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I am only bronze and nowhere near a pro. In fact, my opinion is so lowly (only 30 games played) I expect to be shut down immediately. That being said, in my experience a 2 gate is really easy to beat. It is so common in PvP that I early scout and wall off completely with gateway/forge and 2 cannons, then get a fast void ray out with perhaps a single stalker to supplement the cannons and deal with anything sneaky.
By the time your void ray gets out they are really hurting by being denied an early win and being so behind on tech and economy. Usually u can kill most of their zealots with ur void rays and then kill any cybernetic powering pylons to deny stalkers.
... thoughts?
edit/ i am only bronze but just got the game and have played other RTS'es, not a micro/macro nub at all. im 13-11 right now (big whoop) and frequently beat high silvers and mid level golds, so im not a 2-29 bronze or anything is all im saying.
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On August 27 2010 08:42 mprs wrote:after holding it off, wouldn't it be better to just build a 3rd gate and just end the game right there
I'm sure it has the potential to end the game faster, but I enjoy standard play, and at the time, felt that my lead was not huge enough to warrant an all-in such as 3-4 gate because I had not caused any economic damage to him.
If you'll notice, I tried to continue to tech while defending, thus guaranteeing a victory.
Either way though, you are correct, it would have been a faster finish.
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would it really make this build obsolete? first 3 zealots would be delayed by 5 seconds (2 from first gate, 1 from the other. with chronoboost) no?
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I admittedly exaggerated, but it would make 10/10 a lot more all-in.
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but 4gate cheese might be in danger of becoming obsolete tho.
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4gate gets stronger, actually. The changes makes absolutely no difference in how fast you can tech to 4gate. The only change is that the second set of zealots warps in 5 seconds slower, but when does this ever make a difference?
The reason why 4 gate becomes a stronger build is because 2 gate aggression (the thing that counters 4 gate) is now less effective.
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the cooldown becomes longer, so now you need more time to warp things in, no? how does it get stronger
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like for 4gate cheese, you would get the first 4 zealots at the same time, but second wave would take longer than it is now, is my understanding
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I think this would still work if you could proxy it though or even proxy 1 gate.
EDIT: damn someone beat me to it
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On August 28 2010 04:57 whoopadeedoo wrote: I admittedly exaggerated, but it would make 10/10 a lot more all-in. 10/10 is quite an all-in build anyway in high levels. edit: I probably have to put quotation mark around the "high levels" part.
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Ya, but the changes make it even more all-in than it already is, making it less attractive (hence my exaggerated "goodbye" )
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If you go 2 gate you need to proxy imo because it basically is a allin in most occasions. If you zealot pressure is in some way stopped by stalkers you have lost no matter that you still have a base and decent economy etc. The only risk with proxing is that you run against someone who just does this build in base in which case it comes down to a massive micro fight where he has a slight advantage. A 10/10 gate build is already at disadvantage against some builds though, like 12 gate/13 gate if they scouted you properly.
The 2 replays from the cybercore wall failing also don't really convince me. The defense wasn't played too great in these and with great micro it can be pulled off imo. For example it's possible to go 1 zealot (while cyber is building) then 1 stalker chronoboosted and then 1 sentry. The sentry arrives just in time if done well to forcefield and let the gateway survive a bit. After that good play with several stalkers can be enough.
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On August 28 2010 05:15 viraltouch wrote: like for 4gate cheese, you would get the first 4 zealots at the same time, but second wave would take longer than it is now, is my understanding
Yep ... only the second wave will take 5 seconds longer. This never makes a difference though. Either your opponent will have tech built (no difference) or 4 gated (no difference).
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The 2 replays from the cybercore wall failing also don't really convince me. The defense wasn't played too great in these and with great micro it can be pulled off imo. For example it's possible to go 1 zealot (while cyber is building) then 1 stalker chronoboosted and then 1 sentry. The sentry arrives just in time if done well to forcefield and let the gateway survive a bit. After that good play with several stalkers can be enough.
I can't view the replay at work, but I don't remember having anywhere close to the resources required to do what you're suggesting. Again, we're talking about a standard 12 gate+core build. If you have some other creative wall build that works, post it.
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On August 27 2010 09:36 ichangedmyname wrote: I am only bronze and nowhere near a pro. In fact, my opinion is so lowly (only 30 games played) I expect to be shut down immediately. That being said, in my experience a 2 gate is really easy to beat. It is so common in PvP that I early scout and wall off completely with gateway/forge and 2 cannons, then get a fast void ray out with perhaps a single stalker to supplement the cannons and deal with anything sneaky.
By the time your void ray gets out they are really hurting by being denied an early win and being so behind on tech and economy. Usually u can kill most of their zealots with ur void rays and then kill any cybernetic powering pylons to deny stalkers.
... thoughts?
edit/ i am only bronze but just got the game and have played other RTS'es, not a micro/macro nub at all. im 13-11 right now (big whoop) and frequently beat high silvers and mid level golds, so im not a 2-29 bronze or anything is all im saying.
Let's do the math here: Forge + two cannons = 150+150x2 = 450 Minerals. The moment you put down those stuff, you are economically far behind (10/10 gate sacrifice a lot of economy, but still come on top against 450 mineral difference.) If i don't engage them, static defense is, well, just being static. On the other hand, I can use those mineral to tech, build probes, or even expand. Now, at bronze level, people probably won't know how to take advantage of this (I'm not trying to be offensive here.. I'm just stating the chances) and might look like you "came on top by superior decision making" and won.
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On August 28 2010 05:46 whoopadeedoo wrote:Ya, but the changes make it even more all-in than it already is, making it less attractive (hence my exaggerated "goodbye" )
Hmm I can see it screwing up the build order a bit.. but enemy zealots are delayed all the same right? I think we'll have to see what happens..
Man I can't believe they nerfed zealot now it's gonna be even harder to defend against my aggressive zerg friends..
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U have to take probes off now vs every 6-9 pool or completely wall off it seems.
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On August 28 2010 05:47 Markwerf wrote: If you go 2 gate you need to proxy imo because it basically is a allin in most occasions. If you zealot pressure is in some way stopped by stalkers you have lost no matter that you still have a base and decent economy etc. The only risk with proxing is that you run against someone who just does this build in base in which case it comes down to a massive micro fight where he has a slight advantage. A 10/10 gate build is already at disadvantage against some builds though, like 12 gate/13 gate if they scouted you properly.
The 2 replays from the cybercore wall failing also don't really convince me. The defense wasn't played too great in these and with great micro it can be pulled off imo. For example it's possible to go 1 zealot (while cyber is building) then 1 stalker chronoboosted and then 1 sentry. The sentry arrives just in time if done well to forcefield and let the gateway survive a bit. After that good play with several stalkers can be enough. If you're interested, PM me and we can test this out.
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Hi guys,
I am new to the game and just tried this build for the first time, it was against a cannon rusher. After he rush fails he acused me to be map hacking and I dicided to watch the replay to see why.
But now I am thinkin that he was map hacking, look how he sent 5 probes to kill mine to prevent my scout just before I get into his base and how he constantly "looks" at my pylon/gates.
Is he a possible map hacker? Should I report him or am I just being too neurotic about it?
Heres the replay:
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