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I used to be a huge fan of Stracraft in 2011 and up until late 2013.
I was never exceptional, but I did get into a few RO4/RO8 at minor tournament and was able to compete semi decently with lower ranked GM players on the EU server.
Recently I've been getting the itch to play RTSes again, after a ~5 year break from gaming in general. Obviously, my first instinct was to see what SC2 is doing.
So far, it seems to me like the game has gotten much more dynamic, in terms of more units and maps that are less friendly to early game "all ins". Even the concept of "all in" seems to be somewhat extinct in professional play.
But my main concern are that the game has gotten too micro heavy. Just looking at the kind of feats people pull of with lurkers, vipers, adepts and disruptors makes my mind hurt.
I would have usually classified myself as a more strategy-heavy player, being more focused on getting perfect timings, trying to "counter" based on scouting and trying to squeeze the last bit of perfection out of my economy.
The moment that made me say "nope, not for me anymore" was when I saw the widow mine in HOTS.
Then again, looking at the new "defensive" units in LOTV it seems like there could be avenues for play that focus more on strategy and less on macro.
I guess what I'd like to get at here are a few questions:
Is there a comprehensive guide of how SC2 has changed from late WOL to 2018 LOTV ?
Is the game more micro intensive than it used to be ? As in, would your average top tier master or low level GM be worse or better at micro and map awareness than 5 years ago ?
How are the lines between professional and amateurs drawn at the moment. Would you see "normal" people winning tournaments or coming up with interesting strategies or have the lines between "pros" and "amateurs" tightened even more ?
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1. micro: If you only played wings of liberty; of course there were a lot less active abilities: Adept, reaper, widow mine, medivac boost etc.: So naturally the amount of tasks in a battle nowadays is alot more demanding than it was in WoL.
2. Strategy: Today the game is a lot more balanced overall. Almost every Unit is used in a viable strategy. And because there are more different Units in the game today, we have also have a lot more strategies. Almost all of them require a certain amount of Micromanagement to be succesful. With strategy alone you will not get far in the ladder
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A lot of your questions could be answered by playing and watching the game...
I heard an interesting discussion on The Pylon Show about how strategies are created. I'd have assumed it was largely done by pro's but Artosis had an argument of a "trickle up" where some strategies or compositions have been created at lower levels and then refined and probably tweaked to suit pro-level play. Realistically I think anyone who has the interest and takes the time can probably come up with some interesting strategies, though some things are going to be possible in lower leagues that are not at higher leagues.
I know Basetrade does some Amateur tournaments (probably a fair few others I don't know about) and there is the in-game tourney system. So plenty of avenues to jump right into a tournament setting.
But yea, I largely don't get why you wouldn't just jump into the game if you have the itch to play. No need to take it super seriously until you have gotten your feet wet and decided if you are having fun with the game in it's current state or not.
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Specifically on your question about "going through the journey" from WOL to LOTV. I don't think you can do that without having been here. There is no "strategy changelog" that will teach you how the game evolved. Obviously you could sample VODs from different years to see how things have progressed.
I recommend you simply learn the latest iteration of the game (by watching VODs and reading current strategy guides), and reflect back on what you know from WOL. The skills and strategies you have from before will carry forward as transferable skills, but there are obviously a lot of differences.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
The game is much more faster, the difference is still the same.
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With RTS games, there is always the element of macro and micro.
If you think micro is too much, then consider a turn-based strategy game instead.
SC2 as a game has a very high skill ceiling. it is easy to pick up but hard to master. I don't think it is possible to play a perfect game where you micro and macro perfectly. That's the point. A player has to decide what to focus on.
No normal player will win tourney because they lack the skills that pro mastered. However, a normal player can play against people on their level and have a chance of winning.
I see SC2 is more like SC1, especially in LOTV compare to WOL, where meta will change over time. I am not saying SC2 is exactly like SC1 but it is closer to it than back in WOL. So strategies do change. It is hardly possible that a 'normal' player can come up with some new strategy that pros never considered...given that pros spent many hours and many games coming up with unique strategies.
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Canada8767 Posts
I would personnally say micro as in spell casting and individual unit control is less crucial then in Wol and Hots personnaly while unit mouvement and minimap awarness is more important so your gonna need to give more command to your unit but individual control is way less important then just having your thing at the right place. You don't have build like soul train that were almost only micro but you will need to split your army way much then before
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moved more towards the "fast and fluid" C&C style of RTS. a change for the better, IMO.
with LotV Starcraft2 finally moved out from the huge shadow of Brood War and became its own game.
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We have two new Bonjwas, one in the foreign scene and one in the Korean scene.
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On September 20 2018 04:37 Tictock wrote: I heard an interesting discussion on The Pylon Show about how strategies are created. I'd have assumed it was largely done by pro's but Artosis had an argument of a "trickle up" where some strategies or compositions have been created at lower levels and then refined and probably tweaked to suit pro-level play. Realistically I think anyone who has the interest and takes the time can probably come up with some interesting strategies, though some things are going to be possible in lower leagues that are not at higher leagues. Indeed, I still remember a particularly strong build invented by SpunXtain on a map called Scrap Station that 'trickled up' from Master to Grandmaster leagues.
That build was part of Blizzards considerations when moving the Barracks to require a Supply Depot before construction because of the power of it.
Here is a link to that build for those interested in that strategic prowess behind it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Mu_bxV808k
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I did end up jumping into the game and after 2 weeks of playing I can certainly say it's very different from the game I was used to.
It's so much better, everything is very fast, there's so many more possibilities with every race... and I think a lot of it boils down to the whole less minerals + more workers change that Blizzard seems to have applied.
Six more workers to start the game off really changed things up in a huge way.
On the other hand, after 100+ games, I can confirm my personal skills have gone from kinda GM to somewhere in the top of Diamond... it's interesting how much better people are at the game.
I don't think the game is more "micro heavy" than before, which is what I feared, but rather, I think that both strategies and micro games got more advanced and they kind of complement each other.
It's no longer a game I'm good at, and I'm probably never going to be good at it again, but the direction it went into is nice nonetheless.
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On October 07 2018 18:01 George3d6 wrote: I did end up jumping into the game and after 2 weeks of playing I can certainly say it's very different from the game I was used to.
It's so much better, everything is very fast, there's so many more possibilities with every race... and I think a lot of it boils down to the whole less minerals + more workers change that Blizzard seems to have applied.
Six more workers to start the game off really changed things up in a huge way.
On the other hand, after 100+ games, I can confirm my personal skills have gone from kinda GM to somewhere in the top of Diamond... it's interesting how much better people are at the game.
I don't think the game is more "micro heavy" than before, which is what I feared, but rather, I think that both strategies and micro games got more advanced and they kind of complement each other.
It's no longer a game I'm good at, and I'm probably never going to be good at it again, but the direction it went into is nice nonetheless.
I can only agree.
I started playing again after a loooong break and the game is now orders of magnitude better than what it was in WoL and HotS. Better to play, better to watch. It feels more complex and fun to play. I do suck quite a bit (I got placed into gold 3 after barely winning my placement matches!), but that's a given after such a long break. On my way to GM though
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I stopped watching/playing early 2013 and came back with free to play November 2017. It doesn't take long to settle into the new game. Mechanics are largely the same and it's like riding a bike, it comes back quickly. You just need to mess around with the new units and abilities a bit and you're good to go.
Watching and playing is way more fun now because games are faster, that old early game with nothing going on is mostly gone now that you start with 12 workers.
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The game is wayyy better than what it was initially. The micro play you talk about actually balanced the game as before in WOL it was just big clumps of units vs big clumps and I would say most games were decided on one big fight essentially. A lot of older players complained that matches were decided on one engagement and not little fights. Now in LOTV you have these little skirmishes and fights, when I lose a big battle now, it seems that there is hope to come back by dropping marines, harassing with libs, or whatever to come from behind.
I am not sure what happened in the HOTS era because I didn't enjoy playing the game at all during that period. I think this was when swarm host were popular and everytime I saw a terran game it seemed too tough to go through.
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the skill level of players is way higher than before. a master in wol is no where near a master nowadays in term of mechanical skill
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On October 08 2018 04:33 OhThatDang wrote: The game is wayyy better than what it was initially. The micro play you talk about actually balanced the game as before in WOL it was just big clumps of units vs big clumps and I would say most games were decided on one big fight essentially. A lot of older players complained that matches were decided on one engagement and not little fights.
Wait until you get to a higher league and the initial early skirmish/harass decides the game
Game hasn't changed at all in terms of it ending instantly after any large engagement.
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