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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 08:25 darkemperor wrote:Don't take it personally Fakesteve but this month's PR is shit I think. Because what is the reason behind Jangbi's 1st spot ? #2 Leta deserves more than Jangbi. Also Flash lost fucking 3 game to Bisu and he is at spot 3 Aaaand Jaedong is nowhere in GOM yet he is still ahead of Bisu Last of all why the hell Bisu is # 5 ? Ok he is eliminated both from MSL and OSL but he reached the 3rd ELO of all time this month and defeated Flash 3 times , yet he is in rank 5. So wrong Fakesteve so wrong
....did you read what was written? It answers a lot of questons
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On January 16 2009 02:27 MrHoon wrote: I don't understand. First people say putting 3 zergs into his MSL group is a smart idea since PvZ is his best and JD/FBH/FL fans should stop bitching. And now when he loses you all say PvZ is not his best MU.
Seriously. That is how i feel when Jaedong loses and people complain he isnt playing at his best.
Mediocre powerrank at best Imo EDIT : We all know Backho would have beat Jangbi. Damn back..backho T_T
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So what happens when Leta continues to play well, and the rest of the field don't live up to their names? Leta passes them all by. It doesn't matter how safe and standard Leta plays, considering how well he does it. While it may not be enough to win a title (which is pure speculation right now, we shall see what happens), it's certainly enough that if the top players (who are at least more experienced and in some cases exceptionally strong in series play) don't play like top players, Leta deserves the rank more
Honestly, none of the players out there look like they're clear favorites for a title. Alternatively, all of the players have a shot at a title, that includes Leta.
You need a CNBC, because there are so many players that almost deserve it, which is the very thing that made this PR tough. Free is almost in a better position than Bisu, he's in a semifinal match in GOM, ok in Proleague, has exactly the same chance as Bisu right now winning the OSL, and is at least still in the MSL. He may not have looked as strong as Jangbi but IIRC he's been playing tougher opponents.
Backho deserves a CNBC; he's in the OSL and perhaps would have beaten Jangbi (I'm like 75% sure he would've beaten Jangbi, but who knows now). Too bad he can't sit up anymore.
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United States40729 Posts
I think FlaSh for #1. The only real criticism of FlaSh is that he lost to Bisu when Bisu was at the top of his game. Losing to someone who when he plays well is quite simply the best is not a problem for me. I just don't see JangBi winning consistently against anyone else in the top 8 and that's a problem when he's #1. Maybe the next month will prove me wrong. I know JangBi is good but could he beat Bisu/FlaSh/JaeDong/Best? I'm not convinced.
Oh, and BACKHOOOO !!!!
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United States40729 Posts
Everyone knows BackHo would have beaten JangBi lol.
+ Show Spoiler +God I love the BackHo fandom on tl. The enduring rumour that he's somehow really good. It's like supporting a local football team, even though they always lose.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
BackHo would not have beaten Jangbi. I know you BackHo fans are all aflutter because he beat Stork, but you are looking at the wrong person in that series when trying to find who dictated which of them won or lost. Stork lost that series, BackHo winning it was merely a side effect.
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this is like one of those marathons where someone in the lead pack falls from their bike and topples everyone around them, leaving some straggler from the back in first place across the finish line.
don't get me wrong, I love Jangbi, but man this is depressing.
Bisu come back...
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why is everyone convinced that backho would have beaten jangbi lol? backho is a living monument to mediocrity
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expected to see july, did he get bumped from the starleagues?
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From a purely results based point of view, which is what got Jangbi to first (and throwing out GOM), Backho is in the OSL (qualified in the Ro16) while Jangbi has yet to make it out of MSL's Ro32. From FS' results-based criterion that he used, Backho could arguably be more accomplished than Jangbi. I say arguably because I did not fact in PL performance, which Backho is really, really bad at. Once you factor in PL performance and ignore the results of Gom, Jangbi should probably be ranked higher than Backho; I am simply making the case that just off of results, Backho should make PR.
The same logic that places Jangbi over Bisu, Flash and Jaedong should similarly allow for Backho to at least make PR. On any given day Jangbi can beat Backho, I can believe that. But on any given day Bisu, Flash and Jaedong should mop the floor with Jangbi's body, so it is clear that results in leagues (which Backho had a lot of before he broke his back) is more important than who beats who 75% of the time.
It's unfair to say that Jangbi would have beaten Backho in GOM. 15 days ago #1 would have gone to Bisu because he's facing off a bunch of Zergs to get his place in the OSL and the MSL.
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yeah, it's a bit weird seeing jangbi at #1. hopefully he all-kills the ktf team tomorrow in WL earns his spot in this month's PR.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 16 2009 09:44 thunk wrote: From a purely results based point of view, which is what got Jangbi to first (and throwing out GOM), Backho is in the OSL (qualified in the Ro16) while Jangbi has yet to make it out of MSL's Ro32. From FS' results-based criterion that he used, Backho could arguably be more accomplished than Jangbi. I say arguably because I did not fact in PL performance, which Backho is really, really bad at. Once you factor in PL performance and ignore the results of Gom, Jangbi should probably be ranked higher than Backho; I am simply making the case that just off of results, Backho should make PR.
The same logic that places Jangbi over Bisu, Flash and Jaedong should similarly allow for Backho to at least make PR. On any given day Jangbi can beat Backho, I can believe that. But on any given day Bisu, Flash and Jaedong should mop the floor with Jangbi's body, so it is clear that results in leagues (which Backho had a lot of before he broke his back) is more important than who beats who 75% of the time.
It's unfair to say that Jangbi would have beaten Backho in GOM. 15 days ago #1 would have gone to Bisu because he's facing off a bunch of Zergs to get his place in the OSL and the MSL.
It IS fair, because BackHo is FUCKING TERRIBLE. People don't seem to understand this.
As long as ANYONE has supported BackHo, he has continued to lose over half of his games. He plays BAD. Jangbi would have destroyed him. I say this with unwavering certainty, and I know what I'm talking about.
As for the rest of your post, if you think Flash or Jaedong 'should mop the floor with Jangbi', you are not qualified to talk about who is or isn't good at StarCraft. There's so much wrong with your post I don't know how to accurately express it.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Seriously, if anyone thinks BackHo is top 10 material, please don't post in this thread. You will be shit on by me and anyone else with a lick of sense. Do not post.
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Nice read as always sir, although I would have liked zerO or effort over Yarnc. Especially zero. Maybe I am a little biased since I fucking hate that douchebag yarnc.
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United States40729 Posts
Steve, I'd never place money on BackHo beating... well... anyone. But I'll swear he's awesome 'til I'm blue in the face. It's how fanboyism works. There's just something about his style which I love. When the games will never be played I will happily bet my life that BackHo will own JangBi and if they were played I'd excuse BackHo's inevitable loss and maintain that JangBi is really good so it's not his fault. I don't maintain this because I'm ignorant. I maintain it because it's a fun pretence.
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United States40729 Posts
That said, BackHo definitely doesn't deserve a place on the PR. It's all about who is good right now and he can't even practice right now. Sucks but .
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Yea, I feel it's kind of a worthless argument because it sounds like he can't even sit up right now.
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United States2186 Posts
I agree this month is bizarre and messed up. The only one that even comes close to how much chaos it has caused is back in july when ForGG suddenly turned amazing overnight. Yes it is fair enough to hit Bisu down a couple of notches for getting knocked out of two leagues (Savior and Zero did play well even though Bisu's play was uninspired. Losing to by.hero is simply unacceptable though). There could be arguments for putting Bisu anywhere in the top 5 and I'd accept them, as in the same month he played like a noob and like a god. However, ranking Jangbi and Leta over Flash (and possibly Jaedong) is total garbage. I respect your analysis a lot FS but this month the logic doesn't hold at all on the top 3-4.
You know, I hadn't watched that many of Leta's matches, just enough to see that he didn't do anything special. I fully agreed with your conclusion of his safe & standard play; in my eyes he was just a Terran version of Best. Very solid player but not smart, and thus not capable of going far in leagues without some very favorable brackets. Then I watched Jangbi vs Leta. Sure Jangbi played nicely with some speed shuttle reaver harass. He took expansions properly, defended against the possible 2 fact properly. Nothing special, just solid Jangbi play on a map that really favors P (Dest). But Leta? You suck TvP. I'm sorry but 2 fact into CC is a beyond terrible idea when you know the enemy is going robo (the only purpose in doing so is to trick them into delaying their expansions but the fast obs would render this moot), and that defense against the reavers was pathetic. A slightly improved FBH oh boy? To have him ranked higher than Flash is an absolute insult towards the one person who is holding the Terran race together against this onslaught of imbalanced maps and great Protoss players. When you compare Bisu/Flash on Dest vs Jangbi/Leta, the level of play for both players is just at a completely different scale.
Jangbi is solid. Top 5 player certainly. But I can take your argument for putting Jangbi at #1 and change his name with Flash and it fits even better, with the exception that Flash showed an incredibly high level of play against Bisu playing the PvT of his life while Jangbi has been playing like Jangbi does, very solid with nothing special shown. No Protoss has played that well against Flash, EVER (in Jangbi's draw vs Flash on Blue Storm due to some cheese or another Flash got incredibly far behind but he made some genius moves to come back against Jangbi's uninspired play). This series was so sick that I'm writing an FE on it.
Taking games from December onwards:
Let's go over Jangbi's list: Wins vs: Jaehoon, pepe (2x), Really, Hwasin, Zero, kal, leta Losses vs: Shine[kal], effort, fantasy
Flash's list: Wins vs: chalrenge, guemchi, rock (2x), movie, jaehoon, magma (2x), casy, anytime, hyvaa, pure, effort, bisu Losses vs: Horang2, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu (3x)
Neither player has any really notable wins aside from Flash taking one game off of Bisu and I suppose his win vs Effort (whereas Jangbi lost). As I said Leta played like a noob that game and Zero/Kal are inconsistent at best vP. The only difference was that Flash lost 5 times vs 3 of the absolute best players along with a random loss to double proxy gate dt. Against Jaedong/Stork Flash played pretty poorly no question. Against Bisu however Flash played EXTRMELY well in the GOM series and pretty decently (better than any other Terran but still not at his best level) in the proleague match. And keep in mind that these maps were ridiculously in favor of P. Medusa is possibly the worst TvP map ever (5-24 without Flash as he defies imbalance), Destination is very P favored, while Autumn Wind favors P a lot midgame and T a lot lategame.
Jangbi on the other hand lost in a pretty poor manner to a mediocre Fantasy on a somewhat Protoss favored map. Vs Effort he played pretty well (solid, as always) but his suicidal attack on Effort's second nat cost him big time. His harassment was excellent but his army composition and battles were rather poor, thus losing him a lot of units needlessly. A reasonably strong performance overall. His other loss was due to a ling runby vs some noname that he easily could have prevented. How can you say this is more consistent than Flash?
Even ignoring the series against Bisu, Flash has beaten (slightly) better opponents while losing to MUCH better ones. Jangbi on the other hand has zero big time wins (I don't think proving how terrible Leta is TvP counts?).
Leta is doing the same thing except he's not as far in a tourney, has played zero top 10 players aside from Jangbi (who he got raped by), and has never shown exceptional play, just very strong standard stuff against mediocre competition and BAD play against good competition. His play against Mind was decent and wasn't terrible against Skyhigh but these guys are not even that amazing currently (Free just looked awful in that game although Leta did play properly no qualms there). Top 5 looks fine for him. #2? That's a joke.
Summary:
Flash has a comparable record to Jangbi/Leta, however his losses are to much stronger players and his play in 4 games against Bisu is absolutely incomparable to anyone other than...Bisu himself. Solid/standard players who have not shown any distinguished play should NEVER EVER be #1 without a title.
There are valid arguments for ranking Bisu at any different point in the top 5. I personally would've put him at 2 and Jaedong in the other one with Flash at a somewhat undeserved 1. However, no matter who it is, whoever gets that #1 spot is going to be somewhat undeserved because up until last night Bisu did have it without question. It's honestly a really hard question to solve and your answer is likely as good as mine: what do you do with a guy who for a bunch of games played at bonjwa level and then really sucked it up in another bunch?
Jangbi/Leta have done little to prove themselves against world class competition and have done nothing major in tournaments (And you absolutely cannot argue that Jangbi is still in GOM while Flash isn't because this is 100% brackets). You cannot say that because aside from his games vs the world's best current PvT'er, Flash has lost 3 times as has Jangbi. Except double proxygate DT, Stork, and Jaedong, are much more serious competition (and more acceptable losses even though Flash didn't play as well) than some noname ling runby, Fantasy, and Effort.
I didn't argue Jaedong's case because this is already long enough but him actually innovating something in ZvT is definitely a big step forward for both himself and the Zerg race and I consider this (and the results produced from it) a lot more important than again, solid and standard play from some proleague-only guy who plays bad people and another consistently good guy who gets lucky brackets every single tournament.
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United States40729 Posts
Lol. Ver for PR? I'm serious lol.
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I disagree with the reasoning that Stork is being placed low (though he has been shaky in the last month) because he lost to BackHo. BackHo is terrible yes, but BackHo can (rarely) play excellently (let's not forget the MSL/OSL run from Spring 08), though BackHo almost always plays like a B-Class gamer (losing to Chalrenge, TT, etc.) I'm not trying to say that BackHo is actually good, merely that he can bring out an awesome game every now and then amidst an ocean of mediocrity, and that he brought out two of them against Stork. As thus, that set shouldn't count as a real blow against Stork's ranking.
To be consistent, if Leta is on the power rank for exhibiting a solid safe style of play that carries numerous Proleague wins, let's not forget that in the opening of last proleague season when he was beginning to amass wins (and playing at roughly the same excellent quality as he is now), Leta also dropped a longer game to BackHo, proving that losing to BackHo while BackHo is displaying a rare show of solid form shouldn't be considered a major setback.
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