seeing flash not make top 10 makes me want to cry COMON BUDDY !!!
also JD will be usurped by fantasy next month im callin it!!
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dekuschrub
United States2069 Posts
seeing flash not make top 10 makes me want to cry COMON BUDDY !!! also JD will be usurped by fantasy next month im callin it!! | ||
Samurai-
Slovenia2035 Posts
On August 05 2009 08:08 Hinanawi wrote: A 67.3% overall, 6-2 last month and 72% winning rate this year for Flash is unacceptable. He'll need to bump it up to 100% (dropping any game in his weakest [and by weakest, I mean 63% win rate] matchup is unacceptable) and also magically make the rest of KT into good players so his team can advance in PL if he's going to squeak by with #9 or #10 PR in the future and hang with the likes of type-b. I've also decided to not bother watching the GOM finals (or any GOM games in the future), since we all know that $40,000 and a trip to play at Blizzcon is something that NO progamer actually cares the tiniest bit about, and people who win in GOM (Flash, Iris) should actually have that count AGAINST them, rather than for them. Iris should have been practicing for PL, and Flash should have been playing no games at all so he could be judged on hypothetical power like our friend at #3, Bisu. It all makes sense to me now. Hehe, well said | ||
Sigh
Canada2433 Posts
On August 05 2009 14:20 dekuschrub wrote: seeing flash not make top 10 makes me want to cry also JD will be usurped by fantasy next month im callin it!! Hahaha hopefully Fantasy beats JD in a superACE match, and beats him in the OSL = instant 1st place . XD | ||
darktreb
United States3014 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [OSL and MSL] + Last time I checked, the three players that knocked Flash out of OSL/MSL, Jaedong, Yarnc, and Kwanro, were all semifinalists in those leagues but whatever, guess that doesn't matter either There's no point in making this argument anymore. Flash needs to win GOM, and he needs to step up his game in 3 months for the next set of Starleagues. There's nothing left to it now - it's just the way it is. | ||
Navane
Netherlands2690 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + iris is in gom and msl finals! Next PR he should be like top 3 | ||
Dice
Korea (South)926 Posts
On August 05 2009 18:35 Navane wrote: osl / gom spoiler + Show Spoiler + iris is in gom and msl finals! Next PR he should be like top 3 + Show Spoiler + Correction: MSL semi-finals you mean. Granted he is the favorite against Kwanro and may advance to the Finals, but you never know. OSL, MSL, and GOM all had some major upsets this season. | ||
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On August 05 2009 10:06 Lebesgue wrote: Show nested quote + On August 05 2009 09:55 Severedevil wrote: On August 05 2009 09:48 luckybeni2 wrote: On August 05 2009 07:05 Severedevil wrote: On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for. Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it. He kicked over a lot of B-teamers in GOM without dropping a game; kudos, but that's hardly a colossal feat. You did not see the same game as everyone else did. July would have stomped every other terran in the ground the way he played. Flash played very well to come back and defeat him. He deserves better than being behind Skyhigh. Oh and Iris is a class better than canata. LOL no. Flash played like ass, JulyZerg kicked his knees out form under him, and then stood around looking stupid for ten minutes until Flash bit his privates off. Go and watch again the games. Especially the one on the Heartbreak Ridge. I was amazed by Flash control of his MnM army. There was a moment that his main army was surrounded by 3 dark swarms and balancing between these he was repelling attack after attack. Also his use of vessels was amazing. I remember when people where saying that he lost lost of vessels but as usually they forgot to mention that Flash was trading his vessels for defilers and it was the winning move. Seriously, that was a great series. If I could complain about July's play I would mention his 3rd game. But I think even Flash said that July became really impatient after the first 2 games and didn't follow his strategy till the end... I hate when people look at a particular game of a BoX series without keeping in mind a whole picture. People at TL really like to forget that the game is as much about skill as about having strong mind. Hi, I watched the games. In the Heartbreak Ridge game July was up 133 to 100 supply at one point. How do you get it got there? Because Flash played bad. July's control was always sloppy. In fact, after he was at a 30 supply lead and plagued a huge portion of Flash's army, all he needed to do was a-move everything and he'd have won the game. Instead he screws around with defilers, lets Flash turtle, and ends up losing. NO TOP ZERG would have lost that game after being in that point, and if you watched the games, they can play the early/early mid game even better than JulyZerg(even Jaedong). And if Flash finds himself behind in every single game against JulyZerg(who entirely threw every game), who's notoriously bad at ZvT, how do you think he'd do against, say, Jaedong? Yeah, indeed. | ||
dekuschrub
United States2069 Posts
seriously how do you lose with like 5 gas? watch july do it on heartbreak haha | ||
synapse
China13814 Posts
On August 05 2009 23:55 dekuschrub wrote: yeah flash only beat july because july apparently seems to have no idea what to do late game LOL seriously how do you lose with like 5 gas? watch july do it on heartbreak haha July is used to winning with muta micro... or when playing against Z or P Anyway, TBH, even though Flash has obviously been playing poorly (TvZ, what. -_-), many of the lower PR rankers this time around don't deserve to be on the PR either... like type-b - they seem to be on PR for meeting their (much lower) expectations, then performing very well in one or two sets. Besides, Flash dropping out of starleagues was because of two bad sets against Zergs. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 05 2009 23:55 dekuschrub wrote: yeah flash only beat july because july apparently seems to have no idea what to do late game LOL seriously how do you lose with like 5 gas? watch july do it on heartbreak haha Weren't the double gas expos depleted by then because the things only have like 2500 gas? Like he had the gas to either tech up fast or get a bunch of fast gas units off of that, but not both and couldn't sustain a heavy high gas army. I think Flash does deserve some credit for completely demolishing a gas heavy zerg army. Edit: Haha yeah I just watched it again. The way to lose as zerg with that much gas is only having 2 and a half expos worth of minerals to support it. | ||
Nylan
United States795 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Nylan
United States795 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Jeadong is the most obvious example, as half his ZvZs he goes down at a disadvantage, but pulls out a win (obviously because his opponents didn't play perfectly), and almost everytime it concludes with people congratulating Jaedong for an amazing come back. A more recent example was Iris vs Bisu's fifth match, which, of course, Bisu made some mistakes, but does that somehow make Iris bad for capitalizing on it and playing well to take the game back? Then we have Flash, who ends up making more comebacks than you can imagine because he is the best player at winning from a disadvantageous position. I'm not sure if you saw FBH vs Flash, but while FBH blundered later on in the game, Flash played out of this world to win that game. He did every possible thing you could imagine to strip that win from FBH and even called it his own best achievement. What do we get? Half the forum saying FBH got paid off to throw the game. Seriously. Not that flash played like an absolute beast from the first second he lost his tank line, but that FBH intentionally lost the game. Flash does the same thing against Shuttle, and still everyone criticizes shuttle. Only a few people point out how amazingly Flash played to come back from that position. And then the Outsider game vs July, which I'm not even sure was as big a comeback/blunder from July as people make it out to be. People like to point out that July had, what, 7 gas? But if you bothered to pay attention (I just watched the game an hour ago), July spent the entire second half of the game at very low minerals and 1000+ gas. As the game went up the disparity in his resources increased -- the dude was making 20 scourge just because of his gas excess and no minerals to back it up. The double gas expos are nice to get fast tech, but when you toss away thousands of minerals in Drones, Extractors, and Hatcheries to set up those expos and only have 2 and a half bases worth of minerals the whole game, your economy isn't that much better than a solid 2 base + mineral expo terran who knows how to macro. Everytime Flash makes a comeback, people say "Any player better than that would've beaten Flash in that situation." And that might be true -- but that's not the end of it. The point to Flash's credit is that any other terran in the situations he was in would've lost. No one, not even Fantasy, has showcased the gameplay Flash shows when he makes those comebacks. Those games don't just point out Shuttle's/FBH's/July's/Leta's faults, it shows just what Flash is capable of. That people hold Flash's wins against his talent is lame. None of this is even arguing that Flash deserves to be on the PR -- it's all in response to people who think Flash is washed up and terrible. He's played out of his mind plenty, lately. And he's had some crushing losses, but by no means is Flash definitively someone's second fiddle. He might not be in playoffs, but he was still the best proleague player (with possible exception to Bisu). He might not be as far in the OSL as Fantay, but he had a tougher group and lost tough games literally by seconds. Disappointingly lost to Kwanro, but I think he's done plenty to show he still understands how to play TvZ (He lost the series because he failed a bunker rush. His fault, of course, but it didn't show any particular lack of skill from him). Flash isn't second fiddle to anyone. Still the best TvT, and arguably (and kind of embarassingly for terrans) still the best at TvZ just through virtue of his ability to control both mech AND bio. Fantasy is definitely better at TvP. When people want to call Flash second fiddle to Fantasy, it's like they don't realize that Flash is better in one match up, Fantasy is better in one match up, and it fluctuates on who's better at TvZ (frankly I wouldn't consider Fantasy much of a favorite over Kwanro, either. It's hard to mech against someone so aggressive). Flash is still very much in the running for best Terran, he just gets tougher draws for him, personally, in leagues than Fantasy (Both group stages were protoss + someone he was the favorite to, Flash had the worst OSL group and, like Fantasy, 2-0'd his MSL group, but got put in his weak match (vs aggressive zerg), where Fantasy got...eliminated by a tougher opponent, but in his stronger match up (vp against Bisu), welp). | ||
okum
France5776 Posts
Bisu deserves a big drop now because his performances haven't been good. Especially vs Iris. Bisu got a slight lead in most of the games through cheese and then lost through a combination of poor macro and inefficient tactics. In the matches (1 & 3) where he didn't cheese to get the early advantage, Iris just outplayed him from start to finish. And before the Bisu fanboys jump in: I was hoping Bisu for win. I was hoping for him to take Iris down in usual style with a combination of humiliating cheese and late-game macro steamroll. I like Bisu when he does that, and would've loved to see him more than anyone else in a starleague final against Jaedong. But right now Bisu is delivering even worse letdowns than Flash. In fact, there are some parallels to Bisu's vT against Iris and July's vT against Flash, both having ineffective mid/late game tactics that allowed their opponents to recover from a disadvantage. This comparison shouldn't be taken to far, though -- on the whole, Bisu did play better than July (and that's why he went 2-3 rather than 0-3). Bisu suffered from Iris very effective harassment while July's problems seemed more self-inflicted (but then, Flash has this way of somehow passively making his opponents play worse -- or at least make it look that way). I don't buy the argument that Flash's win against July doesn't count -- even with July's mistakes, Flash put up a solid performance. I don't particularly mind Flash's vacation from the PR, though -- there is no shortage of other players doing well right now. Anyway, there's no question that Iris is on fire. If he puts up a good fight against Flash (I don't expect him to win, but who knows), he should be top three contender for next month. And that's without even considering his chances in the MSL. | ||
Nylan
United States795 Posts
On August 06 2009 03:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: Your argument is if someone has an advantage and doesn't make a mistake, then they will win. Well gosh, what a great argument. Have fun showing me any example of any game ever where someone didn't make a mistake to win, that didn't end in five minutes or less(some bunker rushes are executed perfectly but defended poorly, so I'll give you those if you want). Hint: It doesn't happen, and will never happen. The point is comebacks happen, and most of the time, people acknowledge the winner who made the comeback as the guy who pulled through, as opposed to the loser "throwing" the game away. Jeadong is the most obvious example, as half his ZvZs he goes down at a disadvantage, but pulls out a win (obviously because his opponents didn't play perfectly), and almost everytime it concludes with people congratulating Jaedong for an amazing come back. A more recent example was Iris vs Bisu's fifth match, which, of course, Bisu made some mistakes, but does that somehow make Iris bad for capitalizing on it and playing well to take the game back? Then we have Flash, who ends up making more comebacks than you can imagine because he is the best player at winning from a disadvantageous position. I'm not sure if you saw FBH vs Flash, but while FBH blundered later on in the game, Flash played out of this world to win that game. He did every possible thing you could imagine to strip that win from FBH and even called it his own best achievement. What do we get? Half the forum saying FBH got paid off to throw the game. Seriously. Not that flash played like an absolute beast from the first second he lost his tank line, but that FBH intentionally lost the game. Flash does the same thing against Shuttle, and still everyone criticizes shuttle. Only a few people point out how amazingly Flash played to come back from that position. And then the Outsider game vs July, which I'm not even sure was as big a comeback/blunder from July as people make it out to be. People like to point out that July had, what, 7 gas? But if you bothered to pay attention (I just watched the game an hour ago), July spent the entire second half of the game at very low minerals and 1000+ gas. As the game went up the disparity in his resources increased -- the dude was making 20 scourge just because of his gas excess and no minerals to back it up. The double gas expos are nice to get fast tech, but when you toss away thousands of minerals in Drones, Extractors, and Hatcheries to set up those expos and only have 2 and a half bases worth of minerals the whole game, your economy isn't that much better than a solid 2 base + mineral expo terran who knows how to macro. Everytime Flash makes a comeback, people say "Any player better than that would've beaten Flash in that situation." And that might be true -- but that's not the end of it. The point to Flash's credit is that any other terran in the situations he was in would've lost. No one, not even Fantasy, has showcased the gameplay Flash shows when he makes those comebacks. Those games don't just point out Shuttle's/FBH's/July's/Leta's faults, it shows just what Flash is capable of. That people hold Flash's wins against his talent is lame. None of this is even arguing that Flash deserves to be on the PR -- it's all in response to people who think Flash is washed up and terrible. He's played out of his mind plenty, lately. And he's had some crushing losses, but by no means is Flash definitively someone's second fiddle. He might not be in playoffs, but he was still the best proleague player (with possible exception to Bisu). He might not be as far in the OSL as Fantay, but he had a tougher group and lost tough games literally by seconds. Disappointingly lost to Kwanro, but I think he's done plenty to show he still understands how to play TvZ (He lost the series because he failed a bunker rush. His fault, of course, but it didn't show any particular lack of skill from him). Flash isn't second fiddle to anyone. Still the best TvT, and arguably (and kind of embarassingly for terrans) still the best at TvZ just through virtue of his ability to control both mech AND bio. Fantasy is definitely better at TvP. When people want to call Flash second fiddle to Fantasy, it's like they don't realize that Flash is better in one match up, Fantasy is better in one match up, and it fluctuates on who's better at TvZ (frankly I wouldn't consider Fantasy much of a favorite over Kwanro, either. It's hard to mech against someone so aggressive). Flash is still very much in the running for best Terran, he just gets tougher draws for him, personally, in leagues than Fantasy (Both group stages were protoss + someone he was the favorite to, Flash had the worst OSL group and, like Fantasy, 2-0'd his MSL group, but got put in his weak match (vs aggressive zerg), where Fantasy got...eliminated by a tougher opponent, but in his stronger match up (vp against Bisu), welp). When you start a post with "your argument was" when the previous post presented no argument, it is a strawman. The only example I'll give you of the saying I've heard is the JD v Bisu Bo5 in GOM. One-sided rapes both ways. Sorry to have wasted your time with that wall of Flash text. You are Flash's biggest fan in my eyes. You also have a very short temper. | ||
okum
France5776 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 06 2009 03:20 Nylan wrote: Show nested quote + On August 06 2009 03:10 TwoToneTerran wrote: Your argument is if someone has an advantage and doesn't make a mistake, then they will win. Well gosh, what a great argument. Have fun showing me any example of any game ever where someone didn't make a mistake to win, that didn't end in five minutes or less(some bunker rushes are executed perfectly but defended poorly, so I'll give you those if you want). Hint: It doesn't happen, and will never happen. The point is comebacks happen, and most of the time, people acknowledge the winner who made the comeback as the guy who pulled through, as opposed to the loser "throwing" the game away. Jeadong is the most obvious example, as half his ZvZs he goes down at a disadvantage, but pulls out a win (obviously because his opponents didn't play perfectly), and almost everytime it concludes with people congratulating Jaedong for an amazing come back. A more recent example was Iris vs Bisu's fifth match, which, of course, Bisu made some mistakes, but does that somehow make Iris bad for capitalizing on it and playing well to take the game back? Then we have Flash, who ends up making more comebacks than you can imagine because he is the best player at winning from a disadvantageous position. I'm not sure if you saw FBH vs Flash, but while FBH blundered later on in the game, Flash played out of this world to win that game. He did every possible thing you could imagine to strip that win from FBH and even called it his own best achievement. What do we get? Half the forum saying FBH got paid off to throw the game. Seriously. Not that flash played like an absolute beast from the first second he lost his tank line, but that FBH intentionally lost the game. Flash does the same thing against Shuttle, and still everyone criticizes shuttle. Only a few people point out how amazingly Flash played to come back from that position. And then the Outsider game vs July, which I'm not even sure was as big a comeback/blunder from July as people make it out to be. People like to point out that July had, what, 7 gas? But if you bothered to pay attention (I just watched the game an hour ago), July spent the entire second half of the game at very low minerals and 1000+ gas. As the game went up the disparity in his resources increased -- the dude was making 20 scourge just because of his gas excess and no minerals to back it up. The double gas expos are nice to get fast tech, but when you toss away thousands of minerals in Drones, Extractors, and Hatcheries to set up those expos and only have 2 and a half bases worth of minerals the whole game, your economy isn't that much better than a solid 2 base + mineral expo terran who knows how to macro. Everytime Flash makes a comeback, people say "Any player better than that would've beaten Flash in that situation." And that might be true -- but that's not the end of it. The point to Flash's credit is that any other terran in the situations he was in would've lost. No one, not even Fantasy, has showcased the gameplay Flash shows when he makes those comebacks. Those games don't just point out Shuttle's/FBH's/July's/Leta's faults, it shows just what Flash is capable of. That people hold Flash's wins against his talent is lame. None of this is even arguing that Flash deserves to be on the PR -- it's all in response to people who think Flash is washed up and terrible. He's played out of his mind plenty, lately. And he's had some crushing losses, but by no means is Flash definitively someone's second fiddle. He might not be in playoffs, but he was still the best proleague player (with possible exception to Bisu). He might not be as far in the OSL as Fantay, but he had a tougher group and lost tough games literally by seconds. Disappointingly lost to Kwanro, but I think he's done plenty to show he still understands how to play TvZ (He lost the series because he failed a bunker rush. His fault, of course, but it didn't show any particular lack of skill from him). Flash isn't second fiddle to anyone. Still the best TvT, and arguably (and kind of embarassingly for terrans) still the best at TvZ just through virtue of his ability to control both mech AND bio. Fantasy is definitely better at TvP. When people want to call Flash second fiddle to Fantasy, it's like they don't realize that Flash is better in one match up, Fantasy is better in one match up, and it fluctuates on who's better at TvZ (frankly I wouldn't consider Fantasy much of a favorite over Kwanro, either. It's hard to mech against someone so aggressive). Flash is still very much in the running for best Terran, he just gets tougher draws for him, personally, in leagues than Fantasy (Both group stages were protoss + someone he was the favorite to, Flash had the worst OSL group and, like Fantasy, 2-0'd his MSL group, but got put in his weak match (vs aggressive zerg), where Fantasy got...eliminated by a tougher opponent, but in his stronger match up (vp against Bisu), welp). When you start a post with "your argument was" when the previous post presented no argument, it is a strawman. The only example I'll give you of the saying I've heard is the JD v Bisu Bo5 in GOM. One-sided rapes both ways. Sorry to have wasted your time with that wall of Flash text. You are Flash's biggest fan in my eyes. You also have a very short temper. I'm...not mad? Indignant, maybe, but not mad. Also you did have an argument, in the post before the "I'm allergic to strawmen" one. Which is weird because it was less of a strawman argument and more of an analogy to make a point. On the other hand, I'm totally a huge Flash fan but that's never stopped me from admitting his faults, or even maligned my opinion about who the best players are. Back during Bacchus 1 and GSI, Flash was the best player around, but since then it's either been Bisu or Jaedong (Mostly Jaedong) who's the best player, maybe with a little exception to Stork. | ||
Hieros
United States83 Posts
(1)It has been said that comebacks are only possible in Starcraft if the player with an advantage makes a mistake. While I don't think that's a universal statement, it describes most comebacks perfectly. It also describes July's late-game play. (2)Your argument is if someone has an advantage and doesn't make a mistake, then they will win. Well gosh, what a great argument. When you start a post with "your argument was" when the previous post presented no argument, it is a strawman. (Bolded numbers mine.) ? Perhaps argument wasn't the best word, perhaps "adage", "truism", "premise", "hypothesis" come to mind, but he was indeed dispelling the notion of that as a coherent idea, and if you did not want yourself associate with it, why did you post that? Moreover the premise seems to be an underlying thread in at least some of the posts here. Just because someone didn't advance a particular argument phrased as such does not necessarily imply that invoking it counts as a "straw man". (1) is equivalent to (2), so the entirety of the first quote would be equivalent to (2) with the proviso that it generally, but not always, describes most situations. | ||
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