On June 15 2017 02:28 ninazerg wrote: I think the implications (or perceived implications) in the term "social justice warriors" will likely take the conversation into waters that we don't wish to sail. It would be better to avoid labeling each other altogether and focus on the facts.
You're probably right, in that we don't want to sail there. But I call em as I see em. And to me and some other posters here, it looks to be the case that we got some "warriors" on our hand. And maybe that is the real problem -- not that Scan is winning all the tournaments. It's just an idea.
I agree so much with ninazerg - COMPROMISE is the key word here. If there is no compromise, both sides loses. And that's exactly what happened. It was only in organizer's and Scan's power to change the course of action. Had Scan participated every 2nd tournament, he could have gotten more minerals out of it in the long term, he would have became a hero and would be seen as a decent man. Had organizers bow down to the demands, he would be a happy man and there would be nothing but positive feedback. PRIDE is what denied it in the 2nd case.
On June 15 2017 02:10 BisuDagger wrote: I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you.
So, to be totally honest, if the scenario had been that viewership and participation dropped off to where it didnt make sense... I almost certainly would have changed it to be foreign only (or maybe Korean only, who knows). Like, I went through this with my other tournaments in other games. I am *happy* to adjust stuff if I think its appropriate to do so.
Unfortunately, what happened was that people just complained constantly and were assholes. When that happens, my inclination is to dig in on my position OR to just say "you know what, fuck you guys".
It's not really fair of you to say that now because that's what we were telling you. If you had tell us: "don't come and if there are less than 10 or 8 players it will be foreigner one week and the other free for all", i can assure you that we wouldn't have participated and things would be all fine (because almost all participants are players who were "mad"). But you didn't tell us that and just told us "That's my money i do what i want"...
PS : Can you ban/mod CecileSunkure, he is clearly out of hid mind and the discussion is way too complex for him.
On June 15 2017 02:34 Bonyth wrote: I agree so much with ninazerg - COMPROMISE is the key word here. If there is no compromise, both sides loses. And that's exactly what happened. It was only in organizer's and Scan's power to change the course of action. Had Scan participated every 2nd tournament, he could have gotten more minerals out of it in the long term, he would have became a hero and a decent man. Had organizers bow down to the demands, he would be a happy man and there would be nothing but positive feedback. PRIDE is what denied it in the 2nd case.
Well, pride and the fact that it was, you know.. *my* money being paid out.
Anyway, that's all from me. I said my 2c - you can all continue on with your lively debate
On June 15 2017 02:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: The point of my post was to point out the ridiculousness of your post (and this argument in general) and put a stop to it before it spreads any further. If you can't assess the situation of the discussion here and come up with something meaningful to say, then you shouldn't post at all.
But you didn't explain why any of it was ridiculous. Did I say something factually wrong? Or was an argument incorrect? Why are you saying it's not helpful, or that I can't assess the situation?
I've already explained all my reasons in this thread, and my last post had a point I'm pretty sure is valid: The butthurt posters in here trying to ban people aren't going to listen to anything other than carefully crafted troll posts. The point even had a backup argument: lots of reasonable posters have already come in here pointing out in detail why banning certain people is silly, and how ridiculous this whole thing is -- so clearly these angry posters in here are just not listening to the reason. There's no response at all. Not even a simple "I get your points, but I disagree for this reason" kind of thing. Nothing.
And you know what? I actually got a lot of good feedback from that trollish style right here in this thread. I get zero good feedback for the kind of post I'm writing right now. Nobody is applauding my arguments, or PMing me thanking me for expressing my opinion. When I posted a giant troll post, nobody called me ignorant. When I write posts like these all my reasonable points are ignored. I'm called ignorant, or stupid, or people point out how I'm "not smart". People ask for mods to ban me when I write out my arguments.
I admit, my post was completely loaded and very disagreeable. But that doesn't mean what I said was incorrect, or un-called for. I mean, this is a super heated thread both ways.
Edit: Look here's an example. Earlier in this thread I had a very reasonable, but brief discussion with Kenzy, and I calmly explained my reasoning. But then no response. Just an example on how one of my reasonable points were ignored. There are many other posts like this from many other posters just ignored.
And here is the eventual response:
On June 15 2017 02:35 KenZy wrote: PS : Can you ban/mod CecileSunkure, he is clearly out of hid mind and the discussion is way too complex for him.
These guys aren't responding to any of the arguments that point out how silly the thread is. Instead they focus on targeting tournament organizers, appealing to "loyalty" or "old members", ask to ban specific people when they don't get their way, etc.
Edit Edit: Here 2pac. I've looked up the definition of social justice on google, first result is:
justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society
Is this not *exactly* what these guys here want? They want to ban Scan or "Koreans" in order to have a more "fair" tournament? As in spreading the prize money around.
And by that definition, I am absolutely not performing social justice here in this thread.
The topic of conversation is "Should we ban Koreans from tournaments?" Generally speaking, I don't think we should ban Koreans from tournaments. Should there be tournaments for foreigners only, to find out who the best foreigner is? Sure, why not? I'm all for that. The thread title seems as if you guys want to ban Koreans from all foreigner created and funded tournaments. As previously discussed, that's solely up to the tournament organizers.
Woah it's like crazy that I have a video for this, no?
No it's actually not crazy! Cause... this has been going on for months.
"What do the TO's want" I've answered it 50000000 times. "They should make changes" I am making some small changes to my tour which I've been talking to Trutacz about, not registration though, that stays open.
Also I find it funny I've posted i think 2-3 times and everyone just ignores me.
Whatevs, I'm tired of you all fighting over $100 tournaments. Gonna be fun when real $$$ hits this scene, if it ever does.
(Btw the rule about HAY Registration status in that video doesn't apply here. Only applies to people talking in the HAY Thread/HAY Chat)
On June 15 2017 02:31 2Pacalypse- wrote: The point of my post was to point out the ridiculousness of your post (and this argument in general) and put a stop to it before it spreads any further. If you can't assess the situation of the discussion here and come up with something meaningful to say, then you shouldn't post at all.
But you didn't explain why any of it was ridiculous. Did I say something factually wrong? Or was an argument incorrect? Why are you saying it's not helpful, or that I can't assess the situation?
I've already explained all my reasons in this thread, and my last post had a point I'm pretty sure is valid: The butthurt posters in here trying to ban people aren't going to listen to anything other than carefully crafted troll posts. The point even had a backup argument: lots of reasonable posters have already come in here pointing out in detail why banning certain people is silly, and how ridiculous this whole thing is -- so clearly these angry posters in here are just not listening to the reason.
And you know what? I actually got a lot of good feedback from that trollish style right here in this thread.
I admit, my post was completely loaded and very disagreeable. But that doesn't mean what I said was incorrect, or un-called for. I mean, this is a super heated thread both ways.
Edit: Look here's an example. Earlier in this thread I had a very reasonable, but brief discussion with Kenzy, and I calmly explained my reasoning. But then no response. Just an example on how one of my reasonable points were ignored. There are many other posts like this from many other posters just ignored.
On June 15 2017 02:35 KenZy wrote: PS : Can you ban/mod CecileSunkure, he is clearly out of hid mind and the discussion is way too complex for him.
These guys aren't responding to any of the arguments that point out how silly the thread is. Instead they focus on targeting tournament organizers, appealing to "loyalty" or "old members", ask to ban specific people when they don't get their way, etc.
On June 15 2017 01:47 FilthyRake wrote: If your goal is to help grow the scene, you are doing it wrong!
On June 15 2017 02:09 KenZy wrote: We have already done thousands of tournaments, and we know what's good and what isn't
No you don't. Yes there are people who are bored by Scan winning every tour who might not continue to watch the tournament and maybe these people constantly complain on the players stream so you think it is a big problem.
However you fail to see all the damage this discussion is causing. I personally stopped following the foreign scene for a long time after the same discussion took place during TLC times. I know one friend who thought the same and Baku basically also said that this discussion made him lose interest in the foreigner scene. Viewer numbers for TLC were also the highest in the beginning when Scan was still allowed to participate.
More importantly the annoying discussion has just driven the biggest sponsor away from BW. How can you or Trutaacz still say that you know what is best for the scene?
On June 15 2017 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc.
And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan.
Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way.
Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist.
And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle:
Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money.
Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out!
The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans.
Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be.
That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.
~ ~ ~
And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale.
~ ~ ~
Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW.
Tournament Rules :
Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
Koreans are not allowed.
No money is allowed.
This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers.
I hope you realize that encouraging an all-inclusive BW tournament by mocking people who want region-restricted tournaments in a really ridiculous and aggravating way is the absolute definition of Social Justice. You are essentially advocating for social justice for Scan. I mean you literally just projected your entire personality onto people who would prefer to watch non-Koreans play each other. You should probably get your own shit together before presenting yourself as secure enough to be satirical.
On June 15 2017 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote: Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc.
And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan.
Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way.
Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist.
And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle:
Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money.
Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out!
The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans.
Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be.
That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.
~ ~ ~
And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale.
~ ~ ~
Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW.
Tournament Rules :
Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
Koreans are not allowed.
No money is allowed.
This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers.
I know that you are trying to sound smart, but trust me, you're really, really, really not. It's amazing how people barely speaking their own language judge people speaking more than three, moreover on matters they obviously have no insight on. If you are talking about toxicity again, please look at your own posts. It always needs two sides to really get a shit storm rolling.
Directed @FilthyTour Orga:
Sorry I mixed you up. However, get used to people "complaining". Keep in mind those guys are not native speakers. I had similar struggles with the Russians and eOn in particular when hosting events as well. Half of what is said is meant as "matter of fact", not as "you suck and should go and die". Also, most of what they say has a basis and is very often meant to improve your efforts, even though it comes across as the opposite.
It would have been healthy for you to have things explained by someone like 2pac when it comes to the Scan-business, because that really is a chapter of its own, as you sadly had to witness first hand.
If you are to host future events involving the Europeans (unrelated to Brood War), the most crucial factor is to find better starting times, even when it's really uncomfortable to you. PDT times are really nasty, especially for the Eastern Parts of Europe - the tour start is still ok, but the longer it progresses, the faster you will finish games past midnight. (Now think of how demotivating it would be if you were someone in Moscow losing your second game at 1 am against Scan in the first round, because the grid wasn't in your favour).
For BW specifically: The modern BW scene, and this is to a large part their own fault, does not really adapt to new tour pages easily. Also, a rotation of maps and theme tours greatly improve activity from lower ranks.
What really benefits you is transparency. If you feel people complain, just issue a statement, no matter how short. People will still be talking about it, but the tone will eventually die down to a whisper.
lastly: I get that you are pissed (believe me), but pointing fingers and talking about sponsors and whatnot comes across extremely childish. You deserve more dignitiy for what you tried to do.
On June 15 2017 02:44 EndingLife wrote: The topic of conversation is "Should we ban Koreans from tournaments?" Generally speaking, I don't think we should ban Koreans from tournaments. Should there be tournaments for foreigners only, to find out who the best foreigner is? Sure, why not? I'm all for that. The thread title seems as if you guys want to ban Koreans from all foreigner created and funded tournaments. As previously discussed, that's solely up to the tournament organizers.
You didn't read what we were saying then, or didn't make any effort to understand. Because we clearly stated that we didn't want to ban Scan or Korean to all our tournaments but to have some of them for foreigners only from time to time, and we explained what we wanted that, that's all.
On June 15 2017 02:49 2Pacalypse- wrote: If you think the thread is silly, then it just goes to show you don't really understand the discussion here. Not sure if you've missed it, but you should read my earlier post here to get deeper insight on what we're discussing here (or well, *should* be discussing here ^^): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/523851-should-we-ban-koreans-from-tournaments?page=11#210
Just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't understand. The thing is, I don't think the topic is nuanced. At all.
On June 14 2017 22:15 2Pacalypse- wrote:Anyway, to stay on topic, what it boils down to is that organizers should define the goal of their tournament and then implement policies that you, as an organizer, think will help you reach that goal. You want an open tournament? Don't ban koreans/chinese. You want a "foreign"-only tournament? Ban koreans/chinese. But be careful, there are a lot of edge cases which you have to take into account. Eg. Koreans living outside Korea or foreigners living inside Korea. Also, as an organizer, you need to be clear about your intentions and provide clear explanations behind your decisions. Are you banning Koreans/Chinese because of the potential latency issues? Language barrier? Because they's simply too good? How do you even define a "foreigner'? Even when you lay down all your rules in the most clear way possible, there will still be some edge cases that you'll have to handle specially (see nongminzerg situation in TSL). I feel like schamtoo/filthy didn't do most of these things, which is very understandable. They're both new to the BW scene in this capacity, and organizing a tournament is a shit ton of work, even without dealing with these nuanced issues.
A couple points. A) Pretty sure tournament organizers are not idiots, and they have the basic capacity to understand how to exclude certain players, and what that means. B) It's their money, they can do what they want. C) Many other posters have already brought A and B up before, so you making me do it yet again makes me feel sort of silly. But it seems I have to bring in these points again, otherwise I'm labelled as unintelligent, or incapable of understanding nuance, or ignorant.
This is not me missing the nuance, but just disagreeing with it.
On June 15 2017 03:01 sertman wrote: I hope you realize that encouraging an all-inclusive BW tournament by mocking people who want region-restricted tournaments in a really ridiculous and aggravating way is the absolute definition of Social Justice. You are essentially advocating for social justice for Scan. I mean you literally just projected your entire personality onto people who would prefer to watch non-Koreans play each other. You should probably get your own shit together before presenting yourself as secure enough to be satirical.
Responded to this idea already (do you disagree with my response at all? I'm open to talk more about it):
On June 15 2017 02:36 CecilSunkure wrote: I've looked up the definition of social justice on google, first result is:
justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society
Is this not *exactly* what these guys here want? They want to ban Scan or "Koreans" in order to have a more "fair" tournament? As in spreading the prize money around.
And by that definition, I am absolutely not performing social justice here in this thread.
On June 15 2017 02:44 EndingLife wrote: The topic of conversation is "Should we ban Koreans from tournaments?" Generally speaking, I don't think we should ban Koreans from tournaments. Should there be tournaments for foreigners only, to find out who the best foreigner is? Sure, why not? I'm all for that. The thread title seems as if you guys want to ban Koreans from all foreigner created and funded tournaments. As previously discussed, that's solely up to the tournament organizers.
You didn't read what we were saying then, or didn't make any effort to understand. Because we clearly stated that we didn't want to ban Scan or Korean to all our tournaments but to have some of them for foreigners only from time to time, and we explained what we wanted that, that's all.
So then someone of the community needs to step it up. Filthy didn't create a series only for foreigners so someone else needs to do it.
Fun fact: Filthy would have done exactly this eventually if he wouldn't have been bullied out of the scene.
i understand the players frustation , as a tennis fan , i would be bored if some top 200 atp player came and won all the tournements (with some prize) in my country (which is bad for both players and viewers)