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Hi guys,
Wanted to raise an issue I ran into a few days ago. I was coming off a good ZvP, held a proxy zealot rush into air play, sweet stuff. And in the teamliquid chat group some gold-3 level zerg was asking for replay analysis. I was in a good mood so I thought, why not help a zerg brother out, and I watched the replay with him. I was thinking I'll help him clean up his macro, talk about army groups, some economy stuff, the basics.
His game is a forty five minutes zvt where T goes for turtle battlecruiser play with mass-mass missile turrets ( think 12 per base ), zerg had no more then 40 drones at any point in the game, zerg opened gas pool into ling aggression into roach expand. Terran had almost no ground beyond some tank cover of his nat. and plantery fortresses. there were late game cyclones running around. It was madness.
So here's the question, where would you start coaching with a player at this level? They are obviously aware of the 'mechanics' of play, they know to make bases and make units, the Z player actually had great creep spread, thou almost no injects. Most obvious answer would be "Go read build orders". But I'm not sure a player at this level would be able to understand what are the important and what are the trivials of any build order.
I personally stressed three messages: 1. reach 74 mining drones as economy target 2. hit max, trade army, remax better, kill 3. best loss is when you have only drones, note time and opponent build, make army one minute earlier next time.
Also went over the idea of overlord placement for scouting and egg hotkeying.
The idea was to try and give him a very broad 'game plan' to aim for without trying to go through every specific build and match up. But I was wondering if you guys think of anything simpler or more direct to help players at this level?
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There are many ways getting better.
I guess in that case the important part was putting the mechanics in the proper order of importance. Creep spread is way less important then injects and droning.
Roach pressure must achieve something, otherwise droning is way better. I open with the 3 roach opener sometimes, and I know that either I do some eco damage (kill SCVs, delay mining, etc), trade them well with the early marines, or I'm behind.
While being in Gold I remember I was afraid trading my army if it wasn't cost efficient which is almost impossible vs mech. Learning some timings (roach ravager was popular then) got me way ahead as I wasn't afraid of losing my army (it was part of the plan), and I learned the bile micro and other parts of the roach ravager combo.
So putting things in the proper order of importance (high drone count, spending the resources, etc) was the important part. Having 40 drones vs a turtle terran is way not enough, even in gold league.
What was the third timing? In Gold I was getting my third at 5 minutes and now I get it by 3:30. A late third means some aggression must be done and achieve something (like 2 base muta, which can work in Gold league quite well I guess).
You can always get way better by cheesing or going for strong all-ins, and if that was what he wanted with his roaches, my advises won't help him, but creep spread isn't necessary if you are going for a quick all-in or a cheese.
Distinguishing between the important parts and the not important ones are the important. I remember helping a fellow Gold/Plat Zerg player after I beat him with my offrace. He was going for macro focused game plan, but his way of injecting was looking at the screen and injecting a single hatch when the small icon of new larva was popping at the left of the screen (I didn't know it was happening until he told me about it). I tried explaining how important a macro cycle is, but he preferred his old way of injects, so I gave up on helping him eventually. Its an example of what holding low level players at the level they are. The less important stuff like army compositions is way more prioritized for them then more important ones like mechanics, macro, etc.
I wen from Gold to Diamond simply by using ggtracker and getting my spending to a diamond/masters level (beginning from bronze, even though I was already in Gold league). Simple game plans (timings mostly) for each match up made me focus on what is important rather then the less relevent stuff.
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I taught him the basic zerg opener (17h18g17p ) and told him to take third at 32 supply unless he's being cheesed, he took the third at like 10:00 in that game.
I'm not sure if pointing some one to a specific all-in is a good way for him to improve, he might win more but he will have trouble translating that into game knowledge.
On the one hand I don't want to give advice so general its basically just 'git gud' nor do I have the time to go super deep into builds.
Recommending ggtracker is a good idea, I use it as well.
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I said all-ins just because its a way of getting higher on the ladder, some do it, I didn't and I don't recommend it as the games aren't that interesting that way.
The main part is making putting things in the proper order of importance in those levels.
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Using allins is a good idea as it is an easy and quick way to stress the importance of good macro to hit the timing. It's more immediate for them to see that, oh I missed a macro cycle and could had hit 30 seconds earlier. But always, teach the basic zerg openers. If they can't get the 2 mins of the game right, they can't get the next 5 mins of the game right anyways. On the other hand, if they are focused on macro in general, it is probably better to set some droning and expansion goals as a goal for comparison. At the very least, telling him that he can't just sit on 40 drones for 45 mins is probably quick and easy advice to give him as well.
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I think this depends on how you define 'all-ins', I wouldn't recommend 13g12p bane all-in as a mean to learn the game but the three base ling bane aggression on 26 drones is a great option for a very 'simple' build with great potential for growth.
http://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/52545/
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How to coach? Teach em how to macro, supply stuck = worst case, he will reach plat/ dia withouth any big strats, he will crush his opponents by outmacro and micro them /T since wol and I levelled the accounts of my friends to master with crazy strats or just massing one unit. (speaking about 2016, I'm not playing sc2 in 2017 mb games are more difficult but I don't think so,)
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Yeah, but "how to macro" is basically just saying "Git Gud", how do you teach that in a good way? I guess it would be best to really focus on the macro cycle. Hmm, Maybe I'll refresh my old zerg cycle post ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/274298-the-cycle-method-for-zerg-macro) , huh, the new larvae number actually make it even more accurate.
FFS, I can't believe all this time has passed and we still don't have a visual indication on spawn timing with multiple hatches selected.
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On July 17 2017 22:51 IcemanAsi wrote: Yeah, but "how to macro" is basically just saying "Git Gud", how do you teach that in a good way?
Not really, this is one of the most explained and referenced topics in all of Starcraft. The old material is still just as valid as when it came out, and it would be a shame not pointing to them.
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On July 17 2017 23:18 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 22:51 IcemanAsi wrote: Yeah, but "how to macro" is basically just saying "Git Gud", how do you teach that in a good way?
Not really, this is one of the most explained and referenced topics in all of Starcraft. The old material is still just as valid as when it came out, and it would be a shame not pointing to them.
Hmm, most stuff like that is from the 6 worker era, relevant but problematic, and I think most stuff aims either lower or higher then gold. What specifically did you have in mind?
This for example is a good video for that level I think:
+ Show Spoiler +
Also this :
+ Show Spoiler +
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I have a modestly successful stint coaching low to midlevel players. the thing that I realize is that the most important thing that they have to learn at this point is good mechanics and basics that will allow them to be competitive regardless of the playing style, bo, and quirks of their opponents.
Start wuth good timings and mechanics. structure orientations, good habits in macro, and army control. Once they have mastered those, the strategy and gameplay will follow.
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On July 18 2017 22:19 Keyboard Warrior wrote: I have a modestly successful stint coaching low to midlevel players. the thing that I realize is that the most important thing that they have to learn at this point is good mechanics and basics that will allow them to be competitive regardless of the playing style, bo, and quirks of their opponents.
Start wuth good timings and mechanics. structure orientations, good habits in macro, and army control. Once they have mastered those, the strategy and gameplay will follow. I can only echo this. Taught some friends in WoL and HotS scattered allaround from bronze to gold. They all had essantially the same problem: mechanics. A lot don't know every hotkey even though they play a lot. Point at the most important and repetitive tasks. The best way is to have someone sitting next to him (in skype/discord) watching his game and just using five words: "overlord", "drones", "inject", "scouting", "army". Look at their army/production-hotkey usage. How many do they have, are there easy ways to optimize them, do they use them regularly. Strategy and imho even build orders can be looked at when those things are optimized and fluent.
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