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I saw a blog about IRC chat. I want to understand what is going on. There is a chatlog saved, but it was too long and I read halfway I felt dizzy. So I give up.
I remember one time teamliquid was down. There is a link for IRC chat channel. And I thought IRC chat channel is open temporary during Teamliquid maintainence.
Only after long time I found out actually there is a link for IRC chat channel at the very very very bottom of teamliquid webpage.
So I am curious again, I visit for fun. I login and... Ah, it is different from Livestream chat. No spamming. But alot *Somebody has joined* and *Somebody has left* . So it is pretty annoying too.
There is only a little people chatting. I come to chat too, but I do not know how to chat.
I mean, I wanted to say hi. But I am scare nobody will reply back. So I try to blend in. That time there are 2-3 people talking about some slut. I am not sure what are they talking about. But I try to blend in anyway.
It goes something like this.
XiaoJoyce-:Which Slut? Someone: You. Someone: XiaoJoyce- the Slut.
I quit IRC chat soon after. Because I feel sad. Sorry, wrong word. I feel awkward. No, Actually I feel sad. Ah, I am confusing. I think I want to say I quit IRC soon after because I feel awkward, little bit sad too, and pretty much confused.
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Recently I play game with someone I know. We were in the same team, then we lost. I was upset, but I guessed he knew since I left the game few seconds before the game is officially over. I think I Rage Quit.
Then he went msn and talk to me
Him: ... Me: Why didn't you help me? I am infront of you, enemy is infront of us. We can kill him if we worked together. Him: Ah, I give up the match, lols. Can't win. Me: Yea, if my ex is playing, we will win the game. Him: Whatever...
And he signed out. At this moment I felt something was wrong. Maybe I said the wrong word. But it all happened too fast. So I thought next time we chat, I am going to say sorry. But we never chat after this incident.
I felt, if he talk to me, I say sorry. If he didn't talk to me. I am not going to care.
I think I should talk to him and apologized. Maybe if I do that, that means I have grown up. keke.
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I remember during secondary school days, I have troubles blending in. Let me introduce my secondary school.
Boy: Talk about Wrestling, Card games, Playstation 2, and other stuff growing up kids talk about.
Girl: More complicated. Too much varieties.
Ah, 1 thing in common, Guys talk about Girls. Girls talk about Guys.
Then there is me.
Me: I am nicknamed Blur. Because everytime teacher ask a simple question I go Huh? or Hmm? or ??? . Sometimes there is alot of question mark floating above my head for no reason. So I get teased alot.
One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since
You know, once u get condemed, it is a very bad situation. There is 1 lame guy in class like to bully me. Do stupid stuff like steal my pencilbox and say he didn't. I told teacher about it and I got scolded.
Ah, sad secondary school days. I should have managed it better.
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I dont think the guy on irc even knew you were a girl. But anyway, i'd LOVE to socialize with you. asl? hi.
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On July 06 2010 20:19 TheAntZ wrote: I dont think the guy on irc even knew you were a girl. But anyway, i'd LOVE to socialize with you. asl? hi.
Lol Antz, I love your posts in XJ-'s blogs xD.
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On July 06 2010 20:19 TheAntZ wrote: I dont think the guy on irc even knew you were a girl. But anyway, i'd LOVE to socialize with you. asl? hi.
ASL is Age, Sex, Location. Right?
Age= Guess. Sex= Guess. Location = Guess. kekeke
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On July 06 2010 20:19 TheAntZ wrote: I dont think the guy on irc even knew you were a girl. But anyway, i'd LOVE to socialize with you. asl? hi. Smooth
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On July 06 2010 20:30 XiaoJoyce- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 20:19 TheAntZ wrote: I dont think the guy on irc even knew you were a girl. But anyway, i'd LOVE to socialize with you. asl? hi. ASL is Age, Sex, Location. Right? Age= Guess. Sex= Guess. Location = Guess. kekeke
Age = Age is just a number baby Sex = Yes please. Not sure how we'd manage that over the internet though but for you, I will attempt anything Location = Judging by your profile I'll wager that you're from Q-T town
so how do we do this? Like exchange messenger/email details or do we hop straight into pic trading? Please be gentle kk, im sensitive
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The long chatlog...I pretty much give up after opening it
But I am so curious....ah....
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On July 06 2010 20:35 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 20:30 XiaoJoyce- wrote:On July 06 2010 20:19 TheAntZ wrote: I dont think the guy on irc even knew you were a girl. But anyway, i'd LOVE to socialize with you. asl? hi. ASL is Age, Sex, Location. Right? Age= Guess. Sex= Guess. Location = Guess. kekeke Age = Age is just a number baby Sex = Yes please. Not sure how we'd manage that over the internet though but for you, I will attempt anything Location = Judging by your profile I'll wager that you're from Q-T town so how do we do this? Like exchange messenger/email details or do we hop straight into pic trading? Please be gentle kk, im sensitive NSFW! Make sure you spoiler the pics!
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United States10328 Posts
aww such a cute blog ^.^ just ... try more often to socialize and you'll slowly learn?
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+ Show Spoiler +Then he went msn and talk to me
Him: ... Me: Why didn't you help me? I am infront of you, enemy is infront of us. We can kill him if we worked together. Him: Ah, I give up the match, lols. Can't win. Me: Yea, if my ex is playing, we will win the game. Him: Whatever...
Heh, does he like you or you like him? Mentioning the ex is kind of a no-no =P
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lesson #1 - Not everything is about you.
You asked "which slut", and the standard response will probably look like that one did. It's teasing, it's what people do to play with each other and laugh as different scenarios occur in these verbal exchanges. It's nothing serious, it's like puppy lions paw-fighting, nobody gets hurt unless you're an oversensitive bitch, which you are at the moment, but that can change easily as you realize things.
So, you can't seriously expect anyone to respond with "Oh, hi XiaoJoyce, welcome to the chat, sunshine!! I assume you're enquiring about our topic of conversation? Well, we were discussing this promiscuous(...)"
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On July 06 2010 22:07 niteReloaded wrote: lesson #1 - Not everything is about you.
You asked "which slut", and the standard response will probably look like that one did. It's teasing, it's what people do to play with each other and laugh as different scenarios occur in these verbal exchanges. It's nothing serious, it's like puppy lions paw-fighting, nobody gets hurt unless you're an oversensitive bitch, which you are at the moment, but that can change easily as you realize things.
So, you can't seriously expect anyone to respond with "Oh, hi XiaoJoyce, welcome to the chat, sunshine!! I assume you're enquiring about our topic of conversation? Well, we were discussing this promiscuous(...)"
Maybe you are right.. sometimes I think too much.
I am sensitive, but not to so big extent..
Actually I already forgot about the incident the moment I quit IRC. I just remember my IRC experience today because there is anoter blog about IRC and I just want to write about it.
Erm, ah, I don't know what to say to defend myself.
Maybe next time I will share more nice experience on blog instead of bad things..
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Well.... your 2 solutions to your problems. 1.) IRC is full of jokes like that. As persons before have said, just don't take it personally. It's a place where people joke around constantly. 2.) Don't mention your ex, and it's ok if you lose a game. Even if the other guy doesn't try... That's life 3.) TheAntz is a high templar. You should take him up on his offer.
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ah xiao, why do you ignore my love? If only baller were here, he could explain my love for you using charts and bars. Since he is not, I will try it myself
Please accept my moist offering, kk~
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bahahahahahah @ the ANTz... hes a star for effort. nice graph.
XiaoJoyce - this is a pretty cute post.. (you probably dont think so though ) ... although i haven't ever had a problem with fitting in social environments be it online or offline... can i suggest...
if its on an online enviroment... just relax. your safe and sound behind that monitor and keyboard.. same goes for phones... if someone is low enough to pay you out, it just means there a complete loser, cos if they really new you i doubt they would call you a slut etc.
but yeah.. just try and relax a bit. you have nothing to lose when on the phone / messenger / chat etc etc. .. you can always just change your nickname haha.. OH wait... i had a good idea.. maybe create a fake nickname first... pretend that your someone else until your comfortable in chat rooms... then go back to being XiaoJoyce.
my 2 cents. best of luck.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
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Joyce, a strange thing about the social world you're in right now is that the less you care about what people think about you, the more they'll like you. Everybody is struggling to seem confident and independent. Being self-conscious or getting upset is a sign of weakness. This is especially true for teenage boys in groups, and over the internet.
When you get older, more people around you will feel secure enough about themselves to want to take care of and encourage others. But you can't rely on this, you need to build up your confidence and independence to be able to stand on your own too.
Here's a good female role model for you: http://celestinechua.com/blog/2009/02/how-to-increase-your-self-confidence/
Good luck! You can PM me if you want to talk more!
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I think your attempts to make friends is wrong, because you are not familiar with the culture in the US. Let me explain. (I've gone through a lot of trouble as well, being a first generation immigrant, so I feel your pain.)
In China, the accepted way to make friends is to be nice, to be kind and respectful, and with lots of personality and unique and cute things to say.
In the US, the way to make friends is also that, but there are 2 stages. Second stage is where you can be unique, cute, personable, etc.
But first stage, you need to show no weakness!! You don't even know them yet. Everyone will be mean to you. If you ask "who is the slut", the answer will be you "you are the slut". If you ask, "Why are black people stupid?" they will automatically say "Because you have no brain". You get the idea.
I think this is because psychologically, between age 12-16 is when people are the meanest. US students learn to do this in high school and middle school. In China, high school and middle school is too stressful to socialize much, so Chinese students don't have time to develop the mean side of their personality.
Also, starcraft is only for nerds, and nerds already have very limited social skills. Secondly, starcraft is very competitive, so only competitive nerds play starcraft, so they are also very mean nerds. For example, if you go on a forum that discusses The Sims, the people there are much nicer of course. But of course, they are also much dumber, because mindless games attract mindless people (I guess mindless people are nicer?).
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Xiao, dont pm Polemarch! Hes a bad bad man and he doesnt deserve your love like i do kk?
look I gave evidence
On March 27 2008 03:45 Polemarch wrote: i think a limited amount of disrespect livens up the forum.
from this thread: click
HE WANTS PEOPLE TO DISRESPECT OTHERS. Do you see what kind of man he is? No? ok here is more evidence
On June 19 2007 16:37 Polemarch wrote: I think also be perfectly fine and interesting to play a variant where allied mines are allowed.
From here: click
He wants to allow allied mines! He likes cheating in starcraft! So bad...omg omg very k
YOU SEE? He is undeserving of being graced by your angelic PMs kk?
我爱你 <3
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I don't think that anyone cares about what you care about. You not caring about what others think is more like a shell that you make after having such a shitty time in highschool.
Being a videogame fan is not the greatest way to be popular in highschool.
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On July 06 2010 23:10 TheAntZ wrote:Xiao, dont pm Polemarch! Hes a bad bad man and he doesnt deserve your love like i do kk? look I gave evidence Show nested quote +On March 27 2008 03:45 Polemarch wrote: i think a limited amount of disrespect livens up the forum. from this thread: clickHE WANTS PEOPLE TO DISRESPECT OTHERS. Do you see what kind of man he is? No? ok here is more evidence Show nested quote +On June 19 2007 16:37 Polemarch wrote: I think also be perfectly fine and interesting to play a variant where allied mines are allowed. From here: clickHe wants to allow allied mines! He likes cheating in starcraft! So bad...omg omg very k YOU SEE? He is undeserving of being graced by your angelic PMs kk? 我爱你 <3
rofll
maybe xiao is cute, who knows. but have you read her blog? there is no coherent thought process. bad news. hahaha
xiao you are too easy to tease. Now I'm doing it too. Look what you made me do. You are horrible!!
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On July 06 2010 23:19 December12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 23:10 TheAntZ wrote:Xiao, dont pm Polemarch! Hes a bad bad man and he doesnt deserve your love like i do kk? look I gave evidence On March 27 2008 03:45 Polemarch wrote: i think a limited amount of disrespect livens up the forum. from this thread: clickHE WANTS PEOPLE TO DISRESPECT OTHERS. Do you see what kind of man he is? No? ok here is more evidence On June 19 2007 16:37 Polemarch wrote: I think also be perfectly fine and interesting to play a variant where allied mines are allowed. From here: clickHe wants to allow allied mines! He likes cheating in starcraft! So bad...omg omg very k YOU SEE? He is undeserving of being graced by your angelic PMs kk? 我爱你 <3 rofll maybe xiao is cute, who knows. but have you read her blog? there is no coherent thought process. bad news. hahaha xiao you are too easy to tease. Now I'm doing it too. Look what you made me do. You are horrible!!
hey man dont call my XiaoAngel- horrible kk? I will get my friend shuttle to drop me near u and throw storms all up in this bitch
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United States10328 Posts
On July 06 2010 23:24 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 23:19 December12345 wrote:On July 06 2010 23:10 TheAntZ wrote:Xiao, dont pm Polemarch! Hes a bad bad man and he doesnt deserve your love like i do kk? look I gave evidence On March 27 2008 03:45 Polemarch wrote: i think a limited amount of disrespect livens up the forum. from this thread: clickHE WANTS PEOPLE TO DISRESPECT OTHERS. Do you see what kind of man he is? No? ok here is more evidence On June 19 2007 16:37 Polemarch wrote: I think also be perfectly fine and interesting to play a variant where allied mines are allowed. From here: clickHe wants to allow allied mines! He likes cheating in starcraft! So bad...omg omg very k YOU SEE? He is undeserving of being graced by your angelic PMs kk? 我爱你 <3 rofll maybe xiao is cute, who knows. but have you read her blog? there is no coherent thought process. bad news. hahaha xiao you are too easy to tease. Now I'm doing it too. Look what you made me do. You are horrible!! hey man dont call my XiaoAngel- horrible kk? I will get my friend shuttle to drop me near u and throw storms all up in this bitch
roflrofl you are too good
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- OTI: troll more. when you don't troll, lurk. - IRL: call friends to meet up and hang out when you have free time. find activities which you can do together. it feels less awkward when you talk while having something to do.
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On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job
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Never have I seen a girl on this dreary internet that I have liked as much as you! Gonna have to write a poem for you maybe kk Give me just a sign, any sign that u return my feelings? I will be very thankful You are, to me, a goddess, i admire ur every word kk? Up til now, i havent felt such electricity in my hheart and veins!
You arent a stranger to love, are you joyce?
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On July 06 2010 20:19 TheAntZ wrote: I dont think the guy on irc even knew you were a girl. But anyway, i'd LOVE to socialize with you. asl? hi.
XiaoJoyce- is a girl......?????? Holy shit it all makes sense now
On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job
China, I'm guessing. They do that.
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So you are waiting for the teacher to ask you something? That means you are unprepared, and will be like ???? Because apparently you dont work well in situations where you get caught offguard. Instead maybe you could take the initiative, that is, raise your hand in the air and say something if you know its coming anyways.
Maybe teacher will say, so today we are gonna talk about (insert name of book) ------ that you have read because you made your homework, then you instantly raise up your hand.
Teacher say your name and then you say something like
Yeah this book taught me how to (insert something here) --- and i really like this book because (...) , However the most important thing we should get from this book would be (...) , teacher what do you think about (insert something here)?
And teacher will be like ???? Teacher will be like blur.
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TheAntZ, you're creeping me out. I know you're joking and tryin to make her feel better, but it just feels over the top.
The girl is a mess at the moment and I wouldn't wanna spend too much time with a person like that. She needs to see this too and get her shit together. Currently, you're feeding her with some self-esteem, but you can't do that forever, she needs to be self dependant.
On July 06 2010 22:25 XiaoJoyce- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 22:07 niteReloaded wrote: lesson #1 - Not everything is about you.
You asked "which slut", and the standard response will probably look like that one did. It's teasing, it's what people do to play with each other and laugh as different scenarios occur in these verbal exchanges. It's nothing serious, it's like puppy lions paw-fighting, nobody gets hurt unless you're an oversensitive bitch, which you are at the moment, but that can change easily as you realize things.
So, you can't seriously expect anyone to respond with "Oh, hi XiaoJoyce, welcome to the chat, sunshine!! I assume you're enquiring about our topic of conversation? Well, we were discussing this promiscuous(...)" Maybe you are right.. sometimes I think too much. I am sensitive, but not to so big extent.. Actually I already forgot about the incident the moment I quit IRC. I just remember my IRC experience today because there is anoter blog about IRC and I just want to write about it. Erm, ah, I don't know what to say to defend myself. Why would you defend yourself? I'm not attacking, I'm observing. If I'm right, and I pointed out some truth, then I helped you. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, you don't have to prove me I'm wrong coz I am a nobody to you and my opinion should be worth shit to you.
Maybe next time I will share more nice experience on blog instead of bad things..
Why would you do that?
You wrote this blog for a reason. It bothered you so you shared it.
Why would you share a more nice experience? To show us you can be positive? Why would you want to show us anything?
See where I'm getting at? None of your actions should be motivated by what you expect others to react with in return.
The reason your high-school experience was bad is because you were probably weird as fuck. You're trying to impress other people, which means you're tweaking your behavior and calculating everything, i.e. you're being a weasel even if you've never thought of it that way. Nobody likes weasels and believe me, weasels are not hard to spot. You need to be yourself to be happy, but you can't do that until you feel confident you can show your real side.
So... what can you do to pump up your confidence?
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On July 07 2010 00:28 niteReloaded wrote: TheAntZ, you're creeping me out. I know you're joking and tryin to make her feel better, but it just feels over the top.
nite I think if u read my last post again you'd realize I dont want to be creepy, a full commitments what I'm, thinkin of.
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IRC can be often times filled with idiots who don't really post a lot on the site but will sit in the IRC channel and just spam jibberish all day. Don't take anything people say there to heart.
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On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job
This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone.
Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet.
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Antz I'm laughing really hard right now, but stop being a creep. D:
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Calgary25939 Posts
This is the best blog on Teamliquid. I'm completely serious. It's so fresh
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Wait, what, you're a girl? I've always thought you're a guy.
Anyway, no need to think too much. There're a lot of bad people in life but rest assured that the number of good guys is much more. Find yourself something to do, make yourself busy so that negative thoughts don't have chances to appear.
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On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way.
Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth.
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On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. i find that people who come from china (average wise), are stronger in science and anything math related because its beaten into them. People from NA, the ones who arent idiiots, are better at creative thinking. I think it has a lot to do with education standards. In China/Asia, kids are forced to do standard exams that literally dictate their life. If you fail, gg. So all these kids are studying day in and day out, regurgitating textbooks etc etc. The end up being like computers, not really able to think creatively. Here, most kids fool around at a young age. Most end up completely worthless. However, the ones that do stand out, are ones that can think for themselves.
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On July 07 2010 02:21 TunaFishyMe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. i find that people who come from china (average wise), are stronger in science and anything math related because its beaten into them. People from NA, the ones who arent idiiots, are better at creative thinking. I think it has a lot to do with education standards. In China/Asia, kids are forced to do standard exams that literally dictate their life. If you fail, gg. So all these kids are studying day in and day out, regurgitating textbooks etc etc. The end up being like computers, not really able to think creatively. Here, most kids fool around at a young age. Most end up completely worthless. However, the ones that do stand out, are ones that can think for themselves. Meh, i dunno, i'm asian but mostly raised and been to school here @ USA, science/math are my strongest subjects, but i think thats only true is because i have a chinese background and my first language was manderin not english. Or else perhaps my english would be better. who knows.
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On July 07 2010 02:21 TunaFishyMe wrote: Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way.
Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth.
Speaking as one of those Chinese ppl, I can also add that the 'being stronger in science and math' part itself isn't very helpful in the long run, I mean it can get people into college more easily, but most of my Chinese friends (who had a mainland education) tends to do pretty average once they do get into college (the ones who end up doing very well usually ended up that way for other reasons, such as having ambitious personalities etc). There's a difference between being 'educated' and being 'smart', and there's also a difference between being 'smart' and 'having what it takes to be extremely successful' etc.
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I'm asian too and was school in Canada. Math/Science are my strong subjects but thats mainly because my parents have always enforced it. In fact, as a kid, I would have to go to saturday math classes to learn HK math. When I was grade 6, i was doing grade 9 math outside of school. So obviously, when I was in grade 9, i dominated that crap out of everyone else. I don't think it makes me smart cuz I learnt it earlier.
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On July 07 2010 02:39 Kalingingsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:21 TunaFishyMe wrote: Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way.
Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Speaking as one of those Chinese ppl, I can also add that the 'being stronger in science and math' part itself isn't very helpful in the long run, I mean it can get people into college more easily, but most of my Chinese friends (who had a mainland education) tends to do pretty average once they do get into college (the ones who end up doing very well usually ended up that way for other reasons, such as having ambitious personalities etc). There's a difference between being 'educated' and being 'smart', and there's also a difference between being 'smart' and 'having what it takes to be extremely successful' etc. i completely agree. I'm canto, so I know HK fobs. A lot of them dominant in highschool cuz well...its highschool. But in University, they end up being average or below average. I think english starts hurting them. Those who do do well have a strong drive. Educated != Successful Smart != Successful Smart + Educated != Successful the world is really tough out there
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On July 07 2010 02:39 Kalingingsong wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:21 TunaFishyMe wrote: Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way.
Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Speaking as one of those Chinese ppl, I can also add that the 'being stronger in science and math' part itself isn't very helpful in the long run, I mean it can get people into college more easily, but most of my Chinese friends (who had a mainland education) tends to do pretty average once they do get into college (the ones who end up doing very well usually ended up that way for other reasons, such as having ambitious personalities etc). There's a difference between being 'educated' and being 'smart', and there's also a difference between being 'smart' and 'having what it takes to be extremely successful' etc. lol, I wrote that ^.^, but yea I feel the same way. Give me four years and I can confirm or deny the in college part
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Wow, these blogs are so entertaining, it feels like watching thoughts. Someone should write a book in this style, it would be a hit. And only on TL could this turn into a discussion about Chinese education...
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On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth.
Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former.
I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough.
Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education.
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You need to think like your better than EVERYONE yet not act like it, its sounds really bad but it works, just dont make it a mindset, just think that way when your in a situation you think you can't handle.. worked wonders for me.
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Calgary25939 Posts
On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. Can I ask what you are basing this on?
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On July 07 2010 03:05 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. Can I ask what you are basing this on?
He probably has his own source, but I've seen a documentary on this, I'll try to find it and post link.
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On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job
Unless it's something that the teacher said would be kept private and decided to blurt it out, why would they be fired? That's the dumbest thing ever. You don't get better at writing by having your teacher put a shiny star on your crappy paper and giving it an A.
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Me: I am nicknamed Blur. Because everytime teacher ask a simple question I go Huh? or Hmm? or ??? . Sometimes there is alot of question mark floating above my head for no reason. So I get teased alot.
Lol, that's SO ANNOYING. I've got a guy in class who does this all the time, and also asks freaking stupid questions, everybody always facepalms when that dude opens his mouth. He doesn't get bullied tho. Anyway, when you know you are doing something stupid why continue doing it?
The teacher is a huge dick btw.
Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former.
This is complete bull imo. I agree with the guy you quote. You don't have to publicily humiliate one to silent(?) him. As a teacher you should have authority, if you don't have authority you are a bad teacher. Humiliating your students won't do them any good whatsoever. Ofcourse they will shut up. But it's not the right way to do it
Chinese have better ''have a much better work ethic, discipline'' because that's their culture. Like nearly every Asian country. It's how they are raised(''they must bring honor and glory to their family'' a guy I quoted from this forum after being asked why he worked so hard). Not because of teacher publicily humiliating them. Give me a break.
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On July 07 2010 03:05 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. Can I ask what you are basing this on?
http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=5264
http://www.examiner.com/x-423-Colorado-Education-Examiner~y2008m7d3-Is-the-US-falling-behind-the-world
http://www.saratogafalcon.org/content/us-education-falling-behind-those-other-countries
I figured this was pretty much generally accepted that elementary - middle - high school in the USA was horrible compared to many other countries.
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On July 07 2010 03:11 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job Unless it's something that the teacher said would be kept private and decided to blurt it out, why would they be fired? That's the dumbest thing ever. You don't get better at writing by having your teacher put a shiny star on your crappy paper and giving it an A. No, if I understand correctly he said it to the entire class. Like he looked over the essay about her feelings, said to himself "lol, what an idiot" and then shared it with the entire class so they could mock her for both her poor writing and insecurities
On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. + Show Spoiler [Xeris's comment] +Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former.
I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough.
Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. I'll be the first to admit that 80% of the kids in my class are dim, they have neither the diligence or the aptitude to do well in school. But the other 20% are very studious and motivated to do well in school and do. I don't know how we got to "Asians aren't free thinking", I know thats not true. The ones with the aptitude to perform in school are very creative and free thinking and do very well, the problem is that they don't all have this aptitude to succeed scholastically. It's the ones who don't that I think the Chinese system fails, I know these kids and they're terrible stressed and unhappy about something that's out of there control. You can kick them to do well and they can achieve excellent results through pure diligence but I don't think it's healthy or beneficial.
Holistically, the Chinese system pumps more education into more students but I wouldn't say they're miles ahead of us, especially when comparing the best students. The diligence and work ethic comes naturally when you want to work. I can't argue that the strong math/science foundations aren't beneficial and if I were going to ding the American education system for something it would be for not pushing its highest achieving students hard enough. I think more accelerated programs earlier is the best improvement, not the "lets make sure everyone succeeds as a group" we have now. But on the other side of the coin, you can't force someone to learn, just encourage and show the way.
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Reading it to the class is fine as long as the teacher didn't say before hand 'what you write will be private' and change his/her mind when they read the OP's thing.
It's kind of expected of any good teacher, really. You need examples of good and bad writing, what works and what doesn't. Criticism ain't the same as shitting on someone for giggles.
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Nobody here has been in a class, probably younger years, where people are passing notes and the teacher gets ahold of it and reads it? That shit happens.
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Calgary25939 Posts
On July 07 2010 03:32 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:05 Chill wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. Can I ask what you are basing this on? http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=5264http://www.examiner.com/x-423-Colorado-Education-Examiner~y2008m7d3-Is-the-US-falling-behind-the-worldhttp://www.saratogafalcon.org/content/us-education-falling-behind-those-other-countriesI figured this was pretty much generally accepted that elementary - middle - high school in the USA was horrible compared to many other countries. First article - the main discussion is China's diligent students. Focuses on how hard they work because doing well in the standardized tests is a way into a good life. It mentions a few examples of western schools shifting policies to emulate China's "there is only one answer" policies. It goes on to show that there are problems with the Chinese system and that they lead to students who crush standardized tests but have little critical thinking skills.
Second article - I don't even know what this is. It's a quote from one man and ties it into some documentary about two students? Ok, the original source is from the Aspen Institute. A brief look around their website doesn't really explain what they do outside of "preparing people for" and "raising awareness." It's probably legit I just don't know what credentials they have to write this article. Reading the original article here, doesn't really objectively address anything.
Third article - Good article.
I don't get the feeling from reading these three articles that 'education in places like China is miles ahead of the US.' I get the feeling that they have different values taught from them and that the average Chinese student is many times more diligent than even the top American students.
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On July 07 2010 03:46 Hawk wrote: Reading it to the class is fine as long as the teacher didn't say before hand 'what you write will be private' and change his/her mind when they read the OP's thing.
It's kind of expected of any good teacher, really. You need examples of good and bad writing, what works and what doesn't. Criticism ain't the same as shitting on someone for giggles. You don't believe in any level of Student-Teacher trust? There are thousands of examples of shitty essays online and in teaching books, you don't need to break down one of your own students to show an example of bad writing. It sounds purely malicious to me
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On July 07 2010 03:53 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:32 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 03:05 Chill wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. Can I ask what you are basing this on? http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=5264http://www.examiner.com/x-423-Colorado-Education-Examiner~y2008m7d3-Is-the-US-falling-behind-the-worldhttp://www.saratogafalcon.org/content/us-education-falling-behind-those-other-countriesI figured this was pretty much generally accepted that elementary - middle - high school in the USA was horrible compared to many other countries. First article - the main discussion is China's diligent students. Focuses on how hard they work because doing well in the standardized tests is a way into a good life. It mentions a few examples of western schools shifting policies to emulate China's "there is only one answer" policies. It goes on to show that there are problems with the Chinese system and that they lead to students who crush standardized tests but have little critical thinking skills. Second article - I don't even know what this is. It's a quote from one man and ties it into some documentary about two students? Ok, the original source is from the Aspen Institute. A brief look around their website doesn't really explain what they do outside of "preparing people for" and "raising awareness." It's probably legit I just don't know what credentials they have to write this article. Reading the original article here, doesn't really objectively address anything. Third article - Good article. I don't get the feeling from reading these three articles that 'education in places like China is miles ahead of the US.' I get the feeling that they have different values taught from them and that the average Chinese student is many times more diligent than even the top American students.
Yeah, education in China is actually quite poor in many places. Schools are run-down and little funding is put into schools (whereas in California, among other states, most of the state's budget is uselessly funneled into the education system with the result of shiny, glowing schools and yet not-so-glowing grades).
I also agree that what separates the students of China and the US are the students themselves, not actual facilities. A big reason why Chinese students are so diligent is that many come from poor/destitute backgrounds, and their families' only hope of getting a better life is for their child to succeed in a very big way, and the most obvious way would be in school. If the student studies his/her ass off and becomes very smart, he or she could get a scholarship, go to a reputable university, and come out with a degree and get a stable, well-paying job. There isn't much else for them to do to get a better life besides excel in school.
This is somewhat of an irrelevant statistic, but it used to be that UC Berkeley produced the most students who would eventually get doctorates, but now it is third, and the first two are Chinese universities.
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On July 07 2010 04:00 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:46 Hawk wrote: Reading it to the class is fine as long as the teacher didn't say before hand 'what you write will be private' and change his/her mind when they read the OP's thing.
It's kind of expected of any good teacher, really. You need examples of good and bad writing, what works and what doesn't. Criticism ain't the same as shitting on someone for giggles. You don't believe in any level of Student-Teacher trust? There are thousands of examples of shitty essays online and in teaching books, you don't need to break down one of your own students to show an example of bad writing. It sounds purely malicious to me
Again, there's a big difference between criticism and shitting on someone for the sake of doing so. If you can't handle a professional telling you that your essay isn't as great as your mommy told you, then you're gonna get hammered in the real world.
That has absolutely nothing to do with student-teacher relationship. That's the same as your teacher telling you that you're wrong when you raise your hand. Breaching the trust would be like your teacher instructing you to keep a journal that he/she will not share with classmates and holding it up in front of the class and calling you a retard a week later.
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On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education.
You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
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I had to re-read the OP because I forgot what the main post was even about. I always thought it was common knowledge that China's students were always scoring higher then here in the US/Canada, but I never even cared to look into it. Just seemed like one of the things that was always socially accepted as the truth.
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United States12181 Posts
On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education.
Having been a part of the California public school system my entire adolescent life, I know exactly what you're talking about. People throw out dozens of reasons why US schools, and California schools in particular, are so terrible (I went to three California Distinguished Schools [elementary, junior high, and high school], two of them were also National Blue Ribbon winning schools):
- Tenure prevents bad teachers from being fired so there's an extra level of security and reduced accountability. - Teachers "teach the test" because they're mandated by management and the state/municipal government to achieve a certain pass rate on standardized tests in order to secure additional funding for the school (exacerbated by No Child Left Behind from what I understand, but that didn't take effect until after I graduated so I can't confirm). - Threats of lawsuits from parents prevent strict disciplinary action against students (for some reason it seems to be more common for parents to shout "not my kid!" in response to accusations of defiance these days). - I speculate that many teachers simply lose passion for teaching or otherwise lose motivation, filling in the time with movies (we watched Rudy in Pre-Calculus class, Gattaca in Biology, and Zoot Suit in Spanish 4). At the time it was a nice break, but now I feel cheated.
If that's what I got from what are supposedly among the best schools in the state and the nation, I can only imagine how terrible some of the schools in this country are.
EDIT: And I have no idea whether that automatically means schools in other countries are superior, but I'd have to venture a guess that it wouldn't be surprising.
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Asian teachers sometimes (not all) rule the class like its their own little fiefdoms where difference of opinion is not tolerated and often mocked. One time we had to write teacher evaluations which we thought were private but the teacher read some scathing comments and was mad like hell. Good thing we didn't sign the thing but it made life hell for some friends because they were suspected and treated unfairly for the rest of the year. We didn't even think about complaining to the principal. It's a bit of a shock the first time we see Caucasian kids openly defying parents/teachers. And all they get is "Go to your room!"
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On July 07 2010 04:19 Orlandu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. + Show Spoiler + You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states, my Chinese friends aren't Chinese-American, they're Chinese from China, and I'm basing my knowledge from what I've heard from them and experienced in four years of pseudo-teaching experience at a high school, and my own schooling experience.
I'm not saying that China's education is better in every aspect, but what I'm saying is that American education is mostly shitty and I'd much rather prefer a system that helps train students to be incredibly diligent and hardworking.
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Calgary25939 Posts
On July 07 2010 04:38 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 04:19 Orlandu wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. + Show Spoiler + You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states, my Chinese friends aren't Chinese-American, they're Chinese from China, and I'm basing my knowledge from what I've heard from them and experienced in four years of pseudo-teaching experience at a high school, and my own schooling experience. I'm not saying that China's education is better in every aspect, but what I'm saying is that American education is mostly shitty and I'd much rather prefer a system that helps train students to be incredibly diligent and hardworking. ... Xeris. I think you can clearly see these are bad things to base an objective opinion on.
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One time I went back to visit family in Taiwan during the summer, and the kids were never around. I asked why, and the simple, straightforward answer was that they were busy in class. Full time class during summer break completely blew my mind. I mean, I'm a typically lazy guy, so I appreciate slothing around for weeks and months at a time during breaks, but these kids see the time away from school as more time to go get private tutoring! I mean, how much tutoring can you really get when you're ten? It seems ridiculous to Americans, but they really value repetition and diligence so much that if you're not working 24/7, you're falling behind. It's comparable to progaming, where if you only practice the required amount of time, you will lose out to those who practice all the time, and thus you have no choice but to practice all the time.
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On July 07 2010 04:41 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 04:38 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 04:19 Orlandu wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. + Show Spoiler + You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states, my Chinese friends aren't Chinese-American, they're Chinese from China, and I'm basing my knowledge from what I've heard from them and experienced in four years of pseudo-teaching experience at a high school, and my own schooling experience. I'm not saying that China's education is better in every aspect, but what I'm saying is that American education is mostly shitty and I'd much rather prefer a system that helps train students to be incredibly diligent and hardworking. ... Xeris. I think you can clearly see these are bad things to base an objective opinion on. this. international students are by far the cream of the crop. you are comparing the average of the top 2% of a country to the average of a country, so what's the result? OH NOEZ AMERICA DUMB.
Coming from India, the education system there is harsh too, based on the british system except harder. But honestly the people aren't smarter 'naturally' or anything and its not the education system per se, its just that education is culturally important and relevant to people. thats different than basing it on the system used. this is why asian-americans do well even in the 'crappy' american system.
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On July 07 2010 04:38 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 04:19 Orlandu wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. + Show Spoiler + You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states, my Chinese friends aren't Chinese-American, they're Chinese from China, and I'm basing my knowledge from what I've heard from them and experienced in four years of pseudo-teaching experience at a high school, and my own schooling experience. I'm not saying that China's education is better in every aspect, but what I'm saying is that American education is mostly shitty and I'd much rather prefer a system that helps train students to be incredibly diligent and hardworking.
That didn't address much of what I said at all, rather you just further emphasized that the Chinese you know have already been abroad. These two points especially: "My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states." Places other than America do count as being abroad.
I understand why you feel the way that you do, but you need to understand that those Chinese that you have communicated with are very different from your average Chinese student. Even the Chinese on this website, that have never been abroad, will most likely be a bit different from the average Chinese student. It's ok to take what you will away from those people, but you need to understand that there's a lot more to it, and it's difficult to realize that until you really experience it for yourself.
Also, I'm not saying Chinese education is all that bad or anything, I'll leave that debate to others. But it has some very serious flaws that most people are very unaware of.
EDIT: Oh, another interesting point to consider... Many students from other countries that obtain degrees in China often have difficulties using that degree in their home country. There are reasons for that.
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this. international students are by far the cream of the crop. you are comparing the average of the top 2% of a country to the average of a country, so what's the result? OH NOEZ AMERICA DUMB.
or maybe their parents are just really rich.
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Guys if XiaoJoyce ever reads this thread again she'll be scared out of her mind LOL
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On July 06 2010 22:46 TheAntZ wrote:ah xiao, why do you ignore my love? If only baller were here, he could explain my love for you using charts and bars. Since he is not, I will try it myself Please accept my moist offering, kk~
LOL SC2
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Way to shit up someone's blog -.-
btw, statistically, if all education systems are the same, the best student is most likely to come from China(or is it india nowadays).
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I"m pretty sure others have mentioned this, but when a chinese student or any international student comes to USA or north america they're grades will be generally higher not because "chinese educational system is better" but because the child's family and family history value education and more smarter than the vast majority of the population back in their home country. Which is why they were able to come out in the first place.
If you take any random chinese student and make them live in usa for a certain amount of time, not every single chinese student will be able to score much higher than the average american. Infact most likely the grades will be just the same as the average american. It's just that the chinese/asian people that come out of china to study in the USA are just more academically gifted than 95% of those in china.
As for those saying chinese educationg is miles ahead of america, that is totally wrong. In china math is the only subject that chinese is miles ahead of america in. In fact what most chemistry and biology americans learn in high school, chinese only learn it at college.
There's an illusion that all chinese students value education more than american is because they attended a day's worth of class during saturdays. The reason behind that is they're actually forced to go to that class when they reach 10th grade or w/e. They don't have a choice not to go, its just like a regular weekday here in america.
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and if you are a political science student in China, guess how much you'll know/learn compared to... well almost everyone else. lol
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On July 07 2010 01:20 baller wrote: 据已真正决定使用甚至想要做看起来更像人 baller 你用的翻译机也太差劲了
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this thread has derailed so hard its not even on another rail. we're like traveling in space bubbles now its so far off.
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On July 07 2010 06:21 mOnion wrote: this thread has derailed so hard its not even on another rail. we're like traveling in space bubbles now its so far off. It got TheAntz to stop being creepy as fuck though. Mission accomplished.
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On July 07 2010 05:00 Orlandu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 04:38 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 04:19 Orlandu wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. + Show Spoiler + You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system.
For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better.
Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot.
You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more.
Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed.
You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese.
There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states, my Chinese friends aren't Chinese-American, they're Chinese from China, and I'm basing my knowledge from what I've heard from them and experienced in four years of pseudo-teaching experience at a high school, and my own schooling experience. I'm not saying that China's education is better in every aspect, but what I'm saying is that American education is mostly shitty and I'd much rather prefer a system that helps train students to be incredibly diligent and hardworking. That didn't address much of what I said at all, rather you just further emphasized that the Chinese you know have already been abroad. These two points especially: "My best friend (from China) lived there for the first 16 years of his life, I dated a girl I met in France for 4 months who was Chinese and has never been to the states." Places other than America do count as being abroad. I understand why you feel the way that you do, but you need to understand that those Chinese that you have communicated with are very different from your average Chinese student. Even the Chinese on this website, that have never been abroad, will most likely be a bit different from the average Chinese student. It's ok to take what you will away from those people, but you need to understand that there's a lot more to it, and it's difficult to realize that until you really experience it for yourself. Also, I'm not saying Chinese education is all that bad or anything, I'll leave that debate to others. But it has some very serious flaws that most people are very unaware of. EDIT: Oh, another interesting point to consider... Many students from other countries that obtain degrees in China often have difficulties using that degree in their home country. There are reasons for that.
I'm not talking about college / university. I'm talking about primary and secondary education. But yea, I see your points. However, I still feel like there has to be a reason people often say that America's education is really poor, it's talked about in the school system itself, it's talked about in the media, and by adults, etc. It can't just be some random phenomena in my opinion.
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On July 07 2010 06:37 tec27 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 06:21 mOnion wrote: this thread has derailed so hard its not even on another rail. we're like traveling in space bubbles now its so far off. It got TheAntz to stop being creepy as fuck though. Mission accomplished.
Agreed. If the blog has turned from mindless flirting with a girl (WHOA GIRL ON TL GOGO CHARM PATROL) to an interesting discussion on education, I don't see how it could be bad.
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I think it has more to do with culture and values than the actual structure of the system/curriculum. A bright/motivated student is going to be able to make a lot of even a poor environment (to an extent, it can't be too horrible). Likewise, a person with little value in education/critical thinking for whatever reasons (family, personal circumstances, or just stupid) is going to squander good learning opportunities. Not to say that the system shouldn't be improved, but there are a lot of different factors that contribute to success.
The chinese perhaps place too much emphasis on doing lots of math problems. At some point most people probably become numb to it and start memorizing/cheating instead. When it gets to that point, it doesn't build up the mind, it becomes more busywork. However, the u.s definitely is on the other extreme (for ex, the pts needed to get a 500 on the SAT math section is pretty low given that it is so easy...). People shouldn't be failing algebra 2 at really high rates.
Writing is super important and u.s. schools definitely need to do a better job with it. I don't know exactly how it should be done but people need to know basic grammar and how to write a coherent paragraph by the time they graduate.
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On July 07 2010 00:31 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 00:28 niteReloaded wrote: TheAntZ, you're creeping me out. I know you're joking and tryin to make her feel better, but it just feels over the top. nite I think if u read my last post again you'd realize I dont want to be creepy, a full commitments what I'm, thinkin of.
You wouldn't get this from any other guy!
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My family hosted a foreign exchange student from japan twice and both times they were in for a culture shock. In japan, I believe, that touching is a very intimate thing, however my mother is the kind of person to hug everyone she sees so right when he got to our house she hugged him right away. Also, he was very quiet at first (not sure if it was nerves), but eventually over a month he warmed up to everyone and got used to the way we lived.
As for long term integration, I coached a high school kid who was from korea. When he first came he was very quiet and humble, but as time went on, after 2 years or so, he was acting just like everyone else in high school. Loud and comical.
A lot of outsiders misunderstand american culture and even insiders too. People here see self-confidence as a huge personality trait and to not have it, or to even show that you don't have it is a sign of weakness. This is true for both boys and girls but definitely more so for guys. The number one trait in an interview is self-confidence and passion.
At the same time, americans care deeply for each other once they get to know each other. Personally, in middle school I was one of those kids that didn't have too many friends. The way I found to get out of it was to laugh when others laugh (even if they are laughing at you) and to stand up for yourself. As long as you don't make a big deal out of things, most people will think you are cool.
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On July 07 2010 04:18 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 04:00 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 03:46 Hawk wrote: Reading it to the class is fine as long as the teacher didn't say before hand 'what you write will be private' and change his/her mind when they read the OP's thing.
It's kind of expected of any good teacher, really. You need examples of good and bad writing, what works and what doesn't. Criticism ain't the same as shitting on someone for giggles. You don't believe in any level of Student-Teacher trust? There are thousands of examples of shitty essays online and in teaching books, you don't need to break down one of your own students to show an example of bad writing. It sounds purely malicious to me Again, there's a big difference between criticism and shitting on someone for the sake of doing so. If you can't handle a professional telling you that your essay isn't as great as your mommy told you, then you're gonna get hammered in the real world. That has absolutely nothing to do with student-teacher relationship. That's the same as your teacher telling you that you're wrong when you raise your hand. Breaching the trust would be like your teacher instructing you to keep a journal that he/she will not share with classmates and holding it up in front of the class and calling you a retard a week later. He can share it with just you! Like a normal teacher! He can grade your paper, write comments and return it to you with a poor grade and some reasons! He doesn't have to read it to the whole class! You're totally misconstruing everything I say Edit: Also, I'm sorry for destroying this blog. I didn't think this would happen...
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What the hell happened to this blog... How did this turn into a "compare education systems!" thread?
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United States10328 Posts
On July 07 2010 06:13 Exteray wrote:baller 你用的翻译机也太差劲了
LOL I don't even understand his post
anyway yeah I think Chinese culture just emphasizes education a lot more than American culture in general. And (math/science-wise, anyways) Chinese education is at a much faster pace, and students are expected to do much harder problems.
anyway too much derailing hahaha xiaojoyce's cute post --> AMERICA VS CHINA SHOWDOWN
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 07 2010 04:19 Orlandu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. This is one of the reasons. I don't particularly agree with the concept of public humiliation, but at the same time if I had to choose between that and a soft American education, I'd choose the former. I work at my high school, I deal with education every day nd the HS I work at is one of the highest rated public schools in California. It's shocking to me how little a lot of the kids know, many of the 10th and 11th graders I work with can't write a coherent essay. Almost everyone is failing geometry and algebra 2. A big part of the reason for our failure to educate is because we don't promote a rigorous enough curriculum and students aren't pushed hard enough. Again, this isn't the case for everyone. If I was publicly humiliated, I might shut down and stop caring, but then again it might motivate me even more, who knows. Just because many Chinese students aren't 'free thinking' in the way that American students are doesn't mean it's bad. There is no universal law that says our Western notions of freedom of thought and expression are fundamentally better than other modes of thought. All the Chinese people I know (and I know a lot, my best friend is Chinese, my ex gf was Chinese, I went to UCSD which has 99% asians...) have the capacity for deep contemplation of different things, etc. They're not really robotic, except in stuff that pertains to China (like their views on Tibet, from my experience). There really is not much that separates my Chinese friends from my other friends except that all my Chinese friends are much more disciplined, have a much better work ethic, and have a much more solid foundation of education. You should really try living in China for awhile, especially on a university campus if you can, and spend a lot of time communicating with the students. You'll quickly realize many of the strengths and flaws in both your own and their education systems. Chinese education is extremely rigorous, but by no means is it better, and most intelligent Chinese will be quick to point out the flaws in their own education system. For example, as has been pointed out, many Chinese are not particularly adept at creative thinking. There are a lot of reasons for this. Did you know that in China, papers (such as reports, essays, any of that sort of thing) are often not taken seriously at all, to the point where most students download papers from the internet or literally turn in the exact same papers as their classmates? What's more, this is perfectly acceptable and common even from the hardest working students. The 10th and 11th graders you spoke of may not be able to write coherent essays, but many Chinese are certainly not able to do any better. Not only that, but you would be quite surprised at the other forms of cheating that go on in China. It's not uncommon at all for someone to walk into an exam and take it for their friend (especially in English exams), or for people to just blatantly cheat by talking or looking at materials during the exam. You can even often buy the answers ahead of time to many exams, such as the CET-4 or CET-6, as well as others. The list goes on and on. While the 高考,or the infamous high school exam that students take to get into a university, is particularly difficult and taken very seriously, afterwards things change a bit. Many students will study very hard and take them seriously still, but cheating still happens quite a lot. You'll also quickly find that many students tend to specialize in particular areas (such as some kind of math or science), and be quite ignorant in multiple other areas. In fact, Chinese are particularly poor in their knowledge of the rest of the world. Americans may have the stereotype for being the most ignorant about the rest of the world, but anyone who's lived abroad in certain countries can tell you that is very far from being the truth. You would be amazed at the stereotypes you can hear about many different countries when speaking with the average Chinese, and usually what they say is exactly the same (literally word-for-word), even when communicating with people from very different parts of the country. When you engage in any sort of further discussions with most people regarding their respective countries, most people will meet you with confused faces. While that's not a problem unique to the Chinese, they are quite fond of their stereotypes, often more so than those in the West. That being said however, they are very eager to learn more. Chinese are no doubt extremely hard-working in most aspects of their life at school. Many of them go to the classroom to study in silence for hours at a time, every day. As has been discussed, most Chinese are pushed very hard to do well on standardized tests. The problem is that scoring well on standardized tests says very little about how intelligent or how well-educated you are. Many Chinese are able to score well on tests, but often without really even understanding the material. They have become quite good at learning how to do well on tests without actually knowing the material well, and there are many organizations in China designed to improve test scores that further this problem. It is definitely true that many of them do severely lack critical thinking skills, and it's a problem that is not being addressed. You're basing much of what you're saying off of Chinese that have ventured outside of China. Chinese that leave China, even for a short time, are forever changed, and cannot be accurately compared to those who have not. Opening up your mind is something that is difficult to reverse, and it does have a very large effect on overseas Chinese. There are a lot of stereotypes that people in the West believe about China and Asia in general, and their education is one of those things. There are many things about Chinese education that you just won't know or even understand until you experience it first-hand. Most overseas Chinese have no idea either, despite how much they may claim to know, unless they actually went to high school or university in China. There are DEFINITELY strengths in the Chinese education system, and there are most DEFINITELY some very obvious flaws as well. It's quite an interesting thing, and experiencing it will really open up your eyes and make you realize that Western education, and specifically American education, while flawed as well, is nowhere near as bad as what many would have you believe.
I agree with every single point of this post.
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On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since
lol
my friend wrote this for peer evaluation for data management project and the teacher read it to every one of his classes, everyone laughed at him, he sent what he wrote to me:
From the moment he stood up and began to walk towards the computer, I was shocked by his nervousness that he was trying to bury deep in his heart. Although he appeared to be calm and relaxed because he had put tears and sweats through days and nights to prepare for this huge task, inside him, it was like a volcano ready to erupt. Although Ares had not been in Canada long enough to have the best English communication skills, he stood up like a real man and presented his research logically.
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On July 07 2010 06:37 tec27 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 06:21 mOnion wrote: this thread has derailed so hard its not even on another rail. we're like traveling in space bubbles now its so far off. It got TheAntz to stop being creepy as fuck though. Mission accomplished.
On July 07 2010 06:46 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 06:37 tec27 wrote:On July 07 2010 06:21 mOnion wrote: this thread has derailed so hard its not even on another rail. we're like traveling in space bubbles now its so far off. It got TheAntz to stop being creepy as fuck though. Mission accomplished. Agreed. If the blog has turned from mindless flirting with a girl (WHOA GIRL ON TL GOGO CHARM PATROL) to an interesting discussion on education, I don't see how it could be bad.
Actually thats not what caused me to stop, but ok. You guys are seriously strangers to love if you dont get my posts. You wouldnt think it was creepy if you knew the rules. She knows them, and so do I.
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On July 07 2010 03:53 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 03:32 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 03:05 Chill wrote:On July 07 2010 03:01 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 02:14 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 07 2010 00:45 Xeris wrote:On July 06 2010 23:42 n.DieJokes wrote:On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:One day I am so upset during composition writing I wrote about my feelings. Teacher find it ridiculous and read my writing to every1. I got condemed ever since This teacher is a dick, I can't believe someone would do that. At my school they would instantly lose their job This is pretty standard in Chinese culture. At my best friend's middle school in China, the teacher would throw bad grades on the floor and make the kids go pick them up off the floor in front of the rest of the class. Chinese education is very demanding, in America kids are way too soft and get babied by everyone. Our kids wouldn't be as dumb if we had a humiliation-based way of punishing people for incompetence the way China does. Think you'd be motivated to get a good grade on a test if you knew getting a bad grade meant humiliation? You bet. Thats bullshit, if I thought a teacher would humiliate me when I did poorly I would tune out his opinion and his class. The classes I've tried my hardest in are the ones where I liked and respected the teacher. I don't know whats warped your perception in this way but education isn't for everyone, not every student should be pushed and shoved and kicked into doing well in school. There are other things in life and it's very a stressful and unhealthy experience for the Chinese kids I've met who are pushed in this way. Obviously in this case it didn't do XiaoJoyce any good, he made her feel embarrassed and ashamed for trusting him and sharing her feelings. Tell me how it breaking her self-confidence and aleinating her from her classmates promoted her intellectual growth. Obviously nothing is good for everybody. But there is a reason why the education in places like China is miles ahead of the US. Can I ask what you are basing this on? http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=5264http://www.examiner.com/x-423-Colorado-Education-Examiner~y2008m7d3-Is-the-US-falling-behind-the-worldhttp://www.saratogafalcon.org/content/us-education-falling-behind-those-other-countriesI figured this was pretty much generally accepted that elementary - middle - high school in the USA was horrible compared to many other countries. First article - the main discussion is China's diligent students. Focuses on how hard they work because doing well in the standardized tests is a way into a good life. It mentions a few examples of western schools shifting policies to emulate China's "there is only one answer" policies. It goes on to show that there are problems with the Chinese system and that they lead to students who crush standardized tests but have little critical thinking skills. Second article - I don't even know what this is. It's a quote from one man and ties it into some documentary about two students? Ok, the original source is from the Aspen Institute. A brief look around their website doesn't really explain what they do outside of "preparing people for" and "raising awareness." It's probably legit I just don't know what credentials they have to write this article. Reading the original article here, doesn't really objectively address anything. Third article - Good article. I don't get the feeling from reading these three articles that 'education in places like China is miles ahead of the US.' I get the feeling that they have different values taught from them and that the average Chinese student is many times more diligent than even the top American students.
And this is why, in almost every case, I love Chill's posts.
Edit: On-topic (or at least the topic this blog has now moved to)
The poster who said self-confidence is everything in America has the right of it. We are focused on Credentials, not Competence. (capitalized for emphasis)
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On July 07 2010 12:37 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 06:37 tec27 wrote:On July 07 2010 06:21 mOnion wrote: this thread has derailed so hard its not even on another rail. we're like traveling in space bubbles now its so far off. It got TheAntz to stop being creepy as fuck though. Mission accomplished. Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 06:46 Xeris wrote:On July 07 2010 06:37 tec27 wrote:On July 07 2010 06:21 mOnion wrote: this thread has derailed so hard its not even on another rail. we're like traveling in space bubbles now its so far off. It got TheAntz to stop being creepy as fuck though. Mission accomplished. Agreed. If the blog has turned from mindless flirting with a girl (WHOA GIRL ON TL GOGO CHARM PATROL) to an interesting discussion on education, I don't see how it could be bad. Actually thats not what caused me to stop, but ok. You guys are seriously strangers to love if you dont get my posts. You wouldnt think it was creepy if you knew the rules. She knows them, and so do I.
I'm going to have to side with TheAntz on this one, he's been a class act the entire time.
You wouldn't get this from any other guy.
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On July 06 2010 23:10 December12345 wrote: I think your attempts to make friends is wrong, because you are not familiar with the culture in the US. Let me explain. (I've gone through a lot of trouble as well, being a first generation immigrant, so I feel your pain.)
In China, the accepted way to make friends is to be nice, to be kind and respectful, and with lots of personality and unique and cute things to say.
In the US, the way to make friends is also that, but there are 2 stages. Second stage is where you can be unique, cute, personable, etc.
But first stage, you need to show no weakness!! You don't even know them yet. Everyone will be mean to you. If you ask "who is the slut", the answer will be you "you are the slut". If you ask, "Why are black people stupid?" they will automatically say "Because you have no brain". You get the idea.
It's odd that you bring up nation's and how they make initially make friends. In Japan, for men, I think it has a lot to do with being part of the same group doing the same thing with the same interests... and being able to show a degree of skill or talent for whatever people are doing.
Anywho, it's a cute blog and I think we've all been there (not to discount ur experience).
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Secondary school is like that. Thinking back to my sec school days, the good looking ones have most friends and gf/bfs. If not good looking, will be bullied. It is a popularity contest, I find it immature but trust me the politics in working life is also quite stressful lol
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On July 07 2010 14:28 oddo123 wrote: Secondary school is like that. Thinking back to my sec school days, the good looking ones have most friends and gf/bfs. If not good looking, will be bullied. It is a popularity contest, I find it immature but trust me the politics in working life is also quite stressful lol
No...I can 100% garentee this is not true keke. Good looking people can have sad life in school too.
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On July 06 2010 20:06 XiaoJoyce- wrote:
Ah, 1 thing in common, Guys talk about Girls. Girls talk about Guys.
There you go, talk about girls with the boys, and about boys with the girls
On July 07 2010 06:54 Bereft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 00:31 TheAntZ wrote:On July 07 2010 00:28 niteReloaded wrote: TheAntZ, you're creeping me out. I know you're joking and tryin to make her feel better, but it just feels over the top. nite I think if u read my last post again you'd realize I dont want to be creepy, a full commitments what I'm, thinkin of. You wouldn't get this from any other guy!
I think he just wants to tell her how he's feeling, gotta make her understand
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On July 07 2010 17:53 XiaoJoyce- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 14:28 oddo123 wrote: Secondary school is like that. Thinking back to my sec school days, the good looking ones have most friends and gf/bfs. If not good looking, will be bullied. It is a popularity contest, I find it immature but trust me the politics in working life is also quite stressful lol No...I can 100% garentee this is not true keke. Good looking people can have sad life in school too. A. You can guarantee good looking people have sad high school experiences B. You had a sad high school experience C. :3
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
(edit: decided to derail TheAntZ's blog instead)
On topic: guys will randomly start to hate a girl because they were attracted to her at first, but became upset at her for some unimportant reason. Also, disliking the girl makes it easier for them to get over their attraction towards her. This is not the girl's fault in any way: it is simply the guys' way of dealing with their own problems.
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what? How can there even be a debate about whether the american system is better than the chinese. Its still ahead but everyone else in the develped world is also ahead of america. Ur university are the best though . No contest. chinese university sux bad. Compulsory socialism course and the same textbook memory game. Not the best way to teach Id say.
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On July 07 2010 17:53 XiaoJoyce- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2010 14:28 oddo123 wrote: Secondary school is like that. Thinking back to my sec school days, the good looking ones have most friends and gf/bfs. If not good looking, will be bullied. It is a popularity contest, I find it immature but trust me the politics in working life is also quite stressful lol No...I can 100% garentee this is not true keke. Good looking people can have sad life in school too. conceited
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