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Firsti of all i am noob, but i know basics, i know i need macro and micro skills, i know 12 hatchery, 3 hatch muta and 9 pool against protoss But i have struggle when i scout enemy Terran, how should i know if he goes 2 rax from the start, how to counter that, or if he goes extra CC
How do u use your hotkeys for Hatcheries and units, i go 1-3 units 4-7 hatches
I need to know how to counter terran builds and when i should go with mutas
Btw i fought some Terran yesterday and i was in advantage but lost... I was going lurkers/hydras and he wqs going mass marine medic...and somehow he won after he started producing vessels and tanks...
Some tips with zerg will be good
Thanks in advance!
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I have some suggestion for you. 1. You should drone scout at 12. Most of the time, your drone will arrive at his base while the first barrack is under construction. Try to keep the drone alive as long as you can to see what he follows up. 2. Try to find some angle that your overlord can sneak into his base without being killed before you see something useful. 3. Bumps couples of zerglings and try to run over into his base. If it seems that you cannot get those lings into his base, just keep them for later defense against his push. 4. Always put some lings at the front of his base/natural and frequently check out if he expands or not. This also lets you know when he move his army out, and immediately you can spawn lings or build some sunken to defend. 5. Watch more ZvT replays
Hope it helps.
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1. Scout with 12th drone. This is what I do for scouting: I send the first overlord to check out 1 base, send 2nd overlord to be next to my natural (so I can spot a bunker rush), and send a drone at 12 to scout. When you enter his base, first check out if he has gas. If not, go outside and wait to spot an expansion. If there's no expo, then he's probably doing so 2 rax stuff, so you need to make a sunken asap.
2. My advice is to go 1-5 units, 6-9 hatcheries and use f keys.
3. This is what I recommend to everyone: Do NOT go mutas. 5rax is simply too strong, and honestly not that difficult to use. 1 micro mistake with mutas, and the game ends. Go for 3 hatch lurker with fast expo --> Defilers asap. Once your hive is started, make a spire and you will have scourge in time to stop drops / vessels. If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers.
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You should post a replay of a game where you think you play as well as you can atm and still lose. Then people here can tell you exactly where you could have scouted better/guessed better what he is doing and what other mistakes you're making while trying to defend Terran's attacks.
On August 23 2017 18:06 Vuk_91 wrote:
3. This is what I recommend to everyone: Do NOT go mutas. 5rax is simply too strong, and honestly not that difficult to use. 1 micro mistake with mutas, and the game ends. Go for 3 hatch lurker with fast expo --> Defilers asap. Once your hive is started, make a spire and you will have scourge in time to stop drops / vessels. If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers.
This might sound nice for lower levels because lurker-play gives you much more safety against early bio pushes, gets you a 3rd up definitely, and you don't have to muta-micro. And I don't say it's a low-level-strategy, I know for sure how scary straight up lurker play can be (I think late-hive is scarier than fast hive tho). There are good reasons tho why good players mostly use muta-builds against Terran, even after they started to do 5rax +1 en masse.
It's easy to scout that Zerg is going lurker, and then you have a clear counter-strategy. Terran will see it coming early, just stall the lurkers with bio and defend his front while skipping turrets, teching faster, rolling out with tanks or use early drops. If you sit in your base until defilers are out, Terran might even get expansions up before you can do much.
On the other hand, the early flying-units, very flexible and supported by more or less speedlings, pose a very big threat from every angle on your base if you're Terran even if you know they're coming. It forces turrets and leaving forces at home to defend, and yet Zerg can deploy all his units defensively everywhere on the map if he keeps track of the marine-medic that's out on the map. With mutas, you're not just defending your 3rd, you're putting it out there, undefended/cheap. You force Terran to do something about it at a point in time where he doesn't have that much bio yet. And as he wants to move out, you use the mutas to attack his base, buying time for a few lurks. This game in the game arround Zerg's 3rd offers chances and risks for both sides, and I admit that it's hard to juggle all the eventualities in this phase, but that's true for Terran also. If done properly, Mutas buy you just enough time to start your 3rd and get lurkers out, so they offer exactly what lurkers do BUT with a strong, flexible aggressive potential in the early mid-game. And it's not like muta-ling has no chance against 5rax. They can rip apart the first push, especially if you can split up Terrans forces beforehand, and then Terran is the one coming from behind.
In the long run it would definitely be better to have something else than lurker strats in your arsenal.
On August 23 2017 18:06 Vuk_91 wrote:
If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers.
This is a bit of an exaggeration... if you plan to never move out until you have dark swarm, I guess, or if Terran plans to fight under dark swarm, yes...
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On August 23 2017 18:06 Vuk_91 wrote: 1. Scout with 12th drone. This is what I do for scouting: I send the first overlord to check out 1 base, send 2nd overlord to be next to my natural (so I can spot a bunker rush), and send a drone at 12 to scout. When you enter his base, first check out if he has gas. If not, go outside and wait to spot an expansion. If there's no expo, then he's probably doing so 2 rax stuff, so you need to make a sunken asap.
2. My advice is to go 1-5 units, 6-9 hatcheries and use f keys.
3. This is what I recommend to everyone: Do NOT go mutas. 5rax is simply too strong, and honestly not that difficult to use. 1 micro mistake with mutas, and the game ends. Go for 3 hatch lurker with fast expo --> Defilers asap. Once your hive is started, make a spire and you will have scourge in time to stop drops / vessels. If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers.
How can i reach 6-9 for hatcheries with left hand?
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On August 23 2017 19:19 Highgamer wrote:You should post a replay of a game where you think you play as well as you can atm and still lose. Then people here can tell you exactly where you could have scouted better/guessed better what he is doing and what other mistakes you're making while trying to defend Terran's attacks. Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 18:06 Vuk_91 wrote:
3. This is what I recommend to everyone: Do NOT go mutas. 5rax is simply too strong, and honestly not that difficult to use. 1 micro mistake with mutas, and the game ends. Go for 3 hatch lurker with fast expo --> Defilers asap. Once your hive is started, make a spire and you will have scourge in time to stop drops / vessels. If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers. This might sound nice for lower levels because lurker-play gives you much more safety against early bio pushes, gets you a 3rd up definitely, and you don't have to muta-micro. And I don't say it's a low-level-strategy, I know for sure how scary straight up lurker play can be (I think late-hive is scarier than fast hive tho). There are good reasons tho why good players mostly use muta-builds against Terran, even after they started to do 5rax +1 en masse. It's easy to scout that Zerg is going lurker, and then you have a clear counter-strategy. Terran will see it coming early, just stall the lurkers with bio and defend his front while skipping turrets, teching faster, rolling out with tanks or use early drops. If you sit in your base until defilers are out, Terran might even get expansions up before you can do much. On the other hand, the early flying-units, very flexible and supported by more or less speedlings, pose a very big threat from every angle on your base if you're Terran even if you know they're coming. It forces turrets and leaving forces at home to defend, and yet Zerg can deploy all his units defensively everywhere on the map if he keeps track of the marine-medic that's out on the map. With mutas, you're not just defending your 3rd, you're putting it out there, undefended/cheap. You force Terran to do something about it at a point in time where he doesn't have that much bio yet. And as he wants to move out, you use the mutas to attack his base, buying time for a few lurks. This game in the game arround Zerg's 3rd offers chances and risks for both sides, and I admit that it's hard to juggle all the eventualities in this phase, but that's true for Terran also. If done properly, Mutas buy you just enough time to start your 3rd and get lurkers out, so they offer exactly what lurkers do BUT with a strong, flexible aggressive potential in the early mid-game. And it's not like muta-ling has no chance against 5rax. They can rip apart the first push, especially if you can split up Terrans forces beforehand, and then Terran is the one coming from behind. In the long run it would definitely be better to have something else than lurker strats in your arsenal. Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 18:06 Vuk_91 wrote:
If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers. This is a bit of an exaggeration... if you plan to never move out until you have dark swarm, I guess, or if Terran plans to fight under dark swarm, yes...
Ok, I disagree with pretty much every point you made... I'm a c- zerg, and I beat c / c+ terrans all the time with my strategy. And even when I lose, I lose in a late game because my opponent is simply better than me, but in 90% of games I get a defiler and have a decent position at that time.
The issue with going mutas is that you have 3 incredibly dangerous terran timings which you need to survive: a) before the mutas pop out, b) once 5rax kick in, and you need to protect your third, and c) once he gets 3 tanks / 1 vessel. You fail at one of those, and you can gg. When you go lurkers, you get easier third and it's easier to stop that vessel push, so you'll get to late game more often, which will help you improve your defiler use.
I honestly don't understand what kind of a threat muta/ling is to 5rax... I remember like 6-7 years ago, when most people used to go for 2 rax builds, I was able to win like 1/4 or 1/5 games in the mid game, with lings and muta harras. But now, it's basically impossible to do any damage even to a c- terran.
"And it's not like muta-ling has no chance against 5rax." - Yeah I mean sure... You will win in the mid game 1 out of 20 games, but you will lose 7 out of 20. And the thing is, that's true on any level. I watch JD vs Last for example, and in 50% of the games, he is unable to defend his third. I don't know if maybe 2 hatch muta might be an answer, but I am literally 100% sure that 3 hatch muta is a dead strategy at the moment, and that zergs are using it on inertia alone. It reminds me on how zergs used to go for mutas after that +1 corsair became popular, and just constantly failed until JD (or whoever it was) popularized 3hatch Spire -> 5hatch Hydras..
" if you plan to never move out until you have dark swarm, I guess" - This is basically what I recommend. Make like 7-8 lurks max, and 2 control groups of zerglings. Use lurkers to defend, and zerglings to stop potential scv's from expanding, and for vision of course. This way you have a safe 3rd, a lot of resources for upgrades, fast hive and additional 1 or 2 macro hatcheries.
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How can i reach 6-9 for hatcheries with left hand?[/QUOTE]
You'll get used to it. Your left hand needs to move a lot.
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On August 23 2017 20:08 Vuk_91 wrote: How can i reach 6-9 for hatcheries with left hand?
You'll get used to it. Your left hand needs to move a lot.[/QUOTE] How do you go lurker build, which order?
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On August 23 2017 20:19 AcMilan91 wrote: How do you go lurker build, which order? You should be able to find everything on liquidpedia.
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On August 23 2017 20:19 AcMilan91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 20:08 Vuk_91 wrote: How can i reach 6-9 for hatcheries with left hand? You'll get used to it. Your left hand needs to move a lot. How do you go lurker build, which order?[/QUOTE] So basically I'll go for 12 hatch / 11 pool, scout with 12th drone. Build as few lings as possible and get to lair. Do NOT upgrade ling speed with first 100 gas. Once Lair is on 50%, build a hydra den, and get a second gas. At that point you'll probably need a sunken. Once hydra den and lair are done, research lurk upgrade. Send 1 drone and 2 hydras to the place where you'll build your third base, and leave 2 or 3 hydras at your natural. Then get a ling speed and 4-5 lurkers. Make a round of drones, and then pump around 24 lings (which you will use to scout/harras). Get queens nest and hive ASAP. While queens nest is building, get a macro hatch in your main. Once you start a hive, get a spire for scourge. After that, you kinda just need to macro and play with defilers... You can get ultras, guardians, w/e you like. I like to drop a lot, and once my opponent goes full tank/vulture, transition into mutas.
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On August 23 2017 21:03 Vuk_91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 20:19 AcMilan91 wrote:On August 23 2017 20:08 Vuk_91 wrote: How can i reach 6-9 for hatcheries with left hand? You'll get used to it. Your left hand needs to move a lot. How do you go lurker build, which order? So basically I'll go for 12 hatch / 11 pool, scout with 12th drone. Build as few lings as possible and get to lair. Do NOT upgrade ling speed with first 100 gas. Once Lair is on 50%, build a hydra den, and get a second gas. At that point you'll probably need a sunken. Once hydra den and lair are done, research lurk upgrade. Send 1 drone and 2 hydras to the place where you'll build your third base, and leave 2 or 3 hydras at your natural. Then get a ling speed and 4-5 lurkers. Make a round of drones, and then pump around 24 lings (which you will use to scout/harras). Get queens nest and hive ASAP. While queens nest is building, get a macro hatch in your main. Once you start a hive, get a spire for scourge. After that, you kinda just need to macro and play with defilers... You can get ultras, guardians, w/e you like. I like to drop a lot, and once my opponent goes full tank/vulture, transition into mutas.[/QUOTE]
So i am not going 3rd hatch at 13? Hmm thanks, that works against 5rax m&m, what about if i see early gas? I need to know builds i know i am new and i need to get used to macros, i am slow, like 180 apm, forgetting things etc., But i have will to get better, that's why i am here
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[QUOTE]On August 23 2017 21:17 AcMilan91 wrote: [QUOTE]On August 23 2017 21:03 Vuk_91 wrote: [QUOTE]On August 23 2017 20:19 AcMilan91 wrote: [QUOTE]On August 23 2017 20:08 Vuk_91 wrote: How can i reach 6-9 for hatcheries with left hand?[/QUOTE]
So i am not going 3rd hatch at 13? Hmm thanks, that works against 5rax m&m, what about if i see early gas? I need to know builds i know i am new and i need to get used to macros, i am slow, like 180 apm, forgetting things etc., But i have will to get better, that's why i am here[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I forgot to say, you are going for 13 hatch, and then like 12 or 13 gas, that's a matter of taste I think. I sometimes even go for 14 gas, it's not that big of a deal.
If you see gas, then this build obviously doesn't work... You can still go for hydra den, so you can make a couple of hydras, or you can go for fast spire. I'm not good against fast gas builds, so I can't help you with that
180 apm is actually pretty fast... I'd say that everything above 100 is ok for a beginner.
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On August 23 2017 20:07 Vuk_91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 19:19 Highgamer wrote:You should post a replay of a game where you think you play as well as you can atm and still lose. Then people here can tell you exactly where you could have scouted better/guessed better what he is doing and what other mistakes you're making while trying to defend Terran's attacks. On August 23 2017 18:06 Vuk_91 wrote:
3. This is what I recommend to everyone: Do NOT go mutas. 5rax is simply too strong, and honestly not that difficult to use. 1 micro mistake with mutas, and the game ends. Go for 3 hatch lurker with fast expo --> Defilers asap. Once your hive is started, make a spire and you will have scourge in time to stop drops / vessels. If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers. This might sound nice for lower levels because lurker-play gives you much more safety against early bio pushes, gets you a 3rd up definitely, and you don't have to muta-micro. And I don't say it's a low-level-strategy, I know for sure how scary straight up lurker play can be (I think late-hive is scarier than fast hive tho). There are good reasons tho why good players mostly use muta-builds against Terran, even after they started to do 5rax +1 en masse. It's easy to scout that Zerg is going lurker, and then you have a clear counter-strategy. Terran will see it coming early, just stall the lurkers with bio and defend his front while skipping turrets, teching faster, rolling out with tanks or use early drops. If you sit in your base until defilers are out, Terran might even get expansions up before you can do much. On the other hand, the early flying-units, very flexible and supported by more or less speedlings, pose a very big threat from every angle on your base if you're Terran even if you know they're coming. It forces turrets and leaving forces at home to defend, and yet Zerg can deploy all his units defensively everywhere on the map if he keeps track of the marine-medic that's out on the map. With mutas, you're not just defending your 3rd, you're putting it out there, undefended/cheap. You force Terran to do something about it at a point in time where he doesn't have that much bio yet. And as he wants to move out, you use the mutas to attack his base, buying time for a few lurks. This game in the game arround Zerg's 3rd offers chances and risks for both sides, and I admit that it's hard to juggle all the eventualities in this phase, but that's true for Terran also. If done properly, Mutas buy you just enough time to start your 3rd and get lurkers out, so they offer exactly what lurkers do BUT with a strong, flexible aggressive potential in the early mid-game. And it's not like muta-ling has no chance against 5rax. They can rip apart the first push, especially if you can split up Terrans forces beforehand, and then Terran is the one coming from behind. In the long run it would definitely be better to have something else than lurker strats in your arsenal. On August 23 2017 18:06 Vuk_91 wrote:
If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers. This is a bit of an exaggeration... if you plan to never move out until you have dark swarm, I guess, or if Terran plans to fight under dark swarm, yes... Ok, I disagree with pretty much every point you made... I'm a c- zerg, and I beat c / c+ terrans all the time with my strategy. And even when I lose, I lose in a late game because my opponent is simply better than me, but in 90% of games I get a defiler and have a decent position at that time. The issue with going mutas is that you have 3 incredibly dangerous terran timings which you need to survive: a) before the mutas pop out, b) once 5rax kick in, and you need to protect your third, and c) once he gets 3 tanks / 1 vessel. You fail at one of those, and you can gg. When you go lurkers, you get easier third and it's easier to stop that vessel push, so you'll get to late game more often, which will help you improve your defiler use. I honestly don't understand what kind of a threat muta/ling is to 5rax... I remember like 6-7 years ago, when most people used to go for 2 rax builds, I was able to win like 1/4 or 1/5 games in the mid game, with lings and muta harras. But now, it's basically impossible to do any damage even to a c- terran. "And it's not like muta-ling has no chance against 5rax." - Yeah I mean sure... You will win in the mid game 1 out of 20 games, but you will lose 7 out of 20. And the thing is, that's true on any level. I watch JD vs Last for example, and in 50% of the games, he is unable to defend his third. I don't know if maybe 2 hatch muta might be an answer, but I am literally 100% sure that 3 hatch muta is a dead strategy at the moment, and that zergs are using it on inertia alone. It reminds me on how zergs used to go for mutas after that +1 corsair became popular, and just constantly failed until JD (or whoever it was) popularized 3hatch Spire -> 5hatch Hydras.. " if you plan to never move out until you have dark swarm, I guess" - This is basically what I recommend. Make like 7-8 lurks max, and 2 control groups of zerglings. Use lurkers to defend, and zerglings to stop potential scv's from expanding, and for vision of course. This way you have a safe 3rd, a lot of resources for upgrades, fast hive and additional 1 or 2 macro hatcheries.
You disagree with all of my points? That flying units offer advantages ground units don't have and not only disadvantages? That a lot of bio can do well against lurkers, too? + Show Spoiler +like a group of M&M on top of your natural 3rd's ramp on FS That the TvZ midgame is a close fight that can go either way, even if you go muta? None of these are too radical, and none of them condems your position to be unfounded. I never made statements like "lurkers cannot work in ZvT" or "mutas are clearly the better strategy"... I want to have a reasonable discussion and I think we're not that far apart, we're just pointing out different potantials of the TvZ matchup.
That lurkers offer a survivability-advantage even against better players is nice and I totally get the idea of playing more defensively/macro oriented and setting up well for the lategame... I just point out that lurkers hardly offer any chance to harm your opponent if you play 100% defensively and tech for swarm.. that's quite a downside imo. I also presume, if more and more Zergs would switch to lurker play, Terrans would react and your strategy wouldn't fare so well anymore like now where you face many 5rax-builds.
What made me write my post was mainly your suggestion to drop muta play completely... I think that is never a good thing, just like always 5raxing is not a good thing.
And I don't know what games you're watching, but I don't see 5rax as the lock-down to 3hatch muta that you describe. With the later 2nd+ rax, it's harder for T to do the earliest timing you talked about, giving Z more time to drone. If you place your 3rd early, Terran will be tempted to move out with just the first one or two control groups - and now you have the option to harrass (against presumably less turrets) or to let the bio-force wander a bit and then crush it with muta-ling. Of course Terran can reinforce that group, that's normally all you can achieve with your mutas, but you can deal with that now: your lurker tech is on the way, you can build up a higher ling-count, you can harrass again and force him to defend with bio, delay his tech even further. Imo this is still the old stand off around the question "will Z get his 3rd or not and who loses more?" that has always existed in ZvT, and Terrans pay a price for having that nice big bio-ball (no early pressure, less static defense, later tech).
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On August 23 2017 22:00 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 20:07 Vuk_91 wrote:On August 23 2017 19:19 Highgamer wrote:You should post a replay of a game where you think you play as well as you can atm and still lose. Then people here can tell you exactly where you could have scouted better/guessed better what he is doing and what other mistakes you're making while trying to defend Terran's attacks. On August 23 2017 18:06 Vuk_91 wrote:
3. This is what I recommend to everyone: Do NOT go mutas. 5rax is simply too strong, and honestly not that difficult to use. 1 micro mistake with mutas, and the game ends. Go for 3 hatch lurker with fast expo --> Defilers asap. Once your hive is started, make a spire and you will have scourge in time to stop drops / vessels. If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers. This might sound nice for lower levels because lurker-play gives you much more safety against early bio pushes, gets you a 3rd up definitely, and you don't have to muta-micro. And I don't say it's a low-level-strategy, I know for sure how scary straight up lurker play can be (I think late-hive is scarier than fast hive tho). There are good reasons tho why good players mostly use muta-builds against Terran, even after they started to do 5rax +1 en masse. It's easy to scout that Zerg is going lurker, and then you have a clear counter-strategy. Terran will see it coming early, just stall the lurkers with bio and defend his front while skipping turrets, teching faster, rolling out with tanks or use early drops. If you sit in your base until defilers are out, Terran might even get expansions up before you can do much. On the other hand, the early flying-units, very flexible and supported by more or less speedlings, pose a very big threat from every angle on your base if you're Terran even if you know they're coming. It forces turrets and leaving forces at home to defend, and yet Zerg can deploy all his units defensively everywhere on the map if he keeps track of the marine-medic that's out on the map. With mutas, you're not just defending your 3rd, you're putting it out there, undefended/cheap. You force Terran to do something about it at a point in time where he doesn't have that much bio yet. And as he wants to move out, you use the mutas to attack his base, buying time for a few lurks. This game in the game arround Zerg's 3rd offers chances and risks for both sides, and I admit that it's hard to juggle all the eventualities in this phase, but that's true for Terran also. If done properly, Mutas buy you just enough time to start your 3rd and get lurkers out, so they offer exactly what lurkers do BUT with a strong, flexible aggressive potential in the early mid-game. And it's not like muta-ling has no chance against 5rax. They can rip apart the first push, especially if you can split up Terrans forces beforehand, and then Terran is the one coming from behind. In the long run it would definitely be better to have something else than lurker strats in your arsenal. On August 23 2017 18:06 Vuk_91 wrote:
If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers. This is a bit of an exaggeration... if you plan to never move out until you have dark swarm, I guess, or if Terran plans to fight under dark swarm, yes... Ok, I disagree with pretty much every point you made... I'm a c- zerg, and I beat c / c+ terrans all the time with my strategy. And even when I lose, I lose in a late game because my opponent is simply better than me, but in 90% of games I get a defiler and have a decent position at that time. The issue with going mutas is that you have 3 incredibly dangerous terran timings which you need to survive: a) before the mutas pop out, b) once 5rax kick in, and you need to protect your third, and c) once he gets 3 tanks / 1 vessel. You fail at one of those, and you can gg. When you go lurkers, you get easier third and it's easier to stop that vessel push, so you'll get to late game more often, which will help you improve your defiler use. I honestly don't understand what kind of a threat muta/ling is to 5rax... I remember like 6-7 years ago, when most people used to go for 2 rax builds, I was able to win like 1/4 or 1/5 games in the mid game, with lings and muta harras. But now, it's basically impossible to do any damage even to a c- terran. "And it's not like muta-ling has no chance against 5rax." - Yeah I mean sure... You will win in the mid game 1 out of 20 games, but you will lose 7 out of 20. And the thing is, that's true on any level. I watch JD vs Last for example, and in 50% of the games, he is unable to defend his third. I don't know if maybe 2 hatch muta might be an answer, but I am literally 100% sure that 3 hatch muta is a dead strategy at the moment, and that zergs are using it on inertia alone. It reminds me on how zergs used to go for mutas after that +1 corsair became popular, and just constantly failed until JD (or whoever it was) popularized 3hatch Spire -> 5hatch Hydras.. " if you plan to never move out until you have dark swarm, I guess" - This is basically what I recommend. Make like 7-8 lurks max, and 2 control groups of zerglings. Use lurkers to defend, and zerglings to stop potential scv's from expanding, and for vision of course. This way you have a safe 3rd, a lot of resources for upgrades, fast hive and additional 1 or 2 macro hatcheries. You disagree with all of my points? That flying units offer advantages ground units don't have and not only disadvantages? That a lot of bio can do well against lurkers, too? + Show Spoiler +like a group of M&M on top of your natural 3rd's ramp on FS That the TvZ midgame is a close fight that can go either way, even if you go muta? None of these are too radical, and none of them condems your position to be unfounded. I never made statements like "lurkers cannot work in ZvT" or "mutas are clearly the better strategy"... I want to have a reasonable discussion and I think we're not that far apart, we're just pointing out different potantials of the TvZ matchup. That lurkers offer a survivability-advantage even against better players is nice and I totally get the idea of playing more defensively/macro oriented and setting up well for the lategame... I just point out that lurkers hardly offer any chance to harm your opponent if you play 100% defensively and tech for swarm.. that's quite a downside imo. I also presume, if more and more Zergs would switch to lurker play, Terrans would react and your strategy wouldn't fare so well anymore like now where you face many 5rax-builds. What made me write my post was mainly your suggestion to drop muta play completely... I think that is never a good thing, just like always 5raxing is not a good thing. And I don't know what games you're watching, but I don't see 5rax as the lock-down to 3hatch muta that you describe. With the later 2nd+ rax, it's harder for T to do the earliest timing you talked about, giving Z more time to drone. If you place your 3rd early, Terran will be tempted to move out with just the first one or two control groups - and now you have the option to harrass (against presumably less turrets) or to let the bio-force wander a bit and then crush it with muta-ling. Of course Terran can reinforce that group, that's normally all you can achieve with your mutas, but you can deal with that now: your lurker tech is on the way, you can build up a higher ling-count, you can harrass again and force him to defend with bio, delay his tech even further. Imo this is still the old stand off around the question "will Z get his 3rd or not and who loses more?" that has always existed in ZvT, and Terrans pay a price for having that nice big bio-ball (no early pressure, less static defense, later tech).
...Yeah, flying units do fly, and that's an useful ability... You are taking things too literally.
"That the TvZ midgame is a close fight that can go either way, even if you go muta?" - This statement is 100% useless for any discussion. Sure, it can go either way. A fight between archon and mutas can also go either way, and a fight between vulture tank / lurker ling can also go either way, but in reality we all know that in most cases, archons will win, and in most cases, tank/vulture will win. My question to you is this: let's say that C zerg plays 100 games against C terran. How many games will the zerg player win in the mid game, how many games will the terran win, and how many will be approximately equal after the mid game?
" I also presume, if more and more Zergs would switch to lurker play, Terrans would react and your strategy wouldn't fare so well anymore like now where you face many 5rax-builds." - With this I actually agree. But, the fact is, my post on liquipedia wont change an entire meta game of a brood war matchup. One of the biggest advantages of going for lurkers is that Terran players are actually quite bad at dealing with it. When / if they become better, it's not that hard to go back to mutas.
"What made me write my post was mainly your suggestion to drop muta play completely" - Ok, if I wrote that, then I was wrong and I have no problem admitting it. If I play a bo5 or bo7, I'll go for lurkers 3 times and mutas twice, or lurkers 4-5 times and mutas 2-3 times in a bo7. I still do claim that (especially on lower levels) going for lurkers will get you better results than going for mutas. It's an easier built to pull of, less micro oriented, and much safer.
Take Flash vs JD semifinal in ASL.. JD goes for lurkers game 1, and wins. Game 2, he again goes for lurkers, fails at micro (+great reaction by Flash) and he loses a close game. Games 3 and 5, he goes for Mutas and just never gets his 3rd up. Also, whenever JD plays against Last, 50% of games is just him not being able to defend his 3rd.
"Imo this is still the old stand off around the question "will Z get his 3rd or not and who loses more" - Sure, but this is an issue with that logic: Even if a zerg gets his 3rd, the game is still pretty much equal... In my mind it's not worth it to risk losing a ton of games.
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On August 23 2017 23:05 Vuk_91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 22:00 Highgamer wrote:On August 23 2017 20:07 Vuk_91 wrote:On August 23 2017 19:19 Highgamer wrote:You should post a replay of a game where you think you play as well as you can atm and still lose. Then people here can tell you exactly where you could have scouted better/guessed better what he is doing and what other mistakes you're making while trying to defend Terran's attacks. On August 23 2017 18:06 Vuk_91 wrote:
3. This is what I recommend to everyone: Do NOT go mutas. 5rax is simply too strong, and honestly not that difficult to use. 1 micro mistake with mutas, and the game ends. Go for 3 hatch lurker with fast expo --> Defilers asap. Once your hive is started, make a spire and you will have scourge in time to stop drops / vessels. If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers. This might sound nice for lower levels because lurker-play gives you much more safety against early bio pushes, gets you a 3rd up definitely, and you don't have to muta-micro. And I don't say it's a low-level-strategy, I know for sure how scary straight up lurker play can be (I think late-hive is scarier than fast hive tho). There are good reasons tho why good players mostly use muta-builds against Terran, even after they started to do 5rax +1 en masse. It's easy to scout that Zerg is going lurker, and then you have a clear counter-strategy. Terran will see it coming early, just stall the lurkers with bio and defend his front while skipping turrets, teching faster, rolling out with tanks or use early drops. If you sit in your base until defilers are out, Terran might even get expansions up before you can do much. On the other hand, the early flying-units, very flexible and supported by more or less speedlings, pose a very big threat from every angle on your base if you're Terran even if you know they're coming. It forces turrets and leaving forces at home to defend, and yet Zerg can deploy all his units defensively everywhere on the map if he keeps track of the marine-medic that's out on the map. With mutas, you're not just defending your 3rd, you're putting it out there, undefended/cheap. You force Terran to do something about it at a point in time where he doesn't have that much bio yet. And as he wants to move out, you use the mutas to attack his base, buying time for a few lurks. This game in the game arround Zerg's 3rd offers chances and risks for both sides, and I admit that it's hard to juggle all the eventualities in this phase, but that's true for Terran also. If done properly, Mutas buy you just enough time to start your 3rd and get lurkers out, so they offer exactly what lurkers do BUT with a strong, flexible aggressive potential in the early mid-game. And it's not like muta-ling has no chance against 5rax. They can rip apart the first push, especially if you can split up Terrans forces beforehand, and then Terran is the one coming from behind. In the long run it would definitely be better to have something else than lurker strats in your arsenal. On August 23 2017 18:06 Vuk_91 wrote:
If your opponent still goes for 5 rax, you will have a nice advantage, since that buils does nothing against lurkers. This is a bit of an exaggeration... if you plan to never move out until you have dark swarm, I guess, or if Terran plans to fight under dark swarm, yes... Ok, I disagree with pretty much every point you made... I'm a c- zerg, and I beat c / c+ terrans all the time with my strategy. And even when I lose, I lose in a late game because my opponent is simply better than me, but in 90% of games I get a defiler and have a decent position at that time. The issue with going mutas is that you have 3 incredibly dangerous terran timings which you need to survive: a) before the mutas pop out, b) once 5rax kick in, and you need to protect your third, and c) once he gets 3 tanks / 1 vessel. You fail at one of those, and you can gg. When you go lurkers, you get easier third and it's easier to stop that vessel push, so you'll get to late game more often, which will help you improve your defiler use. I honestly don't understand what kind of a threat muta/ling is to 5rax... I remember like 6-7 years ago, when most people used to go for 2 rax builds, I was able to win like 1/4 or 1/5 games in the mid game, with lings and muta harras. But now, it's basically impossible to do any damage even to a c- terran. "And it's not like muta-ling has no chance against 5rax." - Yeah I mean sure... You will win in the mid game 1 out of 20 games, but you will lose 7 out of 20. And the thing is, that's true on any level. I watch JD vs Last for example, and in 50% of the games, he is unable to defend his third. I don't know if maybe 2 hatch muta might be an answer, but I am literally 100% sure that 3 hatch muta is a dead strategy at the moment, and that zergs are using it on inertia alone. It reminds me on how zergs used to go for mutas after that +1 corsair became popular, and just constantly failed until JD (or whoever it was) popularized 3hatch Spire -> 5hatch Hydras.. " if you plan to never move out until you have dark swarm, I guess" - This is basically what I recommend. Make like 7-8 lurks max, and 2 control groups of zerglings. Use lurkers to defend, and zerglings to stop potential scv's from expanding, and for vision of course. This way you have a safe 3rd, a lot of resources for upgrades, fast hive and additional 1 or 2 macro hatcheries. You disagree with all of my points? That flying units offer advantages ground units don't have and not only disadvantages? That a lot of bio can do well against lurkers, too? + Show Spoiler +like a group of M&M on top of your natural 3rd's ramp on FS That the TvZ midgame is a close fight that can go either way, even if you go muta? None of these are too radical, and none of them condems your position to be unfounded. I never made statements like "lurkers cannot work in ZvT" or "mutas are clearly the better strategy"... I want to have a reasonable discussion and I think we're not that far apart, we're just pointing out different potantials of the TvZ matchup. That lurkers offer a survivability-advantage even against better players is nice and I totally get the idea of playing more defensively/macro oriented and setting up well for the lategame... I just point out that lurkers hardly offer any chance to harm your opponent if you play 100% defensively and tech for swarm.. that's quite a downside imo. I also presume, if more and more Zergs would switch to lurker play, Terrans would react and your strategy wouldn't fare so well anymore like now where you face many 5rax-builds. What made me write my post was mainly your suggestion to drop muta play completely... I think that is never a good thing, just like always 5raxing is not a good thing. And I don't know what games you're watching, but I don't see 5rax as the lock-down to 3hatch muta that you describe. With the later 2nd+ rax, it's harder for T to do the earliest timing you talked about, giving Z more time to drone. If you place your 3rd early, Terran will be tempted to move out with just the first one or two control groups - and now you have the option to harrass (against presumably less turrets) or to let the bio-force wander a bit and then crush it with muta-ling. Of course Terran can reinforce that group, that's normally all you can achieve with your mutas, but you can deal with that now: your lurker tech is on the way, you can build up a higher ling-count, you can harrass again and force him to defend with bio, delay his tech even further. Imo this is still the old stand off around the question "will Z get his 3rd or not and who loses more?" that has always existed in ZvT, and Terrans pay a price for having that nice big bio-ball (no early pressure, less static defense, later tech). ...Yeah, flying units do fly, and that's an useful ability... You are taking things too literally. "That the TvZ midgame is a close fight that can go either way, even if you go muta?" - This statement is 100% useless for any discussion. Sure, it can go either way. A fight between archon and mutas can also go either way, and a fight between vulture tank / lurker ling can also go either way, but in reality we all know that in most cases, archons will win, and in most cases, tank/vulture will win. My question to you is this: let's say that C zerg plays 100 games against C terran. How many games will the zerg player win in the mid game, how many games will the terran win, and how many will be approximately equal after the mid game? " I also presume, if more and more Zergs would switch to lurker play, Terrans would react and your strategy wouldn't fare so well anymore like now where you face many 5rax-builds." - With this I actually agree. But, the fact is, my post on liquipedia wont change an entire meta game of a brood war matchup. One of the biggest advantages of going for lurkers is that Terran players are actually quite bad at dealing with it. When / if they become better, it's not that hard to go back to mutas. "What made me write my post was mainly your suggestion to drop muta play completely" - Ok, if I wrote that, then I was wrong and I have no problem admitting it. If I play a bo5 or bo7, I'll go for lurkers 3 times and mutas twice, or lurkers 4-5 times and mutas 2-3 times in a bo7. I still do claim that (especially on lower levels) going for lurkers will get you better results than going for mutas. It's an easier built to pull of, less micro oriented, and much safer. Take Flash vs JD semifinal in ASL.. JD goes for lurkers game 1, and wins. Game 2, he again goes for lurkers, fails at micro (+great reaction by Flash) and he loses a close game. Games 3 and 5, he goes for Mutas and just never gets his 3rd up. Also, whenever JD plays against Last, 50% of games is just him not being able to defend his 3rd. "Imo this is still the old stand off around the question "will Z get his 3rd or not and who loses more" - Sure, but this is an issue with that logic: Even if a zerg gets his 3rd, the game is still pretty much equal... In my mind it's not worth it to risk losing a ton of games.
Nice statement, btw for what do u use fkeys and do you find it hard to use 6, 7 ,8 for hatches?
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When you press shift + f2 for example, it literally takes a picture of you screen, and every time that you press an f2 button (without shift), it takes you back to the place where you originally "took a picture". I'm not sure if you understood, try it out yourself anyway Use f2 for your main, f3 for natural, and f4 for third base.
No, 6, 7 and 8 are actually pretty easy to me, 9 is a lot harder but I'm still trying :D
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I see we can gain some common ground, Vuk_91. Of course I see the matchup from another perspective, because playing Terran myself, I see players who beat me down easily with 3hatch just by making the right moves with their units... now you can talk about different difficulties for T and Z in TvZ on certain levels - e.g. zerg having a harder time nowadays on yellow ranks - but then we have a whole different discussion with a limited scope.
Just two things:
I wouldn't say that my "statement" about the open outcome of TvZ midgame was "100% useless for discussion", it had in fact the exact function in our discussion to point out that we agree on something, when earlier you suggested that there here was little use to even do anything else than lurker play against 5 rax (iirc), or that you disagreed with everything I said. You say that, behind the basic openness that depends on how well the players execute, there is a trend favoring Terrans in the 3hatch-muta vs 5rax-setting... that might be true from some level onwards, or across levels... but I've seen Terrans get overwhelmed by good muta-micro and ling-backstabbing on all levels tbh... As I said, I just thought you 'gave up' on the mutas a bit too harshly there... dunno where you got your numbers from but I assume they differentiate a lot depending on what level you look at, which player etc.
When we talk about "flying units", there is no alternative to "taking it literal"... or would you say that in some way they don't fly? And I was not just saying "flyers fly".. my point was that you neglect the possiblities this gives you, that's why I stressed it more than I would otherwise... playing against units that can come at your bases/armies from all angles at all times and retreat to all sides is much more stressful and hindering than parking bio somewhere on the map in front of Z's natural.
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Again, you're kinda missing my point... Of course that terrans get destroyed by muta/ling sometimes. But terrans also win in the mid games sometimes x5. That;s the issue. For every game where zerg dominates terran with mutas, there will be 5 games where he can't even get to lurkers.
"dunno where you got your numbers from but I assume they differentiate a lot depending on what level you look at, which player etc." - I don't claim that my numbers are somehow literally true, I only base them on years of playing/watching bw. And again, in my opinion, 5rax has a BIG advantage over 3hatch muta on almost all levels other than maybe d and d+.
When I said that I basically disagree with all of your points, of course that I didn't mean that these super obvious things (like flying unit give you mobility advantage) aren't true... Of course that having mutas give you a mobility advantage, I just think that it's nowhere near enough to pay off.
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On August 24 2017 00:33 Vuk_91 wrote: Again, you're kinda missing my point... Of course that terrans get destroyed by muta/ling sometimes. But terrans also win in the mid games sometimes x5. That;s the issue. For every game where zerg dominates terran with mutas, there will be 5 games where he can't even get to lurkers.
"dunno where you got your numbers from but I assume they differentiate a lot depending on what level you look at, which player etc." - I don't claim that my numbers are somehow literally true, I only base them on years of playing/watching bw. And again, in my opinion, 5rax has a BIG advantage over 3hatch muta on almost all levels other than maybe d and d+.
When I said that I basically disagree with all of your points, of course that I didn't mean that these super obvious things (like flying unit give you mobility advantage) aren't true... Of course that having mutas give you a mobility advantage, I just think that it's nowhere near enough to pay off. how to attach replay so u can see guys ?
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