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United States1428 Posts
On June 15 2017 14:16 Vivi57 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 02:45 Jealous wrote: Playing on BGH is lame. Blizzard maps or bust. Expedition, Killing Fields, Tropical Seas, Black Hole, Multiplication... that's where the real shit is at. We second this. A 128x128 map makes everything way too cramped for 8 players. A blizzard map would also have the advantage of placing a time limit on the game through finite resources. BGH games in practicality don't go on forever or for any obnoxiously long times. They probably take as long as any normal 8 player FFA. Infinite resources provide a different type of game that's really fun and why the map has endured so long as the signature map to play on. Fitting 8 players on the cramped 128x128 map is all about the appeal of the map and why it's endured - fun rushes, frequent battles not too far away, easy to play on and memorize, and probably a handful of other things I'm forgetting. 256x256 is way too huge imo, it's far more prone to really slow starts and few battles between only two opponents at a time. Something like a 140x140 map might be better suited. Even then it's not really that cramped on BGH if you place your buildings well.
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On June 16 2017 04:56 Ty2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 14:16 Vivi57 wrote:On June 15 2017 02:45 Jealous wrote: Playing on BGH is lame. Blizzard maps or bust. Expedition, Killing Fields, Tropical Seas, Black Hole, Multiplication... that's where the real shit is at. We second this. A 128x128 map makes everything way too cramped for 8 players. A blizzard map would also have the advantage of placing a time limit on the game through finite resources. BGH games in practicality don't go on forever or for any obnoxiously long times. They probably take as long as any normal 8 player FFA. Infinite resources provide a different type of game that's really fun and why the map has endured so long as the signature map to play on. Fitting 8 players on the cramped 128x128 map is all about the appeal of the map and why it's endured - fun rushes, frequent battles not too far away, easy to play on and memorize, and probably a handful of other things I'm forgetting. 256x256 is way too huge imo, it's far more prone to really slow starts and few battles between only two opponents at a time. Something like a 140x140 map might be better suited. Even then it's not really that cramped on BGH if you place your buildings well. I'd say that on East, 90% of the race wars I saw were not on BGH or Hunters. It removes a lot of the fun elements of race wars. So I'm not sure if you meant BGH is a signature map to play on BW in general, but if you meant race wars then I think you're mistaken. BGH gets stale, especially if it is the ONLY map that will be played on.
Big maps are great because the imbalance between 3 x 3 x 2 races can be overcome. Positional advantages are not as tremendous/permanent. I'm not going to pretend that the maps I listed are at all balanced, but at least they are not so horrendously inescapable in their imbalance, like Tanks from 9 shelling the SHARED natural of 11 and 12, for example. Money running out forces people to constantly expand, manage multiple bases, as does having maps with little/no choke points. Big maps allow for comebacks in little nooks and crannies and more growth of players in terms of territory towards one another, whereas BGH is generally a binary situation where either you keep your main or you lose it and thus have to leech off your allies. I've had too many BGH games in my experience that boil down to me making as much money as I'm spending every macro round and just sending over and over, like waves crashing into waves, because static defenses are relatively cheap and incredibly effective at defending against other forms of play. It becomes an attrition game or a dodging game.
Not saying that these shouldn't be played at all. Just that BGH is not the best map for this type of game, imo.
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United States9627 Posts
I just want a good ffa or race wars map. Like, NHFFA has provided some interesting maps but none that i would really deem as good tbh. Need better naturals and thirds for example without the map getting overly too big.
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On June 16 2017 08:31 FlaShFTW wrote: I just want a good ffa or race wars map. Like, NHFFA has provided some interesting maps but none that i would really deem as good tbh. Need better naturals and thirds for example without the map getting overly too big. I find that some of the NHFFA maps that are made by Excalibur do somewhat satisfy this, as they are often "FS for 8 Players, with some extra stuff added" types. I would prefer these over BGH also, but I personally find Killing Fields/Expedition generate some great games without being even remotely similar to any of the above, simply because they force a completely different playstyle more akin to olden days at times.
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Just a reminder that tomorrow @ 1:00pm EDT is our next race wars. Wednesday ran pretty well. We only played one game but we didn't have troubles getting 8 people and the game played flawlessly with no lag (except spikes from me!). Roegi has put in a lot of work on the google sheet and automated everything so I want to thank him again. After we get some more games played I'll work on graphing statistics for fun and cause graphs are fricken pretty.
On June 15 2017 14:16 Vivi57 wrote:
We second this. A 128x128 map makes everything way too cramped for 8 players. A blizzard map would also have the advantage of placing a time limit on the game through finite resources.
Also in the future we can consider changing maps for race wars but BGH has always been a solid choice. We've played a ton of race wars in the history of Shield Battery (BWchart has me at over 50) and we've never had a problem with stalled out long games. In fact, I asked tec27 to add the Blizzard map Theatre of War for an FFA map (as FFA on BGH sucks, admittedly) and we have played race wars on it and unanimously agreed it was a lot less fun than BGH.
Larger maps make it less likely you'll be able to coordinate with teammates and discourages action while BGH you have to constantly fight for more vespene geysers and proactively help your teammates. For people unfamiliar with race war meta, a lot of players go for economical builds and fast expansions because doing aggressive one-base builds puts you at a disadvantage against the team that doesn't get attacked (ie you double gate as Protoss and attack a Terran, and the Zerg team comes out ahead no matter if your attack is successful or not). This is even worse on bigger maps, even with finite resources because people put more of their money into defenses than armies and are even less likely to fight as there is less recourse if your attack goes awry.
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Race wars starting in 5 minutes. I'll host a lobby on SB.
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Starting in 30 minutes. Come one come all.
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Next Race Wars is in
Also I just updated some graphs and temporarily removed points but saved all the work roegi did. I'm too retarded to get it to work for new people I add to the list so I'm gonna check it out and read into it when I have more time. Also I graphed two data sets of things that are probably the most interesting, being win percentages and the average game length on victory. I'll be adding and updating graphs on the OP. Yesterday was pretty good, we did 5 Race Wars, so it was a fairly action packed night. Ya'll better come, I'm gonna keep on this and hound everyone and continue posting in this topic every Wednesday/Saturday to remind people about it. Also we have had no lag issues in any of the race wars games which is awesome.
As far as graphs go, is there anything I could provide that people would want to see? Off the top of my head I can't think of anything relevant that seems obvious to me. I'm having fun graphing the data (mostly doing it by hand because I don't have the same skillset as roegi and nbaker but it isn't too much trouble honestly. Takes me a minute or two for each game played) and I think we can make some pretty strong assumptions based on what we already have. This being, Zerg sucks butt and the later a game goes, the more of a chance Terran has to win. Thank u for ur time. Here are the graphs, I posted them in OP too but from my experience in making threads people hate looking at OP for edits, so I will also post updated graphs once a week here along with my RACE WARS countdown. Thank u thank u.
Graphs:
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The most obvious addition IMO would be a simple pie chart describing the win% of 3 player teams vs. 2 player teams. These could be subdivided into P/Z/T each.
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thedeadhaji
39471 Posts
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On June 23 2017 14:22 thedeadhaji wrote: oh baby 3d pie charts
Yah I already got made fun of for it. Apparently you shouldn't be using 3d pie charts if you're not displaying information in the 3rd dimension. I just thought it looked cooler tho. And god damnit I'm prepared to sacrifice sustenance for aesthetic.
On June 23 2017 11:15 Jealous wrote: The most obvious addition IMO would be a simple pie chart describing the win% of 3 player teams vs. 2 player teams. These could be subdivided into P/Z/T each.
Yah this is a good suggestion and nbaker brought it up to me as well. When I get more volume / sample size I will be adding this.
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Australia7069 Posts
game is about to start, just need +1 more, someone join up!
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On June 25 2017 01:05 Kiante wrote: game is about to start, just need +1 more, someone join up! Wtf it says 48 minutes. That's booty.
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Updated the graphs on OP. Next games are on Wednesday. Lets have a blast. PS I hate Terran.
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thedeadhaji
39471 Posts
On June 23 2017 16:50 SCC-Faust wrote:Yah I already got made fun of for it. Apparently you shouldn't be using 3d pie charts if you're not displaying information in the 3rd dimension. I just thought it looked cooler tho. And god damnit I'm prepared to sacrifice sustenance for aesthetic. Show nested quote +On June 23 2017 11:15 Jealous wrote: The most obvious addition IMO would be a simple pie chart describing the win% of 3 player teams vs. 2 player teams. These could be subdivided into P/Z/T each. Yah this is a good suggestion and nbaker brought it up to me as well. When I get more volume / sample size I will be adding this.
it's ok it's kind of cute that you used 3d pie charts haha <3
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Unfortunately I will not be available to host race wars at the normal time today. I will be hosting it around 3 to 3:30pm EDT instead depending on when I get home from some obligations.
Edit: It will have to be around 4 to 4:30pm EDT now... something got delayed.
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