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Wanted to throw out an idea her about how our streaming sidebar is done.
As it currently is, it's featured streams are shown, up to a certain number; and then the others are clickable hidden, as are nonfeatured streams. I think the system is fine.
What I'm not convinced is ideal is that all the of the korean afreeca pros are featured, and their afreeca viewer counts used to determine where they are shown on the sidebar. They already get decent viewers, or insane viewers depending on who you are, and don't depend heavily on view counts for exposure or money (it's mostly balloons/sponmatches/etc.)
Top foreigners on the other hand, benefit from a decent position on the sidebar as it draws in more viewers, and is generally better for the comraderie and closeness of the foreign scene. Due to the huge KR views, any foreigner that streams during korean hours is more or less relegated to the bottom of the list, or clickably hidden entirely out of sight. A few big names or highly popular streams like Eon, Artosis, Must, and a few others occasionally can break up into the top 5-10, but only occassionally. For all other foreigners, being featured is basically useless unless you're playing late at night US or very early AM EU.
Everybody knows the korean players, how to watch them, and where to find them. My personal suggestion would be to just have a clickably hidden sidebar showing active afreeca streamers, with featured foreigners being directly shown to TL visitors on the sidebar. Anybody that wants to watch top play still easily can, and strong non-KR players would get much better exposure from random viewers purusing the sidebar looking for something to kill a little time.
Thoughts?
Poll: Foreigners Featured, KR Pro's Clickably Hidden?Okay, I can dig it. (33) 62% You're Crazy Man, get out! (12) 23% Eh, you just gotta skate (don't care either way) (8) 15% 53 total votes Your vote: Foreigners Featured, KR Pro's Clickably Hidden? (Vote): You're Crazy Man, get out! (Vote): Okay, I can dig it. (Vote): Eh, you just gotta skate (don't care either way)
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I actually think this is a great idea, or maybe even feature both and have the option to select from [Korean] or [Foreigner] streams, although i'm not sure what type of coding troubles that would put R1CH through...
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there's not that many visitors to teamliquid
and there's not that many star1 visitors
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Agreed. The smaller foreign streams should get more exposure. This would also encourage more of the top foreign pros to stream. Win-win without hurting the afreeca pros. The afreeca pros already get exposure via afreeca, I think they are fine. Great idea L master
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France1916 Posts
False good idea. This is not going to change anything.
User was warned for this post
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On March 21 2018 15:38 HaN- wrote: False good idea. This is not going to change anything.
This is damn near a strawman, unless you legitimately think it would have zero impact on viewer counts. If that's the case, you'd need to make an argument to back that claim up.
As to your comment, depends on your definition of "anything". Is it going to take a streamer that gets 50 viewers on a typical session and have him see 500, 300, or even 150. Nope.
Could it make a 10-15% difference for many streamers, with perhaps a larger difference in those that routinely see single digit or barely double digit viewers? Absolutely. That's worth something for many people, depending on the reasons they stream.
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Meant to vote for "You're Crazy" although I'm relatively on the fence (voted for "I can get behind it" by accident).
Perhaps I'm too old for social media, personalities, gimmicks, fanfare, etc. I'm a simple man. I want to watch the best Brood War available. This means that I generally have a YouTube video up and a Korean streamer up, playing the videos in between games when they like to pander to their audience.
In effect what I am saying is that I don't much care what language the streamer is talking in as long as they're fresh with it, 95% of the time. If I have something that's bothering me and I don't reach out to people I know in the community on Facebook/Discord, I might hop on and ask a question about a build or issue I'm having. I rarely feel the impetus to ask players mid-game about what they are doing, in part because I like to figure it out on my own, and in part because I feel like my knowledge backbone is sufficient to make semi-educated deductions based on what I see. Let's not forget that StarCraft is incredibly demanding and I have almost never seen anyone talking much mid-game when playing at a competitive level, meaning that the gameplay comes to the forefront; in that case, why opt for lower level gameplay?
As such, I don't really see any benefit to me personally for having Korean streams hidden and foreign ones promoted. I don't trust/enjoy the majority of English commentary and Koreans are simply better at the game.
HOWEVER, I do see the direct benefit for our foreign players and perhaps this will trickle down in some way to benefit the scene as a whole. As such, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea. In the end if people think like me, they can just unhide the Korean streams and ignore the foreign ones - something that I think happens much less often in reverse and thus hinders foreign streamers.
In summary, I guess it wouldn't be terrible but it doesn't particularly entice me either.
+ Show Spoiler [An idea/idle rambling] + I think a good idea would be to have a Twitch group that is something like "Foreign StarCraft," which would then have all of the foreign streamers rehosting each other through the group. In my experience, TeamLiquid doesn't recognize people who are rehosting someone else as a stream that gets listed on the sidebar, so it wouldn't clutter things up here, and it would serve as a sort of central location and community on Twitch to parallel what we have here on TL, to some extent. Streamers would be sharing viewers and thus expanding everyone's potential fandom. But that's a bit off-topic, so I'm going to spoiler this.
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Personally, if I saw some streams of TL staff members like Ty2 or other TL regulars who are active on the forums, I'd be more inclined and interested to watch. But since they are far so down on the list, I usually forget to look. I don't know they are there. With this new suggestion, it would make it easier to find them
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When I'm searching for streams to watch I always click the show all and also check the non-featured streams so it wouldn't make much difference to me personally
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It's a good idea, if you ask me.
One thing to also remediate then, is to get a lot more folks who are still not-featured into the featured section then (there are people deserving of that ... but don't derail the thread and argue over that now)
Otherwise, the already existing not-featured folks are going to go WAY down the list if this change goes into effect. For instance, DragOn just went featured yesterday after posting about his stream 2 or 3 times in the forums. But, if that didn't happen, as per LMaster's poll, the change would've actually put DragOn to the very bottom of the not-featured since you'd be adding the koreans on top of it. He would've actually been arguably unnoticeable.
In essence, if the first point isn't remediated, I think the change could actually effect a lot people in a negative way.
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I like it. I haven't clicked on a Korean stream in months, because usually either Afreeca lags like shit (depending on the day), or I just see one of them either watching another person streaming or they eat or talk randomly to their chat. Kind of annoying to look for foreigners now.
If it's just views you're after, you could also think about adding your stream to Defiler, guess that's where people like Must and funny get their viewers from.
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On March 21 2018 22:35 GeckoXp wrote: I like it. I haven't clicked on a Korean stream in months, because usually either Afreeca lags like shit (depending on the day), or I just see one of them either watching another person streaming or they eat or talk randomly to their chat.
Yup. If I wanna watch pros, I'll do it from VODS / their youtube channel. Can skip to the actual games / does not lag. And when foreigners actually interact with the chat / commentate their FPView in English: now, that' the stuff.
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United States32432 Posts
It's an interesting idea, but I'm skeptical about how many people it would be useful for.
Over many iterations of TL, we've found that most users have no desire to use or even LEARN to use the simplest features. The majority of people are going to use the website in its default mode, which has led to the website's default state being the one that fits the need of the majority of users (I'm oversimplifying here). "Everybody knows the korean players, how to watch them, and where to find them." is actually not an assumption you can make safely, and it doesn't quite address the real issue where the sidebar provides CONVENIENCE, rather than information
Anyway, those are my initial thoughts.
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On March 22 2018 05:30 Waxangel wrote: It's an interesting idea, but I'm skeptical about how many people it would be useful for.
Over many iterations of TL, we've found that most users have no desire to use or even LEARN to use the simplest features. The majority of people are going to use the website in its default mode, which has led to the website's default state being the one that fits the need of the majority of users (I'm oversimplifying here). "Everybody knows the korean players, how to watch them, and where to find them." is actually not an assumption you can make safely, and it doesn't quite address the real issue where the sidebar provides CONVENIENCE, rather than information
Anyway, those are my initial thoughts.
I get your point, I have seen this on other pages. Could you maybe do small changes?
Right now you have this "Organizations" written in bold on the side bar. This seems strange, as usually there's only the Classic BW VODs stream (which is fine, don't get me wrong). I could see that change to "Afreeca/Korean Streams" and the other one saying "Foreign Streams" (or nothing at all, if the Korean streams would show under the Afreeca/Korean Streams section). Also, if the streams had a Afreeca or Twitch icon in front of it would be nice. This doesn't seem like a big change and might be worth a try. The ordinary visitor won't see much of a change, whereas the 'veterans' should know that you can hide other games from the side bar either way - and afterwards what LMaster would like to see would be almost achieved.
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On March 22 2018 05:30 Waxangel wrote: It's an interesting idea, but I'm skeptical about how many people it would be useful for.
Over many iterations of TL, we've found that most users have no desire to use or even LEARN to use the simplest features. The majority of people are going to use the website in its default mode, which has led to the website's default state being the one that fits the need of the majority of users (I'm oversimplifying here). "Everybody knows the korean players, how to watch them, and where to find them." is actually not an assumption you can make safely, and it doesn't quite address the real issue where the sidebar provides CONVENIENCE, rather than information
Anyway, those are my initial thoughts. what about keeping the side bar the same, but reordering the players according to their streaming platform, and give twitch users the top? We are going to see the korean streamers anyways, but at least the first thing you see isn't larva or flash.
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It's definitely worth a try. We can try this and see the outcome, which would be a marginal increase in viewer count in a month's/3 months and 6 months time.
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Seems like the general opinion is quite favorable. I don't think it would be a bad idea to do a test run of the idea presented or AoT's modification. Worst you do is decide there is little value and revert back.
Guess that depends on what the powers that be want to do though.
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TLADT24917 Posts
Interesting conversation and some valid points here. We'll be sure to discuss them internally
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