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I'm a player... that played the game until I stopped 10 years ago, I just came back, like 1 year ago... and I've been mostly making maps, I'm more of a NHFFA player, but I digress I've been working on some 1v1 maps, which to be honest I'm not a good map maker for it, yes I've read a lot of things about map making, like resource gathering pathing and the gas issue, thing is.. well I would like to fix the map any way I see it possible, at least this one I have here.
Here you can see the map: www.panschk.de
I accept comments and suggestions on it, and I apologize, if the post is in the wrong place beforehand.
heheeh, hopefully you guys like the new version? anything to improve on it, please do tell me...
Modifications done:
-Remade basically the map. -Made middle wide open so there's enough room for fighting. -Naturals and Main are closer making the worker transfer faster, dunno if fast enough. -Made ramps, hopefully they aren't too ugly or blocky and ppl like them. -Expansions at 3 and 9 o'clock gas works perfectly, tested and functional.
That's it, give your judgement.
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New Modifications done (8/01/2018):
-Naturals Entrances fixed. -Middle Wide open for better mobility. -expansions entrance re arranged so they are in center. of each expansion. -Height difference taken into account. -Pathing of units taken into account. -Middle ramps entrances wide and shorter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ New Modifications done (11/01/2018):
-Mineral re-arrangement in third expansion making the wall in closer to the central building -Expansions in center re-arrangement making a "second" third entrance so there's a "kinda" backdoor for entrance or exit to middle. -Made only one "BIG AS IN REALLY BIG!" middle ramp for middle fight.. still thinking if maybe I should add some resources there... or just leave it wide open. -Re-arranged mains minerals so the main base doesn't look too cramped... although mains are still somehow little.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Modifications done (21/01/2018):
-Taken into account pathing of units. -Remade High ground to ice ramp in 4 0'clock expansion. -Remade expansions at 3 // 9 o'clock. -Remade Middle, making it less straight and more Shuriken like.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Modifications done (01/02/2018): -Open middle. -added 2 more expansions. -Reposition of minerals in mains and nats, same with gas, considering mining rates. -Repostion of Resources in expansions. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Modifications done (06/02/20018): -V 0.16 -Reorganized mineral lines taking into account pathing of workers, hopefully optimizing mineral gathering rate in each base, tested each and every mining base. -Reorganized geysers, hopefully optimizing gas gathering rate in each base, tested each geyser in each expansion.
I'd appreciate if any of you guys could tell me, how or where I can see the mining rates of each base, although I did watch every single one, and each time the delivery takes less than a second.
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How come the lower left base is on high ground, but the upper right is not? This will give the lower right base a huge advantage. Also the symmetry is quite off, especially in how the minerals are placed in certain parts of the map.
Also the main base looks huge, and how the natural expansion area looks is... I don't think it will work.
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This map looks off a lot. Both starter points should start the same for balance. Plus the naturals looks a lot different for both players. Need to be more even for both players.
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OK, So i need to reduce the main bases some, adjust the minerals? So I only put them in the right side or the left side right?... what's the problem with the mains having that mineral placement they have right now? been honest I think it has the same mining rate, but if it is a problem I will adjust it... Symmetry, the tileset is assymetrical, so... symmetry I don't think... althought the expansions I do need to readjust them I'm still doing that, the map is still far from been balanced, the high ground and low ground main bases... huge advantage... been honest I'm confused in that part... so I need to make them both lower ground or high ground? I'll adjust both to be lower ground to make it more even... should I reduce the space in the naturals and mains for both players??...
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High ground gives a miss chance (chance enemies won't hit when they shoot) and blocks vision, which lowground doesn't. Lowground 'ramp' can be completely blocked-off by placing one building, which can't be done on a ramp.
The naturals are basically 2-in-1, and are so wide-open, they couldn't be easily secured Gas geyser placement has a huge impact on mining rates ... someone link a guide (I can't find it), the optimal (i.e. FAIR) placement for gas geyser is either directly above or directly below the town hall.
The natrual's mineral layouts are completely unfair. As a Terran, I would spawn in the bottom, and could place a CC at the bottom of the ramp, and mine, which couldn't be done at the top. The two bases are so close, they're effectively 1 base. Also, because the resources are in-the-way (as opposed to being to-the-side) they'll make a mess for pathing anytime you want to exit your base.
The reason we have 'standards' isn't because we hate fun and variation. It's because those are 'fair', and deviating wildly in the fundamentals (defensiveness of expansions, closeness of expansions, resource layout, amount of buildable space available in-base, not making one main-base tons easier to defend than the other) destabilizes the careful balance of BW.
It reduces the game from 'how good you play' to 'how well you've memorized how-to-play on that one particular map'.
There are many good guides here: http://www.panschk.de/mappage/newsscript/viewarticles.php
And more out there, sorry, I spent 20min looking and couldn't find them, but that's up to you
Enjoy!
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OK the pathing for units in Natural I'll admit I had problem with it... and the natural 2-1 well I do want to apply it.. 2 naturals in 1 natural... just the minerals are less than a normal natural which generally are 6-7-8 minerals here you have 5 minerals per natural, I'd even reduce it to 4 each natural but still wondering about it... gas placement is generally on the left or the top, that's the standard position, but that's in main bases, as for Naturals and/or expansions, there shouldn't be a problem with gas placement with those, that's what I've been told so far.... that's why I'm kinda confused... expansions should or shouldn't always be standard? top//left side of the base....because I've done NHFFA maps that follow that standard...but those are highly different from a standard 1v1 2v2 map..
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Just start by finding a way to draw a symmetrical line through the middle. If you can't do that then it is not a good 1v1 map... Personally, 1 base high ground vs. 1 low could in some extreme complex way become balanced but that would be insanely complicated to achieve. I have never seen a (even in the most contraversial, vague terms) "balanced" map ever use this feature... 1v1 maps must be balanced from 0:00, if one player (or race) immediately has an advantage you can consider the map to be a fail... (yes 4 player maps can give better advantages at different points of the game, different MUs, etc.) but I don't think I've seen something as extreme as this for a while... If you don't take anything from this comment apart from one word; "Symmetry", I'll be happy . If you don't at first succeed then try try again ;O).
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Hello! I'm HansVoralberg, remember me? We played some FFAs on your gigantic 256 maps :D Glad to see you
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Main base is too big + pathing issues going through the natural when it is built up
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Rick, you already got told that this map is imbalanced in the Discord, why waste people's times on here?
You can't make a balanced map with two entrances unobstructed. Until you remove that, you can forget about every other change because it's a waste of time.
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16927 Posts
To echo what everyone else has been saying, playing on this map isn't about skill so much as it is about spawning at the bottom position.
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I like that you used the frozen water terrain. That's my positive comment about this map.
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On January 04 2018 19:33 ninazerg wrote: I like that you used the frozen water terrain. That's my positive comment about this map. You are aware that it is actually called Solid State Dihydrogen Monoxide Terrain, right?
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Jealous... the way you write.. I'll assume you are choboswaggins... so I'll say it... I came here because I want to make the map balanced... so let me get the comments and suggestions of other players out there too..if you aren't chobo well sorry for confusing you.....anyways I'm taking into consideration every comment here and suggestion,anyways... Hi HansVoral, glad to see you too, I do remember you.. Iplay.nettles yeah I did get that.. I'm fixing that right away.. Mythical, yes I've seen low to basically no maps use the concept of 1 hig base vs 1 ground base... I'll try hard to make it work really... thanks nina I like it too...still working on the map a lot..Besides I'm doing this more a challenge to myself too I guess...
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Honestly you should give up on the idea of making a balanced hg base vs lg base. It's not going to work, and it will never be balanced. Also, 2 ramps from separate sides on the natural exp will also guarantee that nobody ever plays the map I'm afraid, as it makes the map impossible to win in certain matchups. (PvZ for example)
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I like how every comment here clearly states that you cannot make a 1v1 map with high ground main vs low ground main. While every response from the map creator answers any other issues (like pathing) except this very main one. Its almost like the map creator deliberately ignores the main issue to troll the fuck out of TLnetters.
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Well I'm not ignoring it.. I did say in a comment up, that if it is needed, I'll make them both low ground or high ground, so I don't think it is necessary to point something out that was already answered, although 1 player did say it was kinda possible... but still considering it... because well.. dunno if it is possible, and as I stated if necessary both will be low ground or high ground... I'm not trolling anyone here...
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The rest of the map isn't exactly well executed either. What is your intention with the natural expansion? It breaks the game by itself, even without the high vs. low ground.
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Like 5 different people have told that it is indeed necessary to make them both high or both low ground. Same goes for the natural. It was even explained to you in detail how it is broken for Terran. Watching a game on a map with a high ground main, one with a low ground main and one with an even main would have taught you that. You should really get familiar with 1v1 if you wanna make a map for it. Some of your designs make it quiet apparent that you never watched a single game of competitive Brood War.
Also try to use the quote feature to respond to people. Sentences separated by that weird ..... are really hard to read.
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You're improving brother. Not wanna be rude but your very first few maps were shit, unplayable and made in 5 minutes. I think the best way to improve, balance your map is surf through BWMN database, compare and read comments. Good luck!
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