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Alright, I see what you guys are comming from - what pisses me off is not the whole "u fake your apm"comments, but that I"m not getting what I came here to ask. I brought up that whole APM comment after Hasuwar does his sarcastic bullshit of "you are top 5 europes 300 apms" as the first reply in the other thread. I've called a stop to the APM and more of what I did strategically wrong futilely.
Archon_Wing has summed it up exactly. If i was fucking good, I would be known - do you see me going "yeah, I could have taken out [red]nada last week its just I was kinda tired, you know". No. I thought I would present a replay so that my lack of strategic ability could be better analyzed. Can I think better in the game? Yes, everyone can. The reason I didn't use my "gosu" apm to push was becuase I don't know how to, yes, that's about right and why I made this post.
Again, I'm getting a lot of shit "You didn't siege tanks lolz!!!", "Lay mines!", cool. I asked this not for people to determine whether I"m keybashing or not - I asked HOW to push, several posters here have helped me a lot concerning this issue. Hulkmania's post is nice, but it belongs in "DOES APM MATTER?" thread. Your points are very valid, I started playing when BWChart was already out, I'm not an "old school leetz0r player".
There isn't much more I have to say, if I was in an "apm daydream" I wouldn't come here asking for help and instead I'd stay in Clan x17 and brag about a faked wgtour record. I love how it's a double edged blade, if I lose to a low apm player I suck, becuase I"m higher apm and therefore I have a larger penis and it's a shame that I lost to someone like that. I came here to ask for help regarding pushing and posted a replay so people could see the lack of pushing skill I have, not so people could save it, hit refresh on their bwchart, and go "LOL U LOST TO 89 APM TOSS KAKAKA U SUX!"
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On December 09 2004 14:25 HULKAMANIA wrote: quit raping your keyboard.
lmao
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exalted, let it rest. you got the point already right? push = laying mines, seiging, turrets. that's what a push is. alot of times this advice came condescendingly because that shit is basic so it's hard not to laugh our asses off at you, and other times it didnt -- some people are nicer than others. i think why the former dwelled on it so much is that you have high apm w/o basic concept of sc which translates to penis envy of the pros with high apm like nada. be a good sport, filter the good from the bad, keep your ego tame and move on.
as a follow up, how about posting a tvp where you've displayed what you've learned in this thread?
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Before anyone decides to add any additional comments about spamming APM please answer this God damned question:
I mean, why the hell would anyone show off a replay of them with high APM but they lost? Does that make any sense? Really? Does it?
And yea, post a rep of you losing to someone with someone 1/3 of your apm. An excellent way of showing off. -_- It's simply a moronic ASSUMPTION.
Now, if someone had posted a rep of them with 500 apm and said something like "I PWN 64 apm n00b, comments?" then these complaints would have some legitmacy. Exalted is not losing his games because he spams. He is losing because of lack of experience/knowledge of tvp and pushing. (I'm not saying I could do better...) Scrolling may be one factor, but THAT HAS BEEN BEATEN TO DEATH. It has been stoned, deep fried, and roasted to ashes. And FFS, repetition is a good way for some people to not forget shit. Am I the only one that gets annoyed when I press the wrong key and it fucks me over? And did this shit start only after BWChart was released? Maybe some people but those people are fools and delusional. It is falacious to assume that someone would spam just to increase an irrelevant number. Isn't winning the better way of showing off? Am I the only person that has problems with the concept of someone showing off and asking for help?
I have no ill will towards anyone in this thread. What I don't like is that people are bashing someone asking for help when this person does not pretend to know everything.
Anyhow, I have little to add regarding gameplay simply because I suck (so take with five grains of salt) and I don't want to repeat of the excellent advice of the people who bothered giving it. Correct me if necessary.
- When your push gets owned, I think it's best to try and preserve your tanks. Suicide your vultures if you must, tanks are just too vaulable to lose.
- One thing I really didn't like is that every time you came ahead in a battle, you would immediately pick everything up and head toward the enemy. The result is whatever was left dies to reinforcement, and you lose whatever advantage you earned. It would be better IMO, to gain some ground and to reinforce your push with new units from your base. Getting a network of turrets, mines and tanks is a fucking pain in the ass for weak toss users like me to handle. Now, no need to to overly cautious. If you scan and he's got 3 zeals left go and take him out. But as you might have realized this is not always the case. Send a scout, a vulture, a scv, or something to check on him. Anything so you don't get massively suprised and flanked.
- Avoid clumping tanks unless you want to be like Tornado Nada style.
- Oh yea, maybe you should float your ebay or another building over your cliff. Storm drops= no thx.
Hope something I said helps.
BTW, this shit is not that obvious. If it was, then the answer to every thread, would be scout, see what your enemy builds, build the apporiate counter, macro, micro, kill his units and destroy his base. But that's not productive is it?
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:D you played my friend mikey. He is low apm, but somehow, easily wins most of his games just through macro and whatnot. I obsed him take out some kt.mgw)s easy :O. Me and SeSuj are two out of the three teachers in K'-'n's old profile ;o
Anyways, I know I should be taking advice instead of giving it, and that's what I have been doing thus far ever since I registered. But, in order to make my post not a complete waste of time and bragging space, I figured that in 9vs6, pushing isn't the most practical of options, I've found that protoss has somewhat easy defend as the choke is not as constrained as let's say, 3. That first attempt at a contain sort of failed miserably and that's what I think lost it for you. I figure that you should move out with more units to avoid that sort of disaster.
Anyways, don't really credit my post to much, as I am still learning :o
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More tanks, less vultures
I made a huge mistake awhile ago by going mass vultures with little tank support. Somehow, tanks will always bail you out of a bad push. I noticed you only made tanks out of 2 factories, whereas it's more advantageous coming out of 3 after you wait about 4 minutes after the 5th ro 6th factory is completed.
All I know is that more tanks and less vultures is always better than vice versa. If you're going to make tons of vultures, for the love of god either use them early on to overwhelm a fast expanding toss OR mind the whole fucking map. But, you were using them to fight 1 on 1 with toss troops. That's suicide.
By the way, 9/6 positions you should be using starport strategy. Slows Toss down ALOT,.
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On December 09 2004 04:15 Verbloten wrote: i think i worked out why you lost that exalted!
00:14:35 exalted Hotkey Select,3 00:14:35 exalted Hotkey Select,4 00:14:35 exalted Hotkey Select,3 00:14:35 exalted Hotkey Select,4 00:14:35 exalted Hotkey Select,1 00:14:36 exalted Hotkey Select,3 00:14:36 exalted Hotkey Select,4 00:14:36 exalted Hotkey Select,3 00:14:36 exalted Hotkey Select,4 00:14:36 exalted Hotkey Select,3 00:14:36 exalted Hotkey Select,4 00:14:36 exalted Hotkey Select,5 00:14:36 exalted Hotkey Select,6
If you spend all your time doing this sort of useless shit then you forgot to actually play. Instead of doing the above every 3-5 seconds for the entire game - it would have probably made more sense to mix in a few "Trains" and "Attacks" between the hotkeys being selected.... I dunno - just an idea.
Oh and another thing - just in case you hadn't figured it out yet - when you get an apm of 300+ it doesn't make you a gosu korean pro-gamer... especially if it is "hollow" apm. It is absolutely no wonder that a guy with apm of 90 can own your arse.
haha
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I finished the second rep just now and have some comments / Ideas
First whether your APM dictates this or not I am impressed with how well you power units. (I wish I could as well as you do many of my games would be in my favour if I could)
But it looks as if you tendto focus on killing his units. That sounds strange but there were many chances you could have dones serious harm to his econ. For quite some time you had scanned his Min only, and then scouted 3 with your Vults. what I think you did not notice, or realize (please do not take this as an insult) is that after laying their mines you could proceed to wreck his min only probes which would(presumably) draw some units up the ramp, and into Mines.(Just the assumption) And you had such an alarming number of vults, drops 4-8-12 however many Ships you can get. you seem to enjoy expanding without having gained signifigant advantage (such as many worker kills or killing several units) which can be risky. I personally enjoy using 2 fact Port openings genericly, unless the situation Direly calls for differant (IE Gas rush) Because it allows me to drop Vults or tank vults into money and to use tanks on cliffs for more advantage before expanding and moving up to more fact macro.
I hope this does not sound condecending, because I do not think I am so much better then you I have any right to talk down(I don't even think im better then you playing) But TvP is a very economicaly intense game. Both players will want to use their tricks and gimmicks to score worker kills, vult drops reaver drops DT rush Tank cliffing Gas rush ect. A good portion of the early game is trying to decide whos econ is going to be stronger going into mid game. If yours is stronger, produce some tanks lay some mines, turret outside his base and freely Expo as he helplessly masses to break through your push. If you are behind good luck to you(!) you can hold off his troops while expoing but chances are he'll double expo and its down hill from there.
Allthough I am impressed with your playing it is small things like Mines, turrets, harassment that cause your game to falter. Please PM me if you would like to game (I mostly play T but I used to be decent with toss) Your playing is so very differant then mine I think it would intresting.
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yeah ok
if you have more shit then him just keep it compact and move until he stands his ground, siege a few rear tanks and backup the rest letting him get splashed before the fight begins. this way your vults live instead of losing them and still winning.
if you have less shit but would win if mostly sieged, you should be mostly sieged all the time. it's 100x harder though and even then not worth it mostly.
if the game is close it's probably best to critical mass and then flat outcontrol him. 15+ vults and 12 tanks minimum, keep it tight. the shape you're in when the fight begins is everything. siege 1/2 the tanks, lay a bunch of mines and aimkill zealots coming in from the side first, then siege the other 1/2.
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Yup, I noticed that you could have seriously slowed him down by taking yoru first 4 tanks and attacking much quicker than you did would have changed the outcome drastically. You allowed the toss to secure his natural and accumulate troops before you even attacked. And..you didn't even attack...you just sieged outside his choke. Any protoss in that position would have easily broken the terran contain because of the leeway you've given him in the opening minutes of the game.
I notice you don't believe in slow pushes either. The tanks and vultures rallied were immediately sent into battle without preparation or proper scouting. My rule for pushing is if you are behind, push slow, if you are ahead, push fast-you have a prediliction for fast pushes regardless of troop count. Not a good idea.
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United States10774 Posts
On December 09 2004 18:42 exalted wrote: Alright, I see what you guys are comming from - what pisses me off is not the whole "u fake your apm"comments, but that I"m not getting what I came here to ask. I brought up that whole APM comment after Hasuwar does his sarcastic bullshit of "you are top 5 europes 300 apms" as the first reply in the other thread. I've called a stop to the APM and more of what I did strategically wrong futilely.
Archon_Wing has summed it up exactly. If i was fucking good, I would be known - do you see me going "yeah, I could have taken out [red]nada last week its just I was kinda tired, you know". No. I thought I would present a replay so that my lack of strategic ability could be better analyzed. Can I think better in the game? Yes, everyone can. The reason I didn't use my "gosu" apm to push was becuase I don't know how to, yes, that's about right and why I made this post.
Again, I'm getting a lot of shit "You didn't siege tanks lolz!!!", "Lay mines!", cool. I asked this not for people to determine whether I"m keybashing or not - I asked HOW to push, several posters here have helped me a lot concerning this issue. Hulkmania's post is nice, but it belongs in "DOES APM MATTER?" thread. Your points are very valid, I started playing when BWChart was already out, I'm not an "old school leetz0r player".
There isn't much more I have to say, if I was in an "apm daydream" I wouldn't come here asking for help and instead I'd stay in Clan x17 and brag about a faked wgtour record. I love how it's a double edged blade, if I lose to a low apm player I suck, becuase I"m higher apm and therefore I have a larger penis and it's a shame that I lost to someone like that. I came here to ask for help regarding pushing and posted a replay so people could see the lack of pushing skill I have, not so people could save it, hit refresh on their bwchart, and go "LOL U LOST TO 89 APM TOSS KAKAKA U SUX!"
Well, about your question on how to push, it has already been answered. I dunno why you are saying you have not gotten what you wanted.
seige tanks, build turrets, and lay mines.
What people are trying to say is, instead of pressing all those hotkeys, build few more turrets and lay few more mines.
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i just played a money map (on accident). in the game, i made 5rax, pumped out m&m, and sent the across the map without micro. that reminds me of your three games i saw (including the two v. tree).
it's a very simple strat of just out producing your opponent. your gameplay rests on the fallacy that your decent macro will make up for complete lack of strategizing ability. like the strat of a money map and i believe thats the dominant pitfall in your game is your mindset. toss can get away (more than terran anyway) in a straight unit v unit battle as you saw his goons plus lot easily take out your vults and tank.
years ago tvp was "balanced" when players started using mines. then turrets to draw fire. your gameplay, strategy, whatever, is before that era although your apm *could be reminiscent of pros today, i'd liken it more to the macro games of money maps.
hope this helps some more - shiz
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There isn't much more to say in this thread, agreed. Since so many people seem to be interested in my progress though I will post another thread when I learn how to push (15 mins)
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play me a game msg id: shizuru i am t though =(
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I would love to have your macro genes though.
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ya i like to make guys, teroru likes to mate with them
shziru what server? I usually play on east I am exalted on all servers though.
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exalted, people make these statements simply cause ur a newb and I'll be glad to prove it in a bo3. I've seen u in op tot). With the discription of: "tvp specialty" and asking games to pG members ROFL. Now I see this u lose to one of the worst p gamers and post for advice. Haha you're one funny guy T.T
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Too much facts and tanks are too close zeal bomb can destroy them all.
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