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TvP isn't even a problem at D//D+. TvZ is a ridiculous nightmare. If you don't have 200apm it's almost impossible to play at any effective level as I see it. I am getting completely destroyed by Lurkers and Mutalisks, even if I get a contain on the Zerg it's only a matter of time before I make some retarded control mistake and lose everything. If I try to do anything other than micro my army gets flattened and if I actually micro my units my macro falls way way behind. Mutalisks fly freely in my base as my marines get stuck on buildings and get picked off. Lurkers will kill all of my units in 2 seconds or prevent me from getting any map coverage. Basically if the Zerg goes mutas it's gg already because my timings will be so effed up by the muta harass. CONSTANTLY having to regroup hotkeys and units drives me nuts.
I've watched all the TvZ FPVODs on youtube over 9000 times and I've endlessly tried to perfect my builds. I don't think my macro/micro is that bad when I watch the B level Terrans on livestream, but whenever I'm in the driver seat the Zerg suddenly turns into some crazy gosu who is impossible to defeat.
Honestly, I don't think that TvZ at D/D+ level should require this much effort. I'm amazed at Terran players who complain about Protoss when I feel Protoss is far easier to deal with. I feel like I'm 100% better than I was at the start of the season, yet I get crushed by D level players this far into the season. I can 1a2a3a4a5a6a in .75 seconds, but that doesn't mean anything when your marines get stuck trying to fend off mutas.
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TvZ is ridiculously hard. I know what you mean.
I mean, if it weren't for mech, I'd probably be stuck at C-. Even though my mech is terrible and the only reason my Terran has gone so far is TvP, which is not THAT bad unless they go dt or reaver.
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Don't worry I'm sure there are many zergs out there who feel the exact opposite (Groybc) Just going to have to practice. There is no substitute.
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I've been forcing myself to play TvZ with bio only, and it's a nightmare. I can't believe how easy people on livestream/fpvods make it look.
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United States889 Posts
I never understand these TvZ trouble blogs because ZvT is some seriously tough shit. I played a 1 hour ZvT today where I seriously built like 60 ultralisks and I almost lost because the 1 base terran can still macro so damn well.
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I predict at least one AzureEye post in this thread.
Any matchup can be more or less difficult than the others depending on the level of your opponent and the map.
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On August 29 2009 12:16 Arrian wrote: I never understand these TvZ trouble blogs because ZvT is some seriously tough shit. I played a 1 hour ZvT today where I seriously built like 60 ultralisks and I almost lost because the 1 base terran can still macro so damn well. 60 ultralisk < 1base Terran
May god help your Zerg souls.
EDIT: PM me and I can can critique replays with you, or just post a replay here and I could help ' -'a
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Ugh I can relate. :| I try to consistently go bio, but ugh.
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terrans dont bio anymore?
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ZvT is like 50 times harder than TvZ. <300 APM means all of your attacks fail miserably -,-
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You're getting crushed by D level players? Hm, time to learn builds? *See stylish vods, also strykers profile for terran_9 & inter.mind
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On August 29 2009 12:12 gumbum8 wrote: Don't worry I'm sure there are many zergs out there who feel the exact opposite (Grobyc) Just going to have to practice. There is no substitute. lol ^_^
Yeah, ZvT is quite a bit harder at lower levels(maybe higher too, idk, im stuck around D+/C-) than TvZ IMO.
It takes not only practice from mass gaming, but thought into building placement and following a solid BO.
I just used to mass game TvZ freestyle, and it's so much harder than if you actually follow FPVODs and watch replays. You say you watch them, but I guess you need to focus more on the analyzing and why the Terran does what he does, rather than just think "okay he terran expands then builds up mnm while waiting for mutas to come." I'm not saying you're doing that exactly, but that's what I used to do, and when I started to actually analyze them properly the MU became much more clear and easier to play.
GL
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Obviously your building placement and ability to micro vs muta sucks or you wouldn't be having trouble. Once you can properly fend off muta you have more units and more ground between the opponent's lurkers and your demise, making it easier. If your macro/multi-task is solid you can lose your whole army to a misclick to lurkers and just go get a new army from your nat, no big deal.
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Jeez, you realise Zerg has nothing near close to matching Stylish's VODs and FAQs right?
So stop complaining :D
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United States7166 Posts
Yeah, TvZ is hard..but ZvT is even harder
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8rax solves lots of problems :D
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Standard bio seems to be the most impressive way to win, which is why I'm staying away from cheese and mech -however it's getting to the point where it feels like I'm tying a hand behind my back.
I have been watching all of the FPVODs, practicing BOs in singe player with a piece of paper with all of it written down.
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I think you should play single mode and just practice BOs over and over until you feel very comfortable (maybe do a drill where you practice a single build 10 times before playing a real game). Then when you play a real game it gets 100 times harder due to distraction etc but you'll be more primed and warmed up. You should also learn to cheese just for additional varieties to spice things up vs players who want to re you.
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On August 29 2009 12:46 Perguvious wrote: 8rax solves lots of problems :D Doesn't help you get truly better though. In fact 8rax tends to make you a worse player if you don't have ur fundamentals down.
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yes. honestly TvZ was my sole reason for quitting terran
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I know what you mean, from the Zerg side I love ZvT; I ride that mu so hard. A replay would be very helpful for an indepth critic but if I had to take a shot in the dark I'd say you don't use your vessels to their full potential. Thats, in my mind, what separates good and bad TvZ players is the bad ones just don't irradiate and go out on irradiating raids. They have all the vessels they just don't use them... also incorporating dropships into mid and late game is so so strong it makes me cry
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5 Lurkers can kill a 150 supply army in 5 seconds. =(
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(didn't read other than OP)
TvZ is hard, but keep in mind ZvT is also really hard - I'd say ZvT is harder. In TvZ you have so many options to abuse and screw with zerg and at low levels, you'll win every game just by using a quirky BO well.
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(didn't read other than OP)
TvZ is hard, but keep in mind ZvT is also really hard - I'd say ZvT is harder. In TvZ you have so many options to abuse and screw with zerg and at low levels, you'll win every game just by using a quirky BO well.
If you think I'm a zerg player complaining, you're wrong - I'm a C/C+ terran and my best matchup is TvZ - I get trashed by C+ tosses :/
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TvZ hard at D/D+ level? Hell just play a ramped map, make 2-3 rines and go 2 port wraith and that'll win almost everytime. You don't even need good micro, just need to have a bit of sense regarding what you should shoot. It often times won't win you the game outright but while you are harassing get an acad, add a rax or 2, and pump some m&m to kill the weakened Z (all off of one base.)
I'm sure your play could improve but it also seem that you have a mindset problem though. You are overestimating your opponent, a problem I myself often do as well. It's not a bad thing necessarily but it seems like everytime you start a TvZ your opponent has an auto-advantage because you think you will lose.
Btw: Don't feel that you must do FE into defend vs mutas every game. Switch it up with the old style of 1 base play. It's a lot of fun being the aggressor instead of the defender every game and is perfectly viable at the level you are playing.
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im the opposite
i feel tvz is a lot easier than tvp people ranks above me i can give a good game if they're zerg but i lose badly to protoss ranks below me.
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On August 29 2009 12:46 Perguvious wrote: 8rax solves causes lots of problems :D
Fixed
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On August 29 2009 13:23 SanguineToss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 12:46 Perguvious wrote: 8rax solves causes lots of problems :D Fixed Didn't fix it very well, did ya?
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Even WITH 200 apm you can be fucked. I remember a game where the Zerg bmed me at the end saying "if low apm don't play bio" and I was playing at like 230 apm FML
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On August 29 2009 12:39 synapse wrote: ZvT is like 50 times harder than TvZ. <300 APM means all of your attacks fail miserably -,-
On D level, you 9pool terran 100% and you win.
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Tvz is why i play terran honestly...
just as you, i've found it very hard to play TvZ at D/D+ level. I know what you mean. I just massed games and then things started to go together. I had a zerg practice partner that always tell me that my timing is too slow, and everything is too slow. That was like an "aha" moment that made me realize that i needed to make everything faster, and pay constant attention to my idle scvs and rax. Thats what made me click...
I believe that once you get over this hump in TvZ, and when you hit C-/C/B- or even B, TvZ is a easy ride if you know 1 standard BO and practice the hell out of it vs all scenarios zergs can do. Hell, in TvP toss got reavers/DT/DT Drop, 14NEX, and so many gay shit u gotta practice for. TvZ is Zerg either 2 hatch or 3hatch, muta or lurker. IT cant get any harder than that.
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On August 29 2009 13:11 Sigh wrote: 5 Lurkers can kill a 150 supply army in 5 seconds. =(
5 stimmed firebats can kill a hatchery/expo in 10secs..
Zerg is tough in a sense that they cant really break their armies up in mid/early game, which they are prone to multi-area harrassments..
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TvZ is not that bad... Especially Mutas. Just build several turrets in a small perimeter around your mineral line, that's what they usually aim for. You should spread out your buildings more, leave a path for your units to get back through your base so they don't get stuck. =P I'm pretty bad myself, probably worse than you... but that's why I happen to notice things when they work XD
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Thanks for all of the suggestions on cheese -that was how I got to D+ in the first place... then started only playing Zs on Iccup and forcing myself to use Han Bang 3 Vessel 1 Tank build and I'm back at D. (Why I made this thread)
TvZ is getting me addicted to this game at a time when I really can't afford to be.
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On August 29 2009 14:12 Loser777 wrote: Thanks for all of the suggestions on cheese -that was how I got to D+ in the first place... then started only playing Zs on Iccup and forcing myself to use Han Bang 3 Vessel 1 Tank build and I'm back at D. (Why I made this thread)
TvZ is getting me addicted to this game at a time when I really can't afford to be.
Heh. Ive had Wraithphobia from ZvT and now, i wtfpwn 2port wraiths. Just learn from your mistakes. The same person who gave me Wraithphobia gave a friend of mine Mutaphobia so he builds like 204354835634683682436348624368346838456 Turrets and <3s Valks
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tvz is easy man, think of it this way at D levels especially just D up and get army that can roll z. like all u need is 2base, and just wait for good unit mix and ups and its easy game..
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9931 Posts
On August 29 2009 13:01 shavingcream66 wrote: yes. honestly TvZ was my sole reason for quitting terran really?! it was my sole reason for playing starcraft 1v1s - i just racepicked either side of the matchup and cheesed in tvp. fucking fun, there's simply so many little things you HAVE to pay attention to and it's just a huge rush.
as for advice, i think lower level terrans seem to make the mistake of underestimating harass. they see progamers get away with minimal turrets and don't realize how much better the placement and mm micro needs to be to pull that off - just prioritize staying alive until you get a big mm/tank/vessel ball and roll the z. it's really hard to break a proper midgame t army for beginner zergs.
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On August 29 2009 16:45 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 13:01 shavingcream66 wrote: yes. honestly TvZ was my sole reason for quitting terran really?! it was my sole reason for playing starcraft 1v1s - i just racepicked either side of the matchup and cheesed in tvp. fucking fun, there's simply so many little things you HAVE to pay attention to and it's just a huge rush. as for advice, i think lower level terrans seem to make the mistake of underestimating harass. they see progamers get away with minimal turrets and don't realize how much better the placement and mm micro needs to be to pull that off - just prioritize staying alive until you get a big mm/tank/vessel ball and roll the z. it's really hard to break a proper midgame t army for beginner zergs.
he's not lying. every tvp proxy fact! ^_^
edit- to be fair, every tvp for me is 2fact rush hahha
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Staying alive... Q_Q
But yes, cheesing toss is a huge rush... nothing is more satisfying than BBSing a toss or rinescv rush when he gas steals you.
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Don't give up, I know what you're going through. There's a blog on TL where Ret talks about his view on TvZ and according to him, it's "a race to get as many units as possible". I think he's right about that. People always talk about how important micro is, but let me tell you that having good macro is so much more important.
I suggest that you mostly ignore micro for now and focus on a) executing your BO perfectly and b) macro a lot better. I recommend you don't micro at all apart from Stimpacks, sieging Siege Tanks and very crudely spreading your MnM. This can be done within 5 seconds. As soon as you've set your army up, you go back to your base and macro. On your level, this is going to work out until you get better and faster.
Hell, I've played countless games where I would suicide my first timing push out of pure stupidity but still ended up winning after a few minutes more, because of my macro.
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Yes, TvZ is RIDICULOUSLY hard. On the flip-end I find ZvT to be extremely easy. There's absolutely no way you can lose to early aggression, just put a ling outside the terran's base and make sunkens depending on his army size. While defense against 3-hat lurker requires perfect micro all the way from the zerg's natural to your own, and if you mess up once and lose only a couple of marines, the rest of it is going to get ran over so fast.
Then again it's better than PvZ rock-paper-scissors, rather lose because even though I played better than the zerg I got overran, than losing due to sheer luck.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On August 29 2009 14:12 Loser777 wrote: Thanks for all of the suggestions on cheese -that was how I got to D+ in the first place... then started only playing Zs on Iccup and forcing myself to use Han Bang 3 Vessel 1 Tank build and I'm back at D. (Why I made this thread)
TvZ is getting me addicted to this game at a time when I really can't afford to be.
LOL dude that build is 3 tanks 1 vessel not 3 vessels 1 tank
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On August 29 2009 17:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 14:12 Loser777 wrote: Thanks for all of the suggestions on cheese -that was how I got to D+ in the first place... then started only playing Zs on Iccup and forcing myself to use Han Bang 3 Vessel 1 Tank build and I'm back at D. (Why I made this thread)
TvZ is getting me addicted to this game at a time when I really can't afford to be. LOL dude that build is 3 tanks 1 vessel not 3 vessels 1 tank
This just might boost him above that D barrier :p
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Personally I find TvZ (bionic) awesome -- you don't really need to think, lol. Just enjoy SC look and feel while turning your brain completely off (it's TvZ, remember?) and slowly master macro mode. It's not even about winning or losing.
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Seriously OP you should PM me or /f add nrg.bamboo on iccup I can help you TvZ. I can rebuild you. Plus I could use the practice vs anyone at any level, just need to repeat my builds over and over until I'm good again.. just came back a few days ago.
pretty drunk k bye starcraftuuing
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the OP's story sounds like my story :D back when i was like D D+ , TvZ was my worse MU. Losing countless games just because i didnt pay enough attention to my army, got run over and over again by a simple lurker build, shitty micro ,shitty macro, no idea about multitasking >_<... Thx SC god i didnt give up, practiced it like mad and now it's my best MU Somehow i dont like mech build though -.- Probably I'm abit bias but i said so because most of my fundamental skills came from using bio in TvZ and i learnt them under intensive pressure in order to win games. TvZ is a true struggle for low-level terran. Hate it when many new terran players tend to choose mech coz it's easier, it has surprise element (not anymore yeah? :D )and so that they can get away with it.
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On August 29 2009 17:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 14:12 Loser777 wrote: Thanks for all of the suggestions on cheese -that was how I got to D+ in the first place... then started only playing Zs on Iccup and forcing myself to use Han Bang 3 Vessel 1 Tank build and I'm back at D. (Why I made this thread)
TvZ is getting me addicted to this game at a time when I really can't afford to be. LOL dude that build is 3 tanks 1 vessel not 3 vessels 1 tank Unfortunately that's only a typo.
Sigh............................ not every problem has a magical fix.
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go bbs or 10/12 and timing rush. works for me :D abuse greedy zerg
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200 apm is even quite low for high level TvZ for sure. There's just so much micro and actions involved in this matchup for Terran, that I would say you need at least around 250 to be good. I'm not talking about queueing 4 marines in each barrack here.
but yeah it's definately Terrans most APM-heavy matchup, because of the fact that you often use five hotkeys for your army, and your m&m are vulnerable and need microing all the time. Then BOOM back to base and click "m" for 10 barracks in 2 seconds, then "t" and "v" then back to the battle that's going on, micro etc
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^ hahaha, 250 APM for good TvZ. I have 200-250 at the D+ level, and it's not enough AT ALL. I'd say 5-600 is a requirement to even barely match a 300 apm zerg. Impossible matchup, just play PvZ.
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200 APM not enough? ROFLMAO, pro replays from gosugamers start with like 250 APM for terrans in TvZ. If you have 200 and stuck at d ranks you probably do tons of unnecessary spamming.
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On August 29 2009 23:04 1984 wrote: 200 APM not enough? ROFLMAO, pro replays from gosugamers start with like 250 APM for terrans in TvZ. If you have 200 and stuck at d ranks you probably do tons of unnecessary spamming. only the very slowest pro t's have 250 in any matchup, much less tvz
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On August 29 2009 23:07 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 23:04 1984 wrote: 200 APM not enough? ROFLMAO, pro replays from gosugamers start with like 250 APM for terrans in TvZ. If you have 200 and stuck at d ranks you probably do tons of unnecessary spamming. only the very slowest pro t's have 250 in any matchup, much less tvz
aka Tossgirl.
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I've probably misused the word "pro" -- I don't even mean progamers with licenses, just top foreigners and mediocre koreans who from time to time appear on sites like gosugamers. The point is they are all WAY better than D ranks, the gap is tremendous. And some of them easily get away with 250 APM in TvZ. Personally I got C- as terran with completely standard play and like 130 APM.
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man i was in the same boat a while back
i then started meching every game and got to D+ but realized that the builds weren't alltogether that solid (i would get run over by 2hatch muta into mass muta a lot and i felt like mech at very low levels is easy, but only becomes a solid viable build at much higher levels)
so i tried for a while to go the other way and not use tanks and go mnm + vessel and while its a situational strategy doing it every game for a while really improved my mnm vessel micro and my overall gamesense...then i started to work tanks back into my build.
i still have trouble executing the 3tank 1vessel timing (i always feel too weak at all the wrong times, esp right when mutas pop) so i've been going with an oov style 2rax expand (which works decently at D/D+ where i play at least, i know its not a optimized modern build) and the ability to apply early pressure (and the fact that some zergs respond with lurker builds that i think are weaker than muta) has really helped me out.
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On August 29 2009 13:54 Kenpachi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 12:39 synapse wrote: ZvT is like 50 times harder than TvZ. <300 APM means all of your attacks fail miserably -,- On D level, you 9pool terran 100% and you win.
I've never won by going 9 pool against terrans and Im a D level player :/.
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Playing Zerg is harder in this match up. Man up.
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United States17042 Posts
tvz is just hard all around. I think that it's probably slightly easier for T, but it's still not that easy.
And mech is the easy way out ^^
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On August 29 2009 19:05 Loser777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 17:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 29 2009 14:12 Loser777 wrote: Thanks for all of the suggestions on cheese -that was how I got to D+ in the first place... then started only playing Zs on Iccup and forcing myself to use Han Bang 3 Vessel 1 Tank build and I'm back at D. (Why I made this thread)
TvZ is getting me addicted to this game at a time when I really can't afford to be. LOL dude that build is 3 tanks 1 vessel not 3 vessels 1 tank Unfortunately that's only a typo. Sigh............................ not every problem has a magical fix.
But how could you not see something fundamentally wrong with rushing 3 vessels and having only one tank for a han bang attack? Improving a general understanding of the game is very important along with all the macro micro stuffs.
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On August 30 2009 02:01 Divinek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 19:05 Loser777 wrote:On August 29 2009 17:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 29 2009 14:12 Loser777 wrote: Thanks for all of the suggestions on cheese -that was how I got to D+ in the first place... then started only playing Zs on Iccup and forcing myself to use Han Bang 3 Vessel 1 Tank build and I'm back at D. (Why I made this thread)
TvZ is getting me addicted to this game at a time when I really can't afford to be. LOL dude that build is 3 tanks 1 vessel not 3 vessels 1 tank Unfortunately that's only a typo. Sigh............................ not every problem has a magical fix. But how could you not see something fundamentally wrong with rushing 3 vessels and having only one tank for a han bang attack? Improving a general understanding of the game is very important along with all the macro micro stuffs.
You idiot, his only mistake was a mistake in his writing. He meant 3 tanks 1 vessel, as he explained.
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If it makes you feel any better I used to get flatted by almost every Terran at D+ back when I played Zerg. Seemed like everyone was doing Bio pretty well. I lost to one guy who just want macro crazy, 3 base (Andromeda) 6 Rax and just Amoved at me. Seemed to focus only on controling Tanks/SV.
I can sympathize with being frustrated with lurker/muta though. There is a guy in my clan that his muta micro makes me feel bad for any terran.
Stick with it sir and GL
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I just go mech almost all the time.
What really annoys me is the number of timing attacks zergs can pull off vs mech so you need to be REALLY crisp with your BO - but other than that the mechanics of mech are very simple.
I think for mech the most important thing is scouting a 2 hatch vs a 3hatch - if you dont have the apm to keep your scout alive for this then you need to up your apm /multitasking
The thing is, if your opponent 12 hatches and you go FE, but then he does some 2 hatch build (muta, lurker or hydra) you are in BIIIG trouble if you try and fantasy and invest in any sort of vulture harass more than 1 vulture for scouting. If i fail scout i am usually just lost - i will prepare for mutas and a 2 hat hydra break comes, or i will prepare for 2 hat hydra and a ton of mutas come, or i try and fast expand vs a 12 hatch and a bunch of lurkers run up my ramp and i dont have enough scan/turrets in the wrong position. You only have to choose the wrong build out of 4 or more possible ones for zerg and its gg so scouting is a must Or if i go a 2 fact build order my expansion will be super late so i HAVE to get in some econ dmg in (or if he 2hatch build its okish) and i get to mine up to delay a hydra push etc.
Ihmo (D+ only but) it is a bit of rock paper scissors in terms of build, with scouting involved for mech, but once you get the right BO choice down i find zergs have a REALLY hard time dealing with mech (usually the correct choice is to expand a lot and defend minimally with hydras, but have the THREAT so that the terran is forces to expand slowly, and just build up the quick econ advantage. I find usually if a zerg gets to defilers without me having damaged him and his defences are up i am GG since plague and swarm really rip apart mech and i dont have the gas for vessels)
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Ofc, all this could be wrong cause im just a D+ player but, thats just my opinions. Still think mech is a million times easier on APM than zerg, you just need to make sure you choose the correct build order and scout properly or you will end up with a lot of build order losses
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Alright, to further prove my point, here's a video of me getting rolled by some D level Korean. (You can play whatever music you want, I'm not going to annoy people with my own preferences) + Show Spoiler +
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your B/O is off, your mouse control is really not precise at all (lower sensitivity maybe? acceleration off?) hotkey your production buildings at least in the early to midgame.. you're missing production cycles entirely
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I just tried switching to terran from c-/c zerg. I am done with terran all together now. It is so ridiculously hard it's not even funny. I am like D/D+ terran and feel like the biggest noob ever. It's so fucking stupid makes me rage. I have a lot of respect for terran players now :S
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On August 30 2009 17:45 resonance wrote: I just tried switching to terran from c-/c zerg. I am done with terran all together now. It is so ridiculously hard it's not even funny. I am like D/D+ terran and feel like the biggest noob ever. It's so fucking stupid makes me rage. I have a lot of respect for terran players now :S How long did you spend actually playing Terran? Of course you're not going to be the same rank when you change from one race to another, it just simply doesn't work that way. If your brain is on a Zerg mindset, you can't just go ahead and play TvZ and expect it to feel right, easy, or normal at any level.
On August 30 2009 16:04 Duke wrote: your B/O is off, your mouse control is really not precise at all (lower sensitivity maybe? acceleration off?) hotkey your production buildings at least in the early to midgame.. you're missing production cycles entirely
Also, just to add on to this guy's point about the video:
You didn't react correctly to what you saw. You saw that he had an evo chamber, a spire, and a den. At this point, you should ASSUME mutas, because if you assume wrong, you're not being put behind by being contained with lurkers, but if you're wrong by guessing lurkers and he goes mutas, your army will get destroyed, as it did here.
Your turret placement is quite bad, if he had made more mutas and harrassed you, he would probably get so insanely ahead just by the lack of proper army/turret placement that it didn't really matter from then on. Now, if someone goes spire, den, chamber at the same time, theres something he's missing, right? Economy, he won't be able to get his 3rd gas going very quickly, so he will either have to have less units and get his hive tech as normal, or stay at lair tech longer before being able to reach hive tech. This means that if you can survive the initial influx of army he will have (faster lurkers, possibly +1 carapace before normal), you will be put very much ahead. To react to this, make 2 bunkers and position your mm/tanks better so that you can demolish him when he attacks, and push out successfully with your first vessel.
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After re-watching the video, you didn't even click on the hydralisk den to know that he was even going lurkers, so why in the world would you want to go and contain him after only seeing a spire being created? Another tip, obviously, is to place your scans better (natural scan didn't even cover the left side of the creep), and click on every morphing building so that you know exactly what he's up to.
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It's only hard if you don't have barely acceptable APM (200+). Once the Terran has sufficient APM, it becomes incredibly hard for the Z and always stays like that.
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I suggest you to play 1 base terran, 2 base terran is the worst strategy ever if you don't have good mechanics. As a slow zerg player, if I face a fast expanding terran of my level, it's a free win for me because they only start to be dangerous after 10 min in the game and at this stage they can't macro and micro well because there is too much thing to do, I just have to expand every where, make ultralisk and it's over. On the contrary since my micro is not very good, a well excuted fast push will kill me 75% of the time, and you only need 150 apm to do this.
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TvZ is a match-up that relies very heavily on mechanics, that much is true. Practice your mechanics and stop crying about it.
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On August 30 2009 03:46 Adeny wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2009 02:01 Divinek wrote:On August 29 2009 19:05 Loser777 wrote:On August 29 2009 17:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On August 29 2009 14:12 Loser777 wrote: Thanks for all of the suggestions on cheese -that was how I got to D+ in the first place... then started only playing Zs on Iccup and forcing myself to use Han Bang 3 Vessel 1 Tank build and I'm back at D. (Why I made this thread)
TvZ is getting me addicted to this game at a time when I really can't afford to be. LOL dude that build is 3 tanks 1 vessel not 3 vessels 1 tank Unfortunately that's only a typo. Sigh............................ not every problem has a magical fix. But how could you not see something fundamentally wrong with rushing 3 vessels and having only one tank for a han bang attack? Improving a general understanding of the game is very important along with all the macro micro stuffs. You idiot, his only mistake was a mistake in his writing. He meant 3 tanks 1 vessel, as he explained.
Oh I coulda swore I saw 'not a typo' which was a reason for the whole post, and which made me smile.
Don't need to call people idiots just because they have learning disabilities and you're insecure.
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I have learning disabilities, awesome.
But yeah, mechanics mechanics mechanics. If D level is this hard then damn.
After watching this myself, I'm realizing that I'm missing production rounds a lot even when I'm clicking on raxes... I think I hit "n" instead of "m" quite a bit.
As for mouse sensitivity, I think I just have a control issue. I have it on Highest speed with "Enable Pointer Precision" on. I use some generic Logitech BT96a, which is supposed to be 1000dpi... I don't think that's a problem.
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if i remember correctly day[9] recommends turning enable pointer precision off
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That makes my mouse movements pretty effed up lol...
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On August 31 2009 05:59 Loser777 wrote: That makes my mouse movements pretty effed up lol... Not so much.. because you'll only get used to the feeling and actually learn the correct muscle movements; as for mouse acceleration, the movements are not always the same because it depends on both the speed and the distance you move the mouse, and is much much less accurate once you're used to the other way around. I definately back Day[9] when he says that everyone should remove mouse acceleration, it's just a horrible tool when learning to improve in a computer game.
EDIT: Sorry, you're speaking of pointer precision, which also should be turned off, AFAIK
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It's the same thing, everyone just turn it off. Also, as I remember you need to update your registry to completely disable it b/c of some glitch in Windows. Just google "windows xp remove acceleration" or something like that.
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trust me, zvt is harder
we have to gather our units even when theyre all scattered, pay attention to the minimap incase of drops, figure out where the terran ball is at all times, move lurks back when T sieges, scourge vessels, consume, TIME all of our attacks
most of this is hard to do because of one word: PRESSURE
terrans on the other hand just need good hand speed to keep minerals and gas low, regather units from choke, and from there its just microing on the field and deciding how to kill the zerg effectively. its really hard to keep pumping from the rax though even with high apm. its easier to keep minerals and gas down with zerg
im REALLY sick of people saying tvz harder than zvt. Just the mindset that we have to FLANK USING A BIG ARMY and rely on ONE SPELL WHICH IS AT HIVE TECH to win? -_- its so hard to flank because of builds including stylish which take advantage of these lurker timings
oh and the difference in skill between good zergs and bad zergs is insane. ever seen a zerg lose their entire army from mismicro in zvt and then seen the T contain the z?
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On August 29 2009 13:11 Sigh wrote: 5 Lurkers can kill a 150 supply army in 5 seconds. =(
did you hear? Tanks out range lurkers!
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Actually with highest speed, it's easier for you with "enable mouse precision" because it slows down mouse speed. Try to play with medium speed and no mouse precision, it will be much more easier.
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On August 31 2009 07:54 loupouk wrote: Actually with highest speed, it's easier for you with "enable mouse precision" because it slows down mouse speed. Try to play with medium speed and no mouse precision, it will be much more easier.
So much mis-information. Pointer precision doesn't slow down mouse speed at all, jesus christ. It makes your pointer move according to your hand-speed. So if you move your hand fast, it'll move faster relative to the distance you are moving your mouse. Precision or not doesn't matter at all, It's just a matter of what you get used to, but it seems alot of people have an easier time to get used to having it off, so try that.
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My mistake, I did not explained it correctly, i think every body knows what is mouse acceleration but thanks for the clarifcation. I mean without accel or "enable mouse precision", with mouse speed set to max, even if you move slowly your mouse will move a lot, with accel if you move slowly your mouse will move "slower" and will be "more precise". So what is the point of using high sensitivity if you can't use it without acceleration, and have in fact to move your mouse slower to be precise enough. Thats why i sugest medium speed with no accel as it is said in Day[9] podcast. With this setting, moves can be fast and precise at the same time.
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On August 29 2009 12:12 clazziquai wrote: TvZ is ridiculously hard. I know what you mean.
I mean, if it weren't for mech hacks, I'd probably be stuck at C-. Even though my mech is terrible and the only reason my Terran has gone so far is TvP, which is not THAT bad unless they go dt or reaver (which I SEE COMING LOLOLO) Sorry I had to . To add to OP... TvZ is really hard. Just keep working on your control and on pressuring the zerg.
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On August 31 2009 05:59 Loser777 wrote: That makes my mouse movements pretty effed up lol... You just have to get used to it, your brain is cheating you that it is better to play w/ ench. precision. In fact to click more precisely ironically you have to turn enchanced precision off -.-" When it's on mouse acceleration depends on how far you move your mouse, so it's harder to estimate when will your cursor stop after moving it.
BTW I am ~140 apm T and win like 90% of tvz's on C, but lose most TvP's on C and very much on C- Playing bio ofc, TBH i'm getting better records playing bio than mech - cause my macro later in the game sux so much.
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On August 31 2009 07:43 Hypnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2009 13:11 Sigh wrote: 5 Lurkers can kill a 150 supply army in 5 seconds. =( did you hear? Tanks out range lurkers! Also it is easy to kill lurkers when they are not under land.
And turn off mouse acceleration so your mechanics can not suck...
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Surprised to see the OP wasn't made by Idra =(
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