http://bwreplays.com/ntztc
(h)ZvT 3 hatch muta got stomped?
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AcMilan91
105 Posts
http://bwreplays.com/ntztc | ||
rauk
United States2228 Posts
3hatch mutas are not to kill a lot of scvs 3hatch mutas buy time to make your third gas safely and get lurkers once you have 3rd gas u can get hive once u have hive u get defilers defilers are fuckin gr8 get them and dark swarm his natural and win game if u want to kill terran with mutas go 2hatch muta | ||
Ramiel
United States1220 Posts
You've made what.... half a dozen threads in the last week? All with shitty OPs. People have taken the time to explain what you are doing wrong, and you don't even wait 48 hours before throwing another game up. Improvement takes time. I'm done posting in any of your threads, as you clearly don't take my- or anyone's advice. Enjoy living in 900mmr. | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On September 12 2017 01:45 AcMilan91 wrote: hmm i dont get it, every time i get 3 hatch muta i get stomp by mass marines ? i killed alot of his scvs thats the point of mutas right? and then he just came to my base and gg http://bwreplays.com/ntztc That's not really the point of mutas, no. Sure, if you can get some SCV kills that's good...but the main idea behind muta initially was that the threat of muta forced terran to stay in their base longer, making it easier for Z to get lurkers out and a third base up and defended. Nowadays the most common way terrans are playing is with fast +1 marines from 4-5 barracks, slowing down tech some to do so. The result here is a greater number of marines just following muta timing...with an upgrade that makes them able to shred muta especially easy. As a result, terran can move out much easier with his greater number of marines. It is likely he can defend at home with proper turreting + greater marine numbers, and also has a much scarier marine ball out on the map; such that if zerg ignores it with muta he is sure to lose his third base or get busted at the natural. The way it's usually plays nowadays is that zerg will do some light harass, if he can get some damage that's great. Limiting marine count is strong as well. At some point though terran usually comes out with a large number of marine/medic. If it's been delayed long enough and lurkers are out defended third/nat it's a comfortable position for zerg, but generally this isn't the case. There are situations where you can need anywhere from 3-6 sunkens at home to defend if he directly attacks the natural, but generally terrans opt to pressure and deny zergs third base. In this case the most common response is using muta/ling to defend while waiting for lurkers. Generally you're looking for surrounds/flanking, and also good movements with your ling/muta ball trying to pick off reinforcements and linking of armies. That's a general overview, and I'm sure better players and those with a chance to watch the replay will also chive in with more specific game relevant comments. | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On September 12 2017 01:53 Ramiel wrote: I think you must be touched. You've made what.... half a dozen threads in the last week? All with shitty OPs. People have taken the time to explain what you are doing wrong, and you don't even wait 48 hours before throwing another game up. Improvement takes time. I'm done posting in any of your threads, as you clearly don't take my- or anyone's advice. Enjoy living in 900mmr. I mean, yea his OPs are bad, but I don't get the impression he isn't taking advice. I think he is just super new, and because he doesn't know enough yet he feels like every loss is from some new unique thing even though it's coming from the same initial problems. One thing you could consider OP is to make a little checklist to break things down, e.g: 1) Were my muta out on time? a) Cool b) Why? -Attacked/Hurt by terran attack? -Was it build order mistake? Attack you didn't know how to defend? Made too much defense? Think of breaking the game down into what you were trying to achieve, and then understand why that didn't happen. For instance, in 3 hatch muta I'd say your general goals would be 1) Muta out around 6:45 2) Third base secured with lurkers, hive started 3) Defiler out, swarm down to secure 4th base Not especially nunanced, but those are the main ideas of an idealistic, standard ZvT. If #1 didn't happen, try to figure out why. Muta can either get delayed because you died, did your build wrong, or had to make a bunch of extra stuff because terran did something unexpected or you made some mistakes giving away lings. For the second one, you'd consider why you didn't get the third: Were you able to stop the bio ball with muta/ling, if not; was it because you didn't make enough lings, muta were late, etc. This is the kind of analysis that helps you learn MUCH faster, and also makes for a much better strategy forum post. You tell us what you were going for in the game, what the mistakes you made were, and why you think you lost. From there, we can give better feedback and it drastically improves your understanding of the game because you're reasoning through these situations on your own. | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
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-Frog-
United States514 Posts
On September 12 2017 02:18 AcMilan91 wrote: i have problem when he just send marines before i start to build spire group of marines just come and i need to build 3 sunkens and then my mutas are delayed and he has map control turrets etc. i lost ... so frustrating I'm at work and can't view your replay to see how you responded to this but I can offer some general advice. When terran hits you before mutas pop you need to, as you said, build sunkens and defend with lings + drone pull. The most important part is that you know when he leaves his base. You can accomplish this by parking your overlord on the cliffs near his natural and keeping your initial 4-6 lings near there as well. Rule of thumb is 1 sunken per 1 medic to defend these kind of pushes. Make sure you aren't getting supply blocked and are using larva efficiently or you won't have enough stuff to defend these early pushes. | ||
rauk
United States2228 Posts
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AcMilan91
105 Posts
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L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On September 12 2017 02:18 AcMilan91 wrote: i have problem when he just send marines before i start to build spire group of marines just come and i need to build 3 sunkens and then my mutas are delayed and he has map control turrets etc. i lost ... so frustrating This is a little better. You're describing pre-spire, so this is fairly early and should be an attack with no medic. If terran has two bases and is doing an attack with medics before you even start your spire...then your build is massively off. If this is a one base terran doing this, then everything is different, and it would generally be okay to have a little defense. 2-3 sunkens are fine in that situation. Assuming the normal 2 base terran, if he is walking across the map with just marines...this usually isn't smart. He won't have more than maybe 6-10, so you can just pump a round of lings from your hatcheries and surround his marines. Most terrans won't even commit to this, because they know it's usually suicide. They just start walking enough to force you to make a few lings then go back and be safe. Bottom line is that three sunkens is FAR too much. Realistically you would need max 1 sunken, but for the marine without medic poke it's almost always better to just make lings. On September 12 2017 02:36 AcMilan91 wrote: yeah i have problem with delaying build orders vs terran and vs toss when he just sends 6 or 7 zealots and i lost my drones,timing and lose the game... so frustrating i dont know how to reorder my builds Let's think through this case. I'm assuming you're going for some 3 hatch spire -> 5/6 hatch play. If it's 6-7 zealots this speed, this will always come around 7:00, except in the rare situation protoss skip stargate (overlord should be checking for this). For regular zlots, it shouldn't disrupt your build. The first check is that by 6:00 you should definitely have your spire, 5 hatches (started, not necessarily completed) and a hydra den/evo chamber. If you don't have that already, it means you need to work on your execution of the build and basic mechanics a little more. Assuming you do have that, you would want to put down 1, maybe 2, creep colonies at both your natural and third base in a "sim city" position. Then, as soon as protoss moves out with the zealots you start morphing the creep colonies into sunkens and take a quick break from drones to flood either some ling or hydra. Use them to block the gaps in the sim city and the 7 zlots are easily defended. As the attack is defended you can then add some more drones and proceed with the build. Main thing here is that a +1 6/7 zlot speed timing shouldn't be messing up your build too much. You should have all the key parts of the build either completed or in the process of making (spire, 5 hatcheries, den, evo chamber). | ||
-Frog-
United States514 Posts
On September 12 2017 02:36 AcMilan91 wrote: yeah i have problem with delaying build orders vs terran and vs toss when he just sends 6 or 7 zealots and i lost my drones,timing and lose the game... so frustrating i dont know how to reorder my builds when they send zealots you need to build lings in response, in order to know that you need to build these lings you have to pay careful attention to your overlord outside of protoss' natural and make sure you don't get supply blocked so that you can build the lings when you need them. after you play enough games you'll have a feeling for the time when a protoss might send this initial group of zealots and you'll be wary | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
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L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On September 12 2017 03:00 AcMilan91 wrote: i just think i dont have expierence yet for macro ...i just lost to some early mech build i just keep floating 2k minerals and gas,i went 3 hatch muta and then got my 3rd base but everything is just slow in my hands about 180 apm he had 70 and easily beat me... It's worth noting against mech opening muta is okay, but if you just try to go lurker + swarm it doesn't work out to well. Versus early mech it's common to go muta (don't expect harass to do much versus goliath) and then expand a bit quicker than usual and mass up hydra to deal with the first attack. Hydra fight goliath, muta focus on killing tank or sniping stray tanks. After you defend first push then you start to work to hive tech. As far as macro it's definitely something anyone knew to the game has to work on. I would first focus on making sure you're builds are good early on (10' and before). Other players your skill also won't have great macro, so if you have 4 bases and 20' into the game it's not good to have 3k minerals...but it isn't game deciding. Getting your spire 2' late in a ZvT absolutely would be. You can just do the builds 20-30 times by themselves with no players in the game (remove CPU on countdown) until you're very comfortable remembering everything, then go back to playing human opponents. For general latergame macro, once you have 3+ bases, if you start to float a bunch of money, it's okay as a newer player to just add a bunch of hatcheries, something like 3-5 hatcheries, to help bring that money down and give you more spending power. EDIT: About APM: it's relevant but obviously not everything. Some people spam less than others. Also, some people just use their APM differently. You could have 200apm, but if you're using 160 of it constantly moving your army around then your macro and build will be heavily affected and you won't have anything. If you're 70apm opponent is using that APM making sure his build is perfect, spending his money, and a couple critical army decisions he can absolutely roll over you with far less. | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
this is what i am talking about..i know i forgot pool but cmon, 8 marines +1 medic and gg... | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On September 12 2017 03:31 AcMilan91 wrote: "1 sunken per medic" http://bwreplays.com/kmfvd this is what i am talking about..i know i forgot pool but cmon, 8 marines +1 medic and gg... I'll watch a few of these when I get back. But 1 sunken per medic generally assumes the typical 4:1 ration of marine to medic. Naturally you'd would need more than 0 sunkens against 100 marines and 0 medics I find that rule is still probably a little on the low side, especially if terran gets good target firing. Sometimes you'll get weird situations too where 3 sunkens totally fails to stop something it seems like it absolutely should. Even pros lose this way every once in a while (though generally they lose because they were just too slow to make sunkens trying to cut corners). Will comment more when I get a chance to see what's going on. | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
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L_Master
United States7946 Posts
Your build looked good and on point, you just didn't react quick enough adding sunks or recognizing the one base threat. Original Rep: You handled the bunker rush pretty well. It's worth noting that in most cases it's better to move the drones ahead and try to intercept incoming marines rather than attacking the bunker directly. Oh man that was close with those sunkens. If it's 2 rax academy type play (can look at marine count and medic timing to determine) you usually need to have at least 2 creeps down before terran moves out. When terran moves out, morph to sunken. After defending that attack, it's good you go across with the muta. It's not as good that you fly over his marines, taking some damage. You rally muta up to terran, right over his marine path, so you have 3 more muta that get extremely softened up. Little too much focus on killing the turrets too. Just run around and draw his marines off, then go back later to a turret if it seems more exposed/vulnerable. You got a few kills, but not that many. No marine kills though. Good news is you're getting 3rd + hydra den, so it's still not that bad. Except you are forgetting lurkers microing your muta. That can come back to bite you in a hurry. Executing build is priority one, microing muta for harass is definitely a lesser priority. At about 9:45 terran is moving out with a shitton of marine/medic. If you had been a little more closely focused on your build, you'd have lurkers and there would be nothing his tankless army could do to you. Unfortunately, your lurker is late. You could have held on with large numbers of panic sunkens, think 8-10, but you didn't really know he was coming for you. He then A moves and kills your 4 sunkens easily, as muta become almost useless against very large groups of marines. Primarily you lost that game because of late lurkers. Had you made lurker 20s faster or so you'd have defended easily at the natural, secured your third, and been 3 base to 2 with hive tech on the way...against a terran that didn't even have a factory started. You'd probably have swarmed in his nat before he even had a vessel out. | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
Also 2 rax acad will hit before muta (2 medics + firebats reinforcing) so i think 2 sunkens + speedlings should be the safest option (3 sunken + evo block if close position and creep not started before Terran moves out) | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
On September 12 2017 06:06 L_Master wrote: "KMFVD" Rep:Okay so in the game with the 8 marines and medic...that was a one base terran. Moreover, he had 3 medics, not one. I think with three sunkens you would have been fine. With a one base terran, that's an aggressive, rush style tactic. The marines come so quick because he isn't expanding. You saw that with your scouting and should have been a little more prepared. Definitely would need to add a few sunkens against that, sometimes as many as 5-6 depending on exactly what T is up to. In this case, 3 (or two with some lings) would have been plenty. Adding these sunkens and lings will delay muta some obviously, but that's fine against one base. Your build looked good and on point, you just didn't react quick enough adding sunks or recognizing the one base threat. Original Rep: You handled the bunker rush pretty well. It's worth noting that in most cases it's better to move the drones ahead and try to intercept incoming marines rather than attacking the bunker directly. Oh man that was close with those sunkens. If it's 2 rax academy type play (can look at marine count and medic timing to determine) you usually need to have at least 2 creeps down before terran moves out. When terran moves out, morph to sunken. After defending that attack, it's good you go across with the muta. It's not as good that you fly over his marines, taking some damage. You rally muta up to terran, right over his marine path, so you have 3 more muta that get extremely softened up. Little too much focus on killing the turrets too. Just run around and draw his marines off, then go back later to a turret if it seems more exposed/vulnerable. You got a few kills, but not that many. No marine kills though. Good news is you're getting 3rd + hydra den, so it's still not that bad. Except you are forgetting lurkers microing your muta. That can come back to bite you in a hurry. Executing build is priority one, microing muta for harass is definitely a lesser priority. At about 9:45 terran is moving out with a shitton of marine/medic. If you had been a little more closely focused on your build, you'd have lurkers and there would be nothing his tankless army could do to you. Unfortunately, your lurker is late. You could have held on with large numbers of panic sunkens, think 8-10, but you didn't really know he was coming for you. He then A moves and kills your 4 sunkens easily, as muta become almost useless against very large groups of marines. Primarily you lost that game because of late lurkers. Had you made lurker 20s faster or so you'd have defended easily at the natural, secured your third, and been 3 base to 2 with hive tech on the way...against a terran that didn't even have a factory started. You'd probably have swarmed in his nat before he even had a vessel out. I didnt know how to respond to that i would just blindly go 3 hatch muta whatever i see with my scout, but i wikl change that, i just need to know coubter for each strategy | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On September 12 2017 07:34 ortseam wrote: Hmm, the advice you are giving is great and all, but one medic per sunken is actually the sunken bust rule Also 2 rax acad will hit before muta (2 medics + firebats reinforcing) so i think 2 sunkens + speedlings should be the safest option (3 sunken + evo block if close position and creep not started before Terran moves out) I never said it wasn't, did I? :D | ||
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