and a MSC but in WoL I had to dedicate more economy to defend against Terran players to the point where I was behind when defending a group of 4-6 marines. It was ridiculous. Now when I hit midgame I never feel like I'm always in an uphill battle. I feel confident that I can hit lategame. It's amazing for a Protoss player to feel that I don't need to hit a 2 base timing to disrupt the Terran to survive. I never thought Speedvacs were OP because I'm comfortable defending drop play - but others aren't. I thought Widow Mines were OP in Beta because unless you make a few extra obs or cannon your mineral line they would destroy you. Now that Protoss can survive easier is no reason to nerf them. Remember it's not the offence youre complaining about it's the defence. Why do people hate going lategame...
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On May 03 2013 19:56 pmp10 wrote: It is being addressed - the oracle is in for a buff. The design is what Blizzard always said - asymmetrical. Loss of terran early game option is supposedly recompensed with stronger mid-game.
Protoss doesn't exactly have much of a weaker mid-game if one is not playing greedy. I'm open to counter-arguments on this.
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The game is asymmetric, what's the problem ?
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On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
No. Once P got the Core, you can not win aymore because of the nexus cannon. If gives too much time.
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On May 03 2013 19:58 sUgArMaNiAc wrote: In pro-level games it should be expected that the Protoss player should be prepared for early pressure and vice versa strictly because they are pros. Im in GM and unless you're 100% confident in what you are doing you will get shut down hard. Admittedly now I use 2 sentries a stalker and a MSC but in WoL I had to dedicate more economy to defend against Terran players to the point where I was behind when defending a group of 4-6 marines. It was ridiculous. Now when I hit midgame I never feel like I'm always in an uphill battle. I feel confident that I can hit lategame. It's amazing for a Protoss player to feel that I don't need to hit a 2 base timing to disrupt the Terran to survive. I never thought Speedvacs were OP because I'm comfortable defending drop play - but others aren't. I thought Widow Mines were OP in Beta because unless you make a few extra obs or cannon your mineral line they would destroy you. Now that Protoss can survive easier is no reason to nerf them. Remember it's not the offence youre complaining about it's the defence. Why do people hate going lategame... Probably because they don't play protoss...
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i havent played alot of games in hots but i tried a few games of 111 and i can still beat master protoss with a 20marine 3 tank 2 banshee 1 raven timeing, now i can also reinforce the bunker siege at his natural with widowmines wich makes it even stronger against the 1gate robo expand build, just station tanks right outside nexutary fortress range and expand behind it.
(im a rusty low master terran)
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On May 03 2013 20:08 Hemling wrote: i havent played alot of games in hots but i tried a few games of 111 and i can still beat master protoss with a 20marine 3 tank 2 banshee 1 raven timeing, now i can also reinforce the bunker siege at his natural with widowmines wich makes it even stronger against the 1gate robo expand build, just station tanks right outside nexutary fortress range and expand behind it.
(im a rusty low master terran)
What use is sieging their natural if you can't hit their nex? Can that build deal with the various protoss 1-base builds that you see ~50 % of the time?
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