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On June 15 2017 03:07 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 02:56 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 15 2017 02:49 arb wrote: So this entire thing is because someone hosted a tourney and let Scan play? Yes. And if you disagree, you will be banned from this thread and told you don't understand the "nuance". So people who A) didnt sponsor the tourney B) didnt put anything towards the prize pool C) didnt win are all here to complain that someone else let Scan join their tourney and he won is that what im getting out of this
Yeah. And if that is your view then you will probably be told you just don't understand the thread, nuances, or problems at-hand.
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On June 15 2017 03:08 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 03:07 arb wrote:On June 15 2017 02:56 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 15 2017 02:49 arb wrote: So this entire thing is because someone hosted a tourney and let Scan play? Yes. And if you disagree, you will be banned from this thread and told you don't understand the "nuance". So people who A) didnt sponsor the tourney B) didnt put anything towards the prize pool C) didnt win are all here to complain that someone else let Scan join their tourney and he won is that what im getting out of this Yeah. And if that is your view then you will probably be told you just don't understand the thread, nuances, or problems at-hand. If they didnt put any money up or do anything towards the tournament(besides play) they shouldnt be complaining. This is the same argument i give to people who ask me why im drinking a beer for example so slow, i bought the fucking thing if i wanna pour it out without taking a drink ill do that, and usually they stop talking.
If theres something im missing then my argument is void ofc
I gather Scan is probably at a higher level than most foreigners, but he isnt ASL material either I dont think, atleast i havent seen him at least, so while he probably shouldnt be stomping on foreigners, whoevers hosting the tournament gets the final say in who they want to play in the end.
If they want to just invite Flash and he wins(which obviously he will) knowing that he's gonna win and get all the money then so be it, its no one who didnt put anything towards the tournaments right to complain about it
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On June 15 2017 03:11 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 03:08 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 15 2017 03:07 arb wrote:On June 15 2017 02:56 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 15 2017 02:49 arb wrote: So this entire thing is because someone hosted a tourney and let Scan play? Yes. And if you disagree, you will be banned from this thread and told you don't understand the "nuance". So people who A) didnt sponsor the tourney B) didnt put anything towards the prize pool C) didnt win are all here to complain that someone else let Scan join their tourney and he won is that what im getting out of this Yeah. And if that is your view then you will probably be told you just don't understand the thread, nuances, or problems at-hand. If they didnt put any money up or do anything towards the tournament(besides play) they shouldnt be complaining. This is the same argument i give to people who ask me why im drinking a beer for example so slow, i bought the fucking thing if i wanna pour it out without taking a drink ill do that, and usually they stop talking. If theres something im missing then my argument is void ofc
Well people are getting uppity because they think by banning Scan the BW community will grow. So they think the discussion has merit, because growing the BW community is a good cause. But lets be real, "growing the BW community" is just a euphemism for "getting the prize money to different players". Just like "banning koreans" is a euphemism for "banning Scan".
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On June 15 2017 03:11 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 03:08 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 15 2017 03:07 arb wrote:On June 15 2017 02:56 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 15 2017 02:49 arb wrote: So this entire thing is because someone hosted a tourney and let Scan play? Yes. And if you disagree, you will be banned from this thread and told you don't understand the "nuance". So people who A) didnt sponsor the tourney B) didnt put anything towards the prize pool C) didnt win are all here to complain that someone else let Scan join their tourney and he won is that what im getting out of this Yeah. And if that is your view then you will probably be told you just don't understand the thread, nuances, or problems at-hand. If they didnt put any money up or do anything towards the tournament(besides play) they shouldnt be complaining. This is the same argument i give to people who ask me why im drinking a beer for example so slow, i bought the fucking thing if i wanna pour it out without taking a drink ill do that, and usually they stop talking. If theres something im missing then my argument is void ofc
do you watch professional sport ? players are constantly complaining towards tournement organizer yet they dont put any money
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On June 15 2017 03:16 nomatch1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 03:11 arb wrote:On June 15 2017 03:08 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 15 2017 03:07 arb wrote:On June 15 2017 02:56 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 15 2017 02:49 arb wrote: So this entire thing is because someone hosted a tourney and let Scan play? Yes. And if you disagree, you will be banned from this thread and told you don't understand the "nuance". So people who A) didnt sponsor the tourney B) didnt put anything towards the prize pool C) didnt win are all here to complain that someone else let Scan join their tourney and he won is that what im getting out of this Yeah. And if that is your view then you will probably be told you just don't understand the thread, nuances, or problems at-hand. If they didnt put any money up or do anything towards the tournament(besides play) they shouldnt be complaining. This is the same argument i give to people who ask me why im drinking a beer for example so slow, i bought the fucking thing if i wanna pour it out without taking a drink ill do that, and usually they stop talking. If theres something im missing then my argument is void ofc do you watch professional sport ? players are constantly complaining towards tournement organizer yet they dont put any money Tournaments where they're winning more than what was it 100$? i think. Also in something that is a career not a hobby im sure.
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Apologies in advance for the unstructured rant.
To me it seems like FilthyRake and Schamtoo are inexperienced with hosting tournaments, and more specifically with hosting tournaments for a game like brood war. They never played it seriously, they're new to the scene. They don't understand how large the skill gap is, regardless of why it exists. As far as I understand, they have stressed multiple times that the goal is to host a "global" tournament. Yet, when you analyze the decisions they made in regards to the logistics of hosting such a tournament with this perspective, it doesn't make sense. I'm making some assumptions here, so feel free to correct me. As far as I understand:
1. They only advertise their tournament on English websites 2. They use a very unfavourable time for Koreans (in the middle of the night) 3. The tournament is hosted on iCCup, as opposed to Fish.
2 of these points definitively conflict with wanting to host a global tournament. The 3rd point is somewhere in between. Semi-professional korean players known to occasionally play on iCCup are far and few in between (Scan, sonstar, bishop, shinee).
They might cite the casting to be a reason for hosting it at this time, but that's no excuse. You don't have to cast the games on the same day as the tournament.
Of course, it is their tournament, they can do whatever they want. But actions and decisions, have consequences. Sometimes you have to face reality. The tournaments so far are a disaster* despite having very impressive prize pools, for which I do respect them very much! Wanting to spend your hard-earned money so other people can compete and have fun with a video game comes straight from the heart, and shows they're passionate.
* 1. Drastic drop in player base despite impressize prize pool. 2. Relatively low viewer numbers 3. Lots of negative feedback and vitriol from players/viewers 4. Already demoralizing the tournament organizers
Some suggetions:
1. Straighten your priorities. Is it really a global tournament or not? 2. Don't allow players to stream games from ro16 onwards (the games you intend to cast). 3. Listen to players/viewers 4. Listen to players/viewers or stop organizing the tournaments.
It's embarrassing seeing people throwing around baseless accusations and ad hominems. Trutacz, eonzerg, bonyth,... are not racist. They're not bullies. They're not social justice warriors. They're not stupid, illogical or dumb. It's you that's intolerant of other people's views, refusing to place yourself in their shoes.
Koreans don't constitute a race, so it's impossible to be racist against Koreans. More importantly... the fact that it's Koreans is irrelevant. In an alternative universe, it might be Belgium that developed a thriving pro-scene for brood war. To make the argument more sound, also imagine we would speak a much more difficult to learn language.
It's a pretty simple position honestly. Being born and growing up in Korea, means you reside in an environment that's more productive to learning how to play Brood War. The sole reason I'm studying Korean is to be able to understand pro-streams, pro-casters, to join a korean clan so I have the opportunity to not only play with people that are much better than me, but also listen to their advice and ask them additional questions.
Anyone that dismisses being able to understand Korean as being negligible, is someone who hasn't dedicated enough time and effort to getting good at this game. Yes it is possible to become the best player in the world, even if you don't understand korean. It's also possible in my mind to invent "a computer" from scratch without relying on knowledge provided by anyone other than yourself (Yes I'm being a little bit facetious right now, I think it's fitting here to make people realize how likely it is). The point is that you literally have to reinvent the wheel if you take this approach, which is what you will be doing if you don't understand Korean or can't learn from the best of the best.
On June 15 2017 01:39 InfCereal wrote: The most confusing this about this thread is people thinking watching videos will make you a better player.
I don't want to single you out, but it's important to me so others don't start believing this. Yes, watching solid educational content will make you a better player. Yes watching pro's play the game will make you a better player. It's so vital to becoming a good player that's it's honestly blowing my mind how you could believe otherwise.
And it doesn't stop there. Some additional factors if you live in Korea:
1. No lag issues (can even play on L1 or L2 with lowlatency hack) => This is a MAJOR one.
2. Eventually when you get really good (access to the best practice partners)
To the people that say just learn korean, getter a better connection, move to korea,.. you are delusional and living in a fantasy world. Learning/mastering a language is a multi-year effort and an enormous time-sink. Getting a better connection won't allow you to play lag-free or with lowlatency hack if you don't live in Korea. Moving to Korea is not feasible. And all of this just to have the opportunity to be able to improve at a game!
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On June 15 2017 03:27 B-royal wrote: Apologies in advance for the unstructured rant.
To me it seems like FilthyRake and Schamtoo are inexperienced with hosting tournaments, and more specifically with hosting tournaments for a game like brood war.
This is the only part of this I'm going to respond to, as I'm trying to stay out of this conversation.
I've run ~30 online tournaments, and about 10 LANs of varying sizes ($100 all the way up to $10k prize pools).
Yes, all of them were sc2 - I've run 9 BW online events at this point.
So I do have at least a little bit of experiencing hosting tournaments though not Brood War explicitly.
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I ran a series of tournaments for Heroes of the Storm that had $2500 prizepools. I've been a caster for 5 years, so I've worked with TO's from Playhem, MLG, IPL, DreamHack, Blizzard (I've hosted a BlizzCon stage).
I'm not inexperienced.
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On June 15 2017 03:01 KenZy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 02:44 EndingLife wrote: The topic of conversation is "Should we ban Koreans from tournaments?" Generally speaking, I don't think we should ban Koreans from tournaments. Should there be tournaments for foreigners only, to find out who the best foreigner is? Sure, why not? I'm all for that. The thread title seems as if you guys want to ban Koreans from all foreigner created and funded tournaments. As previously discussed, that's solely up to the tournament organizers. You didn't read what we were saying then, or didn't make any effort to understand. Because we clearly stated that we didn't want to ban Scan or Korean to all our tournaments but to have some of them for foreigners only from time to time, and we explained what we wanted that, that's all. How didn't I read or understand you when I'm agreeing with you about tournaments for foreigners only? I clearly stated above that there should be tournaments for foreigners only. This one is not one of those, as the tournament organizers have already made that decision. I'm beginning to think that there's a language barrier preventing people from understanding others.
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I think people just aren't realizing how well Scan plays compared to other foreign players. If you set up an ELO rating system or something similar and go through all the matches that have been played in tourneys, most foreign players will be ranked ~2000 and scan would be somewhere ~3000. A 3000 rated player doesn't belong in a tournament for 2000 rated players if the objective is to create a competitive tournament.
That being said, if the tournament host does not care for a competitive tournament, it is their decision to allow/disallow an ELO cap or some other form of a cutoff. But I figure, why not just skip the tournament and donate money to support Scan's stream instead Kappa
User was warned for this post
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Really some need to understand that we foreign players aren't here to seek improvement to reach higher planes of existence. We are old and play mainly for fun.
Now I read shit and it seems some people have difficulties to understand that if you are born in Harlem NY and play basketball you are more likely to be much better at it that if you were born in Loudenvielle France. To those people, please stop posting, you obviously don't have the requirements to have an opinion anywhere close to decency.
Now the difference you have between NYC and Loudenvielle is the same you have between KoreanBW and ForeignBW. Scan comes from KoreanBW, he plays competitive starcraft. We don't. This is why the gap in skill is that big not you idiotic improvement argument, because if that was true, Korean would be the best at everything obviously.
Regarding Scan, it is ok he participates from time to time after all he is more than welcome, but we are starting to see blatant abuse and that's not cool. We find that inappropriate and it is killing the fun.
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Ugh, can people stop saying garbage like "Filthy/Schamtoo are obviously inexperienced" or alluding to the idea that they don't know what they're doing? They've both run many tournaments for other games and obviously have experience. Sure, they're new to BW, but Filthy has even said himself that he would've been willing to adjust his tournament if the players weren't such douches about it. The idea is obviously to jump into the scene, get a feel for it, and get established before the boost of players occurs when Remastered comes; unfortunately, it appears that the current community isn't a fan of that for whatever reason.
This isn't the only thing by the way. I recall people complaining about their use of smash.gg to do the brackets plus map veto system, only because no other BW tournament does it that way. Obviously that's going to get on the hosts nerves as well when they're just trying something new (that I actually liked using and thought worked pretty well).
People have their own opinions on whether we should allow Koreans to participate or not and that's fine. But do we really have to directly or indirectly insult the tournament organizers as well?
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On June 15 2017 04:10 iFU.pauline wrote: Really some need to understand that we foreign players aren't here to seek improvement to reach higher planes of existence. We are old and play mainly for fun.
Now I read shit and it seems some people have difficulties to understand that if you are born in Harlem NY and play basketball you are more likely to be much better at it that if you were born in Loudenvielle France. To those people, please stop posting, you obviously don't have the requirements to have an opinion anywhere close to decency.
Now the difference you have between NYC and Loudenvielle is the same you have between KoreanBW and ForeignBW. Scan comes from KoreanBW, he plays competitive starcraft. We don't. This is why the gap in skill is that big not you idiotic improvement argument, because if that was true, Korean would be the best at everything obviously.
Regarding Scan, it is ok he participates from time to time after all he is more than welcome, but we are starting to see blatant abuse and that's not cool. We find that inappropriate and it is killing the fun.
That 100%.
Btw Scan you wanted me to answering some posts but i didn't understand clearly what was the question, can you reformulate them please ?
And what's your opinion about what pauline said ?
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On June 15 2017 04:16 GoShox wrote: Ugh, can people stop saying garbage like "Filthy/Schamtoo are obviously inexperienced" or alluding to the idea that they don't know what they're doing? They've both run many tournaments for other games and obviously have experience. Sure, they're new to BW, but Filthy has even said himself that he would've been willing to adjust his tournament if the players weren't such douches about it. The idea is obviously to jump into the scene, get a feel for it, and get established before the boost of players occurs when Remastered comes; unfortunately, it appears that the current community isn't a fan of that for whatever reason.
This isn't the only thing by the way. I recall people complaining about their use of smash.gg to do the brackets plus map veto system, only because no other BW tournament does it that way. Obviously that's going to get on the hosts nerves as well when they're just trying something new (that I actually liked using and thought worked pretty well).
People have their own opinions on whether we should allow Koreans to participate or not and that's fine. But do we really have to directly or indirectly insult the tournament organizers as well?
I totally agree with you, but where did you see any insult. I assume he got insulted by some people on BW or PM but if it's the comments on those threads got him mad to the point to stop those tournaments then i don't know what to say, but it's a bit childish.
If he had told us don't play in my tournaments and if there are not enough players i'm gonna change rules we would have done that, but instead he told us "i m not gonna chance anything, deal with it". Or we didn't understand each other, i don't know.
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On June 15 2017 04:16 GoShox wrote: Ugh, can people stop saying garbage like "Filthy/Schamtoo are obviously inexperienced" or alluding to the idea that they don't know what they're doing? They've both run many tournaments for other games and obviously have experience. Sure, they're new to BW, but Filthy has even said himself that he would've been willing to adjust his tournament if the players weren't such douches about it. The idea is obviously to jump into the scene, get a feel for it, and get established before the boost of players occurs when Remastered comes; unfortunately, it appears that the current community isn't a fan of that for whatever reason.
This isn't the only thing by the way. I recall people complaining about their use of smash.gg to do the brackets plus map veto system, only because no other BW tournament does it that way. Obviously that's going to get on the hosts nerves as well when they're just trying something new (that I actually liked using and thought worked pretty well).
People have their own opinions on whether we should allow Koreans to participate or not and that's fine. But do we really have to directly or indirectly insult the tournament organizers as well?
I think the most annoying thing is that every time these discussions come up, everyone just insults us. No one thinks "Hey maybe these people have a reason for doing xyz, or thinking ____". Everyone just plain and straight insults us.
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On June 15 2017 04:23 SchAmToo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 04:16 GoShox wrote: Ugh, can people stop saying garbage like "Filthy/Schamtoo are obviously inexperienced" or alluding to the idea that they don't know what they're doing? They've both run many tournaments for other games and obviously have experience. Sure, they're new to BW, but Filthy has even said himself that he would've been willing to adjust his tournament if the players weren't such douches about it. The idea is obviously to jump into the scene, get a feel for it, and get established before the boost of players occurs when Remastered comes; unfortunately, it appears that the current community isn't a fan of that for whatever reason.
This isn't the only thing by the way. I recall people complaining about their use of smash.gg to do the brackets plus map veto system, only because no other BW tournament does it that way. Obviously that's going to get on the hosts nerves as well when they're just trying something new (that I actually liked using and thought worked pretty well).
People have their own opinions on whether we should allow Koreans to participate or not and that's fine. But do we really have to directly or indirectly insult the tournament organizers as well? I think the most annoying thing is that every time these discussions come up, everyone just insults us. No one thinks "Hey maybe these people have a reason for doing xyz, or thinking ____". Everyone just plain and straight insults us.
I strongly disagree with you but i never insulted you and same for eon or trutacz. I respect what you did and are doing
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On June 15 2017 04:10 iFU.pauline wrote: Really some need to understand that we foreign players aren't here to seek improvement to reach higher planes of existence. We are old and play mainly for fun.
Now I read shit and it seems some people have difficulties to understand that if you are born in Harlem NY and play basketball you are more likely to be much better at it that if you were born in Loudenvielle France. To those people, please stop posting, you obviously don't have the requirements to have an opinion anywhere close to decency.
Now the difference you have between NYC and Loudenvielle is the same you have between KoreanBW and ForeignBW. Scan comes from KoreanBW, he plays competitive starcraft. We don't. This is why the gap in skill is that big not you idiotic improvement argument, because if that was true, Korean would be the best at everything obviously.
Regarding Scan, it is ok he participates from time to time after all he is more than welcome, but we are starting to see blatant abuse and that's not cool. We find that inappropriate and it is killing the fun.
Pretty sure a lot of people agree with you that knowing Korean and coming from Korea is an advantage. Actually pretty sure everyone here agrees with you. Also pretty sure everyone agrees that we want to mainly have fun.
But as for the idiotic improvement argument: people that respond with "git gud" just don't agree about your abuse point, or that he's killing fun.
So yeah, you have some strong observations. But that doesn't mean we have to agree with your conclusion about abuse or killing fun. So when they say "git gud", they are pointing out how they see it. They see a bunch of sour posters in here targeting tournament hosters, targeting scan, and in general whining when they could be practicing. This is also a valid observation, just like you had some valid observations. You don't have to agree with the "git gud" conclusion, just like they don't have agree with your "abuse".
On June 15 2017 04:24 KenZy wrote: I strongly disagree with you but i never insulted you and same for eon or trutacz. I respect what you did and are doing
Well, you guys better change something. Both tournament organizers came in here pissed at the behavior of you all. A bunch of other posters and players are also not happy.
When it comes down to it, tournament organizers have the money and they make the rules. You get upset and piss them off, they still have the power.
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It's honestly bizarre that players or anyone else would feel like they have the right to tell people funding and running tournaments what to do.
You can say "Hey, I think your tournament might be more successful in terms of entrants and/or viewers if you did X". You can even make a thread about it on Team Liquid and discuss X and whether or not people think it would be good.
But if the person with the money says no that's it. There's no discussion. You can't treat them like some they're kind of community resource. They are their own person. It's up to them what they do with their time and money. You don't have to support it but you don't get to use them to advance your 'for the good of the game/community' goals just because you think they're worthwhile.
You're debating about whether or not you're right but it doesn't matter at all because even if you're right you still don't get to do that.
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On June 15 2017 04:36 Lachrymose wrote: It's honestly bizarre that players or anyone else would feel like they have the right to tell people funding and running tournaments what to do.
You can say "Hey, I think your tournament might be more successful in terms of entrants and/or viewers if you did X". You can even make a thread about it on Team Liquid and discuss X and whether or not people think it would be good.
But if the person with the money says no that's it. There's no discussion. You can't treat them like some they're kind of community resource. They are their own person. It's up to them what they do with their time and money. You don't have to support it but you don't get to use them to advance your 'for the good of the game/community' goals just because you think they're worthwhile.
You're debating about whether or not you're right but it doesn't matter at all because even if you're right you still don't get to do that. I agree with you but unfortunately I cannot shut everyone's mouth and people will still be talking. The only thing to do is to either go for a compromise or have a strong stomach.
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On June 15 2017 02:21 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 02:20 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 15 2017 02:17 ninazerg wrote:REGIONS, PEOPLE. Regions. On June 14 2017 05:21 ninazerg wrote: Here's a nice compromise:
Hold a regional tournament for Europeans, North Americans, etc., then have the winners fight it out. Each regional champ will make a bit of cash, and then the grand champion will make a little bit more. You could break down the regions like so:
- North America - South America - Mother Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States - Europe - Korea - China - Southeast Asia/Australia/Japan/Anyone from the rest of Asia because I know they're out there - AFRICA
Or something like that. This would encourage those smaller communities to practice so they could win their regional championships, because it'd definitely be up for grabs. But yeah, I'm fully prepared for no one to listen and to see like 5 more pages of people not even coming close to finding a solution. If you want a real solution, then at some point, you have to make some kind of compromise. Problems: - Not many players in community to begin with
- Nobody cares about the regions from a viewer perspective. Only a few vocal social justice BW players in here are complaining
- Tournament organizers like Filthy (just judging by his posts here) don't really care about regions, and just want a tournament where anyone can join
These problems are solvable.
Sorry I missed this. What did you have in mind?
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