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There seems to be a lot of balance whining in LR threads that goes completely unmoderated. There are better places to discuss the state of balance between the races - the weekly Community Feedback Update threads are a great place to go for example - but I don't think it has a place in LR threads.
I think the balance whining is a problem in 3 overlapping ways. First is the blatant balance whine; explicitly claiming that a race is broken or OP, or that one race cannot possibly win against another. + Show Spoiler [Examples] +
If it is a one-off post in frustration then I could understand a bit of leniency, but this brings me to the second issue; people who complain a lot, and at seemingly every opportunity. I will stick with Charoisaur and TvP as an example. Here are all of Charoisaur's post about protoss and TvP from the last 2 weeks of Pro-League + Show Spoiler [Charoisaur's Posts] ++ Show Spoiler [KT vs SKT] +On April 18 2016 19:00 Charoisaur wrote:3 rax opening seems really bad because there is no way to pressure the protoss in the first 10-15 minutes of the game while protoss can do whatever he wants On April 18 2016 19:04 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2016 19:02 seemsgood wrote:On April 18 2016 19:00 Charoisaur wrote: 3 rax opening seems really bad because there is no way to pressure the protoss in the first 10-15 minutes of the game while protoss can do whatever he wants It only can punish protoss if he goes super fast third.But with 2 bases timing into 3rd,you only can defend. How that? Protoss can defend everything with supply structures + Show Spoiler [MVP vs Jin Air] +On April 18 2016 19:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2016 19:49 seemsgood wrote:On April 18 2016 19:47 MiniFotToss wrote:On April 18 2016 19:46 seemsgood wrote: Don't even try to bullshit vs protoss. I mean, there's a reason that we have "The great book of PROTOSS BULLSHIT" You can bullshit vs classic or zest.... or drogo Cause they play standard game everytim. And what bullshit do you do? On April 18 2016 19:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2016 19:52 seemsgood wrote:On April 18 2016 19:51 Charoisaur wrote:On April 18 2016 19:49 seemsgood wrote:On April 18 2016 19:47 MiniFotToss wrote:On April 18 2016 19:46 seemsgood wrote: Don't even try to bullshit vs protoss. I mean, there's a reason that we have "The great book of PROTOSS BULLSHIT" You can bullshit vs classic or zest.... or drogo Cause they play standard game everytim. And what bullshit do you do? Go ask maru. Haven't seen maru cheese a toss in LotV + Show Spoiler [Afreeca vs CJ] ++ Show Spoiler [SKT vs Jin Air] +On April 25 2016 21:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 21:09 Gwavajuice wrote: Well... at one point it had to happen, SKT without INno at his top is far from being invincible... not sure if Inno is slumping or tvp is just so hard. No terran seems to be able to beat good protoss players nowadays Some of those posts are fine, but many are whining about how hard terran has it and how easy it is to be protoss. I think LR threads would be better overall if that kind of constant negativity was not allowed. I am sorry to pick so heavily on Charoisaur here because there are other posters I could have chosen. I could have picked on Poopi who brought up the strength of protoss during a PvP, or on Granite who encouraged people to whine. And I am sure that the LR regulars will have their own users in mind for this kind of near-continuous whine.
Sometimes I wish I could report a user rather than a specific post. Maybe I should pick a post and in the ban reason explain that I am reporting them for a series of posts and not one extreme post.
The final problem is when a lot of users make negative posts. (I think many users have seen what can happen after a protoss wins with mass adept: posts like "Adepts, lol" are fairly common.) I may not be able to pick out one user who stands out, but I want to be able to report the thread in the hope that a mod might intervene, either with a post warning people not to whine or even a mod note at the top to say it won't be tolerated. I saw that done in old LR threads, although the LR were longer then.
I know I picked on terrans and TvP here when the other races have their own posters who will whine, but it seems more common amongst terrans and against protoss. Moreover, the whining about TvP is why I stopped watching SC2 during the blink era. I watched throughout the BL/infestor era and the problems with balance didn't stop me watching. What turned me away was the community. I stopped enjoying going to LR threads, and it became so bad that I actually hoped no terrans would qualify for tournaments so that I could watch without terrans whining in the LR threads. I started watching with the release of LotV and I am enjoying it, but it still seems okay to whine in the LR threads and that may put me off again.
I believe I wasn't the only person put off by the whining back during HotS, and I believe I am not the only one who gets annoyed by it now.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
Sometimes I wish I could report a user rather than a specific post. Maybe I should pick a post and in the ban reason explain that I am reporting them for a series of posts and not one extreme post.
While this function isn't available at the click of a button, reporting a post tends to mean that (a) moderator(s) will look at the user's post history. We rarely make decisions without considering the user's history, so reporting a user will almost certainly lead to someone looking into it. This is why you'll sometimes see users banned without a specific post attached. Similarly, we also sometimes warn users for posting tendencies rather than specific posts. However, if you feel that the matter isn't getting enough attention, it is also possible to report with one of the options that allow you to add a comment, if you feel it's necessary.
Messaging a moderator, or bringing it up in Website Feedback as you've done here, are also options. I haven't been very present for the last few months due to unrelated matters, but I appreciate you bringing it up. Naturally, balance discussion/whine should never (or at least very rarely) be allowed to progress to a level where it is detrimental to other users' experience on TL. I know "we'll work on it" can sound a bit empty, but we will.
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personally i'm of the mind that one-off balance whine shouldn't even be moderated in LR threads until it becomes pandemic and you have 5-10 people of each race taking shots at each other and having design arguments
yeah, maybe the guy you referenced does it a lot, but if they're all just one-off posts then in my opinion that's just part of spectating the game with other people, like how if you're at a sports game you'll hear people complain about officiating etc.
i don't think LR threads need "preventative" moderation as much as other places. all that's necessary is that there's a reaction when the entire thread becomes a disaster or someone is clearly trolling and being rude about it
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After a lot of weeks thinking about if this would be a good idea to do this, I've decided to come and post about this topic, only to find that someone already did...
Personally, I was more thinking about the patches/DK's feedback/balance test maps thread, cause I don't read LR thread much these days, but I realise it's the constant clueless whining that keeps me away from them.
Some guys are just spamming these forums with there non sense and I dare to say they are a cancer for this community.
Back in the days, when I first discovered TL.net, it was more "post replays of GTFO" : people having such behaviour were quickly asked to give some material proof or to just stop posting.
Nowadays, they can freely post the same stupid whines over and over again, the amount of posts these guys have is simply out of control, and everyday it hurts the sc2 forums.
I don't know why it has become this way, maybe TL.net has just stop caring about sc2, but moderation should come back imho, we're not on reddit, we can't downvote bullshit, so we're trapped with these guys and their hate for the game.
As a conclusion, I remember when I was (rightfully) warned for using the word "kappa" in a post, "keep you twitch chat bullshit meme away from TL.net" I was told.
I was totally ok with this, but today, it's not the memes that are the problem, it's the twitch chat bullshit as a whole that is invading TL.net.
Protect us.
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I don't see how any of those posts except the ones about pylons at KT - SKT (which I got rightfully warned for) are balance whine. mostly I'm just analyzing what is good to do vs protoss and what not. If I say 3 rax is bad or terran cheese is bad it's just criticizing what the player did and not that protoss is imba. and not sure if Inno is slumping or tvp is just so hard. No terran seems to be able to beat good protoss players nowadays was just an observation and I even said I'm not sure if protoss is too strong or just the players slumping or w/e.
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I'm sorry to bring this back up but I am because the Pro League grand final is on Saturday and I don't want the LR thread to be as bad as the GSL thread last Friday, which became very hostile while Dear and TY were playing.
Some examples of the posts made in that LR thread; + Show Spoiler +On August 26 2016 21:34 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 21:33 Nebuchad wrote: "Damn, the terran is winning, guess I have to stop whining now" the fact it's 1-1 is already an insult when you consider the way they played but yeah I think we should stop whining and try to enjoy the games, but adepts are so broken it's hard.
With some people going so far as to imply that Protoss players can beat better Terran opponents because of how strong Protoss isOn August 26 2016 21:36 Eiltonn wrote:lol are people retarded? you dont judge a game merely by its winner, u gotta look how the game played out. dear made a gold level mistake which cost him the game. otherwise he should have easily won. so are we gonna argue this is fine cuz terrans can win easily as long as protoss makes noobish mistakes? k
This led to sarcasm and outright insults;
On August 26 2016 21:35 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 21:34 Nebuchad wrote:On August 26 2016 21:33 Nebuchad wrote: "Damn, the terran is winning, guess I have to stop whining now" No, don't worry man, when the protoss loses, you can just say he plays bad! dear did play bad this game. are you high on bath salts?
Things were so bad that Socke commented on itOn August 26 2016 21:37 Socke wrote:whats up with all the dearhate? his build got scouted and failed, his followup was really smart for that kind of situation and almost worked. and we had a couple of posts by Teoita about how much hate Protoss getsOn August 26 2016 21:42 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 21:37 Socke wrote: whats up with all the dearhate? his build got scouted and failed, his followup was really smart for that kind of situation and almost worked. Protoss in LotV doesn't deserve credit because we win with adepts instead of blink stalkers and colossi. That's like, completely different and abusive and bullshit and broken. Also the SC2 community isn't particularly reasonable at times. On August 26 2016 21:53 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 21:46 Eiltonn wrote:On August 26 2016 21:42 Teoita wrote:On August 26 2016 21:37 Socke wrote: whats up with all the dearhate? his build got scouted and failed, his followup was really smart for that kind of situation and almost worked. Protoss in LotV doesn't deserve credit because we win with adepts instead of blink stalkers and colossi. That's like, completely different and abusive and bullshit and broken. Also the SC2 community isn't particularly reasonable at times. what argument is this? protoss has had bullshit things ever since this game started so now its fine when they keep on doing bs stuff? Of course Protoss has more bullshit things than other races (shit i personally wrote The Great Book...), but the community can't tell the difference between a good read and an abusive game so all they are left with is flaming one third of the players. Take the Dusk Towers game. Dear's read was "ok my all-in has done enough damage for me to transition, but not enough to end the game. He's forced into a very defensive position and a late stim, but he has 3CCs so he'll probably gear up for a push once his army stabilizes in a few minutes, before that i don't have much to fear. I can't catch up in both economy and upgrades, and if i invest in upgrades my economy is too shit to produce enough units, but i can definitely double expand safely, my main is mining out anyway so i need that 4th. I'll just skip forges, get a massive low tech army and crush him when he moves out to try to kill my 3rd or take his 4th", which is actually a pretty good read. The thread's comments were "lol adept allin into double expand lol protoss bullshit lol". It's incredlby toxic, especially having to mod the forum and seeing balance whining essentially only thrown at one race. On August 26 2016 22:01 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 21:58 Eiltonn wrote:On August 26 2016 21:53 Teoita wrote:On August 26 2016 21:46 Eiltonn wrote:On August 26 2016 21:42 Teoita wrote:On August 26 2016 21:37 Socke wrote: whats up with all the dearhate? his build got scouted and failed, his followup was really smart for that kind of situation and almost worked. Protoss in LotV doesn't deserve credit because we win with adepts instead of blink stalkers and colossi. That's like, completely different and abusive and bullshit and broken. Also the SC2 community isn't particularly reasonable at times. what argument is this? protoss has had bullshit things ever since this game started so now its fine when they keep on doing bs stuff? Of course Protoss has more bullshit things than other races (shit i personally wrote The Great Book...), but the community can't tell the difference between a good read and an abusive game so all they are left with is flaming one third of the players. Take the Dusk Towers game. Dear's read was "ok my all-in has done enough damage for me to transition, but not enough to end the game. He's forced into a very defensive position and a late stim, but he has 3CCs so he'll probably gear up for a push once his army stabilizes in a few minutes, before that i don't have much to fear. I can't catch up in both economy and upgrades, and if i invest in upgrades my economy is too shit to produce enough units, but i can definitely double expand safely, my main is mining out anyway so i need that 4th. I'll just skip forges, get a massive low tech army and crush him when he moves out to try to kill my 3rd or take his 4th", which is actually a pretty good read. The thread's comments were "lol adept allin into double expand lol protoss bullshit lol". It's incredlby toxic, especially having to mod the forum and seeing balance whining essentially only thrown at one race. Well Toss players get to complain when Terran BS in form of Libs rolls out (another retarded unit that seems to be a band-aid fix). And i feel like often times Protoss gets to be aggressive with prism adepts while safely expanding behind thanks to the mothership core. This just seems to be against the basic concept that u need units to defend an expansion (or two). Like the terran definitely cannot leave their base as long as the prism is around so theyre bound to some reactive style while protoss can do whatever they want for the first 10 minutes. This is obviously exaggerated but the core of it somehow seems true to me. Sure on the other hand terrans never expand behind medivacs or liberator harassment and zergs never expand behind muta harassment. Oh wait. And at least regarding TL moderation, the whining about Zerg and Terran put together doesn't come remotely close to what Protoss get, despite the fact that Ultras consistently kill Terrans once they are out and that ZvT was actually very Terran favoured until recently (and could still be in Korea).
There were some patronising responses to the people talking about the whining;
And we had this 'heated discussion' (see the nested quotes)On August 26 2016 22:21 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 22:13 Nebuchad wrote:On August 26 2016 22:09 Penev wrote:On August 26 2016 22:05 Nebuchad wrote:On August 26 2016 22:04 Penev wrote:On August 26 2016 22:03 Nebuchad wrote:On August 26 2016 22:02 Penev wrote:On August 26 2016 21:59 egrimm wrote:On August 26 2016 21:53 Teoita wrote:On August 26 2016 21:46 Eiltonn wrote: [quote]
what argument is this? protoss has had bullshit things ever since this game started so now its fine when they keep on doing bs stuff? Of course Protoss has more bullshit things than other races (shit i personally wrote The Great Book...), but the community can't tell the difference between a good read and an abusive game so all they are left with is flaming one third of the players. Take the Dusk Towers game. Dear's read was "ok my all-in has done enough damage for me to transition, but not enough to end the game. He's forced into a very defensive position and a late stim, but he has 3CCs so he'll probably gear up for a push once his army stabilizes in a few minutes, before that i don't have much to fear. I can't catch up in both economy and upgrades, and if i invest in upgrades my economy is too shit to produce enough units, but i can definitely double expand safely, my main is mining out anyway so i need that 4th. I'll just skip forges, get a massive low tech army and crush him when he moves out to try to kill my 3rd or take his 4th", which is actually a pretty good read. The thread's comments were "lol adept allin into double expand lol protoss bullshit lol". It's incredlby toxic, especially having to mod the forum and seeing balance whining essentially only thrown at one race. Exactly this. a bit like that, not exactly that people are really exaggerating this We really aren't though. yes you are I'm convinced, thanks for enlightening me. thanks, I was countering your equally convincing reply but you really are, if you have a problem with someones post you reply taht post specifically. These general the whole community is against us is getting rather pathetic, target a post or stop WHINING yourself Every protoss that hasn't left TL will tell you that it's happening. Mods, who are the first to know about balance whine cause they ban it, tell you it's happening. If you don't find that convincing, what can I do? I said you guys are exxagerating, not that there's no whine at all what you should do is just target posts specifically a lot of people are just having problems with the adept atm that's it if you reread all my posts about this topic you can see they're all reasonable and i didn't whine i'm aware of all you guys just mentioned, im actually with this site from the beginning of sc2, i have seen a lot of whine (against all races) but i've also seen people freeking out over shit even after a single post and mention tsunami's of whine immediately
In summary, the thread was fucking awful.
In the past I have sometimes seen (but not for a while) a mod note put at the top of a LR thread stating something along the lines of, "From now on (page N) anybody whining about *unit/race* will be banned." Could you bring that back please? Even if it is just for the Pro League Grand Final LR thread. I know I am not alone in finding the whining about Protoss annoying. I have seen Olli post to tell people to stop whining in some LR threads and I think my attitude towards the whole thing is best summed up with this postOn August 26 2016 21:43 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2016 21:42 Teoita wrote:On August 26 2016 21:37 Socke wrote: whats up with all the dearhate? his build got scouted and failed, his followup was really smart for that kind of situation and almost worked. Protoss in LotV doesn't deserve credit because we win with adepts instead of blink stalkers and colossi. That's like, completely different and abusive and bullshit and broken. Also the SC2 community isn't particularly reasonable at times. I mean, I don't think we should just be satisfied with saying that this forum is terrible and that we can't do anything about it. My normal reaction would be to leave, and I've tried several times, but there's nowhere else I can watch SC2 with people so I always come back here. I don't know what to do.
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I have to agree, that thread got fucking atrocious.That series to me didn't look imbalanced at all. Granted, I like Dear, but TY is my favorite player in SC2 period, so if I thought it was imbalanced I'd speak my mind. But the fact of the matter is, both played well below the level I expected them to play. Both could have won the match. In the end TY lost because he messed up too many more times than Dear and Dear deserved to win.
The thread went ballistic, all because of that one game where Dear did an adept all-in. That failed. And he lost the game. So basically for no reason. How there wasn't an entire page full of moderated comments in that thread is beyond me. I wouldn't have too much hope for the Proleague thread to be better though. I'd expect the fans of each team to go at it the entire time with a whole bunch of shitposts.
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OMG THEY ARE POSTING WRONG THINGS STOP THEM FOR THE LOVE OF GOD
LR threads aren't supposed to be the pinnacle of competitive debating, they are supposed to be a place where people who have never seen each other hang around and talk about the games. If seeing balance whine burns your eyes, you should probably either consult a doctor, or GTFO. This complaint coming from someone who doesn't even post much in LRs is equivalent to coming to a publicly open party and immediately complaining that some of the free food is not vegan. (Well, yeah, Elentos himself came to support you to give you some credibility, but let's face it, that guy is a total killjoy anyway, so who cares.)
The main thing your "evidence" has shown is how people complaining about the "whine" shit up the threads and thus if someone should be banned, let it be those people. Unfortunately, that won't happen, as half of them are staff or stuff or however that is spelled.
Anyway, I seemed to have lost my point in the meantime, but whatever. Balance whine is a sign of passion and that's what the game needs. Not a sterilized environment when each posts is a fucking peer reviewed article.
I am looking forward to the next feedback thread complaining about sparkuling jokes.
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I strongly support this thread, I completely agree with the argument made in the opening post I realised that I intentionally avoided the lr threads during the matches because reading through them made me enjoy the game way less.. I used to read this thread (I rarely post) because I don't have friends who play sc2 irl, so for me it is (was) a way of seeing my interest for the games shared by many others, but right now it's just a way to ruin the experience..
Same goes for the weekly balance thread honestly ...
I'm very happy to see that others think the same
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