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On July 04 2017 17:04 darhumewin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2017 05:50 pvsnp wrote: It's great to hear things from the Korean perspective, and especially is such a detailed interview as this one. There's definitely a lot in common between Korean fans and foreign fans but their environment and perspective is radically different at the same time.
The language and proximity barrier seems to be the largest distinction-- it's much easier to deify or demonize people living on the other side of the world. I imagine seeing players in person and not exclusively through the lens of Starcraft must go a long way towards humanizing even the most aloof progamers. Culture seems another big one, for instance with the gift-giving. I guess the foreign analogue would be donations?
And of course there is the elephant in the room, matchfixing and Life. It is extremely gratifying to hear the Korean sentiment of universal condemnation towards Life reaffirmed in this interview. It's hardly a secret and has been expressed before, of course, but certain members of the foreign community simply refuse to allow the specter of Life fade into history. They seem to conveniently forget or ignore the fact that the progamer known as Life is actually 이승현, a Korean man who played for a Korean team in a Korean progaming environment. Applying anything other than Korean morality, expressed via Korean judgement and Korean justice to his crime (and yes, it is a crime in Korea) is completely and utterly insane. Justice has been served and Life is gone. Fin.
On a lighter note, did I just read that INnoVation, the Machine himself, emotionless juggernaut of death and destruction, is actually quite funny?
.....I guess he finally got around to implementing a humor subroutine?
Oh and of course a big thank you to mizenhauer and everyone else involved in conducting/translating the interview. Matchmaking is bad. But there is no objective argument that can be proposed that proves that Life's punishment of a life-time ban is justified or the best for the Starcraft II scene. Hell, although it was bad publicity, it may have been the greatest publicity this game has received on a mainstream level. And Life was a one of a kind player in terms of bringing high level, entertaining play that actually worked. This reminds me of that time when some Team Liquid affiliates proposed a pseudo-science paper that attempted to objectively assert how their econ model for the game is a great idea. There is a lot of stupidity going on. Are the sponsors stupid for believing that by supporting an e-sport with one of its best players caught as a match fixer, it will be detrimental to their image? Are the sponsors correct in believing that the public is dumb enough to think that many people in the Starcraft II e-sports scene is filled with criminals? And that many, many games are fixed? Does the majority of the public actually believe isolated incidents reflect the entire community? Or is Starcraft II just inferior as a spectator e-sports, and it was bound to never establish dominance in the e-sports scene, regardless of the actions of Life? It’s not clear who the idiots are… But I know one thing. None of y’all know the truth and many people are just asserting shit based on what they want to believe. I want to believe that Life’s life time ban is too harsh. I miss Life. User was warned for this post So what exactly was this user warned for? I don't see anything wrong with this post. Is defending Life on the forums not acceptable anymore? Or did the mods not like that he voiced the possibility that the proposed econ model isn't that great?
I mean of course the opinion that matchfixing was great publicity is stupid but can you get warned/banned for stupidity?
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36621 Posts
Yes you can get warned for stupidity. If you don't know what you're talking about then you shouldn't be voicing your opinion in a way that could influence others. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when it comes to a delicate and controversial subject like match-fixing, everyone needs to tread carefully on what they say and how they say it.
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Seeker, that's a horrible way to look at it and I disagree with the warning.
This was someone doing mental gymnastics to justify a selfish desire, but the solution to stupid speech is more speech. If you can't use words to convince people that Life deserves to be perma-banned (which he does, easily), then forcing your beliefs on people in this way is an unproductive alternative. The knee-jerk authoritarian response here wasn't based on any kind of actionable rule and is so arbitrary that I feel kind of weird about it.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36621 Posts
I gave the post a second look and I agree that a warning may have been too harsh of a response. I will go ahead and let him know that I have removed the warning from his mod history. But I still stand by what I said. When it comes to match-fixing, it's a delicate subject matter and what gets said needs to be carefully considered before you hit the post button.
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This is really alarming to see that a mod thinks that their opinion is the only acceptable and people who don't share it should be silenced. The idea that you can judge whether people "know what they are talking about" is laughable. Seriously Seeker, your posts here a complete shit and are a disgrace to the mod team.
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It isn't alarming when you consider tl and forums' history in general. This is an accurate reflex to follow worldwide trends (intently or not). It has been wrong for years, no? Forever! Remember galileo? He recanted to survive, this is human process so ingrained in our social practices that you might call it an instinct.
People get virtually hanged publicly in 2017 and it does not seem to be a "self fixing" issue, on the contrary.
The purpose of a public hanging serves two distinct purposes: - protect the forum itself to insure its survival (to retain sponsors or other associations) - showcase the forum's position to show "where we are at?" (to all the posters)
This is when/where the plot thickens: - one person gets hanged and no one cares = carry on - many people support that person and indeed commit social suicide too by doing so and henceforth the arbitrary line in the sand may have moved.
Thing is, this virtual line moving is not always a good thing, sometimes it moves the wrong way.
Thing is, mod kids know nothing of the way this process works, people die in order for societies to evolve: the rights that teens brag about, these rights aren't immutable prizes but more like grails (ever changing and illusive)... People literally died for the world to be a better place (it is still hell but yet equipped with a vision that it could be geared towards heaven).. so many unheard of people suffering all their lives to procure what people now take for granted...
It is indeed sad humans wait decades before they want / need to understand these things (how social practices work) and yes moderators are usually in the worst age range to "get it" and so mainly ignore these facts, so the process is somewhat radicalized by that fact, but no more can be said of the majority of posters that they are charged to herd!
Take the win terd issue, why does tl accept the presence of someone like that? Well, simply put, not enough people on tl (or elsewhere) have fought and died to make it happen...
i'll admit i don't care about the life pro player issue much, i do think lifetime ban is ridiculous, lazy and unfair, but again "public hangings" is what the current social order requires.. where we are at!
And anyone posting about it (or any interesting subject matter) will be hanged too and that is really the clear sign that forum = real life.
tldr: mods are no different from posters they moderate, times change slowly in real life, internet is real life too
ps: i got warned for placing unwanted spoilers, "help help i'm being repressed" (joke)
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Germany25638 Posts
On July 14 2017 14:08 opisska wrote: This is really alarming to see that a mod thinks that their opinion is the only acceptable and people who don't share it should be silenced. The idea that you can judge whether people "know what they are talking about" is laughable. Seriously Seeker, your posts here a complete shit and are a disgrace to the mod team. How about we remain constructive and do not call things complete shit or "a disgrace". Otherwise I'd have to call your post complete shit and I don't want to do that.
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On July 15 2017 02:06 KadaverBB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2017 14:08 opisska wrote: This is really alarming to see that a mod thinks that their opinion is the only acceptable and people who don't share it should be silenced. The idea that you can judge whether people "know what they are talking about" is laughable. Seriously Seeker, your posts here a complete shit and are a disgrace to the mod team. How about we remain constructive and do not call things complete shit or "a disgrace". Otherwise I'd have to call your post complete shit and I don't want to do that.
Call it what you want. Seeker's posts however don't leave much room for constructivity. He is trying to pull one of the most despicable fallacies, that is argument by seriousness. He essentially declares matchfixing so serious that it gives him the responsibility to control what is said about it. The problem is that such approach prevents any discussion about whether it actually is serious. I am not saying that Seeker isn't entitled to his opinion but I have a big issue with his idea that the contrary opinion should be disallowed - if nothing, the reasoning is completely circular.
The whole idea of matchfixing being a "sensitive topic" is laughable. Holocaust is a sensitive topic, rape apologetics are a serious topic, this ia cheating in a pc game. People who are all dramatic about it are jusr drama queens who want to make themselves important.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
I have to agree with piss here. Frankly, Seeker's attitude towards moderating "wrong" people seems more in line with zlefin rants than with any semblance of a sensible moderation policy. And it isn't the only such example I've seen.
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not really. matchfixing has been a sore spot for TL for years and he called the ban/ condemnation of matchfixing stupid.
it was rescinded, so no harm no foul imo
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
I would personally say that the poster in question is a naive fool who lets feels get ahead of pragmatism. I wouldn't think it unwarranted to call him out harshly for it.
But unless we started taking moderation advice from zlefin there is no universe in which that might be considered actionable.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36621 Posts
When it comes to match-fixing, I get annoyed when people post about the subject even though they are not very well informed on it. A majority of users who post in the SC2 section are people who joined TL.net after WoL was announced. So a lot of those people were never even around when the BW match-fixing scandal happened. They don't understand the social and emotional damages that resulted from that scandal and what took place before, during, and after. So when they come on TL and talk about how (insert name here) should be forgiven, Korea is being too harsh, KeSPA people are idiots, etc. etc., it annoys me because what they're saying could influence others to join in and feel the same way. That kind of thing can be dangerous in the sense that false information gets posted and then spread around.
My mod actions are not meant to make me seem like some kind of power hungry monster. My mod actions are purely damage control. And I'm not perfect. When I mistakenly or wrongly warn or ban someone, I correct them and fix what I did incorrectly.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
I suppose it's just a lesson in the dangers of moderating with an emotional investment in the topic at hand. FWIW I don't think anyone thinks that was a manifestation of being power hungry; it was just an overreaction.
Oh well, all good now.
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