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The thread title is the name of the extension mod Channel name: Bareleon sc2 mod
Premise:
I thought WoL was a great template for sc2 with some obvious problems. Some problems WoL and Hots (and some from lotv) had were: mech wasn't viable, Collo, Oracles, Photon Overcharge, Swarm hosts, no lurkers, widow mines, too many units moved too fast, lack of good aoe on the ground for terran for light units, lack of a solid gateway unit for toss, tempests, 10 mineral interceptors, and other annoying/frustrating things
This mod blends WoL and lotv instead of hots and lotv. I used the lotv extension mod so I dont know how to make it so resources and worker count is also WoL but I think it will be cool to see how a WoL/lotv blend will work here.
I did do some buffs where needed. Let's see what SC2 could have been if all the above things weren't in the game but kept some changes from lotv. Read below for the changes. I will be in the lobby chat for it a lot tonight if anyone wants to play with me. Gold toss and zerg and silver as terran. I hope we can get some high level players to play it.
Terran:
-Banshee: Removed the move speed upgrade. -Siege Tank: Siege mode back as an upgrade. Cost reduced from 150/150 to 125/125 and reduced research time by 10 seconds. -Marauder: Reverted back to WoL and hots -Widowmine: Removed -Medivac: speed boost upgrade removed and increased base movement speed from 2.5 to 2.85. -Liberator: Removed -Battlecrusier Tactical Jump removed -Reaper: Reduced movement speed and removed their ability.
Protoss:
-Phoenix: Anion Pulse Crystals: Increases their attack range by 1 -Oracle: Removed pulsar beam and revelation -Mothership core: Removed -Tempest: Removed -Colossus: Slightly reduced attack speed -Carrier: Interceptor cost 25 minerals -Adept: Removed their shade. -Sentry: FF time decreased from 11 to 7 sec and in editor numbers it is 15 to 11 sec
Zerg:
-Queen: Reduce ground attack range by 1 (back to 5) and air attack range by 1 (back to 7). -Ravager: Removed -Swarm Host: Removed -Muta: Revert movement speed buff -Viper: Abduct removed
Let me know what you think after you played it.
This is not my big mod I've been working on btw.
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Mod sounds very fun.
Tank Siege via upgrade is so primitive though. What overly powerful advantages of siege tank are you trying to avoid?
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On June 03 2017 08:20 WeddingEpisode wrote: Mod sounds very fun.
Tank Siege via upgrade is so primitive though. What overly powerful advantages of siege tank are you trying to avoid?
Current LotV siege tank openers kills Protosses who open with blink. This change might slightly nerf fast tank pushes in PvT
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This is not my big mod I've been working on btw. Then what is the point of this right now? I mean you remove a lot, etc. But i don't see a lot of interesting redesigns or anything here. It's basically just a "what if" ?
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With the removal of ravagers and keeping the buffed damage and HP of the tank, I dont want a siege timing to be OP vs zerg. Less of an issue vs protoss but with the buffed tank it could make the 1-1-1 timing quite strong.
But I had to reduce the cost and research time of siege mode so a zerg or protoss timing attack wouldnt be gg so fast.
Also another reason I brought it back was cause of nostalgia lol.
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Yeah, if there would be a ladder. i would probably pick the game up again with these changes. Swap the Thor for Goliaths and it would be perfect.
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On June 03 2017 08:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: Then what is the point of this right now? I mean you remove a lot, etc. But i don't see a lot of interesting redesigns or anything here. It's basically just a "what if" ?
I dont think blizzard will ever make huge changes to the game like the mod I am working on (but in case by the off chance they do they will have some ideas :D) and I think with changes to the current game it can make the game really fun to play while not making it boring to watch.
I know not everyone thinks the current game we have right now is bad or annoying or not fun or what ever, I just wanted to see if I can perfect the WoL template.
Less focus on worker harassment, more tactical base like WoL, with the interceptor cost back to 25, the tempest gone, the recently nerfed VR and the nerfed collo attack speed I hope we can prevent toss from playing like WoL and stalling to get that one perfect ball and a-move lol.
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Here is some insight into a lot of the changes:
WoL was more fun imo because less focus on worker harassment and less units moved so fast so it was more tactical base instead of "catch me if you can" game play. That's why I removed the banshee speed upgrade, reverted the muta speed buff, and removed pulsar beam and the medivac speed boost. Also all those things really made the game annoying to play.
Widowmines was another example of annoyance plus they seemed redundant to the tank and hellbat. Granted I may need to bring back the liberator if mutas become too much again in tvz but remove its atg mode. It was nice that blizzard at least tried some of these but in the end it made the game too annoying to play.
Ravagers and abduct both made mech play hard. But with ravagers removed I had to reduce the time forcefields stayed on the map for. Colossus was always boring to me and it encouraged stalling to get that one perfect ball. I reverted the interceptor cost nerf and with the removal of the tempest and the recently nerfed VR the hope is toss wont stall and get that one perfect sky ball. Plus tempests also made mech play hard.
With the queen ground attack range buff there were a lot of complaints that players cant harass zerg as easily and with slower air units the air attack range buff might have been too much.
With the marauder "buff" I think we can all agree watching those GM terran players (and lower level players like me) show off their micro skills with mmm is fun and I do think with the Adept, disrupters and lurkers we can try to revert the nerf they got
Revelation on the oracles made it too easy to spot lurkers and to spy on the opponent's army. I mean sure this means they will have tons of energy for stasis wards now but lets be real, they are rarely used as is :D
Anion Pulse Crystals had to reduce the bonus by 1 because muta play in zvp would be non-existent since I reverted their speed buff.
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Join channel Bareleon sc2 mod. I am on now.
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Funny. I think phoenix upgrade (5+2) should be removed and give phoenix the WOL 6 range.
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why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game.
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How "fun" it must be to play Protoss in this mod..
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How come theres all these small balance mods lately that are so favorable for a single race? And then dont do any design changes which is the part most people seem to prefer/discuss or want? Not enough utility changes as with most fanmods is my biggest gripe.
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Didn't you forget something? How is Protoss supposed to defend itself early game?
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Russian Federation421 Posts
How exactly does Zerg play against mech? All-in every game?
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On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game.
Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech.
I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is.
Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of?
If so, they succeeded.
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On June 03 2017 21:49 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game. Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech. I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is. Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of? If so, they succeeded.
People use the built-in editor and make custom mods they enjoy playing! How horrible! I don't understand what the point of hating these people is either.
You make it sound like balancing an RTS is hard, but it is actually easier than you think.
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A mod like that is not needed. What SC2 needs is clever redesign of stuff in a progressive fashion. WOL was not the holy grail but a beta. WOL, however, is a good foundation for the actual redesign which was not approached with this mod.
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On June 03 2017 21:56 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 21:49 reneg wrote:On June 03 2017 15:34 dalaiisc2 wrote: why is zerg the only race, that just got nerfs?
without ravager, sentry timings are again really powerfull. bills are the only thing, that zerg can do against FF. without them, you just can watch, how your army dies.. and ravagers were never a problem against mech. swarmhosts are the only problem, mech has atm against zerg. same with abduct.where is the problem with abduct? how do you wanna fight mass air armies without it?
to remove abilities/units from the game is just a cheap way out. its like "i dont have any idea how to balance them, so i removed them". how do you wanna break siegelines before broodlords without swarmhosts? as a zerg, you are forced to turtle to 4-5 base, play a 20min+ game and hope, that they dont kill your broods, or even your base, because broods are so fucking slow.
i appreciate the effort and thoughts, guys like you put into these changes, BUT at the same time, im really happy, that the actuall design/balance team dont do such drastic changes to the game. Because for some reason, the teams who make these mods keep thinking that if they take away the things that can beat their play style. It's just like avilo's, where he nerfed everything that beats mech. I honestly don't understand what all the points of these various mods is. Is it to show us that teams of professional developers can do a better job at balancing video games than random guys who only have their own experiences to go off of? If so, they succeeded. People use the built-in editor and make custom mods they enjoy playing! How horrible! I don't understand what the point of hating these people is either. You make it sound like balancing an RTS is hard, but it is actually easier than you think.
"It's easier than you think"
Which results in the following:
This mod:
-Oracle: Removed pulsar beam and revelation -Mothership core: Removed -Adept: Removed their shade. -Muta: Revert movement speed buff -Viper: Abduct removed
Each one of those items addresses an issue - sure - but the rest of the changes do not help what these items were added to address.
Let's break it down:
Mothership core: added to give protoss more staying power in the early game. the way gateway units had been historically balanced, they needed to be a little bit weaker (or warp proxy pylon into warp gate would be too OP), so they are relatively crappy to begin with. Now, since they're crappy, they needed something to help stave off early pressure. Enter: the sentry. Forcefielding ramps helped all throughout WoL.
As time went on, it became a massive investment to be basically required to pump out 2-3 sentries to make sure you stayed safe, and the investment in one mothership core (for a limited amount of photon overcharges, and some mobile defense) addressed.
By just removing it from the game, you essentially tell protoss they won't be allowed to keep up, and prepare to be all-in'd in the first five minutes of every single game.
Adept: You basically take the strength of the adept (mobility) and destroy it. So now it's a slow, low DPS marine (that doesn't shoot up), and has shorter range.
There is basically zero reason to make the adept now. While i realize that shade can be an *extremely* frustrating ability to go up against, it really is the core component that the adept is balanced around. If you remove shade, you would need to do something like increase range, or speed, or DPS, or something. You're basically taking away the backbone of the protoss army, and forcing them to run in with a WOL army (stalker zealot), vs. a LotV Terran army (Widow mines).
Muta: the speed buffs are there to basically allow for zerg to have real mobility in air. Medivacs have boost, Protoss has oracles & phoenix, it makes sense to allow for something with speed to come out of Z. Otherwise they'll be pieced apart slowly.
Viper Abduct: this is one of the few things that really allows a zerg player to catch up to a T or P who is sitting around making capital ships. Abduct also allows for some additional breaking of siege lines. It basically forces the other side to be a little careful with their units, and not leave them in a place where they are completely exposed. Without abilities like abduct, breaking those siege lines becomes extremely difficult.
Sure, blinding cloud still exists, but abduct is extremely useful in helping close that gap.
So, in summary, you SAY things like, "Balancing isn't that hard" - but then we get things like the attached, which don't seem to be that thought out for downstream effects that would have an important impact on the game.
You can't just think "I don't like the way this ability is used" - you have to think about the context with which it was introduced into the game, the specific issues it's trying to address, and how old abilities (untouched by a mod like this) would be overpowered, since those were buffed / adjusted to work in concert with the (now removed) abilities.
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I just realized that I'd actually love playing WoL. Even HotS. SC2 became so superfast, I don't bother playing.
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