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You may or may not know the Korean Hip-Hop group Epik High. Well, they're pretty popular in Korea. Now, one of the band members has a brother who lives in the US and that brother posted something in response to a recent episode of Infinity Challenge (very popular saturday evening variety show) that was filmed in NYC. His statements caused somwhat of a national uproar.
Here's what he had to say:
"I did have my worries when I heard that the Infinity Challenge members were coming to New York... and I totally felt like dying from the embarrassment while watching.
The internet is being all crazy now, saying how 'our Korean humor worked in New York too'. ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?
They were ignored like dogs on the streets from the New Yorkers for mumbling gibberish and not even being able to speak a word. They were also treated like retards at a pizza place by being thrown a random slice to eat.
Also, street casting?? Internet radio?? The one who calls himself the "Nation's MC" dances like a grasshopper inside a crappy warehouse with a green screen those 20 year old white boys call a 'studio'. Was it just me or did those dumb-looking white boys make him a complete fool? I wonder what those white boys were thinking (Actually never mind. Even if they said it out loud, the Koreans wouldn't have understood). They perhaps thought, 'WHAT THE FUCK ARE THESE RETARDS DOING??'
I know you guys are being 'real' for entertainment, but keep the low-quality comedy in Korea. Please, ok? You guys make millions per year? Did you really have to go overseas and especially the capital of the world, New York City to be bunch of jackasses? MBC sure knows how to put themselves on the top.
To MBC who produced this piece of crap and those crowd of reporters who publicized this shameful event as if it's something we need to be proud of... Of course, this episode is just perfect for those Koreans who think this low-quality comedy is just so funny.
Since when was it so humiliating to be a part of our Korean race?
Get rid of the 'food' and why not tell those New Yorkers with your gibberish that Dokdo1 is our land? You guys act like you can attack Japan any day when you guys are the ones who copy their shit?"
When I first read that I thought FINALLY someone who will be heard says something. Sure, he was harsh and exaggerated, but if he had said it in a nice and friendly manner, no one would have noticed. Now my main point is not the content of that guy's post, it's the (once again) ridiculous response of Korea's netizens. The guy is getting flamed to death, everyone is in shock, I mean, how does someone dare to criticize Korea?! The group Epik High gets negative press so in order to not ruin his brother's career, the guy already posted an explanation and an apology. (explanation / apology)
Maybe it's my German upbringing but I just can't deal with this so called Korean pride. In this respect Korea and Germany are just complete opposites. History has taught Germans that it's always good to question your country, to criticize if necessary, to never blindly follow the mass, to not racially or otherwise discriminate. In my opinion Germans overdo this to a point that they don't have any real national identity, I guess there is some sort of national pride, but hey, we (yeah we, German pride yo) can't show it for obvious reasons. If some famous German guy's brother had said something like that guy above, NOONE in Germany would have even remotely cared. On the contrary, lots of people might even have agreed and said yeah, Germany sucks or something of that sort. I'm not(!) trying to say Germany is better than Korea or something like that, just saying they're opposite extremes in this matter. There was this recent incident where the US-born leader of a famous Korean boy-band had to leave the country because Netizens had found old myspace entries of him saying that Korea sucks. Of course, netizens went crazy and he basically got kicked out of the country. They even had a suicide petition for him, with several thousand people signing. I mean WTF?!
I don't think having a healthy amount of national pride is a bad thing, but this is just ridiculous and it's just the tip of the iceberg. I personally like Infinity Challenge and other Korean shows and I even like some K-Pop songs, but hey let's be honest, most of it and the industry in general is just TRASH. I know cultures are different and who am I to decide what's trash and what's not but let's take a look at how the Korean entertainment industry works. Everywhere in the world the pop-music industry is a shiny plastic world, Korea is no different but takes it to a whole new level. Like everywhere else, rather than the music, the industry tries to sell an image, a brand. Well in Korea they don't even pretend that it's about the music anymore. Hot artists don't release albums anymore, they release mini-albums! Mini album means you have 1 song (at most 2) that are designed to top the charts and 3-4 other trash songs nobody cares about. That's great because instead of 10 trash songs you now only have to produce 4 to make an album. Now the hit song has a certain concept, look and dance going along with it and the production company pays the broadcasting stations to promote the song and group nonstop so everyone and their mother knows about the song. People who have been to Korea will probably have experienced this, it's coming from EVERYWHERE, on the street, on tv, in the supermarket, ringtones. Now this lasts for as long as they can milk money out of it, then the group rests to start a comeback (yeah they call it comeback) with a new mini-album 5 months later. The disturbing thing is, the whole system is so established, they don’t even pretend anymore at all. They can even joke about it on a meta level. On any given TV show in Korea you’ll find conversations like these:
“Hey admit it, you had plastic surgery to have more success“ “Well yes, just a little…” “Haha, don’t worry, me too. We all did eh?” “Hehe yes, I had surgery at 3 places” “Me 4!” “Haha!” “Hehe!”
I mean it’s great they’re open and all. But first of all, they have no other choice, because zealot netizens would find out anyway. And secondly it’s just an accepted fact that you have to be pretty (or extremely ugly) in order to achieve anything. Everyone knows it’s the way it works but I know no other country in the world that is so obsessed with prettiness – and DOES NOT EVEN THINK IT’S A BAD THING. Maybe they’re just so advanced and the whole world will turn out like that at some point, but I certainly hope not.
The most pitiful of the bunch are the string puppets, idols as they call them, who perform the songs. They’re hardworking people, some of them really talented, but they just get screwed over. The three big production companies all have their idol training camps where young guys and girls get trained to be ‘stars’. If they’re lucky they get picked for some band after a few years of training, they’ll have their window of fame and well, I guess by then they’ll be brainwashed enough to not even hate the songs they have to perform and be disgusted by the act they have to put up. But again, Koreans are very open about this. On TV shows if groups introduce themselves they’ll say something like, I’m xxx and I’m in charge of being cute, I’m xxx and I’m in charge of being pretty, I’m xxx and I’m in charge of being edgy, etc. Why not just openly say that you were put together to milk the money out of the poor kids who buy that crap. I mean, that’s how pop music works everywhere, but in Korea it’s just so extreme in every way. The idols live in dorm like apartments, much like progamer houses, don’t even have their own rooms, get a little spending money every week and have to work really hard. If you misstep only once, your career can be over. That pressure must be unbearable, just look at all the suicides among Korean celebrities.
Now Korean entertainment in general has this problem. They can't do any insightful witty jokes because they have to be extremely careful what they say. Political jokes are an absolute taboo. There's no evening talk show like Leno, O'Brian and all those others, because jokes like that just don't work in Korea. One ambiguous statement and you got your army of haters just waiting to massacre you. So what to do? There's only one option left, we jump around like 5 year old idiots, do some grimaces and there we have our comedy. They also love hinting at those bad bad things you do in the bedroom. But only after you’re married of course. The idol gets kissed on the cheek! Who dares kiss my idol? Let’s have a suicide petition. Just look at the red light districts in Seoul, then you’ll be, yeah… right.
Well this kind of got longer than originally planned. There’s much more to say but it’s all just different facets of the same thing. Hope I didn’t offend anyone. It is not my intention to blame or attack individuals, but the whole situation is just a mess.
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is awesome32246 Posts
Yeah I have been wondering about this a little when watching Kpop on MBC in the ads they put between games or ads for other shows. I just guessed it was because MBC Game was aimed at kids and that it wouldnt be as bad in other channels...
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S. Korean culture has rude, arrogant kitschy pop-stars. German culture...WWI, WWII, Holocaust. So, just like the Germans have needed some time to learn, give the S. Koreans some time to learn -- some time to reach the critical, self-reflective state of mind you Germans have reached.
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How is this K-pop dude's post any less about Korean pride than the netziens who flame him for dissing a Korean group? He's ranting about the sketch comedy group going to America and ruining Korea's image and having white people mock Korea and making it an embarassment to be Korean.
If that isn't Korean pride I don't know what is. Yet you agree with him while the same time bashing people with national pride. Seems a bit contradictory to me.
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Many artists produce mini-albums because they are contracted by their entertainment industry to produce multiple albums per year, every year. You will not be able to produce a full album in that short time frame consistently. And since gross income from sales is a mere fraction of what other countries like the US amount to, they HAVE to rely on mass releases in order to turn a profit. For that reason, they have to squeeze as much quality into a mini-album as they can in whatever time they are given.
Hot artists don't release albums anymore, they release mini-albums! You might want to expand to expand your horizons outside of what akp tells you. PLENTY of artists release full length albums all the time, even the "hot artists."
Mini album means you have 1 song (at most 2) that are designed to top the charts and 3-4 other trash songs nobody cares about. That's great because instead of 10 trash songs you now only have to produce 4 to make an album. I don't see how this is different from any other country in the world. In every country, even Germany, albums consists of a few title tracks while the others are obviously subpar. Yes I'm sure there are good amount of exceptions (even though it is all subjective) but you can't just pin something like that to just Korea and play it off as it not being true anywhere else in the world.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
Tbh these days nothing shocks me in relation to the power of Korea's netizens. The double-standard exhibited by them in the case of Park Jaebeom was painful to watch even as an 'outsider.' As soon as he threatened the perfect image of Korea he was no longer regarded as a Korean, but as an American (and someone to whom it was perfectly acceptable to direct a horrific suicide petition.) I'm not surprised he left after seeing how quickly his so-called fans and others could turn upon him.
When people start talking to me about Dokdo and other issues of Korean nationalism my eyes glaze over and it's time to start planning what's for dinner tomorrow night. I can understand a degree of patriotism, but the long-standing grudges that some people seem to hold (in other countries aside from Korea as well.) baffle me. 90-100% of the people involved in these incidents are dead so what good does it do to keep hating their descendants who weren't even born at the time?
Korea has fantastic culinary culture, beautiful historical architecture and artifacts and an economy that has begun to flourish in modern times. I just wish some people here would stop trying so desperately to prove that korea is a faultless and perfect nation. Nowhere in the world can lay claim to such a title.
By disputing trivial matters and having dramas over the smallest things (even in the world of Kpop and entertainment which is rife with this kind of personal dissection just as much as any of the British or American entertainment magazines and sometimes even to a much more severe degree) Korea is probably not promoting the image it might want to or helping its constant bids for globalisation and acceptance in the modern world.
This is only my opinion btw ^^ I just get sick of listening to the latest scandal over nothing or (a select and often completely random) people telling me about how terrible the rest of the world is compared to Korea. It's impossible to deny that awful things happened to the Korean people, but the past is not something we can change - certain people and organizations need to look to the future.
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real good post, 5 stars national pride isnt a bad thing, germany was a solid example. Becoming a bland, tasteless nation without pride is another nightmare fanboyism can get ugly, but i would take it over indifference any day. In fact some of those celebrities get extra media attention thanks to those incidents. Korea is very traditional and this is a part of its culture, not something that can be changed easily
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korean netizens are some of the most rabid fans in the world. Things like this coming from them aren't really that surprising considering Korean culture is just ridiculously patriotic. They try their hardest to convince themselves that their country is perfect and until they get over that it's going to be a major hurdle in social development.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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the brother seems insecure
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3861 Posts
Korea is even more so (THIS IS MY OPINION) because over the years, we're a nation that's been stomped on and shit on. Only within the last 50-60 years has Korea actually BEEN anything notable in the history of the world. Of course they are going to be prideful as a nation; unfortunately they kind of go overboard with it. The communal, mass societal thinking thing is just what we are used to - there is almost nothing individualistic or independent about Korea's thinking. But that's just how this culture is.
Korea is a 15 year old boy in a 40 year old man's body. As much as the country has developed, the mindset hasn't changed or "grown up" to match the physical aspects. The grudges held over Japan or whatever... is all because of that collectivist mind again - children told by parents and grandparents... and the children believing that they can do something about it for the greater good of their families.
On the flipside, because of things like this, Korea has a greater sense of family and respect for elders and pride of culture. I agree with the poster above me - having NO national pride is just as bad. You lose identity.
I dunno where I'm going with this.
BOO K-POP!! (I miss old school bands like Roora, DJ Doc, Seotaiji and Boys...) but if you look hard enough, the musicians are there, the rock lovers are there, the indie bands are there. We're just a very external, aesthetic culture right now, because all Korea cares about is looking good to the rest of the world. So not to get stomped on or shit on again.
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This made me remember Japanese (female?) baseball fans who decided to mock Koreans and came to Korea with signs telling how their team owned Korean team... and they were like greeted with smiles
I agree with zulu.
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In my experience, this extreme nationalism isn't just for Korea, but other Asian countries as well. China and HK (yes I know they're technically the same country but they have very different cultures) both "suffer?" from overactive national pride and a tremendous taste for scandal.
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good read and I agree that koreans can be pretty obsessed with image and I say this as a korean.
I didnt know anything about this kpop thing or the netizens and I am kinda ashamed..or more indifferent actually. I've realized growing up that having a close attachment to the 'motherland' is kind of trivial when I've never lived there. I also concluded that koreans are no less flawed than anyone else - yes americans too.
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On November 24 2009 13:31 lilsusie wrote: Korea is even more so (THIS IS MY OPINION) because over the years, we're a nation that's been stomped on and shit on. Only within the last 50-60 years has Korea actually BEEN anything notable in the history of the world. Of course they are going to be prideful as a nation; unfortunately they kind of go overboard with it. The communal, mass societal thinking thing is just what we are used to - there is almost nothing individualistic or independent about Korea's thinking. But that's just how this culture is.
careful of the netizens.
and good point.
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This is basically the same thing as Asian Americans berating FOBs. An exaggerated feeling of shame stemming from whatever insecurities one contains towards his native culture in the face of different cultures. If the brother realized no new yorker gave a shit about how those Koreans acted which I'm sure was what happened, instead of conjuring up some fantastic mass of condescending foreigners, which, while I'm no psychologist, seems to actually fit his own attitude rather than that of the "white boys," he wouldn't feel the need to write an angry post addressing what he interprets to be "Korean Pride," but rather just his own insecurities and failures at adjusting to a new culture.
I don't know the show or the context behind the incident it but I really can't see what they did to be an example of korean pride.
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what are "suicide petitions" ?
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That brother seems to have a rather cynical eye (or a pair of them) towards viewing the American reactions to the Korean show. I mean, it is embarrassing that those "top comedians" from Korea couldn't string together a decent sentence in English, and it is something that the nation should and is striving to improve upon (English is being taught more rigorously in public school curriculum). Still, so many of those rants in that dude's rant seems to have such extreme interpretations on minor events.
He (that brother) could just be another one of Korea's super-troll-netizen, ravaging the virtual space with extremist views and short-thought statements that even he would probably regret and be ashamed of in a day or two. As people pointed out above, Korea developed very quickly through the late 1900's and early 2000's, evolving from an ex-colony 3rd world nation in 1945 to "one of the leaders" in tech (and e-sports, of course!) and manufacturing nowadays. This massive rise of position and power, in pair with the rapid expansion of the virtual network (internet, as we call it) gave citizens easy access and anonymity online to express their (rather spontaneous, on-the-spur kind) emotions. In this online group is anywhere from 50+ year old, old-school nationalists who grew up through the hard times and the changing times, and also 10-15 year olds, fresh and blind, ignorant but brave. Of these people, there are of course the "better netizens" who have some sense of control and manner, but the extremists get the headlines and hot issues.
One case that should be brought up is the case of Park Jae Bum, former (and still, IMO) leader of 2PM, a k-pop male group. He left negative comments about Korea a few years ago (before his debut), made his debut about a year ago, and then some malicious person decided to dig up that old post he made years ago, interpret/translate it with a strong bias towards negativity, and then publish it on the internet. It caught on like fire, netizens burning him down, leaving daring comments (some said he should suicide). PJB immediately acknowledged his mistake, apologized publicly, but due to constant pressure and negative media, he was pretty much forced to quit his career and escape back to USA. Once he left, the netizens turned around 180 degrees, criticizing each other for being too harsh and stubborn.
What can we learn from it? Korean netizens are scary? Perhaps. But this is just a consequence of rapid growth, retained nationalism, and so on. I personally think that Koreans (including myself) have a great sense of national pride, but it often blinds us into making quick judgments and unintentionally extreme remarks. It probably trickles down from the never-ending strife within the political parties in Korea (that's another huge topic to explore which doesn't need further details here).
I just realized I didn't really make a solid point in my block of text...
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On November 24 2009 14:18 MyHeroNoob wrote: what are "suicide petitions" ?
basically an online petition asking for an individual to go commit suicide in public
it's a little bit on the sick end imo
the former leader of 2pm got a couple tens of thousands of signatures if i remember correctly
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On November 24 2009 13:43 meeple wrote: In my experience, this extreme nationalism isn't just for Korea, but other Asian countries as well. China and HK (yes I know they're technically the same country but they have very different cultures) both "suffer?" from overactive national pride and a tremendous taste for scandal.
oh yea, dont really know about china but here everyone loves scandal...but in no way are hk ppl as rabid and crazy as korean people... seriously the image of korean netizens is just like O___________O
hk ppl just wanna make money and w/e lol
very intesrseting read snowbird!
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On November 24 2009 14:18 MyHeroNoob wrote: what are "suicide petitions" ?
Exactly what they sound like.
Anyways, a very insightful and interesting post. While I was aware that Koreans are very prideful and nationalistic, I didn't know that netizens carried so much power. Are Korean celebrities so prideful that they allow forum posts they read on the internet to influence how they live there lives? It seems a stark contrast to Western culture, where statements like this have little to no effect on the lives of the people who make them. I feel like I need a better look at how cyberized Koreans actually are.
As for the statement itself, I see no reason for this man to be so heavily criticized. However, I also see nothing wrong with old fashioned slap-stick humor. I don't care what culture it is, it's always fun to watch somebody make a fool out of themselves. Are the antics of these Korean comedians in New York really that different from those of Borat? I don't think so, but then again, I haven't seen the clip yet.
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Insecurities pretty much sum up the Korean attitude towards criticism.
Has there been no mention of the recent 'loser' incident here? I find it disgusting that a girl can be raped on the internet (not to mention get nationwide attention in other media) for saying men under the height of 180 cm are losers on TV, in a nonserious manner at that.
anonymity + sheep mind + insecurities = hate
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51138 Posts
netizens could form a political party and rule korea with an iron fist. thats how much power they have over one country.
who would have thought a single piece of technology (internet) manages to pretty much control a country of 40m+ people.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
On November 24 2009 14:31 blue_arrow wrote:basically an online petition asking for an individual to go commit suicide in public it's a little bit on the sick end imo the former leader of 2pm got a couple tens of thousands of signatures if i remember correctly
No, Jaebeom's suicide petition got an initial figure of 3,000 signatures and his 'come back' petition got in excess of 70k in a shorter amount of time as far as I'm aware. Also the korean 'Hottest' (the name for people who support 2pm.) fans are still protesting with posters/origami roses/flash mobs and other activities around the world. The Korean protests have been the most visible of course, but there have also been protests from America, other parts of Asia and Europe. I think it really hit home how much influence the Korean netizens have when Jaebeom suddenly fled Korea and is now still refusing to go public about the aftermath of leaving. A lot of them (mainly the young girls who are 2pm 'fans') realized how idiotic they'd been. However, so far their efforts to get him to come back have failed. (I think it basically serves them right.)
2pm has also come back with their first album as a 6 member group. JYP (their company manager.) has expressed support for Jaebeom returning, but has not made his stance clear upon whether it will ever happen. The 2pm members have also left support messages for Jaebeom in the 'thanks to' section of their album packaging and also during their award acceptance speech at the MAMA awards only a couple of days ago.
(I know way too much about this lol...)
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On November 24 2009 14:58 NeverGG wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 14:31 blue_arrow wrote:On November 24 2009 14:18 MyHeroNoob wrote: what are "suicide petitions" ? basically an online petition asking for an individual to go commit suicide in public it's a little bit on the sick end imo the former leader of 2pm got a couple tens of thousands of signatures if i remember correctly No, Jaebeom's suicide petition got an initial figure of 3,000 signatures and his 'come back' petition got in excess of 70k in a shorter amount of time as far as I'm aware. Also the korean 'Hottest' (the name for people who support 2pm.) fans are still protesting with posters/origami roses/flash mobs and other activities around the world. The Korean protests have been the most visible of course, but there have also been protests from America, other parts of Asia and Europe. I think it really hit home how much influence the Korean netizens have when Jaebeom suddenly fled Korea and is now still refusing to go public about the aftermath of leaving. A lot of them (mainly the young girls who are 2pm 'fans') realized how idiotic they'd been. However, so far their efforts to get him to come back have failed. (I think it basically serves them right.) 2pm has also come back with their first album as a 6 member group. JYP (their company manager.) has expressed support for Jaebeom returning, but has not made his stance clear upon whether it will ever happen. The 2pm members have also left support messages for Jaebeom in the 'thanks to' section of their album packaging and also during their award acceptance speech at the MAMA awards only a couple of days ago. (I know way too much about this lol...)
oh.. that's good to hear, guess i mixed up the two
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I hate to generalize but I fell out of love with Korea for a while now. Maybe 1-2 years ago. It's the way that Korean people think that make me very... bitter. I know that every society has their own faults and North America is far from perfect and I know that there is a great push for some people to conform but there are WAVES of people who are strive for imperfection rather than perfection.
In North America, and specifically Toronto, where I am from, people I meet embrace imperfection and it doesn't matter if you're ugly, hot, tall, short, rich or poor, you can appreciate what you have. Once again, I'm not saying that all North Americans are like this but there are people who DO believe in imperfection.
But with Korean people, there is an image that pop culture has been tattooed into their minds. You must be tall, rich, good looking, smart and well-connected... period. Hanging out with Koreans made me the most insecure guy in the world. I always had to worry about fashion, how much money I had, how nice my house was, what kinda girlfriend I had, how tall I was, etc.
Once I stopped hanging out with Koreans, and I'm not talking about the 4 same guys kinda thing, I mean church, volunteer groups, high school and university Koreans, so I've met a lot of different people. But once I stopped all of that and just embraced anything that came to me and I was slowly happier with what I had. I didn't care if I was short or poor or ugly. I just didn't care. And I see some old Korean friends of mine contemplating whether they should get leg surgery or not to become taller and shit, I'm just like wtf?
I don't know. Something is wrong with Korean pop culture. Not Korean culture in general. But pop culture is having too much influence. I know North America has the same problem but why is it that there is so many people who are willing to go against it and they don't give a shit about who complains. People in Korea should have the freedom to not follow this pop culture bullshit without having their balls chopped off.
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On November 24 2009 13:31 lilsusie wrote: On the flipside, because of things like this, Korea has a greater sense of family and respect for elders and pride of culture. I agree with the poster above me - having NO national pride is just as bad. You lose identity.
I'm Me, and I'm Canadian. 34,000,000 other people are Canadian, but only I am Me. If I only said I am Canadian, it would be very hard to find Me.
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United States32520 Posts
caaaaaaal moooltkeeee~~
please :D
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is this why a lot of asian americans feel the need to put "AzN" in all of their screen names?
lol, sorry if that sounded offensive. i've always been curious though.
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On November 24 2009 13:31 lilsusie wrote: I agree with the poster above me - having NO national pride is just as bad. You lose identity.
Could you and the other people that said similar things please explain why you think having no national pride is a bad thing? Because I think identifying yourself with what YOU are and with what YOU have achieved makes for a purer and more distinct identity than identifying yourself with a nation. What influence did i have on Germany's history? None, so why should i feel proud about anything Germany has achieved? Maybe I can be proud of Germany when I am an old man, because then I might have influenced Germany a tiny bit but feeling proud of Germany right now feels like taking credit for something I had absolutely no influence in.
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On November 24 2009 15:01 jjun212 wrote: I hate to generalize but I fell out of love with Korea for a while now. Maybe 1-2 years ago. It's the way that Korean people think that make me very... bitter. I know that every society has their own faults and North America is far from perfect and I know that there is a great push for some people to conform but there are WAVES of people who are strive for imperfection rather than perfection.
In North America, and specifically Toronto, where I am from, people I meet embrace imperfection and it doesn't matter if you're ugly, hot, tall, short, rich or poor, you can appreciate what you have. Once again, I'm not saying that all North Americans are like this but there are people who DO believe in imperfection.
But with Korean people, there is an image that pop culture has been tattooed into their minds. You must be tall, rich, good looking, smart and well-connected... period. Hanging out with Koreans made me the most insecure guy in the world. I always had to worry about fashion, how much money I had, how nice my house was, what kinda girlfriend I had, how tall I was, etc.
Once I stopped hanging out with Koreans, and I'm not talking about the 4 same guys kinda thing, I mean church, volunteer groups, high school and university Koreans, so I've met a lot of different people. But once I stopped all of that and just embraced anything that came to me and I was slowly happier with what I had. I didn't care if I was short or poor or ugly. I just didn't care. And I see some old Korean friends of mine contemplating whether they should get leg surgery or not to become taller and shit, I'm just like wtf?
I don't know. Something is wrong with Korean pop culture. Not Korean culture in general. But pop culture is having too much influence. I know North America has the same problem but why is it that there is so many people who are willing to go against it and they don't give a shit about who complains. People in Korea should have the freedom to not follow this pop culture bullshit without having their balls chopped off.
I'm glad that you are feeling better about yourself now. But I don't really see how you can justify your claim that something is wrong with Korean pop culture. It seems like you mean something along the lines of "The objects of Korean pop-culture desire are bad." And I just don't know what standard you are using to say that some desires are good and some desires are bad. I can totally see you saying the standards Kpopculture uses make you feel bad -- and that is a good reason not to hang out with people that value those things. But I don't see how that gets you to your criticism.
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On November 24 2009 16:00 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 15:01 jjun212 wrote: I hate to generalize but I fell out of love with Korea for a while now. Maybe 1-2 years ago. It's the way that Korean people think that make me very... bitter. I know that every society has their own faults and North America is far from perfect and I know that there is a great push for some people to conform but there are WAVES of people who are strive for imperfection rather than perfection.
In North America, and specifically Toronto, where I am from, people I meet embrace imperfection and it doesn't matter if you're ugly, hot, tall, short, rich or poor, you can appreciate what you have. Once again, I'm not saying that all North Americans are like this but there are people who DO believe in imperfection.
But with Korean people, there is an image that pop culture has been tattooed into their minds. You must be tall, rich, good looking, smart and well-connected... period. Hanging out with Koreans made me the most insecure guy in the world. I always had to worry about fashion, how much money I had, how nice my house was, what kinda girlfriend I had, how tall I was, etc.
Once I stopped hanging out with Koreans, and I'm not talking about the 4 same guys kinda thing, I mean church, volunteer groups, high school and university Koreans, so I've met a lot of different people. But once I stopped all of that and just embraced anything that came to me and I was slowly happier with what I had. I didn't care if I was short or poor or ugly. I just didn't care. And I see some old Korean friends of mine contemplating whether they should get leg surgery or not to become taller and shit, I'm just like wtf?
I don't know. Something is wrong with Korean pop culture. Not Korean culture in general. But pop culture is having too much influence. I know North America has the same problem but why is it that there is so many people who are willing to go against it and they don't give a shit about who complains. People in Korea should have the freedom to not follow this pop culture bullshit without having their balls chopped off. I'm glad that you are feeling better about yourself now. But I don't really see how you can justify your claim that something is wrong with Korean pop culture. It seems like you mean something along the lines of "The objects of Korean pop-culture desire are bad." And I just don't know what standard you are using to say that some desires are good and some desires are bad. I can totally see you saying the standards Kpopculture uses make you feel bad -- and that is a good reason not to hang out with people that value those things. But I don't see how that gets you to your criticism.
I'm sorry. I guess what I was basically trying to say was that, although I have no PhD evidence on what I'm about to state, I believe that Korean pop culture is creating a standard on a mass majority of young Koreans and that is affecting how they view the people around them. Creating insecurities and what not.
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On November 24 2009 13:02 beefhamburger wrote:Many artists produce mini-albums because they are contracted by their entertainment industry to produce multiple albums per year, every year. You will not be able to produce a full album in that short time frame consistently. And since gross income from sales is a mere fraction of what other countries like the US amount to, they HAVE to rely on mass releases in order to turn a profit. For that reason, they have to squeeze as much quality into a mini-album as they can in whatever time they are given. You might want to expand to expand your horizons outside of what akp tells you. PLENTY of artists release full length albums all the time, even the "hot artists." Show nested quote +Mini album means you have 1 song (at most 2) that are designed to top the charts and 3-4 other trash songs nobody cares about. That's great because instead of 10 trash songs you now only have to produce 4 to make an album. I don't see how this is different from any other country in the world. In every country, even Germany, albums consists of a few title tracks while the others are obviously subpar. Yes I'm sure there are good amount of exceptions (even though it is all subjective) but you can't just pin something like that to just Korea and play it off as it not being true anywhere else in the world.
Yeah that's all true. But the mini-album thing was just one tiny example I picked because it came to mind. It doesn't really matter and doesn't change my overall point.
On November 24 2009 12:57 BlackJack wrote: How is this K-pop dude's post any less about Korean pride than the netziens who flame him for dissing a Korean group? He's ranting about the sketch comedy group going to America and ruining Korea's image and having white people mock Korea and making it an embarassment to be Korean.
If that isn't Korean pride I don't know what is. Yet you agree with him while the same time bashing people with national pride. Seems a bit contradictory to me.
I think there's as difference and it's an important difference. As I said earlier I don't think having a healthy amount of national pride is a bad thing, it can be productive and constructive. I'm just saying this blind pride that many Koreans exhibit so religiously, that's a bad thing. If there's something wrong in your country, why not just admit it? There are reasons why things are like they are in Korea, lilsusie's and Optical Shot's posts explain that very well and I agree. But it's not about blaming anyone, it should be about reflecting, understanding and ultimately doing something to make it better.
Having your right to express your opinion restricted by law is obviously a bad thing. In Korea it's not restricted by law, but by culture and social pressure and that's just as bad. There are so many problems I didn't mention like the totally messed up educational system, Korea's two-faced stance towards sex/pornography, racial discrimination, work conditions, gender equality, the outdated seniority system (more power/rights because of your age rather than your accomplishments). All those problems have complicated reasons and have developed over time, I know, but I'm missing the public awareness of these issues. Instead everyone complements themselves how it's great that Korea rose up from nothing to one of Asia's leading countries and how the Korean Wave takes the world by storm. Of course I am overgeneralizing and it's not like Korea completely ignores these issues, just exaggerating to make my point clear.
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On November 24 2009 15:18 Waxangel wrote: caaaaaaal moooltkeeee~~
please :D I pmed him and i'm waiting for his analysis :p
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On November 24 2009 14:34 Athos wrote:Exactly what they sound like. Anyways, a very insightful and interesting post. While I was aware that Koreans are very prideful and nationalistic, I didn't know that netizens carried so much power. Are Korean celebrities so prideful that they allow forum posts they read on the internet to influence how they live there lives? It seems a stark contrast to Western culture, where statements like this have little to no effect on the lives of the people who make them. I feel like I need a better look at how cyberized Koreans actually are. As for the statement itself, I see no reason for this man to be so heavily criticized. However, I also see nothing wrong with old fashioned slap-stick humor. I don't care what culture it is, it's always fun to watch somebody make a fool out of themselves. Are the antics of these Korean comedians in New York really that different from those of Borat? I don't think so, but then again, I haven't seen the clip yet.
There's nothing wrong with good old fashioned slap-stick and I like Korean variety shows (watch them every week). It's just that sometimes when I'm amused about them talking about their "scandals" or when I like a kpop song or when I think some random girl group member is cute, I get this bad feeling that I'm feeding the fire.
Watch Korean TV and you'll notice they have tons of shows promoting Korea in every way possible. Going around the country showing the beauty of the scenery, the warmth of the people, the amazing local food, the modernity of the cities, the cutting edge technology, their respect for the elderly and tradition. They have festivals to raise national pride (I love Korea festival for example), after broadcasting hours are over the channels play the national anthem, they praise the Hangul alphabet as if its the greatest achievement in the history of mankind. They are proud that their girls are the prettiest, they praise lower class jobs in order to show that also the little man is a part of what makes the motherland so great.
I'm not saying all of this is bad. In Germany, TV always seems to be about laughing at the stupidity of your fellow citizens. Germany really could use some of these measure to increase national spirit. The thing is, Korea seems to be completely blinded by all of this. I mean Korea has had amazing development in the past 50 years, but everything comes with a price. But that's not even the problem, every country has its issues, many of them worse than Korea. But it won't get any better if you outlaw everyone who mentions these problems, if you're so into keeping up the facade that you only show kindergarten shows on TV, what do you expect to happen? You can do your politics in the background but its the people who need to realize whats happening.
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Away with all nationalism~~ not just Korean but nationalism in general...big contributor to the 20th century's unhappiness (nationalism influenced World War I, World War II, and numerous other conflicts...)
I hope for the day when the biggest group identity is individual interest group (like TL!!!), not nation...
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There are a lot of problems with Korean society right now. I don't think I could ever really live there anytime soon even if I do like going to Korea.
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Well, I'm Japanese/Korean so I find myself always looking at an awkward situation :/
My friend (Japanese) points out that there're two movements in Korea. The first is that the Japanese Pokke was "stolen" about two years after it was established in Japan, and now the Koreans are selling their derivative (forget what it's called) and calling it the "real" one, despite apparent (I have no idea, never bothered looking, so I'd take his statement with a grain of salt, too) documentation proving the Japanese one came first. Plus I notice most Korean stores in my area sell Pokke, instead of the Korean one, too, so...
Also the Koreans are trying to push for an olympic sport, which is so blatantly a rip off of kendo. But they're calling it a Korean thing, and actually even defending it, arguing that samurai and bushido come from Korea (wtf).
Personally I find it preposterous that Korea's trying to pull this stuff (presumably out of national pride/hatred of Japan), while at the same I find it bizarre Japan's not really defending themselves about this stuff either. I dunno, weird stuff going on.
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Canada9720 Posts
On November 24 2009 22:13 thedeadhaji wrote:I fear that voicing my thoughts on this topic will spark yet another e-drama episode lol
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Basically I agree with Susie. If you grow up in a 1st world nation, then chances are that things have generally been pretty good in your country over the last 100 years. There's lots of good stuff in our country that we can be proud of, so we don't have to obsess over any one thing. At the same time, growing up in the US, we always have to hear about the bad stuff that our country has done to other countries, and I'm sure in Germany it's like that but even more so. Where as Korea has never really done bad stuff to other countries (well, maybe Vietnam), but instead had all this garbage done to them by everyone. So now that it's finally emerged as a first world nation, I guess it's natural that people will be crazy proud of anything there that's number 1 in the world, even if it's as silly as k-pop or figure skating or whatever. It's like, finally they have something they can be proud of, and there's no shame about the past to hold it back. I dunno, that's just my take on the matter.
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On November 25 2009 01:23 Southlight wrote: Well, I'm Japanese/Korean so I find myself always looking at an awkward situation :/
My friend (Japanese) points out that there're two movements in Korea. The first is that the Japanese Pokke was "stolen" about two years after it was established in Japan, and now the Koreans are selling their derivative (forget what it's called) and calling it the "real" one, despite apparent (I have no idea, never bothered looking, so I'd take his statement with a grain of salt, too) documentation proving the Japanese one came first. Plus I notice most Korean stores in my area sell Pokke, instead of the Korean one, too, so...
Also the Koreans are trying to push for an olympic sport, which is so blatantly a rip off of kendo. But they're calling it a Korean thing, and actually even defending it, arguing that samurai and bushido come from Korea (wtf).
Personally I find it preposterous that Korea's trying to pull this stuff (presumably out of national pride/hatred of Japan), while at the same I find it bizarre Japan's not really defending themselves about this stuff either. I dunno, weird stuff going on. The new Korean sword art thing isn't really similar to Kendo at all. It doesn't even compare. It's so shit at the moment that I can't really imagine the Japanese really giving a damn. Koreans were never really talented in the martial arts all that much; the only real weapon that Koreans had great proficiency throughout history was archery. There are tons of things that the Japanese have wronged towards Koreans and they still continue to do so, but arguing that the Japanese sword art originated from Korea is pretty hilariously wrong considering how isolated Japan was through history. I have a reissue of one of the most well known historical Korean martial art books and there was almost no similarity between the Korean sword forms and the Japanese sword forms. The weapons are completely different to begin with. Pretty much both sides are completely bullshitting because the new Korean sword movement is based on the historical Korean martial arts that have little to no similarities with the Japanese arts, and the Korean sword arts had little influence upon the Japanese sword arts through history.
Both sides are retarded.
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My grandparents are all from different places (New Zealand, France, Scotland, Canada) and I never find it awkward. I never find myself thinking so many of my customs and culture are inherited from Britain, but what about Scottish independence! I'm sure some Canadians hold dogmatic blood grudges, but it's something I would criticise. Why do you need to agree with other people to feel comfortable? Can't you have your own opinion, or do you really care about some fools questioning your nationality? Is it really that hard to disagree with a large number of people?
Think about any and every black mark on any country's history. Whatever it was, do you think the majority basically went along/agreed with it at the time, mostly out of the fact that it was widely accepted? So maybe now it's widely accepted to be wrong and perhaps even evil, but do the people accepting these things give it any serious thought, or could they be contributing to more black spots on your country's history? It's better to be controversial than to be complacent.
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I'm not korean but when I watched the episode it didn't seem that bad.. i think the scene in the pizza store was probably the only thign where I felt very awkward, but to me the rest of it was funny and just typical korean variety stuff
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On November 25 2009 03:16 Chef wrote: My grandparents are all from different places (New Zealand, France, Scotland, Canada) and I never find it awkward. Oh come on, New Zealand, France, Scotland, and Canada all do not have anything close to the historical animosity between the Koreans and the Japanese. The animosity has been around since the Imjin Wars, which happened a long time before the end of the Chosun dynasty and the Japanese Occupation era.
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I haven't seen the episode but I have seen many episodes of that show and I can deduce what happened. I feel that he has the right to voice his opinion, as does everyone, and people should get off his back. Korean netizens are way too rabid and their attempt to enforce even more homogeneity on Korean society is very pathetic and shameful.
But, like someone said already, Korea is a small country that has been bullied by its neighbors for centuries and only in the last 50 years has it come forward as an example of economic success in the world. The unification of Germany under Chancellor Bismarck help bring about the great power and economic might that Germany enjoyed, second only to those of Great Britain. It took Germany two world wars and millions of deaths to get where they are now and to recognize the problems that too much nationalist ethos can bring. They also don't suffer from the innate inferiority complex that Koreans have because of our history.
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I like Korean pride and I think the article in the OP is ridiculous in saying Korea copies all of Japans stuff, when historians believe the korean culture is the original Korean/Japan culture and the copying is the other way around.
Pride and nationalism isn't "wrong" per definition. Only if you're german, with evens that happened as recently as 60 years ago. Almost every german has an uncle or grandmother who was affiliated with the nazi party, it's literarly that close in time.
Some k-pop is catchy but most of it is trash indeed. The only reason people like GTR likes k-pop is because it's korean, not necessarily because of the music.
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Modern Korean culture is heavily influenced by japanese culture. No doubt about it, since japan COLONIZED korean peninsula for more than 60 years.
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On November 25 2009 03:47 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 03:16 Chef wrote: My grandparents are all from different places (New Zealand, France, Scotland, Canada) and I never find it awkward. Oh come on, New Zealand, France, Scotland, and Canada all do not have anything close to the historical animosity between the Koreans and the Japanese. The animosity has been around since the Imjin Wars, which happened a long time before the end of the Chosun dynasty and the Japanese Occupation era. So? It's still absurd and shameful. It's still losing personal identity to adopt impersonal mob-mentality.
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Historically, Japanese culture was heavily influenced by Korean culture, although much of Korean culture at the time can probably be attributed to Chinese roots. But modern Japanese culture has been very Westernized, so at least a part of it was Japan forwarding Western culture. And colonization isn't something to brag about, I don't see why you would put such emphasis on such a shameful period.
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On November 25 2009 05:08 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 03:47 koreasilver wrote:On November 25 2009 03:16 Chef wrote: My grandparents are all from different places (New Zealand, France, Scotland, Canada) and I never find it awkward. Oh come on, New Zealand, France, Scotland, and Canada all do not have anything close to the historical animosity between the Koreans and the Japanese. The animosity has been around since the Imjin Wars, which happened a long time before the end of the Chosun dynasty and the Japanese Occupation era. So? It's still absurd and shameful. It's still losing personal identity to adopt impersonal mob-mentality.
Are you kidding me? There's no such thing as a personal identity. You are only deluding yourself if you believe that anything you do is original; almost everything you do, think or say comes from another source and you are a product of the mass media culture that pervades society (if you are an American, or you are a product of your religious culture that determines your thinking, actions and way of life, or...). Your entire identity can be attributed to whatever group you believe that you identify with, whether it be a religious group, a political group, etc.
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On November 24 2009 14:53 GTR wrote: netizens could form a political party and rule korea with an iron fist. thats how much power they have over one country.
who would have thought a single piece of technology (internet) manages to pretty much control a country of 40m+ people.
This is blown way out of proportion.
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United States32520 Posts
On November 25 2009 04:48 kaizenmx wrote: Modern Korean culture is heavily influenced by japanese culture. No doubt about it, since japan COLONIZED korean peninsula for more than 60 years.
35 years, but whatever
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On November 24 2009 14:34 Athos wrote:Exactly what they sound like. Anyways, a very insightful and interesting post. While I was aware that Koreans are very prideful and nationalistic, I didn't know that netizens carried so much power. Are Korean celebrities so prideful that they allow forum posts they read on the internet to influence how they live there lives? It seems a stark contrast to Western culture, where statements like this have little to no effect on the lives of the people who make them. I feel like I need a better look at how cyberized Koreans actually are. As for the statement itself, I see no reason for this man to be so heavily criticized. However, I also see nothing wrong with old fashioned slap-stick humor. I don't care what culture it is, it's always fun to watch somebody make a fool out of themselves. Are the antics of these Korean comedians in New York really that different from those of Borat? I don't think so, but then again, I haven't seen the clip yet. problem with threads like this one is that westerners can form a skewed opinion on a foreign culture and cultivate prejudice opinions from then on. and western celebrities arent affected by criticism? Like all those female-singers going on the famous heroin-diet in order to be slim and hot, the countless surgeries plastic and otherwise, marketing companies farming the young and beautiful and weeding out the old and homely. I get your point was on the netizens in general but I just wanted to add this opinion.
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On November 25 2009 05:17 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 05:08 Chef wrote:On November 25 2009 03:47 koreasilver wrote:On November 25 2009 03:16 Chef wrote: My grandparents are all from different places (New Zealand, France, Scotland, Canada) and I never find it awkward. Oh come on, New Zealand, France, Scotland, and Canada all do not have anything close to the historical animosity between the Koreans and the Japanese. The animosity has been around since the Imjin Wars, which happened a long time before the end of the Chosun dynasty and the Japanese Occupation era. So? It's still absurd and shameful. It's still losing personal identity to adopt impersonal mob-mentality. Are you kidding me? There's no such thing as a personal identity. You are only deluding yourself if you believe that anything you do is original; almost everything you do, think or say comes from another source and you are a product of the mass media culture that pervades society (if you are an American, or you are a product of your religious culture that determines your thinking, actions and way of life, or...). Your entire identity can be attributed to whatever group you believe that you identify with, whether it be a religious group, a political group, etc.
Well, if that is true than the only reason you are saying that is a result of your upbringing -- so you can't claim your statement is true -- instead, you can claim that you say what you say because you had to.
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On November 25 2009 07:52 stack wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 14:34 Athos wrote:On November 24 2009 14:18 MyHeroNoob wrote: what are "suicide petitions" ? Exactly what they sound like. Anyways, a very insightful and interesting post. While I was aware that Koreans are very prideful and nationalistic, I didn't know that netizens carried so much power. Are Korean celebrities so prideful that they allow forum posts they read on the internet to influence how they live there lives? It seems a stark contrast to Western culture, where statements like this have little to no effect on the lives of the people who make them. I feel like I need a better look at how cyberized Koreans actually are. As for the statement itself, I see no reason for this man to be so heavily criticized. However, I also see nothing wrong with old fashioned slap-stick humor. I don't care what culture it is, it's always fun to watch somebody make a fool out of themselves. Are the antics of these Korean comedians in New York really that different from those of Borat? I don't think so, but then again, I haven't seen the clip yet. problem with threads like this one is that westerners can form a skewed opinion on a foreign culture and cultivate prejudice opinions from then on. and western celebrities arent affected by criticism? Like all those female-singers going on the famous heroin-diet in order to be slim and hot, the countless surgeries plastic and otherwise, marketing companies farming the young and beautiful and weeding out the old and homely. I get your point was on the netizens in general but I just wanted to add this opinion. I'm still waiting the suicide petition for Britney.
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On November 25 2009 05:17 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 05:08 Chef wrote:On November 25 2009 03:47 koreasilver wrote:On November 25 2009 03:16 Chef wrote: My grandparents are all from different places (New Zealand, France, Scotland, Canada) and I never find it awkward. Oh come on, New Zealand, France, Scotland, and Canada all do not have anything close to the historical animosity between the Koreans and the Japanese. The animosity has been around since the Imjin Wars, which happened a long time before the end of the Chosun dynasty and the Japanese Occupation era. So? It's still absurd and shameful. It's still losing personal identity to adopt impersonal mob-mentality. Are you kidding me? There's no such thing as a personal identity. You are only deluding yourself if you believe that anything you do is original; almost everything you do, think or say comes from another source and you are a product of the mass media culture that pervades society (if you are an American, or you are a product of your religious culture that determines your thinking, actions and way of life, or...). Your entire identity can be attributed to whatever group you believe that you identify with, whether it be a religious group, a political group, etc.
This is rather unfair IMO. One doesn't have to do something completely new and original to have a personal identity. And few people only identify with one group, most have many groups that they belong to. So their personal identity is the particular combination of all groups they identify with, and the way they combine being in all those groups.
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On November 25 2009 03:09 Luddite wrote: Basically I agree with Susie. If you grow up in a 1st world nation, then chances are that things have generally been pretty good in your country over the last 100 years. There's lots of good stuff in our country that we can be proud of, so we don't have to obsess over any one thing. At the same time, growing up in the US, we always have to hear about the bad stuff that our country has done to other countries, and I'm sure in Germany it's like that but even more so. Where as Korea has never really done bad stuff to other countries (well, maybe Vietnam), but instead had all this garbage done to them by everyone. So now that it's finally emerged as a first world nation, I guess it's natural that people will be crazy proud of anything there that's number 1 in the world, even if it's as silly as k-pop or figure skating or whatever. It's like, finally they have something they can be proud of, and there's no shame about the past to hold it back. I dunno, that's just my take on the matter.
Uh. The majority of the first world underwent two massive world wars less than a century ago, and was pretty much constantly warring between itself before that.
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On November 25 2009 04:45 Foucault wrote: The only reason people like GTR likes k-pop is because it's korean, not necessarily because of the GIRLS.
On November 25 2009 05:08 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 03:47 koreasilver wrote:On November 25 2009 03:16 Chef wrote: My grandparents are all from different places (New Zealand, France, Scotland, Canada) and I never find it awkward. Oh come on, New Zealand, France, Scotland, and Canada all do not have anything close to the historical animosity between the Koreans and the Japanese. The animosity has been around since the Imjin Wars, which happened a long time before the end of the Chosun dynasty and the Japanese Occupation era. So? It's still absurd and shameful. It's still losing personal identity to adopt impersonal mob-mentality. It's not impersonal as there are still many people that have lived through the Japanese occupation. There is vary degrees of mob-mentality, but to many people it isn't some kind of animosity that has arisen due to the cultural stream of thought; it's deeply personal.
On November 25 2009 04:48 kaizenmx wrote: Modern Korean culture is heavily influenced by japanese culture. No doubt about it, since japan COLONIZED korean peninsula for more than 60 years. rofl, never knew the Japanese historical revisionists went as far as to claim that they occupied Korea for more then they have. I thought they only did that with really old, vague history.
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On November 25 2009 08:02 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 05:17 ghostWriter wrote:On November 25 2009 05:08 Chef wrote:On November 25 2009 03:47 koreasilver wrote:On November 25 2009 03:16 Chef wrote: My grandparents are all from different places (New Zealand, France, Scotland, Canada) and I never find it awkward. Oh come on, New Zealand, France, Scotland, and Canada all do not have anything close to the historical animosity between the Koreans and the Japanese. The animosity has been around since the Imjin Wars, which happened a long time before the end of the Chosun dynasty and the Japanese Occupation era. So? It's still absurd and shameful. It's still losing personal identity to adopt impersonal mob-mentality. Are you kidding me? There's no such thing as a personal identity. You are only deluding yourself if you believe that anything you do is original; almost everything you do, think or say comes from another source and you are a product of the mass media culture that pervades society (if you are an American, or you are a product of your religious culture that determines your thinking, actions and way of life, or...). Your entire identity can be attributed to whatever group you believe that you identify with, whether it be a religious group, a political group, etc. Well, if that is true than the only reason you are saying that is a result of your upbringing -- so you can't claim your statement is true -- instead, you can claim that you say what you say because you had to.
Why not? What makes it untrue? The fact that I too am subject to these influences have no relationship to their veracity. And it's not just upbringing, it includes your entire environment.
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On November 25 2009 11:48 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 08:02 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:On November 25 2009 05:17 ghostWriter wrote:On November 25 2009 05:08 Chef wrote:On November 25 2009 03:47 koreasilver wrote:On November 25 2009 03:16 Chef wrote: My grandparents are all from different places (New Zealand, France, Scotland, Canada) and I never find it awkward. Oh come on, New Zealand, France, Scotland, and Canada all do not have anything close to the historical animosity between the Koreans and the Japanese. The animosity has been around since the Imjin Wars, which happened a long time before the end of the Chosun dynasty and the Japanese Occupation era. So? It's still absurd and shameful. It's still losing personal identity to adopt impersonal mob-mentality. Are you kidding me? There's no such thing as a personal identity. You are only deluding yourself if you believe that anything you do is original; almost everything you do, think or say comes from another source and you are a product of the mass media culture that pervades society (if you are an American, or you are a product of your religious culture that determines your thinking, actions and way of life, or...). Your entire identity can be attributed to whatever group you believe that you identify with, whether it be a religious group, a political group, etc. Well, if that is true than the only reason you are saying that is a result of your upbringing -- so you can't claim your statement is true -- instead, you can claim that you say what you say because you had to. Why not? What makes it untrue? The fact that I too am subject to these influences have no relationship to their veracity. And it's not just upbringing, it includes your entire environment.
Because rationality is normative as well as descriptive.
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On November 25 2009 11:48 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 08:02 lOvOlUNiMEDiA wrote:On November 25 2009 05:17 ghostWriter wrote:On November 25 2009 05:08 Chef wrote:On November 25 2009 03:47 koreasilver wrote:On November 25 2009 03:16 Chef wrote: My grandparents are all from different places (New Zealand, France, Scotland, Canada) and I never find it awkward. Oh come on, New Zealand, France, Scotland, and Canada all do not have anything close to the historical animosity between the Koreans and the Japanese. The animosity has been around since the Imjin Wars, which happened a long time before the end of the Chosun dynasty and the Japanese Occupation era. So? It's still absurd and shameful. It's still losing personal identity to adopt impersonal mob-mentality. Are you kidding me? There's no such thing as a personal identity. You are only deluding yourself if you believe that anything you do is original; almost everything you do, think or say comes from another source and you are a product of the mass media culture that pervades society (if you are an American, or you are a product of your religious culture that determines your thinking, actions and way of life, or...). Your entire identity can be attributed to whatever group you believe that you identify with, whether it be a religious group, a political group, etc. Well, if that is true than the only reason you are saying that is a result of your upbringing -- so you can't claim your statement is true -- instead, you can claim that you say what you say because you had to. Why not? What makes it untrue? The fact that I too am subject to these influences have no relationship to their veracity. And it's not just upbringing, it includes your entire environment.
And please don't pm me anymore.
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This thread was entertaining because of koreans who don't live in korea or know korean culture well say some blanket statements and then koreans who live in korea come in to correct it.
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