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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 25 2014 21:30 NeThZOR wrote: Stephano, if he is to be believed, trained less than 3 hours a day and he was crushing players left and right during his prime. The golden key to performance is training efficiently and in the correct environment. One also have to possess the talent to be good at something, otherwise you can burn yourself out trying to be something you aren't. I don't know how much Stephano played while in europe, but when he was in Korea he played a toooooooooooooon.
I'm almost sure the 3 hours thing is like a 'legend' kind of thing, but I do believe he's someone who practiced smart --- I just don't buy the 3 hours hehe )
(Although it depends on how you count it, for example if he ramped up practice a lot to get ready for certain parts of the year with important events and then very relaxed in the off-seasons then that makes sense too - i.e periodization training).
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On December 25 2014 21:30 NeThZOR wrote: Stephano, if he is to be believed, trained less than 3 hours a day and he was crushing players left and right during his prime. The golden key to performance is training efficiently and in the correct environment. One also have to possess the talent to be good at something, otherwise you can burn yourself out trying to be something you aren't.
Stephano definitly used to play more than he would ever say. Moreover, I think you don't have to be talented to be good at something, training always pay off at some point.Of course, some people will be better with less training but saying that you have to be "talented" to achieve something is wrong.
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the stephano argument is using the exception to disprove the rule which is always a silly and intellectually lazy way to approach a question
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Wouldn't it be stupid to not play 8 hours a day and win almost every tournament when you have the skill to beat top players with just 3 hours of training? I still don't get the clue about Stephano.
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On December 25 2014 21:46 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2014 23:11 SatedSC2 wrote: I think eSports practice regiments are 100% inefficient. Watch a football team practicing. Do they play 90 minute games over and over and over and over? No, they mostly perform drills of important skills over and over and over. They rarely play full-games in training and it certainly doesn't form the bulk of their practice. While not 100% on topic, I really want to highlight this post. Sooo much of their 12 (or whatever) hours go into staring at loading screens, waiting for ladder to find games, doing the same opening build that they already can do with their eyes closed. Just as a random figure, I'd say that they spend well below 50% of their time actually pushing their skill limit in any way (even analysing scouting information, or trying to come up with the best build). And even that time they do spend getting actual training, they have very little control over what they are training if they play on ladder (map, matchup or opponents build). You can fix this part by having a practice partner that you can repeat the same builds against each other on the same map over and over, which I'd is already a huge improvement over random laddering. But you still spend a lot of time in load screen and building the first few scvs. So what you SHOULD do (imo ), is to pick your build you want to train, and what build you want to train against, and identify all the difficult moments, such as scouting patterns, harass micro, harass defense, timing micro, etc. Then you play "perfect" games up to that point, save and replay that part over and over again (against your training partner) until you know every in and out of it. Do that for every scout, harass or engagement between the two builds. Explore other situations that can appear if the opponent goes down unexpected paths. After having gone through all that, THEN you can start actually playing real games against you partner. There should be arcade maps (or can be easily created) that allows you to take a snapshot in a game and replay from there over and over without going through long load screens. You can do your banshee harass over and over for an hour straight without having to lose a second to load screen or building scvs. Not sure if this is how the pros train in korea. Are you sure because the streamer I am watching is just laddering for 12 hours straight and if somebody tells her to take a break she gets angry lol. Livibee paces herself better. I
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saw an interview on TL where Flash said he did 21 hours once o_O
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On December 25 2014 23:06 ren0312 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2014 21:46 Cascade wrote:On December 24 2014 23:11 SatedSC2 wrote: I think eSports practice regiments are 100% inefficient. Watch a football team practicing. Do they play 90 minute games over and over and over and over? No, they mostly perform drills of important skills over and over and over. They rarely play full-games in training and it certainly doesn't form the bulk of their practice. While not 100% on topic, I really want to highlight this post. Sooo much of their 12 (or whatever) hours go into staring at loading screens, waiting for ladder to find games, doing the same opening build that they already can do with their eyes closed. Just as a random figure, I'd say that they spend well below 50% of their time actually pushing their skill limit in any way (even analysing scouting information, or trying to come up with the best build). And even that time they do spend getting actual training, they have very little control over what they are training if they play on ladder (map, matchup or opponents build). You can fix this part by having a practice partner that you can repeat the same builds against each other on the same map over and over, which I'd is already a huge improvement over random laddering. But you still spend a lot of time in load screen and building the first few scvs. So what you SHOULD do (imo ), is to pick your build you want to train, and what build you want to train against, and identify all the difficult moments, such as scouting patterns, harass micro, harass defense, timing micro, etc. Then you play "perfect" games up to that point, save and replay that part over and over again (against your training partner) until you know every in and out of it. Do that for every scout, harass or engagement between the two builds. Explore other situations that can appear if the opponent goes down unexpected paths. After having gone through all that, THEN you can start actually playing real games against you partner. There should be arcade maps (or can be easily created) that allows you to take a snapshot in a game and replay from there over and over without going through long load screens. You can do your banshee harass over and over for an hour straight without having to lose a second to load screen or building scvs. Not sure if this is how the pros train in korea. Are you sure because the streamer I am watching is just laddering for 12 hours straight and if somebody tells her to take a break she gets angry lol.
is that player a zerg?
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On December 25 2014 23:09 Hadronsbecrazy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2014 23:06 ren0312 wrote:On December 25 2014 21:46 Cascade wrote:On December 24 2014 23:11 SatedSC2 wrote: I think eSports practice regiments are 100% inefficient. Watch a football team practicing. Do they play 90 minute games over and over and over and over? No, they mostly perform drills of important skills over and over and over. They rarely play full-games in training and it certainly doesn't form the bulk of their practice. While not 100% on topic, I really want to highlight this post. Sooo much of their 12 (or whatever) hours go into staring at loading screens, waiting for ladder to find games, doing the same opening build that they already can do with their eyes closed. Just as a random figure, I'd say that they spend well below 50% of their time actually pushing their skill limit in any way (even analysing scouting information, or trying to come up with the best build). And even that time they do spend getting actual training, they have very little control over what they are training if they play on ladder (map, matchup or opponents build). You can fix this part by having a practice partner that you can repeat the same builds against each other on the same map over and over, which I'd is already a huge improvement over random laddering. But you still spend a lot of time in load screen and building the first few scvs. So what you SHOULD do (imo ), is to pick your build you want to train, and what build you want to train against, and identify all the difficult moments, such as scouting patterns, harass micro, harass defense, timing micro, etc. Then you play "perfect" games up to that point, save and replay that part over and over again (against your training partner) until you know every in and out of it. Do that for every scout, harass or engagement between the two builds. Explore other situations that can appear if the opponent goes down unexpected paths. After having gone through all that, THEN you can start actually playing real games against you partner. There should be arcade maps (or can be easily created) that allows you to take a snapshot in a game and replay from there over and over without going through long load screens. You can do your banshee harass over and over for an hour straight without having to lose a second to load screen or building scvs. Not sure if this is how the pros train in korea. Are you sure because the streamer I am watching is just laddering for 12 hours straight and if somebody tells her to take a break she gets angry lol. is that player a zerg? Yes.
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On December 25 2014 23:10 ren0312 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2014 23:09 Hadronsbecrazy wrote:On December 25 2014 23:06 ren0312 wrote:On December 25 2014 21:46 Cascade wrote:On December 24 2014 23:11 SatedSC2 wrote: I think eSports practice regiments are 100% inefficient. Watch a football team practicing. Do they play 90 minute games over and over and over and over? No, they mostly perform drills of important skills over and over and over. They rarely play full-games in training and it certainly doesn't form the bulk of their practice. While not 100% on topic, I really want to highlight this post. Sooo much of their 12 (or whatever) hours go into staring at loading screens, waiting for ladder to find games, doing the same opening build that they already can do with their eyes closed. Just as a random figure, I'd say that they spend well below 50% of their time actually pushing their skill limit in any way (even analysing scouting information, or trying to come up with the best build). And even that time they do spend getting actual training, they have very little control over what they are training if they play on ladder (map, matchup or opponents build). You can fix this part by having a practice partner that you can repeat the same builds against each other on the same map over and over, which I'd is already a huge improvement over random laddering. But you still spend a lot of time in load screen and building the first few scvs. So what you SHOULD do (imo ), is to pick your build you want to train, and what build you want to train against, and identify all the difficult moments, such as scouting patterns, harass micro, harass defense, timing micro, etc. Then you play "perfect" games up to that point, save and replay that part over and over again (against your training partner) until you know every in and out of it. Do that for every scout, harass or engagement between the two builds. Explore other situations that can appear if the opponent goes down unexpected paths. After having gone through all that, THEN you can start actually playing real games against you partner. There should be arcade maps (or can be easily created) that allows you to take a snapshot in a game and replay from there over and over without going through long load screens. You can do your banshee harass over and over for an hour straight without having to lose a second to load screen or building scvs. Not sure if this is how the pros train in korea. Are you sure because the streamer I am watching is just laddering for 12 hours straight and if somebody tells her to take a break she gets angry lol. is that player a zerg? Yes. I was honestly worried that she was going to have a cardiac right in front of her viewers yesterday.
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On December 25 2014 21:46 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2014 23:11 SatedSC2 wrote: I think eSports practice regiments are 100% inefficient. Watch a football team practicing. Do they play 90 minute games over and over and over and over? No, they mostly perform drills of important skills over and over and over. They rarely play full-games in training and it certainly doesn't form the bulk of their practice. While not 100% on topic, I really want to highlight this post. Sooo much of their 12 (or whatever) hours go into staring at loading screens, waiting for ladder to find games, doing the same opening build that they already can do with their eyes closed. Just as a random figure, I'd say that they spend well below 50% of their time actually pushing their skill limit in any way (even analysing scouting information, or trying to come up with the best build). And even that time they do spend getting actual training, they have very little control over what they are training if they play on ladder (map, matchup or opponents build). You can fix this part by having a practice partner that you can repeat the same builds against each other on the same map over and over, which I'd is already a huge improvement over random laddering. But you still spend a lot of time in load screen and building the first few scvs. So what you SHOULD do (imo ), is to pick your build you want to train, and what build you want to train against, and identify all the difficult moments, such as scouting patterns, harass micro, harass defense, timing micro, etc. Then you play "perfect" games up to that point, save and replay that part over and over again (against your training partner) until you know every in and out of it. Do that for every scout, harass or engagement between the two builds. Explore other situations that can appear if the opponent goes down unexpected paths. After having gone through all that, THEN you can start actually playing real games against you partner. There should be arcade maps (or can be easily created) that allows you to take a snapshot in a game and replay from there over and over without going through long load screens. You can do your banshee harass over and over for an hour straight without having to lose a second to load screen or building scvs. Not sure if this is how the pros train in korea. Couldn't agree more.
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If it is "inefficient" why the Koreans ALWAYS win in the eSports they care about? I think it's pure bullshit to argue when the results speak for themselves.
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On December 25 2014 23:43 Starecat wrote: If it is "inefficient" why the Koreans ALWAYS win in the eSports they care about? I think it's pure bullshit to argue when the results speak for themselves. i'm not one of the people arguing that they are inefficient, but your logic is poor. koreans win because they're talented and yes, certainly because they practice a lot. but just because they practice a lot and it works it doesn't necessarily follow that there's no possible way to improve.
imagine if medical science just stopped trying to improve because we already have medicine?
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United States32480 Posts
I figure it's pretty case-by-case
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On December 25 2014 23:43 Starecat wrote: If it is "inefficient" why the Koreans ALWAYS win in the eSports they care about? I think it's pure bullshit to argue when the results speak for themselves. From my perspective why they win 95 percent of the time is there mindset the skill level I believe is negligible between the top players in the world what makes the divide so much wider is the believe that are so good that they will never be beat. Its drilled into the mindset of players outside of Korea is that there playing not for best player in the world but just there region and that is very hard to overcome if your a single player without a team or a good support group to build ones confidence. Yes practice does go a long way but you have to work on the mental side also.
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This crazy Grind 10-12 hour days a week have been proven to breed the best players. If other training methods worked then the Korean Practice regime and team house system would be shown. So if you want to be the best we have a tried and true method just have to give your life to the game.
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On December 25 2014 08:31 NTTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2014 01:58 sabas123 wrote:On December 24 2014 23:40 NTTemplar wrote: Well flash during BW was on a 10hour a day practice schedule and he became the best with that.
and that matches up very well with a 10 hour sleep schedule too, since it leaves 4 hours for eating, excercise and other daily tasks.
As for SC2, koreans are known to practice far more hours than westerners and the result shows. wait wut? everything I read about flash was that he was one of THE hardest workers there was, playing 16+ hours aday if you could source your stuff I would be very happy^^ From different interviews, but from the one I found from my quick google search which is even posted here on TL its "http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/129095-flash-interview-by-shindonga-magazine" Where he answers: Q: We’ve heard that progamers regularly go through immense practice schedules. How long do you practice on average? -Progamers all live in dorms close to the practice house. We get up at 10:30, and get to the practice house after breakfast at around 11. Because of this, we wait till 3pm before eating lunch. From 4pm-8pm, we continue practicing, and then it’s dinner time. Players on the A team have free time after this, and we can choose to practice or not, but most people will stay to practice until 11pm. aaahhhh yes, I remember that interview.
althou he doesn't state that he leaves after he is free so doubt he only practiced 10 hours aday.
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On December 25 2014 23:54 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2014 23:43 Starecat wrote: If it is "inefficient" why the Koreans ALWAYS win in the eSports they care about? I think it's pure bullshit to argue when the results speak for themselves. i'm not one of the people arguing that they are inefficient, but your logic is poor. koreans win because they're talented and yes, certainly because they practice a lot. but just because they practice a lot and it works it doesn't necessarily follow that there's no possible way to improve. imagine if medical science just stopped trying to improve because we already have medicine?
an entire race isn't just naturally talented at playing out a very specifically paced strategy game, unless you're talking about the culture and all that influencing it i the long run.
if you are trying to rationalize efficient training over inefficient 'practice' you had better use more parallel comparisons between starcraft and any other sport you had in mind. you are literally sitting here and playing a game at your leisure, regardless of if it is your job or not. if you didn't enjoy this sort of training environment, you wouldn't be attempting to do it in the first place.
qualified as a professional who gets sent out of country and out to proleague matches? semi-pro who is streaming to double as entertainment and to be able to view the vods for analyzing later? huge difference between the two. they can practice the same, and the top-end pro could know exactly what he wants to practice on and how to get the most out of their time, while the amateur wants to get whatever he can out the the sheer amount of time they're investing (which again, is quite easy for someone seeking to sit here for hours of their own volition). in the latter case, it's much easier to say that those 16 hours you spend practicing is a show of your commitment to the task despite how much use it actually is.
whether the player is aware of it or not, they are trying to justify the efforts they're putting into this game. It's not up to you to tell them otherwise, unless you're their coach of course.
honestly, some players just learn better through repetition and exhausting all the mistakes you can make until you no longer make them anymore. i know i certainly tend to resort to that method sometimes. we can't afford the time of others and outside opinions to be able to constantly scrutinize and correct the way we tend to function. we just do it the way we know works. changing your mentality can take forever in terms of e-sports time and is ultimately fruitless, stressful, and depressing as you get no direct results by trying to be efficient like you should.
just don't consider these players as idiots and as people who have no clue what they're doing when it comes to practice. comparing this game to a physical sport (practice regimen).. is once again quite silly. you're not being told what to eat or how to prevent mild-strokes and muscles from getting cold. you're being told to win as best you can, as often as you can playing a computer game, then you retire into studies and what you want to do for the rest of your life.
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Norway839 Posts
Everybody's trying to find what works for them but it's easier said than done. As a pro you search for every single gem that can bring your skill up. But it takes time and you don't get time saving & performance boosting knowledge bombs dropped on you as often as you might think. The less you can utilize infrastructure and peer support, the more it's about consciousness and self-awareness.
Here's an example from a foreigner perspective: It took ages before I realized I should turn my mouse sensitivity down to interact with the playfield better. Never struck me as very important because what I did up to that point worked well. In 2011 i used mouse acceleration and did very well in ling baneling fights so I didn't give mouse settings all too much thought until I decided to do a full revamp in late 2013. This was mostly due to trying to learn from players that were better than me. The change resulted in ~1-2 months of stagnation and mediocre results - but then it paid off with a big increase in performance.
Why didn't I change it back in 2011 or 2012? Because nobody in my local scene (Norway) or the EU team house I went to had a single conscious thought about it and neither did I really. You focus on other things you think are important to you, like practicing vs immortal all-ins, doing this and that ... lol in 2011 I was probably thinking more about catching the bus to work and working on solving 2v2 problems. Anyway ... there are always important fundamental flaws in your game and small things that can help your average skill, but finding those things isn't always easy.
Stephano had a big lead on everybody because he spent a lot of conscious thought and deliberate practice on injects for example - and as you know, injects help all across the board. 1 hour of practicing your injects is probably going to give more results on average than 1 hour of practicing vs immortal all-ins. Of course, these two blocks in combination, and the results will be even better. As much as foreign players/forum posters like to discredit mass practice, quantity really isn't harmful in itself imo. But it's tough to know what to practice sometimes, which brings me to the next point:
Support & infrastructure. A better skilled player will have a much easier time pointing out your mistakes than you will have with a hit & miss process ... but a lot of the time you don't have the privilege of having a game teacher or multiple top level peers. In EU for example there are no team houses where everybody's basically 2000+ aligulac rated, so improving is a lot more tedious and less lefficient by nature in EU when compared with KR. Sure there's Skype and stuff but Korea has proven time and time again that KR team house approach = pretty good. Yes there are drop-outs due to the strict nature of it but on average it is superior. Also do consider the server difference here, on average on KR you get higher resistance. If you're region-capped in SEA, NA or EU, your average quality of practice may drop immensely.
Q: We’ve heard that progamers regularly go through immense practice schedules. How long do you practice on average? -Progamers all live in dorms close to the practice house. We get up at 10:30, and get to the practice house after breakfast at around 11. Because of this, we wait till 3pm before eating lunch. From 4pm-8pm, we continue practicing, and then it’s dinner time. Players on the A team have free time after this, and we can choose to practice or not, but most people will stay to practice until 11pm. As someone who's been in a KeSPA house I can confirm that this is basically what it looks like, I've been training like this too.
To add to the mouse sense story, when I got to Korea basically everyone were using low sensitivities and moving their arms alot. On screen it looked amazing. It would have been useful to adapt to earlier. So now as the reader you can make a choice - you can try 500-800 dpi for example. Or you can ignore it and keep on enjoying the games. Maybe your current approach is the best for you.
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On December 26 2014 01:05 Liquid`Snute wrote: Support & infrastructure. A better skilled player will have a much easier time pointing out your mistakes than you will have with a hit & miss process ... but a lot of the time you don't have the privilege of having a game teacher or multiple top level peers. In EU for example there are no team houses where everybody's basically 2000+ aligulac rated, so improving is a lot more tedious and less lefficient by nature in EU when compared with KR. Sure there's Skype and stuff but Korea has proven time and time again that KR team house approach = pretty good. Yes there are drop-outs due to the strict nature of it but on average it is superior. Also do consider the server difference here, on average on KR you get higher resistance. If you're region-capped in SEA, NA or EU, your average quality of practice may drop immensely.
Without team houses outside of Korea to you see a way to build that support and infrastructure not only for pros who are on a team but for players who are trying to break out and make it to the professional level.
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United States32480 Posts
then there's ppl like taeja who complain that wrist problems stop him from practicing, goes on to play LoL and HearthStone anyway, gets 4th at Blizzcon
be talented > practice smart > practice hard
ideally do all
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