"The sake of helping out a former hacker"... interesting that you say "former", almost like you're admitting he doesn't hack anymore. And it's hardly about "helping", it's about allowing a hacker the opportunity to prove himself. I don't recall Testie being overly honest about hacking either, but he got endless chances because he was friends with the right people and had enough nutsuckers to get by.
You will note that I said G5 is not trustworthy and that it's likely someone else could have been on that account. I didn't say the SS was forged. But once again you are demonstrating your complete inability to comprehend what you read, process it, form a logical opinion, and put that opinion into a worded response.
Also, I don't know the details of the estro thing, I just know he was "caught hacking" at some point in the last year or so and was not allowed to play in TSL as a result, and has admitted to hacking. I can't help but say that I feel like posting FPVODs of yourself is pretty compelling proof you aren't using a hack in the games in question. So even if one were to assume G5 posted a screenshot of Dino himself on that account, it proves he had a working ICCup hack, but not that he used it in WCG.
If the consensus based on his behavior would be that he shouldn't have been allowed to play, is it fair to ban him now that he DID play, and qualified legitimately (not on a smurf, but on his real ID)? Is it even sensible to ask this question knowing that your response will be fitting for a Bill O'Reilly talking point?
The entirity of your "ability" to argue is based on hyperbole and creating straw men. Do they not teach you about logical fallacies at the school at which you are a champion debater? Because the posts you make on this forum could be used as textbook examples on the subject.
1. Jumping on the word "former" and then blasting me for "strawmen" and "hyperboles" is fucking great. Let's add "nit-picking" as well ok? So now that you are a hypocrite in lecturing me on my debate skills WHICH I NEVER BRAG ABOUT I simply fucking compete in it, I don't care if people think I'm good or bad at it jesus fucking christ. I used the word "former" because I don't want to call him a "current" hacker since I don't associate myself with him and wouldn't presume to speak on something I don't currently know. He has hacked, that is all that needs to be discussed. Did he hack in WCG? Only he knows.. my argument (which you have been avoiding) is that he doesn't deserve our sympathy or "the benefit of the doubt" because of reasons I have stated now like 30 times that you seem to continually want to ignore.
2. You are trying hard to be a dick about my refusal to outright assume G5 is wrong. I have said numerous times even if G5 is wrong or the SS is fallible, it doesn't change the fact that I am not willing to tip the scales in favor of Dino just because.. well for no reason other than to be a swell guy I suppose. You haven't formally stated why he deserves reasonable doubt.
3. You blabber about the vods after stating you dont know much about the situation. Now I could stop there and agree with you, you don't know anything about this.. but I tihnk I will go ahead and AGAIN say what has been ignored by your very fucking blunt head: He posted fpvods of him 2 gating.. NOT all the replays. The games he won "bugged out" and didnt work. That in and of itself is fishy.. nevermind the play that was fishy as well.
4. You speak of logical fallicies yet you go ahead and make one here. You assert he competed and was legit the entire time. You don't know that. You are just asserting as much. And that assertion comes after you state you don't know all the facts, which adds hilarity to that post. Our argument is in fact that given history, the people involved and the circumstances it is MORE likely he is cheating than it is he somehow decided toplay legit (and win) for the first time in his bw gaming carreer.
5. This is just a personal attack which is catagorized as "ad hoc" and again, funny considering you are taking it upon yourself to lecture me on an activity I did that I never bragged about and simply participated in and was happy enough to share that fact with the community.
My bullet points are in direct correllation with your paragraphs. Please stop ignoring the arguments and respond directly as oppose to mixing personal attacks with repeat statements of asserted blind fact.
Control the personal attacks were in response to yours.
You are ignoring my initial point while you claim I ignore yours. I'm not discussing this from a standpoint of giving anyone the benefit of the doubt or giving them sympathy - I'm saying the evidence in the case of the WCG games is that he did record FPVODs, which would lead one to conclude he was not hacking in those games, which would mean he qualified legitimately.
So again I return to what I asked the first time I clarified my post... if he should be banned for having "hacked at some point in the past", at what point do we allow hackers to get a second chance or prove they can compete legitimately? I mentioned a very well known past case of someone (Testie) being caught hacking over and over and getting free passes almost every step of the way. Which leads me to wonder... if Dino was best buddies with the media crew and the TL admins, would his being caught hacking eliminate him from all future competition? Unlikely. So what is the standard here? Nony mentioned standards and consensus but there seems to be no such thing in regard to hacking in this game - your "punishment" has to do with who you know and how liked you are as a person.
See I was actually trying to have a discussion, I asked for this discussion against my better judgement having already witnessed your determination to rabidly attack my every word and make personal attacks. The fact I responded in kind should in no way give you a sense of supriority.
I've been advised by an admin that we are all to "cut it out", so unless you want to actually have a conversation about the subject, why respond at all?
btw the SS of dino was between Machine and Dino (used to be friends) who talk on the phone etc.. he knows its dino 100% and it was NOT g5 that got the SS so you can discount your conspiracy theory that everything g5 says is a lie.
1) Louder thinks that although hacking is bad, hackers should be allowed a chance to prove themselves to be able to play legitimately, etc.
2) Inc thinks that hackers like Dino (who show no qualms about having hacked in the past) should be outcast from the community and be treated like scum.
There are two different opinions, there isn't a right or wrong answer here. Let's either discuss this from a theoretical standpoint, or just drop it - everyone is going to have different views on how to treat ex-hackers ...
ohh yea btw for u guys who kept saying g5 wasent a reliable source for the ss he was talking to me and not eric, me and dino use to be good friends until i found out all he does was hack and take money from people and heres the pics
and he admits all the time that he hacks, its not like these are they only two incedents that he said he hacks in. If your his friend he will openly admit he loves to hack and its the only way to play, and he had admitted many times he hacked at the wcg online prelim vs geoff.
I truely also believe all ex-hackers are scum and should not be allowed to play in anything ever again, they had their shot. its not like its hard to keep from hacking or anything and as for dino he HACKED IN A TOURNAMENT TO GO TO KOREA AND KNOCKED OUT GOOD PLAYERS LIKE XIAOZI AND STOLE THEIR MONEY. try defending that
On August 04 2008 13:05 Xeris wrote: Here's the deal:
1) Louder thinks that although hacking is bad, hackers should be allowed a chance to prove themselves to be able to play legitimately, etc.
2) Inc thinks that hackers like Dino (who show no qualms about having hacked in the past) should be outcast from the community and be treated like scum.
There are two different opinions, there isn't a right or wrong answer here. Let's either discuss this from a theoretical standpoint, or just drop it - everyone is going to have different views on how to treat ex-hackers ...
yup
Except I have arguments stating Dino hacked in the very tourney that Louder is asserting he didn't hack because he heard he posted some fpvods. Louders ignorance coupled with his inability to accept that Dino probably hacked in WCG makes for a pretty empty argument on the behalf of a guy who (unlike testie) has done NOTHING to ask for forgiveness or work towards peace with the community. He laughed about it and admits it daily.
Fucking sick. But what is sicker is people can NOT hate a guy like that.
I said I didn't know about the "estro" think, not that I didn't know about the VODs. What more proof could you want beyond playing on the best known AH and making VODs? Many people without dual core or better can't make decent FPVODs without problems so having some not work is not exactly a red flag .. I've used Camtasia for years and seen it do a lot of really strange shit.
Anywho, what Bryce just said is the first I've ever heard about him admitting to hack vs Geoff in WCG. If that's the case obviously he should be banned. And I have to agree that the individual behavior, beyond being caught hacking, should be relevant, however... you yourself, Geoff, have said that manner doesn't matter and all that matters is that the "best player" advances. So it seems like you need to decide - if manner only matters if you're caught hacking, why should it matter at all?
Anyway, I think hackers should be banned if they're caught in an event, and banned from all events for some set amount of time, but I don't see any reason not to allow them the opportunity to redeem themselves.
No I don't have to decide.. he behavior you speak of? Not exactly dropping a few eff bombs or some shit.. it's hacking, abusing, smurfing and generally being a thorn in the side of the community. G5's "manner" and IdrA's "manner" can be discussed as sources of agony or hilarity but Dino's "manner" got brought up by you and nobody else. I don't give a fuck if he talks shit or flames or w/e.. I care that he generally has NO regard for anyone but himself (ie hacking abusing etc).
If the "manner" shit you are referring to is him laughing about it that was in response to your argument that he deserves a second chance. He doesn't deserve a second chance until he fucking asks for it, don't spoon feed an alligator, you'll get bitten.
You know despite WCG USA being the same shit-fest it is every year, I like our chances of fielding a more competent SC player than Canada will this year! Yeah what a low blow... but it's America so deal with it.YEAH! AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!
All three games he posted were wins. 2-0 vs G5 and 1 of his wins vs you.
And again inc, Dino asked you to re because camtasia was fucking up for him on peaks. You said that you trusted him and just wanted to play. It's obvious you thought you were going to rape the shit out of Dino since he would be without hacks and the game would be on iccup. Otherwise, you would have simply just let Dino remake the game so he can post all the fpvods.
Dino only lost 1 game in WCG and it was to you, inc. Bringing all of this up now is utterly retarded. After you loudly proclaimed you wanted to break his arm at wcg and expose him as some noob hacker by crushing him. What changed? Do you now think he isn't as terrible as you first thought and that maybe if Dino showed up to WCG you and your friends wouldn't be able to hold hands at WCG USA finals?
nothing changed.. ask anyone that knows me my story has been pretty much the same. And I didn't re sure, but that is hardly an argument that I trust him and he isn't a hacker. It also doesn't help he later would discuss his hacking with Machine and offer to sell it.
Dino stole money from my friends in the estro tourney. Was he sorry? Nope, he laughed about it. Has he tried to explain himself? Ask for forgiveness? Absolutely not, he has continued to hack and smurf and be a general pain in the ass.. why he has lil goonies like you posting on forums hes banned from boggles my mind.
On August 04 2008 16:58 {88}iNcontroL wrote: nothing changed.. ask anyone that knows me my story has been pretty much the same. And I didn't re sure, but that is hardly an argument that I trust him and he isn't a hacker. It also doesn't help he later would discuss his hacking with Machine and offer to sell it.
Dino stole money from my friends in the estro tourney. Was he sorry? Nope, he laughed about it. Has he tried to explain himself? Ask for forgiveness? Absolutely not, he has continued to hack and smurf and be a general pain in the ass.. why he has lil goonies like you posting on forums hes banned from boggles my mind.
Dino told me he was playing you in qualifier and told me to come over and watch the rape. I didn't believe him at all and said I'd give him beer money if he won. I watched the games from his apartment while he crushed you and the same goes for G5.
You keep claiming Dino has an ICCup hack. If you're talking about jf/xiaozi after losing on iccup with ah on I dont' know what to tell you. He doesn't have an iccup hack and didn't cheat them out of money. The fact that you're still stuck on this nonsense that he has an iccup working hacking is fucking retarded. It's understandable why he thinks you're a fucking joke and just laughs in your face all the time. It's also even easier to understand why he doesn't ask for your forgiveness because he is tired of explaining shit over and over with you just saying the same stupid shit over and over. You continue to accuse him of shit you have absolutely no proof for because there just isn't proof. The first ss taken by Machine was to done on purpose to see if Machine was trolling the channel. IntrA.KingDino isn't Dino and I've already said that.