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Johto4736 Posts
Technically we could, in a more practical way we would need to find someone willing to do it though. How about you being that person?
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I am in the process of updating a lot of the info on the BW Wiki. This is what I'm thinking right now:
Attack speed should definitely be calculated in per second. This would be game speed * attack speed / 1000, where game speed is the delay between logical frames in ms. So for Fastest, on say the Marine, it would be 42 * 15 / 1000 = 0.63.
We should also use Fastest speed for all time-related things instead of normal, such as build time. For the Barracks, the Build Time would actually be 50.4 (rounded down to 50) seconds instead of 80 seconds. The way this is calculated is by build time * game speed / 1000.
Finally, I think Movement speed should be measured in cells per second, like SC2 is, so that it's a familiar number that people will understand. This would be calculated like speed * 1000 / game speed / cell size. So for Fastest speed, plugging in all the numbers for say the Marine, we do 4 * 1000 / 42 / 32 = 2.976 cells per second.
An alternative method for speed would just be pixels per second, which would be 4 * 1000 / 42 = 95.238
I'm already making some smaller edits and I'd be willing to make these changes for every single unit on the wiki.
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Johto4736 Posts
On August 10 2016 06:43 Templarfreak wrote: I am in the process of updating a lot of the info on the BW Wiki. This is what I'm thinking right now:
Attack speed should definitely be calculated in per second. This would be game speed * attack speed / 1000, where game speed is the delay between logical frames in ms. So for Fastest, on say the Marine, it would be 42 * 15 / 1000 = 0.63.
We should also use Fastest speed for all time-related things instead of normal, such as build time. For the Barracks, the Build Time would actually be 50.4 (rounded down to 50) seconds instead of 80 seconds. The way this is calculated is by build time * game speed / 1000.
Finally, I think Movement speed should be measured in cells per second, like SC2 is, so that it's a familiar number that people will understand. This would be calculated like speed * 1000 / game speed / cell size. So for Fastest speed, plugging in all the numbers for say the Marine, we do 4 * 1000 / 42 / 32 = 2.976 cells per second.
An alternative method for speed would just be pixels per second, which would be 4 * 1000 / 42 = 95.238
I'm already making some smaller edits and I'd be willing to make these changes for every single unit on the wiki. Possibly having both the normal speed and the fastest speed times would be worth it?
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On August 10 2016 06:58 FO-nTTaX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2016 06:43 Templarfreak wrote: I am in the process of updating a lot of the info on the BW Wiki. This is what I'm thinking right now:
Attack speed should definitely be calculated in per second. This would be game speed * attack speed / 1000, where game speed is the delay between logical frames in ms. So for Fastest, on say the Marine, it would be 42 * 15 / 1000 = 0.63.
We should also use Fastest speed for all time-related things instead of normal, such as build time. For the Barracks, the Build Time would actually be 50.4 (rounded down to 50) seconds instead of 80 seconds. The way this is calculated is by build time * game speed / 1000.
Finally, I think Movement speed should be measured in cells per second, like SC2 is, so that it's a familiar number that people will understand. This would be calculated like speed * 1000 / game speed / cell size. So for Fastest speed, plugging in all the numbers for say the Marine, we do 4 * 1000 / 42 / 32 = 2.976 cells per second.
An alternative method for speed would just be pixels per second, which would be 4 * 1000 / 42 = 95.238
I'm already making some smaller edits and I'd be willing to make these changes for every single unit on the wiki. Possibly having both the normal speed and the fastest speed times would be worth it?
That would get cluttered and/or complicated unless you have a really good setup in mind. What is the purpose of having Normal speed anyway? It's not going to be the right information that people are looking for 90% of the time. The raw values are more useful for anyone else too (like AI programmers), like 1,200 for Barracks or 360 for Marines. And as for attack and movement speed, there'd still be a page dedicated to the raw values that would be linked back to, since the raw values do still have some use. I just think having the values adjusted for Fastest speed on the face of articles is more useful and quicker to access for the majority of people since the majority of people are probably looking it up for competitive purposes and thus would be playing on Fastest.
EDIT: Here is how I think the setup for the Unit Infobox should be so far: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Template:Infobox_unitex
I've added some new sections and copied the way the SC2 Liquipedia shows hotkeys in the infobox.
The Talk page contains some extra comments.
EDIT2: Okay, I'm back. Do I have an okay to go here for these changes?
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France1887 Posts
The normal speed has the advantage of being round numbers and exact. If you write that a Barracks is built in 50 seconds, you lose precision. I know that for the SC2 wiki, we use Fastest speed timings, but it's something that I'd like to change at some point.
My only worry is that you'll start this, probably alone, and be discouraged at some point and leave the wiki with time values at different speeds depending on the page. I'd like you to make a list of all the pages that you'll need to change, because it's not just the units and buildings pages (not just in the infobox, but also in the article body), it's abilities pages, statistics pages, etc. so that you take the measure of the task ahead of you.
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On August 10 2016 22:27 ChapatiyaqPTSM wrote: The normal speed has the advantage of being round numbers and exact. If you write that a Barracks is built in 50 seconds, you lose precision. I know that for the SC2 wiki, we use Fastest speed timings, but it's something that I'd like to change at some point.
My only worry is that you'll start this, probably alone, and be discouraged at some point and leave the wiki with time values at different speeds depending on the page. I'd like you to make a list of all the pages that you'll need to change, because it's not just the units and buildings pages (not just in the infobox, but also in the article body), it's abilities pages, statistics pages, etc. so that you take the measure of the task ahead of you.
You are mistaken in that advantage. It is not exact, actually. The most exact value you can get is directly getting the values from the DAT/IScript files, which are based off of logical frames. A Marine takes 360 logical frames to build and how fast those logical frames are adjusted are based on the Game speed. So on Normal, you have 360 * 67 / 1000 = exactly 24.12 seconds in real time on normal game speed. No more, no less. On fastest, it is 360 * 42 / 1000 = exactly 15.12 seconds in real time. They are not perfectly rounded numbers nor are they more accurate than calculating with different game speeds. Since 90% of players will be playing on Fastest, it is only natural that we use fastest speed on the wiki(s). Especially for SC2, given that the values you see in-game when you start the game on Faster speed are exactly how long it takes on that game speed (Since LotV has converted it's time display to display the proper times on the proper game speed instead of the times for Normal being shown on every game speed).
Considering I'm already knocking out most of the hard stuff I intend to do, it will be EZ-PZ to convert all the time displays to the right numbers. I've already got a huge list of movement speed on fastest speed for every single unit, including the Broodling, Scarab, and Interceptor, and getting the duration for all abilities, research times, and etc, won't be too much trouble either considering I can view all the data and can easily convert it to real time using that same formula (time * game speed / 1000)
I've been working on the Ability template right now and am getting fairly close to being done with it. You can check my changes once I submit it. Here is the code so far, though:
+ Show Spoiler +{{#if:{{{range|}}}| {{#if:{{{radius|}}}| {{#if:{{{duration|}}}| <div>'''Range:''' {{{range|}}} '''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}}</div>'''Duration:''' {{{duration|}}} |<div>'''Range:''' {{{range|}}} '''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}}</div>}} |{{#if:{{{duration|}}}| <div>'''Range:''' {{{range|}}} '''Duration:''' {{{duration|}}}</div> |}} }} |{{#if:{{{radius|}}}| {{#if:{{{duration|}}}| <div>'''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}} '''Duration:''' {{{duration|}}}</div> |<div>'''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}}</div>}} |}} }}
EDIT: Changes to Ability Template has been submitted.
Just realized, maybe there should be DPS vs Ground and DPS vs Air, with their respective bonuses, too?
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France1887 Posts
On August 10 2016 23:52 Templarfreak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2016 22:27 ChapatiyaqPTSM wrote: The normal speed has the advantage of being round numbers and exact. If you write that a Barracks is built in 50 seconds, you lose precision. I know that for the SC2 wiki, we use Fastest speed timings, but it's something that I'd like to change at some point.
My only worry is that you'll start this, probably alone, and be discouraged at some point and leave the wiki with time values at different speeds depending on the page. I'd like you to make a list of all the pages that you'll need to change, because it's not just the units and buildings pages (not just in the infobox, but also in the article body), it's abilities pages, statistics pages, etc. so that you take the measure of the task ahead of you. You are mistaken in that advantage. It is not exact, actually. The most exact value you can get is directly getting the values from the DAT/IScript files, which are based off of logical frames. A Marine takes 360 logical frames to build and how fast those logical frames are adjusted are based on the Game speed. So on Normal, you have 360 * 67 / 1000 = exactly 24.12 seconds in real time on normal game speed. No more, no less. On fastest, it is 360 * 42 / 1000 = exactly 15.12 seconds in real time. They are not perfectly rounded numbers nor are they more accurate than calculating with different game speeds. Since 90% of players will be playing on Fastest, it is only naturally that we use fastest speed on the wiki(s). Especially for SC2, given that the values you see in-game when you start the game on Faster speed are exactly how long it takes on that game speed (Since LotV has converted it's time display to display the proper times on the proper game speed instead of the times for Normal being shown on every game speed). Considering I'm already knocking out most of the hard stuff I intend to do, it will be EZ-PZ to convert all the time displays to the right numbers. I've already got a huge list of movement speed on fastest speed for every single unit, including the Broodling, Scarab, and Interceptor, and getting the duration for all abilities, research times, and etc, won't be too much trouble either considering I can view all the data and can easily convert it to real time using that same formula (time * game speed / 1000) I've been working on the Ability template right now and am getting fairly close to being done with it. You can check my changes once I submit it. Here is the code so far, though: + Show Spoiler +{{#if:{{{range|}}}| {{#if:{{{radius|}}}| {{#if:{{{duration|}}}| '''Range:''' {{{range|}}} '''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}} '''Duration:''' {{{duration|}}} | '''Range:''' {{{range|}}} '''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}} }} |{{#if:{{{duration|}}}| '''Range:''' {{{range|}}} '''Duration:''' {{{duration|}}} |}} }} |{{#if:{{{radius|}}}| {{#if:{{{duration|}}}| '''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}} '''Duration:''' {{{duration|}}} | '''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}} }} |}} }} EDIT: Changes to Ability Template has been submitted. Just realized, maybe there should be DPS vs Ground and DPS vs Air, with their respective bonuses, too? Ok, my bad then :x
About SC2, what I meant is that I agree that it should be like the faster speed, but that what we show are rounded values, when ideally I'd like them to be more precise.Like blink research doesn't take 121 seconds but 170/1.4 = almost 121.4 seconds (I know the 1.4 ratio is not always true, it's a target value, and the engine tries to be as close as it can to this value)
To be honest, I'm ok with the change, but I don't feel comfortable taking any decision about the Brood War wiki. I know you're eager to start working on it, but I hope this change will be accepted by others as well.
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On August 11 2016 00:45 ChapatiyaqPTSM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2016 23:52 Templarfreak wrote:On August 10 2016 22:27 ChapatiyaqPTSM wrote: The normal speed has the advantage of being round numbers and exact. If you write that a Barracks is built in 50 seconds, you lose precision. I know that for the SC2 wiki, we use Fastest speed timings, but it's something that I'd like to change at some point.
My only worry is that you'll start this, probably alone, and be discouraged at some point and leave the wiki with time values at different speeds depending on the page. I'd like you to make a list of all the pages that you'll need to change, because it's not just the units and buildings pages (not just in the infobox, but also in the article body), it's abilities pages, statistics pages, etc. so that you take the measure of the task ahead of you. You are mistaken in that advantage. It is not exact, actually. The most exact value you can get is directly getting the values from the DAT/IScript files, which are based off of logical frames. A Marine takes 360 logical frames to build and how fast those logical frames are adjusted are based on the Game speed. So on Normal, you have 360 * 67 / 1000 = exactly 24.12 seconds in real time on normal game speed. No more, no less. On fastest, it is 360 * 42 / 1000 = exactly 15.12 seconds in real time. They are not perfectly rounded numbers nor are they more accurate than calculating with different game speeds. Since 90% of players will be playing on Fastest, it is only naturally that we use fastest speed on the wiki(s). Especially for SC2, given that the values you see in-game when you start the game on Faster speed are exactly how long it takes on that game speed (Since LotV has converted it's time display to display the proper times on the proper game speed instead of the times for Normal being shown on every game speed). Considering I'm already knocking out most of the hard stuff I intend to do, it will be EZ-PZ to convert all the time displays to the right numbers. I've already got a huge list of movement speed on fastest speed for every single unit, including the Broodling, Scarab, and Interceptor, and getting the duration for all abilities, research times, and etc, won't be too much trouble either considering I can view all the data and can easily convert it to real time using that same formula (time * game speed / 1000) I've been working on the Ability template right now and am getting fairly close to being done with it. You can check my changes once I submit it. Here is the code so far, though: + Show Spoiler +{{#if:{{{range|}}}| {{#if:{{{radius|}}}| {{#if:{{{duration|}}}| <div>'''Range:''' {{{range|}}} '''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}}</div>'''Duration:''' {{{duration|}}} |<div>'''Range:''' {{{range|}}} '''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}}</div>}} |{{#if:{{{duration|}}}| <div>'''Range:''' {{{range|}}} '''Duration:''' {{{duration|}}}</div> |}} }} |{{#if:{{{radius|}}}| {{#if:{{{duration|}}}| <div>'''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}} '''Duration:''' {{{duration|}}}</div> |<div>'''Effect-Radius:''' {{{radius|}}}</div>}} |}} }} EDIT: Changes to Ability Template has been submitted. Just realized, maybe there should be DPS vs Ground and DPS vs Air, with their respective bonuses, too? Ok, my bad then :x About SC2, what I meant is that I agree that it should be like the faster speed, but that what we show are rounded values, when ideally I'd like them to be more precise.Like blink research doesn't take 121 seconds but 170/1.4 = almost 121.4 seconds (I know the 1.4 ratio is not always true, it's a target value, and the engine tries to be as close as it can to this value) To be honest, I'm ok with the change, but I don't feel comfortable taking any decision about the Brood War wiki. I know you're eager to start working on it, but I hope this change will be accepted by others as well.
I have already gotten an O-K from someone on the Wiki (prech) and about 3 people in the IRC chat commented about it and seemed okay with it. I do agree though. This will probably be another day or so before enough people give me the O-K to make me comfortable with changing the time frames for every single unit and upgrade, just to be sure everyone is on page and okay with it.
I made some edits to the Marine to demonstrate how the final product would look.
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Johto4736 Posts
If prech says it is ok then by all means go for it. prech is basically the head of the Brood War wiki
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Alright, I'd say I'm like half-way done with preparations and editing the templates to include more information then it's off to editing each unit, upgrade, and ability.
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I've made some more edits across a few more units because they made me add new functionality to the template, such as on the Ghost.
For the Siege Tank, I'm thinking I should include splash in some way in the infobox but I don't want it to get too cluttered. Maybe as a completely separate infobox that can go just below the unit infobox?
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I've found false information just now. On JDM64's page (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/counterstrike/Jdm64/Results#Detailed_Results), it states that he participated in ELeague Season 1. This needs revision, since he was not part of the line up that participated versus Faze.
Source: http://www.hltv.org/match/2303422-faze-clg-eleague-season-1\
Please have a policy that enforces and promotes a strong use of sources.
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Hyrule18768 Posts
it's a wiki, you know you can edit it yourself, right?
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Sweden5553 Posts
On August 15 2016 15:21 nunchaku- wrote:I've found false information just now. On JDM64's page (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/counterstrike/Jdm64/Results#Detailed_Results), it states that he participated in ELeague Season 1. This needs revision, since he was not part of the line up that participated versus Faze. Source: http://www.hltv.org/match/2303422-faze-clg-eleague-season-1\Please have a policy that enforces and promotes a strong use of sources.
He was part of CLG for most of ELEAGUE Season 1, no?
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Johto4736 Posts
yeah, that's why it is listed as his result
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United States110 Posts
On August 15 2016 15:21 nunchaku- wrote:I've found false information just now. On JDM64's page (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/counterstrike/Jdm64/Results#Detailed_Results), it states that he participated in ELeague Season 1. This needs revision, since he was not part of the line up that participated versus Faze. Source: http://www.hltv.org/match/2303422-faze-clg-eleague-season-1\Please have a policy that enforces and promotes a strong use of sources.
As mentioned above, this is not false information - Josh played for CLG in 12/15 of the matches they played at ELEAGUE - far above the fuzzy requirement of 50%.
If you feel our sourcing policy is weak (it isn't), there is no better way to change that than contributing yourself.
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Hi, I'm watching the liquipedia for CSGO using OPERA kinda broken:
+ Show Spoiler +
The liquipedia for SC2, BW, smash, Heroes and overwatch all are good for me.
The one for CSGO is the only one I see broken.
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Johto4736 Posts
Clear your cache, it's a broken cache in your browser.
Firefox / Safari: Hold Shift while clicking Reload, or press either Ctrl-F5 or Ctrl-R (⌘-R on a Mac) Google Chrome: Press Ctrl-Shift-R (⌘-Shift-R on a Mac) Internet Explorer: Hold Ctrl while clicking Refresh, or press Ctrl-F5 Opera: Clear the cache in Tools → Preferences
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On October 02 2016 08:11 FO-nTTaX wrote: Clear your cache, it's a broken cache in your browser.
Firefox / Safari: Hold Shift while clicking Reload, or press either Ctrl-F5 or Ctrl-R (⌘-R on a Mac) Google Chrome: Press Ctrl-Shift-R (⌘-Shift-R on a Mac) Internet Explorer: Hold Ctrl while clicking Refresh, or press Ctrl-F5 Opera: Clear the cache in Tools → Preferences
I'm using Opera cleared the cache from the beginning of time, and nothing changed with the wiki page.
later also cleared the cookies, and no changes.
With internet explorer seems fine
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