I’m sure most of you can feel it. There are big things happening in e-sports, and specifically in Starcraft. The State of the Game Panel maxed out the PAX East venue hours before it began, and flooded Kingston HyperX with love messages for their continued sponsorship. Starcraft 2 has been announced for World Cyber Games, and was given its own main stage at Major League Gaming Dallas this past weekend. In countless ways, the community is growing, it’s changing, and it’s creating a buzz. For many citizens of the e-sports world, this motivates us to ask “How can I help?” I suggest that, as a community, we collectively have the potential to be an unstoppable, positive, impactful force – but we may need to take a moment to re-align our approach if we are to make real progress.
Last year at MLG Dallas, sparse benches and a small room weren’t capable of containing the love that the community wanted to give Starcraft 2. We spoke out to MLG, and they listened. This year at MLG Dallas, we had a main stage with just as many seats as the shooters (still not quite enough ) and marked attention from the event organizers. It’s important that we count that improvement as a success, both on our part, and on the part of MLG. However, no-one, including MLG leadership, will tell you that the MLG experience this weekend was anywhere close to optimal. Issues with unstable live stream, in-game lag, and in-house audio containment kept many viewers from experiencing the event that they paid for, and, arguably, even impacted the outcome of a few matches. I am proud that, as a community, we are again making our voices known (and serious props to MLG for their sense of responsibility and continued desire to listen and improve http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=209086). That said, as we endeavor to make our concerns heard, it is imperative that we do so in a way that will maximize the chances of improvement.
I was recently encouraged to read “The No Complaining Rule” by Jon Gordon, and it opened my eyes to some enlightening research on the science of positivity, negativity, and getting results. According to research by John Gottman, cited in the book, work groups with positive to negative interaction ratios of 3:1 are significantly more productive than teams that do not reach this ratio. That’s not to say we shouldn’t ever have negative interactions – it’s necessary to address tough issues and hold each other accountable – what it does mean, though, is that positivity brings about change. When we mindlessly flame or troll an organization, person, or situation, we may feel better, we may get agreement from our peers, but rarely will we truly get the ear of those who are capable of implementing change.
As the book puts it “The goal is not to eliminate all complaining. The intent is to eliminate the kind of mindless complaining that doesn’t serve a greater purpose and allow complaining that is justified and worthwhile.” If you think about it, how much better and how much more powerful would we be if every member of our community was committed to offering a solution (or 2) alongside every complaint? “The lag @^#^& sucked and the audio in the venue makes the results invalid” does make known a concern, but how much more useful is “please push Blizzard to come alongside you with solutions like dedicated server or LAN support” and “I think sound-proof booths on the main stage would really improve the experience and, in the long run, save you money.” How much more are you willing to change for someone when they build you up instead of beat you down?
There is power both in our numbers and in our intellect, SC2 community. We have proven over and over that we are capable and willing to hold ourselves to a higher standard when it comes to conduct. We need leaders who will step up and take responsibility for the change we want to see in this industry. To that end, I propose a “No Complaining Rule” when it comes to our efforts to grow e-sports: a commitment to accompany every complaint with a solution, a culture with an attitude of positivity that will help us work together with the organizations that we care about, coming alongside them to offer guidance as we work toward a common goal: the realization of our mutual passions.
This "No Complaining Rule" would be a dream come true for me to see widely adopted. The sickening amounts of cynicism that run rampant these days can be so disheartening. Thanks for your post, Anna, and hopefully more people take your words to heart!
Why is complaining looked down at as a bad thing? MLG isn't a charity; it is a for-profit organization. It's goal is to make money off us, the viewers and players, so we are entitled to complain. We're both the consumers of their content and the product for their advertisers.
It really bothers me a lot when people jump up to defend companies. Their role is to satisfy us enough that they can take our money -- something MLG clearly didn't do well at last weekend.
Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations.
You are absolutely right. The SC2 community can't grow if all we do is bitch about everything, but instead we need to focus our energy on trying to improve and better the community.
You seemed quite busy running around left and right getting pictures and interviews. Thanks for your coverage at MLG this weekend!
I understand you have good intentions but people are going to shit on things, this is the internet, I'm pretty sure that's what the internet was invented for.
edit: I think people just need to learn and recognize the different between constructive criticism and stupid bitching and learn to ignore what needs to be ignored, I remember when GomTV was going to charge $20 for season tickets etc, complaining is what got everybody a more fair deal. The bitching and shitting on things isn't going anywhere, get used to it.
Well said and I agree. Personally heard back from some MLG people on twitter just because I was staying positive. It's VERY obvious MLG (and Sundance, their CEO) really care about SC2. People need to do their best to support MLG, not bash them for trying to give us something better. Sure, Dallas was, overall, a poor experience for anyone who wasn't there in person but MLG has made it clear they are not happy with that.
Like I said on twitter: MLG learned from Dallas and it will only get better.
Might not even be perfect in Columbus but by the time the 2011 season is over they will have this stuff mastered and bring us a really good show worthy of purchasing the HD pass for.
On April 05 2011 15:37 hmunkey wrote: Why is complaining looked down at as a bad thing? MLG isn't a charity; it is a for-profit organization. It's goal is to make money off us, the viewers and players, so we are entitled to complain. We're both the consumers of their content and the product for their advertisers.
It really bothers me a lot when people jump up to defend companies. Their role is to satisfy us enough that they can take our money -- something MLG clearly didn't do well at last weekend.
Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations.
Plz read the OP before debating.
As the book puts it “The goal is not to eliminate all complaining. The intent is to eliminate the kind of mindless complaining that doesn’t serve a greater purpose and allow complaining that is justified and worthwhile.” If you think about it, how much better and how much more powerful would we be if every member of our community was committed to offering a solution (or 2) alongside every complaint? “The lag @^#^& sucked and the audio in the venue makes the results invalid” does make known a concern, but how much more useful is “please push Blizzard to come alongside you with solutions like dedicated server or LAN support” and “I think sound-proof booths on the main stage would really improve the experience and, in the long run, save you money.” How much more are you willing to change for someone when they build you up instead of beat you down?
well written! Competitive gaming is in a constant state of flux, but is once again on a major upswing. If we continue to support those who can truly add value to eSports, and tell them how to improve, I believe we can make them listen
This is written like we're putting all our eSports eggs into MLG's basket. Last weekend for MLG, I just stopped watching the stream and didn't even bother trying to load it up and instead just deferred to TL's twitter. I'm getting a vibe that if I don't support a poorly run event, I'm not supporting eSports, which I don't understand. It's the Internet, and there will ALWAYS be unnecessary negativity, but saying that people are being too negative because they're being fairly critical isn't much better. I don't see how it's hard to sort out the good complaints from the bad ones.
I'll support eSports by supporting companies and events that are well run so that eSports is under good hands. I know MLG may have just fallen under unlucky times, but in the end they're going to have to find a streaming model that works because I'm not a fan of just hyping up a company just because they're under the mantra of "growing eSports".
hmunkey, you can't view MLG as just another business. If the Radio Shack in your town keeps messing up despite constant complaining, people will stop going there, and it will close down. Big deal. If that happens to Major League Gaming, suddenly we don't have a place to congregate, we don't have an avenue for live competitive play for thousands of dollars six times a year throughout the country. If we don't support MLG despite their short-comings, the game that we watch and play and discuss here every day would take a huge blow to its success and its feasibility for competition and for entertainment.
Edit: LOL LOOK I'M DREWBIE. Just kidding, this is JoshSuth. I'm using drewbie's laptop to export videos, forgot to log out. My bad. =P
On April 05 2011 15:37 hmunkey wrote: Why is complaining looked down at as a bad thing? MLG isn't a charity; it is a for-profit organization. It's goal is to make money off us, the viewers and players, so we are entitled to complain. We're both the consumers of their content and the product for their advertisers.
It really bothers me a lot when people jump up to defend companies. Their role is to satisfy us enough that they can take our money -- something MLG clearly didn't do well at last weekend.
Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations.
The problem (and point) is that complainers rarely bring anything new to the table or suggestions for change.
On April 05 2011 15:43 shindigs wrote: I'm trying to agree with this post, but I can't.
This is written like we're putting all our eSports eggs into MLG's basket. Last weekend for MLG, I just stopped watching the stream and didn't even bother trying to load it up and instead just deferred to TL's twitter. I'm getting a vibe that if I don't support a poorly run event, I'm not supporting eSports, which I don't understand. It's the Internet, and there will ALWAYS be unnecessary negativity, but saying that people are being too negative because they're being fairly critical isn't much better.
I'll support eSports by supporting companies and events that are well run so that eSports is under good hands. I know MLG may have just fallen under unlucky times, but in the end they're going to have to find a streaming model that works because I'm not a fan of just hyping up a company just because they're under the mantra of "growing eSports".
I agree completely. And the post you just made is well thought out and constructive. That's the kind of feedback we need: telling organizations what we want, and focusing on the ones that are working to get it right. I'm by no means advicating for or against MLG. Simply using them as an example to illustrate that we will get further with posts like this than anything else.
Excellent post. We must all remember that as we grow esports it will experience growing pains. QQing in a LR thread isn't going to fix these problems that will arise. What will fix them are people who care. Sc2 has acomplished a lot in it's short history in terms of promoting esports but we must not become complacent and whiny, we must continue to improve.
The question becomes how to do you view these hiccups such as MLG. Are they problems that can be overcome or a reason to go bitch in LR and declare sc2 dead on arrival. Personally I choose the former, the only reason I bitch in LR is if Stork loses :D
On April 05 2011 15:44 drewbie.root wrote: hmunkey, you can't view MLG as just another business. If the Radio Shack in your town keeps messing up despite constant complaining, people will stop going there, and it will close down. Big deal. If that happens to Major League Gaming, suddenly we don't have a place to congregate, we don't have an avenue for live competitive play for thousands of dollars six times a year throughout the country. If we don't support MLG despite their short-comings, the game that we watch and play and discuss here every day would take a huge blow to its success and its feasibility for competition and for entertainment.
Edit: LOL LOOK I'M DREWBIE. Just kidding, this is JoshSuth. I'm using drewbie's laptop to export videos, forgot to log out. My bad. =P
So I should support MLG despite any mistakes the make and the complainers are in the wrong solely because MLG is important? I disagree with that notion. Maybe it's the pragmatist in me, maybe the cynic, but I don't think companies should be able to deliver a shoddy product regardless of their position. Hiding under the label of "supporting eSports" doesn't mean they shouldn't receive as much criticism as any other business. Thankfully though, we now have the IPL and NASL, and with competition MLG will be forced to improve their events out of necessity.
The same mindset applies to pretty much every company when you think about it. If Google was unable to maintain a site with accurate results and steady uptime, you can bet people will complain. However, we're lucky Google has stuff competition and thus makes sure their product is the best it can be. With the new western eSports competition we have here, MLG will hopefully do the same.
The last MLG was the worst of all MLG's for everyone not at the event themselves. Day 1 and 2 were nearly not existant, day 3 was also delayed and had unnessesary waiting times.
There is just absoluetly NOTHING to he happy about for people like me that tryed to watch it from their homes. It was probably the worst "professional"-tournament that ever was streamed (or better: should have been streamed). Even after the stream was "up" there were unessesary downtimes while the top 8 (?) were duking it out.
No Complaining? There is nothing else to do. This was the worst viewing experience of any SC2 tournament i have ever watched (that includes weekly tournaments).
Or is "positive" feedback something like: The games you showed were awesome! Please try to show many more next time!
Feedback can be good or bad regardless of whether it is positive or negative. However, a good rule of thumb is that positive feedback is especially valuable when the prevailing attitude is negative and vice-versa. The enemy is groupthink, which cuts out dissenting opinions and leads to failure. If most people are hating on MLG, even lower quality supportive sentiments are more valuable because any insight is better than hearing the same old story for the tenth time.
Negative comments do present value. MLG is looking at a goldmine of viewership, which is why they are interested in Starcraft II. It's easy to assume that any major sponsorship of gaming is good for gamers, but that's not true. (If you haven't figured this out yet, go watch G4TV.) The outcry we see sends a message that MLG does need to satisfy certain basic requirements in order to pull these viewer numbers. I'd rather see MLG fail than I would a truly horrible tournament draw the community's attention and money away from other contenders.
Hate complaining? There is nothing stopping you from writing a post you consider to be more helpful and more positive. The onus is on MLG to consider feedback, take a long, hard look at themselves, and live up to higher standards beyond just keeping the stream running.
On April 05 2011 15:44 drewbie.root wrote: hmunkey, you can't view MLG as just another business. If the Radio Shack in your town keeps messing up despite constant complaining, people will stop going there, and it will close down. Big deal. If that happens to Major League Gaming, suddenly we don't have a place to congregate, we don't have an avenue for live competitive play for thousands of dollars six times a year throughout the country. If we don't support MLG despite their short-comings, the game that we watch and play and discuss here every day would take a huge blow to its success and its feasibility for competition and for entertainment.
Edit: LOL LOOK I'M DREWBIE. Just kidding, this is JoshSuth. I'm using drewbie's laptop to export videos, forgot to log out. My bad. =P
I pointed this out while replying to Anna, but I don't see why everyone is putting their eSports eggs into MLG's baskets. Say MLG dies, then another organization will take its place - NASL? IPL? Another eSports startup? If we want the best for eSports, I say support the organization that does it the best. I'm pretty sure MLG are aware of their mistakes, and they aren't going to get fixed with us patting them on the back and saying "Man you guys really tried, A for effort."
I'm actually an optimist when it comes to ESPORTS, so I agree that we should all try to improve it, but we can't just give everyone a high five for trying. There are a lot of startup tournaments that never got off the ground or have just died due to lack of interest or them being poorly run. If I don't support them, am I killing eSports because I won't congratulate them on a poorly run effort?
On April 05 2011 15:37 hmunkey wrote: Why is complaining looked down at as a bad thing? MLG isn't a charity; it is a for-profit organization. It's goal is to make money off us, the viewers and players, so we are entitled to complain. We're both the consumers of their content and the product for their advertisers.
It really bothers me a lot when people jump up to defend companies. Their role is to satisfy us enough that they can take our money -- something MLG clearly didn't do well at last weekend.
Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations.
As the book puts it “The goal is not to eliminate all complaining. The intent is to eliminate the kind of mindless complaining that doesn’t serve a greater purpose and allow complaining that is justified and worthwhile.” If you think about it, how much better and how much more powerful would we be if every member of our community was committed to offering a solution (or 2) alongside every complaint? “The lag @^#^& sucked and the audio in the venue makes the results invalid” does make known a concern, but how much more useful is “please push Blizzard to come alongside you with solutions like dedicated server or LAN support” and “I think sound-proof booths on the main stage would really improve the experience and, in the long run, save you money.” How much more are you willing to change for someone when they build you up instead of beat you down?
Sorry if you think I didn't read what you had to say, because I truly did and I agreed with parts of it to an extent. That said, I'd still like to direct you towards my final paragraph:
"Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations."
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I meant, so here I go again. Constructive criticism is a great thing; no one will argue with you there. However, MLG is a company. The pressure is on them to make sure they deliver a satisfactory product, not on us. Personally I don't find whining to be worth my time, but if others want to, they're completely entitled to it. MLG asked for money in exchange for a product they didn't deliver. They didn't donate anything out of the kindness of their hearts. The complaining absolutely helps. It tells MLG they messed up. It shows them that their revenue stream is in jeopardy. It forces them to work towards a solution.
If we were talking about the game for charity marathons, I would not be taking the "they're a company, they need to figure it out" standpoint. But we're not, so I am.
On April 05 2011 16:00 Velr wrote: The last MLG was the worst of all MLG's for everyone not at the event themselves. Day 1 and 2 were nearly not existant, day 3 was also delayed and had unnessesary waiting times.
There is just absoluetly NOTHING to he happy about for people like me that tryed to watch it from their homes. It was probably the worst "professional"-tournament that ever was streamed (or better: should have been streamed). Even after the stream was "up" there were unessesary downtimes while the top 8 (?) were duking it out.
No Complaining? There is nothing else to do. This was the worst viewing experience of any SC2 tournament i have ever watched (that includes weekly tournaments).
Or is "positive" feedback something like: The games you showed were awesome! Please try to show many more next time!
This is what happens when you try to post without reading the OP, thinking you have the gist. =/
Ms. Prosser bringing the noise. It's nice to see a well written post with some thought put behind it. I agree, and I hope many of the denizens of this fine site will at least mull over your words and consider them, as it is something the community needs to hear. Though those with the loudest voices will enevitably have the least to say, as the saying goes, I hope this post encourages some to think twice about their comments and try to put their frustration into a more productive use. Two thumbs up.
After reading this blog i shall take it to heart and be sure to follow this example for atleast the next 3 months, if we all did this it would indeed help boost our community and Esports to the heights it deserves
On April 05 2011 16:00 Velr wrote: The last MLG was the worst of all MLG's for everyone not at the event themselves. Day 1 and 2 were nearly not existant, day 3 was also delayed and had unnessesary waiting times.
There is just absoluetly NOTHING to he happy about for people like me that tryed to watch it from their homes. It was probably the worst "professional"-tournament that ever was streamed (or better: should have been streamed). Even after the stream was "up" there were unessesary downtimes while the top 8 (?) were duking it out.
No Complaining? There is nothing else to do. This was the worst viewing experience of any SC2 tournament i have ever watched (that includes weekly tournaments).
Or is "positive" feedback something like: The games you showed were awesome! Please try to show many more next time!
Is this sarcastic or are you just going out of your way to do the opposite of this blog's point?
Edit: Good read Anna I sincerely hope more people take this point of view during upcoming venues.
On April 05 2011 15:44 drewbie.root wrote: hmunkey, you can't view MLG as just another business. If the Radio Shack in your town keeps messing up despite constant complaining, people will stop going there, and it will close down. Big deal. If that happens to Major League Gaming, suddenly we don't have a place to congregate, we don't have an avenue for live competitive play for thousands of dollars six times a year throughout the country. If we don't support MLG despite their short-comings, the game that we watch and play and discuss here every day would take a huge blow to its success and its feasibility for competition and for entertainment.
Edit: LOL LOOK I'M DREWBIE. Just kidding, this is JoshSuth. I'm using drewbie's laptop to export videos, forgot to log out. My bad. =P
So I should support MLG despite any mistakes the make and the complainers are in the wrong solely because MLG is important? I disagree with that notion. Maybe it's the pragmatist in me, maybe the cynic, but I don't think companies should be able to deliver a shoddy product regardless of their position. Hiding under the label of "supporting eSports" doesn't mean they shouldn't receive as much criticism as any other business. Thankfully though, we now have the IPL and NASL, and with competition MLG will be forced to improve their events out of necessity.
The same mindset applies to pretty much every company when you think about it. If Google was unable to maintain a site with accurate results and steady uptime, you can bet people will complain. However, we're lucky Google has stuff competition and thus makes sure their product is the best it can be. With the new western eSports competition we have here, MLG will hopefully do the same.
I hope you understand that you're essentially arguing that we will get better results out of companies by being Grade A Douchebags than by tempering criticisms with constructive commentary. We're all representatives of the esports community, we should conduct ourselves as such.
This:
'I'm dissatisfied with the product you offered because of X, Y and Z. I think you should consider A, B, and C as future options, otherwise you will lose my patronage"
...speaks volumes more than this:
"You're a fucking terrible company. You and your employees are all the sons of whores; the spawn of Satan himself, sucking the tainted cock of mediocrity. "
Nowhere did she state we should blindly support MLG. This is why you're getting comments in the vein of "read the original post".
If you distill OP down, it's basically saying "I think there are too many shitty comments on the internet".
It has nothing to do with negative vs. positive because criticizing truly good negative comments just makes you sound intellectually disadvantaged. Given this redefinition of her argument as provided in the quote, I agree with Anna. I hope you all will forgive me for not delving into the self-help book, yes?
As an employee? of MLG and someone with far greater access to the behind-the-scenes goings-on than most viewers or attendees, what are some realistic suggestions that you believe MLG should adopt to provide a better experience?
I'm at a loss for words for the people that feel the compulsive desire to "go against the grain" and argue that there shouldn't be a precedent for clear and concise communication without complaining, but... whatever.
Anyways, complaints without proposed solutions are worthless. Constructive criticism != Complaining.
Good post, and I agree that we need to put our collective heads together and be a supportive group of people trying to push e-Sports forward in its "evolution."
[e]: I'm not arguing with the OP, I am arguing with the nay-sayers.
On April 05 2011 15:37 hmunkey wrote: Why is complaining looked down at as a bad thing? MLG isn't a charity; it is a for-profit organization. It's goal is to make money off us, the viewers and players, so we are entitled to complain. We're both the consumers of their content and the product for their advertisers.
It really bothers me a lot when people jump up to defend companies. Their role is to satisfy us enough that they can take our money -- something MLG clearly didn't do well at last weekend.
Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations.
Plz read the OP before debating.
As the book puts it “The goal is not to eliminate all complaining. The intent is to eliminate the kind of mindless complaining that doesn’t serve a greater purpose and allow complaining that is justified and worthwhile.” If you think about it, how much better and how much more powerful would we be if every member of our community was committed to offering a solution (or 2) alongside every complaint? “The lag @^#^& sucked and the audio in the venue makes the results invalid” does make known a concern, but how much more useful is “please push Blizzard to come alongside you with solutions like dedicated server or LAN support” and “I think sound-proof booths on the main stage would really improve the experience and, in the long run, save you money.” How much more are you willing to change for someone when they build you up instead of beat you down?
Sorry if you think I didn't read what you had to say, because I truly did and I agreed with parts of it to an extent. That said, I'd still like to direct you towards my final paragraph:
"Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations."
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I meant, so here I go again. Constructive criticism is a great thing; no one will argue with you there. However, MLG is a company. The pressure is on them to make sure they deliver a satisfactory product, not on us. Personally I don't find whining to be worth my time, but if others want to, they're completely entitled to it. MLG asked for money in exchange for a product they didn't deliver. They didn't donate anything out of the kindness of their hearts. The complaining absolutely helps. It tells MLG they messed up. It shows them that their revenue stream is in jeopardy. It forces them to work towards a solution.
If we were talking about the game for charity marathons, I would not be taking the "they're a company, they need to figure it out" standpoint. But we're not, so I am.
I feel like you still don't get it. The post is saying we should complain and air our grievances but in constructive ways. Cynicism and complaining are absolutely NOT crucial for improvement. You can't just say it's crucial and expect us to believe it. Cynicism is the anti-progress. Mindless, cynical complaining only breeds animosity and is usually ignored because it brings nothing positive or constructive to the table. What does help is focused, reasonable, positive, and constructive complaints and suggestions.
I read the original post, haven't read the book it mentions but like all of these things there is probably research out there that says the exact opposite. This isn't the first time MLG has had streaming problems, in fact I don't think I've tuned into one that didn't, and every time the issues get blamed on something out of their controll. Is it really that likely that every convention centre that MLG attends just happens to have network/ISP issues the weekend they are there?
While some people did go to far with their bitching, being all happy smily give everyone a gold star has been done to death with MLG already. I had high hopes that this year things would run smoothly but first time up to the plate and we get the worst event as far as streamed content yet. No complaining rule? Sorry not when the majority of the complaining is completely justified IMO
On April 05 2011 15:37 hmunkey wrote: Why is complaining looked down at as a bad thing? MLG isn't a charity; it is a for-profit organization. It's goal is to make money off us, the viewers and players, so we are entitled to complain. We're both the consumers of their content and the product for their advertisers.
It really bothers me a lot when people jump up to defend companies. Their role is to satisfy us enough that they can take our money -- something MLG clearly didn't do well at last weekend.
Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations.
Plz read the OP before debating.
As the book puts it “The goal is not to eliminate all complaining. The intent is to eliminate the kind of mindless complaining that doesn’t serve a greater purpose and allow complaining that is justified and worthwhile.” If you think about it, how much better and how much more powerful would we be if every member of our community was committed to offering a solution (or 2) alongside every complaint? “The lag @^#^& sucked and the audio in the venue makes the results invalid” does make known a concern, but how much more useful is “please push Blizzard to come alongside you with solutions like dedicated server or LAN support” and “I think sound-proof booths on the main stage would really improve the experience and, in the long run, save you money.” How much more are you willing to change for someone when they build you up instead of beat you down?
Sorry if you think I didn't read what you had to say, because I truly did and I agreed with parts of it to an extent. That said, I'd still like to direct you towards my final paragraph:
"Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations."
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I meant, so here I go again. Constructive criticism is a great thing; no one will argue with you there. However, MLG is a company. The pressure is on them to make sure they deliver a satisfactory product, not on us. Personally I don't find whining to be worth my time, but if others want to, they're completely entitled to it. MLG asked for money in exchange for a product they didn't deliver. They didn't donate anything out of the kindness of their hearts. The complaining absolutely helps. It tells MLG they messed up. It shows them that their revenue stream is in jeopardy. It forces them to work towards a solution.
If we were talking about the game for charity marathons, I would not be taking the "they're a company, they need to figure it out" standpoint. But we're not, so I am.
I feel like you still don't get it. The post is saying we should complain and air our grievances but in constructive ways. Cynicism and complaining are absolutely NOT crucial for improvement. You can't just say it's crucial and expect us to believe it. Cynicism is the anti-progress. Mindless, cynical complaining only breeds animosity and is usually ignored because it brings nothing positive or constructive to the table. What does help is focused, reasonable, positive, and constructive complaints and suggestions.
Great blog post by the way.
I feel like you're missing his point. His point is that it's not our job to help MLG improve. That's what people pay them to do. Cynicism seems to work great in our capitalist system. I mean, if I don't believe they'll do a good job next time, I won't buy from them. Call me a cynic, but it works. In fact, it's exactly this form of cynicism that yields progress.
On April 05 2011 15:37 hmunkey wrote: Why is complaining looked down at as a bad thing? MLG isn't a charity; it is a for-profit organization. It's goal is to make money off us, the viewers and players, so we are entitled to complain. We're both the consumers of their content and the product for their advertisers.
It really bothers me a lot when people jump up to defend companies. Their role is to satisfy us enough that they can take our money -- something MLG clearly didn't do well at last weekend.
Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations.
Plz read the OP before debating.
As the book puts it “The goal is not to eliminate all complaining. The intent is to eliminate the kind of mindless complaining that doesn’t serve a greater purpose and allow complaining that is justified and worthwhile.” If you think about it, how much better and how much more powerful would we be if every member of our community was committed to offering a solution (or 2) alongside every complaint? “The lag @^#^& sucked and the audio in the venue makes the results invalid” does make known a concern, but how much more useful is “please push Blizzard to come alongside you with solutions like dedicated server or LAN support” and “I think sound-proof booths on the main stage would really improve the experience and, in the long run, save you money.” How much more are you willing to change for someone when they build you up instead of beat you down?
Sorry if you think I didn't read what you had to say, because I truly did and I agreed with parts of it to an extent. That said, I'd still like to direct you towards my final paragraph:
"Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations."
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I meant, so here I go again. Constructive criticism is a great thing; no one will argue with you there. However, MLG is a company. The pressure is on them to make sure they deliver a satisfactory product, not on us. Personally I don't find whining to be worth my time, but if others want to, they're completely entitled to it. MLG asked for money in exchange for a product they didn't deliver. They didn't donate anything out of the kindness of their hearts. The complaining absolutely helps. It tells MLG they messed up. It shows them that their revenue stream is in jeopardy. It forces them to work towards a solution.
If we were talking about the game for charity marathons, I would not be taking the "they're a company, they need to figure it out" standpoint. But we're not, so I am.
I feel like you still don't get it. The post is saying we should complain and air our grievances but in constructive ways. Cynicism and complaining are absolutely NOT crucial for improvement. You can't just say it's crucial and expect us to believe it. Cynicism is the anti-progress. Mindless, cynical complaining only breeds animosity and is usually ignored because it brings nothing positive or constructive to the table. What does help is focused, reasonable, positive, and constructive complaints and suggestions.
Great blog post by the way.
I am going to go ahead and play devil's advocate..... how many times have people said players hearing commentators is a huge problem? And not just random idiots flaming on the forums, prominent players have come out and said this is a very big issue, there's an interview from this very MLG where IdrA says he heard the commentator's say his opponent was going for Void Rays off 1 base, he takes that information, and gets a free win. Makes it very difficult to take the tournament seriously as a whole, how can people not be cynical about this kind of thing? If I'm the player who has my build exposed, I think I'm going to be pretty damn cynical about it, unfortunately the attitude seems to be "deal with it."
On April 05 2011 16:25 pieman819 wrote: While some people did go to far with their bitching, being all happy smily give everyone a gold star has been done to death with MLG already. I had high hopes that this year things would run smoothly but first time up to the plate and we get the worst event as far as streamed content yet. No complaining rule? Sorry not when the majority of the complaining is completely justified IMO
Another person who should read the entire post before responding. Nobody advocated giving MLG a blank check of approval, a gold star, or "happy smiley" reponses. We're advocating mature, intelligent, constructive discourse here. Nothing more, nothing less.
On April 05 2011 15:44 drewbie.root wrote: hmunkey, you can't view MLG as just another business. If the Radio Shack in your town keeps messing up despite constant complaining, people will stop going there, and it will close down. Big deal. If that happens to Major League Gaming, suddenly we don't have a place to congregate, we don't have an avenue for live competitive play for thousands of dollars six times a year throughout the country. If we don't support MLG despite their short-comings, the game that we watch and play and discuss here every day would take a huge blow to its success and its feasibility for competition and for entertainment.
Edit: LOL LOOK I'M DREWBIE. Just kidding, this is JoshSuth. I'm using drewbie's laptop to export videos, forgot to log out. My bad. =P
So I should support MLG despite any mistakes the make and the complainers are in the wrong solely because MLG is important? I disagree with that notion. Maybe it's the pragmatist in me, maybe the cynic, but I don't think companies should be able to deliver a shoddy product regardless of their position. Hiding under the label of "supporting eSports" doesn't mean they shouldn't receive as much criticism as any other business. Thankfully though, we now have the IPL and NASL, and with competition MLG will be forced to improve their events out of necessity.
The same mindset applies to pretty much every company when you think about it. If Google was unable to maintain a site with accurate results and steady uptime, you can bet people will complain. However, we're lucky Google has stuff competition and thus makes sure their product is the best it can be. With the new western eSports competition we have here, MLG will hopefully do the same.
I hope you understand that you're essentially arguing that we will get better results out of companies by being Grade A Douchebags than by tempering criticisms with constructive commentary. We're all representatives of the esports community, we should conduct ourselves as such.
'I'm dissatisfied with the product you offered because of X, Y and Z. I think you should consider A, B, and C as future options, otherwise you will lose my patronage"
"You're a fucking terrible company. You and your employees are all the sons of whores; the spawn of Satan himself, sucking the tainted cock of mediocrity. "
Nowhere did she state we should blindly support MLG. This is why you're getting comments in the vein of "read the original post".
Hope that clears things up a bit.
He's not arguing that at all? Anyone can agree with the statement "Hey guys lets be constructive" over "Hey guys let's complain and not be constructive." hmunkey is just offering the other side of the coin, should we still be "positive" to companies that don't deliver? I don't think it's fair to the community to be let down over and over again and and be told "Well just be more constructive, it's good for eSports."
I'm sure MLG is sincere in their endeavors, but actions speak louder than words. It's unfortunate that they need to work extra hard to accommodate for the shortcomings of a venue, but I think the weekend's experience shouldn't go unscathed.
On April 05 2011 16:25 pieman819 wrote: I read the original post, haven't read the book it mentions but like all of these things there is probably research out there that says the exact opposite. This isn't the first time MLG has had streaming problems, in fact I don't think I've tuned into one that didn't, and every time the issues get blamed on something out of their controll. Is it really that likely that every convention centre that MLG attends just happens to have network/ISP issues the weekend they are there?
While some people did go to far with their bitching, being all happy smily give everyone a gold star has been done to death with MLG already. I had high hopes that this year things would run smoothly but first time up to the plate and we get the worst event as far as streamed content yet. No complaining rule? Sorry not when the majority of the complaining is completely justified IMO
positive reinforcement is better then mostly negative reactions.
MLG doesn't need us to tell them 'You f**ked up', they know, they apologized, they promised to do their best to fix the problem.
Sure it took them 2 and a half days to show more then 5 games but there is 100% a silver lining to this, Sundance said that they received more then twice the viewers they expected, which means 2 things:
1) Esports is clearly on the rise and MLG now recognizes not only the effort they will have to put in to broadcasting to the masses but also how big of an opportunity this is for them, imagine telling your sponsors 'within 5 months our viewer base has more then doubled'
2) Something like this had to happen eventually, and now that it has happened all of the other major productions and live streams of competitive gaming will have an example to take to not only learn from but use as a reference in the future.
NASL and IGN will obviously have learned from this and will without a doubt be prepared for any number of viewers tuning in.
On April 05 2011 16:25 pieman819 wrote: While some people did go to far with their bitching, being all happy smily give everyone a gold star has been done to death with MLG already. I had high hopes that this year things would run smoothly but first time up to the plate and we get the worst event as far as streamed content yet. No complaining rule? Sorry not when the majority of the complaining is completely justified IMO
Another person who should read the entire post before responding. Nobody advocated giving MLG a blank check of approval, a gold star, or "happy smiley" reponses. We're advocating mature, intelligent, constructive discourse here. Nothing more, nothing less.
I don't understand the blanket premise that complaints aren't constructive, mature, or intelligent. I mean, I see things thrown around like, be mature, be concise, don't whine. Well, aren't we throwing a negative stigma out there on something that... isn't so bad? Complaining can be very intelligent if articulated correctly. Read some of Lalush's OPs from beta and stuff, and they're always well thought-out complaints. I also see professionals in my field complain about theories and technicalities of other's, but it's always in an intelligent manner too. Is it wrong to point out a mistake without offering the answer? I'd say not. Maybe you want the other person (or entity in this case) to figure out the answer themselves. After all, I'm quite lazy
On April 05 2011 15:37 hmunkey wrote: Why is complaining looked down at as a bad thing? MLG isn't a charity; it is a for-profit organization. It's goal is to make money off us, the viewers and players, so we are entitled to complain. We're both the consumers of their content and the product for their advertisers.
It really bothers me a lot when people jump up to defend companies. Their role is to satisfy us enough that they can take our money -- something MLG clearly didn't do well at last weekend.
Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations.
Plz read the OP before debating.
As the book puts it “The goal is not to eliminate all complaining. The intent is to eliminate the kind of mindless complaining that doesn’t serve a greater purpose and allow complaining that is justified and worthwhile.” If you think about it, how much better and how much more powerful would we be if every member of our community was committed to offering a solution (or 2) alongside every complaint? “The lag @^#^& sucked and the audio in the venue makes the results invalid” does make known a concern, but how much more useful is “please push Blizzard to come alongside you with solutions like dedicated server or LAN support” and “I think sound-proof booths on the main stage would really improve the experience and, in the long run, save you money.” How much more are you willing to change for someone when they build you up instead of beat you down?
Sorry if you think I didn't read what you had to say, because I truly did and I agreed with parts of it to an extent. That said, I'd still like to direct you towards my final paragraph:
"Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations."
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I meant, so here I go again. Constructive criticism is a great thing; no one will argue with you there. However, MLG is a company. The pressure is on them to make sure they deliver a satisfactory product, not on us. Personally I don't find whining to be worth my time, but if others want to, they're completely entitled to it. MLG asked for money in exchange for a product they didn't deliver. They didn't donate anything out of the kindness of their hearts. The complaining absolutely helps. It tells MLG they messed up. It shows them that their revenue stream is in jeopardy. It forces them to work towards a solution.
If we were talking about the game for charity marathons, I would not be taking the "they're a company, they need to figure it out" standpoint. But we're not, so I am.
I feel like you still don't get it. The post is saying we should complain and air our grievances but in constructive ways. Cynicism and complaining are absolutely NOT crucial for improvement. You can't just say it's crucial and expect us to believe it. Cynicism is the anti-progress. Mindless, cynical complaining only breeds animosity and is usually ignored because it brings nothing positive or constructive to the table. What does help is focused, reasonable, positive, and constructive complaints and suggestions.
Great blog post by the way.
I feel like you're missing his point. His point is that it's not our job to help MLG improve. That's what people pay them to do. Cynicism seems to work great in our capitalist system. I mean, if I don't believe they'll do a good job next time, I won't buy from them. Call me a cynic, but it works. In fact, it's exactly this form of cynicism that yields progress.
It's not about whether or not the complaining is justified, it's about what will get better results so we can all enjoy a better MLG, and that is undoubtedly constructive criticism. Yes there were huge huge failures, and yes that really makes people want to vent and troll, and yes that might be a valid choice, but it doesn't help things get better. You get what I'm saying? I also get the urge to be mean and cynical, but I really want to see improvement in the next MLG, and that will definitely be more likely with some constructive, reasonable criticism. Good smart complaints = more chance to be heard and more chance for improvement = a hopefully better MLG.
On April 05 2011 15:44 drewbie.root wrote: hmunkey, you can't view MLG as just another business. If the Radio Shack in your town keeps messing up despite constant complaining, people will stop going there, and it will close down. Big deal. If that happens to Major League Gaming, suddenly we don't have a place to congregate, we don't have an avenue for live competitive play for thousands of dollars six times a year throughout the country. If we don't support MLG despite their short-comings, the game that we watch and play and discuss here every day would take a huge blow to its success and its feasibility for competition and for entertainment.
Edit: LOL LOOK I'M DREWBIE. Just kidding, this is JoshSuth. I'm using drewbie's laptop to export videos, forgot to log out. My bad. =P
So I should support MLG despite any mistakes the make and the complainers are in the wrong solely because MLG is important? I disagree with that notion. Maybe it's the pragmatist in me, maybe the cynic, but I don't think companies should be able to deliver a shoddy product regardless of their position. Hiding under the label of "supporting eSports" doesn't mean they shouldn't receive as much criticism as any other business. Thankfully though, we now have the IPL and NASL, and with competition MLG will be forced to improve their events out of necessity.
The same mindset applies to pretty much every company when you think about it. If Google was unable to maintain a site with accurate results and steady uptime, you can bet people will complain. However, we're lucky Google has stuff competition and thus makes sure their product is the best it can be. With the new western eSports competition we have here, MLG will hopefully do the same.
I hope you understand that you're essentially arguing that we will get better results out of companies by being Grade A Douchebags than by tempering criticisms with constructive commentary. We're all representatives of the esports community, we should conduct ourselves as such.
This:
'I'm dissatisfied with the product you offered because of X, Y and Z. I think you should consider A, B, and C as future options, otherwise you will lose my patronage"
...speaks volumes more than this:
"You're a fucking terrible company. You and your employees are all the sons of whores; the spawn of Satan himself, sucking the tainted cock of mediocrity. "
Nowhere did she state we should blindly support MLG. This is why you're getting comments in the vein of "read the original post".
Hope that clears things up a bit.
He's not arguing that at all? Anyone can agree with the statement "Hey guys lets be constructive" over "Hey guys let's complain and not be constructive." hmunkey is just offering the other side of the coin, should we still be "positive" to companies that don't deliver? I don't think it's fair to the community to be let down over and over again and and be told "Well just be more constructive, it's good for eSports."
So what is your alternative then? To not be constructive? To not be a mature adult and simply take your money elsewhere?
I think people are defining "constructive" as "the absence of criticism", which isnt the case at all. Criticize, break it down, point it out, by all means and in all ways. But do it with an eye to the future and with a spirit of progress.
What good does it do to complain in this manner? What good are you offering to the world by tearing this event apart, even if it wasn't the smoothest? Constructive criticism at least gives something to the MLG folk who are trying their darndest to tame this wild beast we call E-sports. Excellent post Anna, and to all the previous posters who support the constructive criticism, hip hip hurray!
this blog rings like motivational text taken straight from a book, that can be applied to any controversial situation between a company and its customers. i find this a bit insulting to my intelligence actually.
i would much rather you would have taken a more personal, less 'anna proser: professional', approach to the subject. as is, however well written and correct in its main point, this blog seems really hollow to me.
i guess people sense this instinctively or they simply don't agree (and in all fairness there's several arguments to disagree with the postivistic philosophy), hence all the negative replies to this thread.
on the topic though, the community should give less shit to organizers, and organizers of large tournaments seriously need to start respecting the community and treating them and the events with professionalism, unlike they have done so far.
to put it in simple terms, i don't care at all if the ceo of this or that company is a fellow gamer and he posts on teamliquid answering my questions directly in a friendly fashion, if their tournament formats and broadcasts fail horribly. i'll take the stuck-up business asshole that delivers on the content consistently and gives the players proper conditions to grow as professionals - and you can keep the gamer dudes for pr.
also, people need to hold out on their anger and tone down their expectations for esports growth at this point for a bit, rushing things only fucks it up, and there's many steps to go through before we can have events like this mlg was supposed to have been had it lived up to the hype the idealistic community envisioned.
What positve reinforcement can we give though? Sure was a shame having stream problems for the 6th event in a row, shucks, I sure hope you can not have problems next time. Keep your chin up!
Gee players being able to hear the crowd and casters is surely a bad thing that has been brought up alot, not sure how you could have seen that coming! maybe next time you can have something in place to stop that happening!
next time next time next time
But hey at least there was alot of seats for people to sit in and not watch games on for hours on end.
I read and understood the OP perfectly fine. I just don't see any reason to go positive on MLG at all after this disaster. If you ask me, they didn't even try, else the 1 hour break on day 3 can not be explained.
Let's look at this last MLG: The SC2-"Area" was way bigger. Thats nice and shows that they try to improve... Sadly, most of the vieweres don't care about this because the live visitors are only a tiny fraction of the actual viewers. Having no commentary for the live viewers is a huge bummer and a step back from last year, it takes away from the "event" feeling that this should bring to the people. I wonder why IEM, Dreamhack and other "big" events could do this "decently" on their first try and MLG, on their 4th, still can't... These 3 companies all had experience with other E-Sport events before SC2 hit and before they decided to bring SC2 in, yet only one of the 3 did terrible (ok, MLG had probably no RTS experience, but just watching how the others do it, would have helped them a ton).
The experience for online viewers (in others words the Majority). Day 1+2 = basically none/waiting. Day 3 = starts with delay but at least there is a stream and we see some games... Suddenly there is a 1 Hour(+) break in casting while games like Inctonrol vs TLO, Idra vs TLO, Socke vs Kiwikaki and probably some more were running. Even the casters are reading various Twitters and seem to have no clue what actually is going on at the actual event (which for sure isn't the casters fault).
I seriously don't feel like critisizing MLG positively or negatively for that... I feel like someone should take their 52 Million budget and actually do something decent with it. If an event choses or is not able to show games, even when the stream is finally running, after 2 days of HUGE problems with said stream, then this event is a failure and should die. I don't see at all why i should have a positive attitude towards MLG just because it is "E-SPORTS", if E-Sports is what MLG has shown the past weekend, E-Sports should not be supported because it's clearly less entertaining then "Dart"....
Or advice? Go back to the MLG Finals 2010. Improve from there, forget everything you did that last weekend and hope everyone else will also o so.
I love how everyone is treating this issue like its black and white. You can either be WITH eSports or AGAINST it! NO Inbetween!
People are complaining in constructive ways, but there are people treating the criticism like an attack on eSports in general, when in fact people are just trying to protect their own investment. Last year, MLG let us down, which was understandable for introducing a game half way through their season. Months later, and we are let down again. It wasn't all their fault, but they made promises and didn't deliver. I had the stream on a second monitor all weekend and caught a dozen or so games casted, many from replays. I give mad props to Day9, DJwheat, and JP for handling it so well, and MLG had an understandably difficult time at the venue, but a product is a product, and I'm a consumer. If you don't deliver the service you promise, I'm demanding better service or I'm not supporting you anymore, it's as simple as that. Survival of the fittest and the Free Market and all that.
If MLG abandons Starcraft 2 because of all the problems, so be it. The game is so amazing that MLG would have to fuck up, without improvement, for every single event this year in order for that to happen. The scene is growing and people can't get enough eSports. If a tournament fails, it's because it deserves it, to be honest.
Everyone seems to want to talk about positivity: You know what would be amazing for eSports? If MLG got their shit together and delivered a great experience, with the video resolution they promised without requiring me to use my own upload for their streaming service (Octoshape) and there wasn't 45 minutes of downtown while games were being played. MLG can look at other tournaments and see what they do well, apply it to their own model, and come out with something incredible for the growth of eSports. Instead, they've improved the live event while letting down the people at home. I want you to succeed SO BAD MLG, I really do, but you aren't giving me what I want.
A question to myself: Did the massive outcry from SC communities after the catastrophe that was MLG Dallas put fear into the hearts of the organizers of MLG?
The answer to that is: Damn right it put fear into their hearts.
You know what fear does? It motivates people. If a thousand people instantly begin complaining, then they know they've done something majorly wrong, and they will work their damnedest to improve on their mistakes, BECAUSE they're afraid of failing even greater. That is a good thing. Collectively, unconstructive criticism is a good thing because it makes those in charge want to avoid it. Like the old saying goes, "lighting fire under their asses".
And you can't cook without fire. We provide that fire. Sure fire can burn you if you keep your ass on top of it, but it motivates those on top to get the hell off and finish cooking their meal so we all can eat.
pieman819: I think you're completely missing the point. What did your whining just accomplish? What will it EVER accomplish? Even with your sarcastic-asshole comments about the MLG experience - you are contributing nothing, helping nothing, and in fact, causing nothing more than resentment. Lose the sense of entitlement.
Having worked in the corporate setting for a while now, I can attest to the fact that there is nothing that will absolutely kill productivity more than negative attitudes/complaining (Note: Complaining does NOT mean that you can't bring up something that isn't working). Anna was simply pointing out that there are better ways to view these types of situations, and I agree 100%.
Your comments do little more than to perpetuate negative stereotypes that gamers lack maturity. Oh, and I know you probably don't care. That just makes her point even MORE valid. -_-
Uh... Okay. E-sports to me is just like a story I know called "The Puppy Who Lost His Way." The world was changing, and the puppy was getting... bigger.
So, you see, the puppy was like MLG. In that, they were both lost in the woods. And nobody, especially the little boy - "society" - knew where to find 'em. Except that the puppy was a dog. But the E-sports, my friends, that was a revolution.
Yea, negative attitudes and complaining can kill a workplace, if it's being done by the workers, not by the customers.
If the customers are collectively angry / complaining it's NOT going to kill productivity. You think MLG is seeing all this negativity / whining / bitching and are crawling up in a corner going "Aww QQ the internet is being mean to us." No, they're going to (hopefully) get their shit together in time for next MLG. Collective complaining isn't a bad thing when you're considering the context. The customers got a shit product and we have every right to complain. If all this complaining stifles the product MLG puts out because they're upset their customers are mad then they're probably not cut out to run a multi-million dollar business, sorry.
And how are anyone's comments in here perpetuating the negativity that surrounds gamer stereotypes? Shit like this happens in ALL BUSINESSES THAT INVOLVE CUSTOMERS AND A PAID PRODUCT. If someone consistently puts out a shit product, then people are going to complain about it if it's something they really want, and eventually if the company doesn't get their shit together the customer's just going to leave and find it somewhere else. This isn't just gamers being immature or some stupid stereotype, it's the CUSTOMERS getting a BAD PRODUCT and telling the company that it's unacceptable.
Constructive Feedback ^^: One of the main-problems that come to my mind while thinking about the MLG this weekend is that there only was one game that the casters did wait for at a time like only one game is planned for the main-stage so they can only cast this and nothing else (from the sid-stages or w/e its called).
As the technical difficulties occured for this main-stage-game the casters had no fallback-game to cast. The reason for that is entirely unknown to me as we live in a "connected" world and at least technically it should be possible to access any game from where the casters where.
I would suggest to find ways to at least have one fallback game if the mainstage has problems. Sure, you don't know if the main-stage-problem will be resolved fast and you surely don't want to miss the top-match..
What really would be great would be a technology like HLTV for Starcraft 2. That you can attend any running game if there are free slots available if one knows the match-ID.
Reading about Gottman always reminds me of his research involving meta emotion structures between parents and children. I think it actually applies a lot in the same way with what you're talking about here in some respects. That is if you consider the community like the parent and any organization to be a kid. You can't be dismissing with them and tell them not to cry (never have anything wrong with their events). You gotta let em know it's okay to fuck things up because everyone does it, and then tell them how to improve. Where his whole meta emotions comes into play for this thing is literally how people convey their emotions about emotions. So if you're pissed about MLG having issues, it's perfectly fine to BE pissed in your tone when providing feedback, as long as you're constructive and your comments are useful.
We gotta emotionally coach these MLG people so they can positively interact with peers in the future! Not just disregard their concerns and tell them not to be so shitty next time. I really wish advice like this blog would ring through to entire communities so they'd stop with their pointless rage.
We've tried feedback positively. Every MLG has been pretty bad in terms of stream delays, quality, octoshape, rules such as extended series, sound-proofing issues, etc. There has been backlash but no where near all the negativity as MLG has seen with this one. Everyone seems to think this is the first time the SC2 community has had problems with the product we're getting from MLG, unfortunately it isn't.
Sometimes constantly telling your kid "everyone makes mistakes, its ok" doesn't work and you need to resort to something like "son you need to stop this or I'm going to beat the shit out of you with this belt".
On April 05 2011 17:23 EvilTeletubby wrote: pieman819: I think you're completely missing the point. What did your whining just accomplish? What will it EVER accomplish? Even with your sarcastic-asshole comments about the MLG experience - you are contributing nothing, helping nothing, and in fact, causing nothing more than resentment. Lose the sense of entitlement.
Having worked in the corporate setting for a while now, I can attest to the fact that there is nothing that will absolutely kill productivity more than negative attitudes/complaining (Note: Complaining does NOT mean that you can't bring up something that isn't working). Anna was simply pointing out that there are better ways to view these types of situations, and I agree 100%.
Your comments do little more than to perpetuate negative stereotypes that gamers lack maturity. Oh, and I know you probably don't care. That just makes her point even MORE valid. -_-
Anyways, <3 Anna.
I wouldn't say anything if i didn't care, say I lack maturity all you want but ad hominems are not they way to show your own. What did your post now accomplish? what will it EVER accomplish?
Can you give me an example of one single piece of constructive criticism that can be given from this weekends fiasco that hasn't already been mentioned at every other MLG that has had starcraft 2 as part of it's scedule? Everything has already been said and acknowledged by MLG whether they take on the advice or not (seating vs extended series are examples of them changing and sticking to their guns respectively).
Sense of entitilment is another buzz phrase thrown out so much these days that it has lost all of it's meaning. Where in my post did I even make any mention of anything related to feeling entitled to anything?
On April 05 2011 15:43 shindigs wrote: I'm trying to agree with this post, but I can't.
This is written like we're putting all our eSports eggs into MLG's basket. Last weekend for MLG, I just stopped watching the stream and didn't even bother trying to load it up and instead just deferred to TL's twitter. I'm getting a vibe that if I don't support a poorly run event, I'm not supporting eSports, which I don't understand. It's the Internet, and there will ALWAYS be unnecessary negativity, but saying that people are being too negative because they're being fairly critical isn't much better. I don't see how it's hard to sort out the good complaints from the bad ones.
I'll support eSports by supporting companies and events that are well run so that eSports is under good hands. I know MLG may have just fallen under unlucky times, but in the end they're going to have to find a streaming model that works because I'm not a fan of just hyping up a company just because they're under the mantra of "growing eSports".
I agree with Anna's post as well, however I too have to agree with this post completely.
MLG has been given the opportunity to help promote eSports, but the reason that people are "needlessly bashing" or criticizing or whatever excuse they want to come up with is b/c they have failed miserably after a full year of "trying."
Last year people were "screaming" for sound-proof booths for the players, they were even asked about it more than a month ago on State of the Game's interview with MLG's Sundance. They ignored the cries from the people *paying them money.*
In fact, that interview came off as Sundance just telling us to give him money. Have an issue? Buy his shirts. Want to support the players? Buy the shirts. Everything came down to us supporting *him* and giving him more and more money. And that's after we find out what a crappy payout the prize pool is for such a "huge tournament."
The reason why people are being "negative" isn't due to them being trolls or just trying to blow off steam, it's b/c they care about the product that is put out in front of them. During MLG Dallas, there were issues from before the tournament started until it ended. It's not like MLG wasn't aware of the amount of people who wanted to view the stream, who paid for it, or even attended the event. Yet, it came off as MLG being completely unprepared, or worse, completely trying to scrape by w/giving the customers the least they possibly could get away with. It started w/the terrible stream quality and consistency all the way down to game lag and other such issues.
Now don't get me wrong Anna (and MLG), but you cannot completely blame the lag issues on Blizzard. I kept seeing you send out tweet after tweet asking us to hound Blizzard into bringing out dedicated servers to LAN tournaments or adding LAN support. Yet, how are we supposed to believe it was in ANY way Blizzard's fault when MLG themselves couldn't even get the games to us in the first place? Or when we continually saw other eSports lag or crash?
Don't get me wrong, I agree that Blizzard give LAN support or help the companies out that are growing Blizzard's product w/dedicated tournament servers. Yet, I cannot say definitively that any of the lag issues, drop issues, or otherwise were at all Blizzard's fault. Sure, I get the surrender screen when I play on a stable connection. Yes, it happens at other tournaments too - such as GSL. However, how many people dropped during one weekend at MLG when GSL hardly ever has their players drop from live games? Worse, how many players were dropping as a direct result of the terrible internet connection that MLG was using to host these games and stream them to us?
Anna, neither you nor MLG would be getting as much "negativity" from "us" if this were the first time it has happened at MLG. Yet all the events last year had the exact same issues. How can MLG with a straight face tell us we're being negative or even that they're "sorry" when this has happened time and time again? That's just plain silly. Sounds like a ridiculous statement that children use with their parents. Not because the child is truly sorry, but because the child got caught yet AGAIN.
This post probably seems to you like I'm just being negative, but how can there be a positive outlook on this MLG event (or ones coming in the future) when this has been a recurring issue with MLG's management at said events with absolutely nothing being done to rectify the problems after more than a year?
Oh, here is something constructive. Which will be utterly pointless because the MLG does not want or is just not capable to deliver a decent event. They had chances after chances and just fail compared to every other BIG event. There was no perfect event yet, but MLG is whiteout a doubt the worst...
Critism/advise 1: Get a stable stream. As it seems, everyone can do this, except MLG. Even some Eagle.
2: You show way to less games. Use that stream to show as many games as possible, put referees/observers in games that the casters can switch to immediatly or have 2-3 "casting" teams do that... MANY casters would be more than happy to cast for free, there is no excuse for not having this. There should be no need for players to play from the "main stage" or anything to get them on the stream.
3. Record interviews between games with "famous" players or guys that did better than expected. The after game interviews were bad and brought next to nothing to the event. Have players join the casters from time to time for interviews or even let them cast a game together. You got all the players there, "USE THEM".
4. Either get soundproof boots or let the players play in another room, having no commentary for the live audience is terrible, having players hear the commentators is loltastic.
5. Reduce "downtime".. Show something, allways... Anything... Just show something... Interviews, Games, Replays, Eagles, Music Vidoes, Porn..... SHOW SOMETHING. A screen which sais "stream will resume momentarely" should not be on air E V E R. It's like a huge "WE FAILED TO DELIVER CONTENT" sign.
6. Get a Tournament format people can understand that does not give people that allready did good once such a huge advantage. Your format right now makes sense and is fair, aside from the huge advantage of starting in the groupes. But it's horribly complicated and hard to follow... KEEP IT EASY. Qualfications (whatever you want, even double elimination) --> Groupes (Seed here) --> RO 16/32 tournament (Single elimination). It's simple and the final feels like a final.. There is a reason the other "BIG" events are run like that. Double Elimination is not and never will be a good format if you want to have an exciting final (which you should want), extended series is an abomination.
7. Advertisements?... I had 1 over the whole weekend (some gum)... How do you make money? O_o. It would probably be wise to get some region specific sponsors... Dr. Pepper is fine, but non existant where i live... And if i would see that Brand X is sponsoring E-Sports Brand Y with a similar product would likely lose a customer .
Now can anyone tell me, which of these points, is not O B V I O U S to everyone that thinks about this for 5-10 minutes? Well, MLG seems to not "see" this and thats why i'm pissed and thats why i wouldn't care less if the event just dies.
On April 05 2011 15:37 hmunkey wrote: Why is complaining looked down at as a bad thing? MLG isn't a charity; it is a for-profit organization. It's goal is to make money off us, the viewers and players, so we are entitled to complain. We're both the consumers of their content and the product for their advertisers.
It really bothers me a lot when people jump up to defend companies. Their role is to satisfy us enough that they can take our money -- something MLG clearly didn't do well at last weekend.
Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations.
And said organization's Sundance has told us "if you want it fixed, BUY more stuff from me!" What kind of statement is that? It's like they're telling us 'hey man, we know our product sucks, we know that we're not meeting the needs of the consumer, but if you just keep throwing money at us, we promise that in the future we'll meet them."
On April 05 2011 15:42 JSkates wrote: Well said and I agree. Personally heard back from some MLG people on twitter just because I was staying positive. It's VERY obvious MLG (and Sundance, their CEO) really care about SC2. People need to do their best to support MLG, not bash them for trying to give us something better. Sure, Dallas was, overall, a poor experience for anyone who wasn't there in person but MLG has made it clear they are not happy with that.
Like I said on twitter: MLG learned from Dallas and it will only get better.
Might not even be perfect in Columbus but by the time the 2011 season is over they will have this stuff mastered and bring us a really good show worthy of purchasing the HD pass for.
Really? Do you honestly believe this?
If so, why then has MLG not learned after over a full year now? This wasn't their first starcraft 2 experience. There were 3 last year, EACH of which had these exact same issues. Have they gotten better? No! In fact, they've only gotten worse. The problems have not only gotten more severe, but the amount of people with which they have affected have grown immensely.
It's hard not to "bash" MLG when they're product is continually getting worse while they make money off of us, the consumers.
On April 05 2011 15:44 Kennigit wrote: The problem (and point) is that complainers rarely bring anything new to the table or suggestions for change.
Great blog!
What suggestions could we make that we already have made?
I'm being serious. We're not the "experts" on how to run a company, how to stream live games, how to provide the necessary resources for eSports "athletes" (lololol :D ) to succeed. We, as consumers, are simply here to buy a product and enjoy it; whether we "purchase" the product monetarily or "consume" the product via advertisements.
If people didn't care, didn't want to see Starcraft 2 succeed, would we be complaining? We can't bring suggestions for change any other way as consumers except via "complaining" to try to get what is going wrong changed.
If we as consumers could do so, trust me, we wouldn't be the consumers, we'd be the company going out there to make money and promote Starcraft... just like NASL has done. And hopefully for their sake, they have listened to our criticisms to improve their wonderful product.
This would be applicable if teamliquid was a work group
this is fan / anonymous feedback
MLG event was a disaster and 90% of people that tried to watch it have negative feelings towards mlg after the debacle obviously. There is no way in hell you can expect 75% positivity afterward. IMO I want MLG to either not suck terribly or just disappear, I have no vested interest in them making money running crap shows.
While I agree with most of what the OP says I somewhat disagree with the “No Complaining Rule”. I am not saying that people should be complaing and criticising non stop with no reason. To grow Esports (as what many paople would like to call it), people need to be more PROACTIVE and being proactive with everything they do and that includes valid criticisms and complaints.
I am not saying people should start just complaining and insulting with no direction. People can be proactive with their complaints without being insulting and whining. When I say be poactive with complaints, it can be done like what the OP said and that is providing constructive feedback/criticism but it can be also done by voicing the complaint/criticism to the people that matters. For example if you do not like that MLGs stream because it is laggy or the quality is poor, you voice those opinions/complaints to MLG in an orderly fashion. If 1 million people voice this complaint (even if the criticism is not constructive) to MLG, not only does it tell MLG that there is a wide audience interested in epsorts but it also tells them what they are doing wrong. If they know there are many people interested in a product and are unsatisfied with it, they will be willing fix the probelm because it is in their interest to fix the problem.
Again, I have to emphasise that you have to be procactive and do it in an orderly fashion. A million people voicing their complaints on TL or Reddit will do no actual good if the people that matters do not know about it.
I will also make an another example. Alot of people complain that playing on battlenet is very laggy and problematic for competitive starcraft. Assume we dont know a solution to this problem (we know having lan ability could solve most of this probelms), complaining on TL and making youtube videos complaining will not necessarily make the people that matters know about it. What will help is a miillion people writing to MLG, GOM and any other big tournament partners of Blizzard as well as Blizzard themselves telling them of this problrm and complaining to them about it. Of course if you offer them constructive criticsm it will might help them solve this problem. But it is more important that a LARGE number of people to tell BLizzard that it is a probelm and it needs to be fixed. By complaing to Blizzards partners such as GOM or MLG, those partners are more likely to tell Blizzard og the problems. You might say those issues has nothing to do with GOM and MLG and that it is unfair to complain to them about it but if many people complain, it is more like they bring it to the attention of Blizzard and partners of Blizzard can be more persuasive. Even if there are not obvious solutions, if it is in a company's interest to try to fix problems, they will spend resources on finding a solution.
So what I am saying is 'to grow esports' do not take a backseat but be proactive with everything you do. You dont need to spend money on streams (although it helps), just by participating you will help epsorts, by watching a free stream, it is possible to show sponsors the interest and the exposure they can get. Also you cant be quite and not be making valid complaints because those problems will only be fixed if it is made known to the people that matters. It needs to be made known to tournaments, the more people who complain to a tournament the more likely the problem will be fixed. If the community is really big and passionate, starcraft and esports will prosper even if companies like MLG and GOM fail, if there is enough interest, support and viewership, there will always be tournaments. So people need to be more PROACTIVE with everything they do if they truly want esports to grow.
On April 05 2011 18:33 Sega92 wrote: very well put!
I think if the community listens to this and keeps this in mind the quality of everything we see will improve by a wide margin
great post!!
First MLG: People were super excited, there were stream problems and stuff but it didn't matter much, it was BIG!!!
Second MLG: People were super excited, there were stream problems and basically the same Problems as in MLG1... People asked themselves why but still, it was BIG!!!
Thrid MLG (finals): People were super excited, there were still stream problems and stuff but the overall production (in my memorie) seemed to have been better... People still complained rightfully for better streams and wanted to see more games. But it was BIG!!!
Fourth MLG: Total Stream-Meltdown for 2 days, HQ died to never live again, barely any games were shown even when the stream was on, there was basically no coverage aside from the few games.... People started a shitstorm and you can't blame them for this. It was a Disaster.
Now ask yourself... Except for the amount of Chairs for the audience... What did improve over the 4 (!) MLG's?...
Either MLG gets better fast or some other company will grab North American SC2 . As it is now, no one will miss MLG...
I would urge the naysayers responding to this post to reconsider its function. The OP isn't necessarily giving us a "don't worry, be happy" routine. It is suggesting a TACTIC of persuasion for getting tournaments like MLG to accommodate us. If you honestly believe that purely negative feedback with no constructive criticism is the absolute best way to affect the outcome you want, that's fine. But even from a completely self-interested point of view, I believe the community could benefit greatly from working more WITH companies that put on tournaments, and not AGAINST them. It has nothing to do with charity, it is all about having your message received well!!
I think people are blowing this way out of proportion. If MLG has done anything wrong, it's completely underestimate how fast this game is growing.
If you think about it, the production wasn't good because the internet at the event wasn't up to snuff. Other than that, they could've been more organized and focused on bringing the content to the stream. Definitely hire more casters and have multiple streams showing different games. I didn't have a problem with the stream quality. It could've been better, but I'm used to watching GSL on low quality lol. It really sucked that they streamed like 12 sets over the weekend and the downtime while the stream was up was also not good.
So all in all, other than stream stability, more streams, more content, more organization.
I do agree with Anna's point of view. It's okay to express anger, but if you really want MLG to improve, you should offer a way to make it better. Blind hate only creates more blind hate.
Some people in this thread (besides those that are just somewhat ignorant and miss they point completely) seem to be stuck in this mindset that just because it's a company that makes money out of everyone they want to deliver to, you are entitled to kick and scream. Let's say you are, should you still do it? This is, how I see it, the main issue. I personally felt extremly bitter during the weekend and was at times lost for words about what I truly felt was a complete failure, but it's just so true that regardless of how entitled I am to kicking and screaming nothing will come out of it and beeing constructive about it atleast gives the chance to have an improved situation later on.
Why pick the option that will provide you with lesser chance of success of something that you actually like? It's not in anyones interest in failure so why, just because it's their responsibility, should we as a community not try to help while we kick and scream?
People do not complain because of the lack of a solution, they complain because the solution is OBVIOUS, just not being implemented by those who "have power".
Take for example the recent MLG. I bought a ticket and while words cannot express how aweful the entire MLG experience was, it was the lack of support and professionalism from MLG that bugged me the most. An absolutely shitty production value, terrible organization, and oh umm being TOTALLY UNABLE TO WATCH 95% of the games live in the tournament is simply unacceptable.
This is not theoretical physics. these issues can be solved, easily. they are not complicated or obscure.
Just like how I shouldn't need to tell the guy at Subway to wash his hands before he makes my sub, we shouldn't have to tell MLG chairs might be useful at a huge gaming convention.
MLG is a professional organization, their tournaments have been laughable. to not complain would be doing the NA starcraft scene a great injustice as people will be lured into this false pretense that everything is okay, when in reality it is certainly not.
MLG is not in this for the charity, they are in it to profit and if they can't run a good show people should complain. If they continue their atrocious streak i am sure they will lose viewers and other tournaments will step in to take its place.
I am disgusted by how awful MLG is running, contrast this with how well other tournaments are ran (GSL, IEM, and on a different scale the TSL) and you begin to see how poor the quality of MLG is and the shitty content NA sc2 fans have to put up with.
While I appreciate your effort, your suggestions will not only NOT help the sc2 community it will hurt us by persuading us everything
Look, I don't mean to sound rude, but how many of you have actually followed MLG before starcraft 2 became an addon in the circuit? It doesn't seem like many of you have seen these problems that have come up time and time again at MLG.
I've been to at least 2 MLG events per year since 2005, and ever since they started streaming, there have been huge problems with their technology. They always unofficially promise to fix it, and the only time they have officially responded to these complaints was this past weekend when their forums exploded and people came together to let them know it's simply unacceptable.
Were some of the comments immature and unreasonable? Absolutely, and I don't support that kind of behavior. HOWEVER, just because I'm not a tech expert and can't offer any specific, "constructive" solutions does not mean I shouldn't express my lack of satisfaction about the product that I paid for. They need to be called out, whether the consumer can come up with a constructive solution or not.
I haven't been able to read all the posts as they are quite long and I'm at work right now (shhhh). I did read Anna's OP though and I can add to it in a way. I did not read the book she mentioned, but they teach us at work that diversity leads to innovation. So having some naysayers amidst a group of people can get the creative juices flowing. Have too many people being negative, and the creativeness is squashed. That being said, as someone who is looking to work with MLG with their LAN center initiative, I really want esports to succeed, not just for myself, but for the 150+ member of my the league I made.
So as an fan and someone that works in engineering, I'm going to shoot some soundproofing ideas to SD to see where I can help out.
It is amazing the amount of people who are saying cynicism and negative feedback will help mlg get it's act together. It was ok during the event to voice your disappointment about what happened. That needs to happen for the company to realize it screwed up hard. It's another thing entirely to sit here two days after and continue to make the same complaints without offering anything else.
Mlg obviously knows it screwed up this weekend. To sit here and keep complaining about it is doing what exactly? Letting them know that you are angry? Well they already know that. Providing them with ideas on how they can improve is great but only if done with a certain amount of professionalism. I think a good way to look at is, would I be saying this if I sat down in a meeting with the top people at mlg. If the answer is no, then your post is probably not very productive.
On April 05 2011 15:43 shindigs wrote: I'm trying to agree with this post, but I can't.
This is written like we're putting all our eSports eggs into MLG's basket. Last weekend for MLG, I just stopped watching the stream and didn't even bother trying to load it up and instead just deferred to TL's twitter. I'm getting a vibe that if I don't support a poorly run event, I'm not supporting eSports, which I don't understand. It's the Internet, and there will ALWAYS be unnecessary negativity, but saying that people are being too negative because they're being fairly critical isn't much better. I don't see how it's hard to sort out the good complaints from the bad ones.
I'll support eSports by supporting companies and events that are well run so that eSports is under good hands. I know MLG may have just fallen under unlucky times, but in the end they're going to have to find a streaming model that works because I'm not a fan of just hyping up a company just because they're under the mantra of "growing eSports".
This is actually a great point. I understand esports is growing and going through some refinement, but in order for us to someday be looked upon respectfully as a sport industry, we are going to have to make some tough calls and that means trimming some fat. So although MLG is a vehicle attempting to take us to our final destination, maybe for just the time being or until they build themselves a better foundation, we put a little bit more of our energy into another company. I don't feel, at this time, MLG is handling the sc2 respectfully or correctly. Criticism will indeed help better improve MLG for the future, but i think a lot of core work needs to be done on their end before we help them refine.
In short; dont put too much energy in criticizing MLG's faults, they have far too many core issues to be at a stage in which to take our suggestions.
On April 05 2011 21:17 Dimiotrix wrote: It is amazing the amount of people who are saying cynicism and negative feedback will help mlg get it's act together. It was ok during the event to voice your disappointment about what happened. That needs to happen for the company to realize it screwed up hard. It's another thing entirely to sit here two days after and continue to make the same complaints without offering anything else.
Mlg obviously knows it screwed up this weekend. To sit here and keep complaining about it is doing what exactly? Letting them know that you are angry? Well they already know that. Providing them with ideas on how they can improve is great but only if done with a certain amount of professionalism. I think a good way to look at is, would I be saying this if I sat down in a meeting with the top people at mlg. If the answer is no, then your post is probably not very productive.
It's hard to stay positive and not be angry / cynical when it's happened at every MLG that has had SC2. The problems have gotten worse, we still have shitty rules like extended series, we still don't have soundproofing so the players can still hear the announcers, bad stream, octoshape, shit quality, pricing that's WELL OVER industry standards, etc. The only thing that seems to have improved since other MLGs is seating.
You know what happened after all the other MLGs? We, collectively, got quiet. We all said "Oh, it was their first year, it'll get better." It didn't. Nothing was improved, and all we got was a shit interview with Sundance asking us to throw money at him/MLG, and the monstrosity that was MLG Dallas 2011.
I'm sorry if you guys think we should just let MLG get away with this like they've gotten away with all the other shitty LANs they've put together, or if we should be trying to help them FOR ESPORTS or some shit, but it seems that most of us are just pissed off. There is the IPL, NASL, ESL, Dreamhack, and of course the GSL. We don't need MLG to succeed for eSPORTS to succeed. I'm not saying I want it to fail, none of us are. WE WANT MLG. We want all these leagues/lan to be great. We want to spend our money on a great weekend of SC2.
What we're saying is we're tired of the shit product MLG is putting forward. If you want to keep putting together shit streams for your LANs, we're just going to stop watching, stop paying for your stream, stop buying your T-Shirts. We're going to move to people that can put together a proper tournament & viewing experience.
"According to research by John Gottman, cited in the book, work groups with positive to negative interaction ratios of 3:1 are significantly more productive than teams that do not reach this ratio."
But what if the good:bad ratio of the thing we're discussing is 1:3?
Great post and interestingly thought out. I worry though, normally I would be right behind you (in a completely non creepy way ^^), we gotta get behind these guys and make damn sure they know they're trying something we want tried and that we love them for that. But.
We have kind of dug our own graves. For all the love and vivaciousness in the gamer community, it remains enduringly critical of those who do not give what we percieve as their all. That in some circumstances is a good thing, but in others it leads to problems. Here, we have a large corporate organization trying to deliver on promises while expecting of us a significant amount in return (not necessarily direct payment, large amounts of advertising even on the free stream must be considered a value transaction for the viewer. Compare to TSL or GOM's ad load. We are a media savvy audience, we know when they are billing us, whatever the form).
It's a part of the gamer's mentality that cheats and spoilsports are the worst kind of criminal, the equivalent of traitors and heretics in 'real life'. We also hold trust and honour highly in this online world of ours, because words must bind or much of our way of life suffers. Thus, those who fail systematically to achieve those goals they state as part of a compact with us, whether they be a game developer, a player or a broadcasting company are consequently not just viewed with suspicion, the tendency is to actively revile.
This sounds a bit melodramatic, but the reason is good. Such active and public shaming and solidarity in disgust is a mechanism to protect communities that have no other real defences against fraudsters and cheats. It's a rare online community of any size that hasn't been subject to the attention of such individuals and most fall for them hook, line and sinker the first few times. From then on, the attitude becomes never again.
You have to understand that to communities like this, the hate reflex is something like a mother protecting her child. It has a good reason to exist, it is tight and it is powerful, you mess with it at your peril. It is also unthinking and damaging in many situations, and should rightly be contained as you suggest. But doing so isn't as simple as going 'hey everybody, let's not be negative nancies here', any more than I'm sure we could suppress a mother's instincts with a bright reassuring attitude.
It has always been thus in the world of video games. Companies live and die on their reputation, I could cite many examples, but blizzard and valve are probably the best examples of companies that can get away with murder now because they have earned the trust of the community through excruciating ordeal and commitment to their compacts over decades. We believe in them. MLG is in the unenviable situation of having fallen at the first hurdle, and the only way they are going to make headway now is by staggering to their feet and running all the harder, all the longer to show that they mean business.
I can predict how things will go as well, the community will watch on. It will acknowledge genuine attempts to get up and going, it has already, but it will descend on *any* mistakes and give them ten times the attention they deserve. This is in part to warn the rest of the community in case MLG turns out to be one of these tricksters (I have absolutely no doubt this is not the case, but it'll happen anyway) and in part to make sure MLG knows we're still watching. In that sense, it's a good sign. We care. We care a lot. But gamers are tough. These communities are meritocracies, you live or die by your word and whether you are as good as it. It's against the game to give someone an easy out. It's bad for the game and what's bad for the game is bad for the players.
So you can't expect encouragement and advice from all sides. Empathy and frustration will lead to a few chipping in, but most will stand and watch, they want to see whether these guys are the type to tap out under a bit of pressure or whether they have the guts to keep going. They are to be our champion, to represent us to the world. They have got to earn it with their own minds, their own sweat and tears. That is what this is about. I have every faith in them.
But enough about the problems, what can we do? We can let MLG know that as noted above, people are responding, talking, complaining. That's a good sign for now, but chances are temporary. You can't cheese every game and fail out more than a couple of times before you are forever a bitbybit. Improvement needs to be proportional to return expectation- if MLG expects anything from us from now on, they should be aiming to be better than what was previously considered perfect. Maybe take a leaf out of GOM's book, run some free showcase series, give us interviews or content, bring in some people from the outside and wow them publicly. Offer these to us as tokens of determination and many will give the compact a second chance.
We in the community can offer suggestions here- what trials can MLG undertake to win back our respect? what content can they provide us to show their potential?
We can also ensure that revulsion is tempered by context. It's an old dialectic trick to ensure that one calls the behaviour of a person idiotic, not to call the person an idiot. In the same fashion, MLG's handling of the situation was woeful. This does not mean MLG, as an entity, is woeful. If key figures in the community stress this distinction the revulsion that cannot be stopped will be directed purely at the event itself, not the organization behind it. We cannot deny that it was bad- so let us celebrate it. Laugh at how awful it was, acknowledge it in good spirits. Acknowledge that the attempts were feeble and the thinking was flawed, that bad luck and bad judgement made fools of all. Don't try and defend it for god's sake (MLG is doing a good job of this already, this is important for key members of OUR community to understand, don't act like apologists. Let MLG stand on their own feet, but direct the anger away from their future endeavours). This is an exceptionally powerful and easily accomplished spin technique and one of the few that is morally admirable.
That's all from me for now. I'd be happy to offer more if requested.
I agree that at this point, after the event, constructive criticism is the way to go.
But would fair minded, mature, measured negative comments over the weekend have resulted in MLG offering a full refund / free pass? I would argue no. It was ONLY because the lash back was so supremely harsh that MLG did this. The fact is, MLG slowly went from a no refund to a free pass to a full refund because the negativity really came pouring out.
Remember when Blizzard was going to force RealID on their forums? They only rolled that back due to a FRENZY of harsh feedback. When people complain rationally and fairly, I'm sad to say that it seems like companies don't listen.
On April 05 2011 15:43 shindigs wrote: I'm trying to agree with this post, but I can't.
This is written like we're putting all our eSports eggs into MLG's basket. Last weekend for MLG, I just stopped watching the stream and didn't even bother trying to load it up and instead just deferred to TL's twitter. I'm getting a vibe that if I don't support a poorly run event, I'm not supporting eSports, which I don't understand. It's the Internet, and there will ALWAYS be unnecessary negativity, but saying that people are being too negative because they're being fairly critical isn't much better. I don't see how it's hard to sort out the good complaints from the bad ones.
I'll support eSports by supporting companies and events that are well run so that eSports is under good hands. I know MLG may have just fallen under unlucky times, but in the end they're going to have to find a streaming model that works because I'm not a fan of just hyping up a company just because they're under the mantra of "growing eSports".
I agree with Anna's post as well, however I too have to agree with this post completely.
MLG has been given the opportunity to help promote eSports, but the reason that people are "needlessly bashing" or criticizing or whatever excuse they want to come up with is b/c they have failed miserably after a full year of "trying."
Last year people were "screaming" for sound-proof booths for the players, they were even asked about it more than a month ago on State of the Game's interview with MLG's Sundance. They ignored the cries from the people *paying them money.*
In fact, that interview came off as Sundance just telling us to give him money. Have an issue? Buy his shirts. Want to support the players? Buy the shirts. Everything came down to us supporting *him* and giving him more and more money. And that's after we find out what a crappy payout the prize pool is for such a "huge tournament."
The reason why people are being "negative" isn't due to them being trolls or just trying to blow off steam, it's b/c they care about the product that is put out in front of them. During MLG Dallas, there were issues from before the tournament started until it ended. It's not like MLG wasn't aware of the amount of people who wanted to view the stream, who paid for it, or even attended the event. Yet, it came off as MLG being completely unprepared, or worse, completely trying to scrape by w/giving the customers the least they possibly could get away with. It started w/the terrible stream quality and consistency all the way down to game lag and other such issues.
Now don't get me wrong Anna (and MLG), but you cannot completely blame the lag issues on Blizzard. I kept seeing you send out tweet after tweet asking us to hound Blizzard into bringing out dedicated servers to LAN tournaments or adding LAN support. Yet, how are we supposed to believe it was in ANY way Blizzard's fault when MLG themselves couldn't even get the games to us in the first place? Or when we continually saw other eSports lag or crash?
Don't get me wrong, I agree that Blizzard give LAN support or help the companies out that are growing Blizzard's product w/dedicated tournament servers. Yet, I cannot say definitively that any of the lag issues, drop issues, or otherwise were at all Blizzard's fault. Sure, I get the surrender screen when I play on a stable connection. Yes, it happens at other tournaments too - such as GSL. However, how many people dropped during one weekend at MLG when GSL hardly ever has their players drop from live games? Worse, how many players were dropping as a direct result of the terrible internet connection that MLG was using to host these games and stream them to us?
Anna, neither you nor MLG would be getting as much "negativity" from "us" if this were the first time it has happened at MLG. Yet all the events last year had the exact same issues. How can MLG with a straight face tell us we're being negative or even that they're "sorry" when this has happened time and time again? That's just plain silly. Sounds like a ridiculous statement that children use with their parents. Not because the child is truly sorry, but because the child got caught yet AGAIN.
This post probably seems to you like I'm just being negative, but how can there be a positive outlook on this MLG event (or ones coming in the future) when this has been a recurring issue with MLG's management at said events with absolutely nothing being done to rectify the problems after more than a year?
Well written. I agree (a bit) with Anna's blog but more with the quoted poster. Anna you speak about giving / offering solutions with every complaint. And I totally agree with that. The problem is when a huge money hungry organization like MLG don't listen. Because after a full year of trying and testing they still haven't taken us seriously with anything that has been suggested.
After the first MLG event of 2010 concerns were voiced about the players overhearing the commentators and crowd. Soundproof booths were suggested right away. Even the cheaper alternative which IEM uses with sound confusing headsets (The player gets ingame audio from ear plugs and is required to use soundproofing headphones on top of them. The exterior headphones play "loud" ingame music which cover up around 95% of the sound leaks from the ear plugs.) Was anything done by MLG to prevent this at Dallas 2011? The answer is NO.
Anyone who has ever been to a mall or venue in North America knows that the internet is utter shit. And I can safely say that even though I live in Sweden (been in US 5 times). So what does MLG do? They take this very unstable low capacity broadband and then wants to broadcast a so called High Definition stream _AND_ a low quality free stream. And when it fails on all accounts (which it did) they put the blame on the venue. Just to clarify this as well, since I know America has a suing culture, advertising the HQ stream with "Experience the games in full crystal clear HD" when all you can deliver is a 240p stream is just like asking to get sued. If you look up "High Definition" you will find its a concept from the TV industry and it will say that quality is supposed to be run at 720p at minimum. The streaming issues isn't anything new at all and now you can add in that MLG gets exposure from GSL. What did they think was going to happen when they add one of the most popular internet games around to the Pro Circuit without getting adequate broadband coverage? Sundance spoke on State of the Game about the costs with running satellite trucks. And well I'm sorry to say, but if SC2 is going to be a part of MLG you need to make proper investments if you want to run such an intensive broadband game.
Now I know that Sundance and his crew probably worked 72 hours straight to get things fixed, and that is something I think everyone can appreciate. So just to skip forward a bit, ignoring the lag, lack of streaming, lack of information on Friday and Saturday we now come to Sunday.
For Sunday the HQ stream was sacked and the LQ stream was more stable then previously. MLG brought on three great casters in Day9, DJWheat and JP. But that was shown to clearly not be enough. On a personal level I can say that I had stopped being mad at MLG and was just happy that the Championship and Loser brackets were being streamed and played. Until the end of Idra vs Huk (which was streamed). All of a sudden when its down to the LAST EIGHT in the tournament MLG comes up with the idea to stop casting and show a freaking camera shot of the crowd for 55 minutes while the quarter finals are being played. I mean come on MLG!?!?! How stupid can you get. The stream viewers missed TLO vs Idra and TLO vs InControl... And to add insult to injury the live chat keeps updating the stream with scores while we are forced to JUST SEE THE CROWD. How come you bring in three great casters and they don't even get to cast? Where is the logic in this MLG? I've worked as a production assistant for two years and I have never seen such disrespect for the live streaming audience. It is one hundred percent UNACCEPTABLE. You can't go in to the last day of a tournament that has had so many problems and chose to not cast all the RO16 and RO8 matches when everything is working (except the lack of commentators). So since I wasn't on site for Dallas I can only speculate as to why the bracket was being played but not cast.
So to be in line with your blog post Anna I'll give some answers with my criticism. 1. MLG needs to have four casters on site so you always have cover for the games when someone needs to eat/rest. Husky and TL's own caster Chill would be great additions. 2. MLG is a profitable company and need to bring in enough equipment to cover streaming for 130 countries they claim are watching. 3. MLG needs to make sure that there is a proper mainstage with more then two computers. You cant run a 250+ tournament and only have two computers on the stage. Four or six to prevent delays. 4. There is plenty of soundproofing methods, chose one and make sure its up to standard. 5. MLG needs a proper production team. If you want to go big with esports you cant have people running around not knowing what to do or when to do what. MLG needs a better stage, interviews, background story etc. 6. If you advertise a high definition stream make sure its up to standards. 7. Make proper VODs and not just a looping restream. You can basically talk to any other major tournament organizer to get help (GSL, Dreamhack, IEM). 8. When things go wrong, make sure there is cover for the issues. Faster replay streaming etc. And when unexpected stuff happens make sure MLG provides the viewers with fast and adequate information on the issue.
What MLG did right during the Dallas Event. 1. Refunds for any paying customer. 2. Free pass for any paying customer to get a HD stream of a MLG event of their choosing. 3. Sundance DiGiovannis formal apology. 4. MLG bowing their heads in shame and admitting that there are some severe issues that need to be solved. 5. Great casters (just get one or two extra)
P.S Anna if you read this and feel the tone towards you is aggressive I can assure you that it wasn't my intention.
On April 05 2011 16:00 Velr wrote: The last MLG was the worst of all MLG's for everyone not at the event themselves. Day 1 and 2 were nearly not existant, day 3 was also delayed and had unnessesary waiting times.
There is just absoluetly NOTHING to he happy about for people like me that tryed to watch it from their homes. It was probably the worst "professional"-tournament that ever was streamed (or better: should have been streamed). Even after the stream was "up" there were unessesary downtimes while the top 8 (?) were duking it out.
No Complaining? There is nothing else to do. This was the worst viewing experience of any SC2 tournament i have ever watched (that includes weekly tournaments).
Or is "positive" feedback something like: The games you showed were awesome! Please try to show many more next time!
Guys, I'm really frustrated by the few people who are posting these type of thoughts without reading what I actually said. I stressed the importance of bringing concerns to the table and making disappointment known. The "No complaining rule" and "positive feedback" just meas committing to offer solutions alongside those concerns.
On April 05 2011 16:19 Grantiere wrote: As an employee? of MLG and someone with far greater access to the behind-the-scenes goings-on than most viewers or attendees, what are some realistic suggestions that you believe MLG should adopt to provide a better experience?
Just to clear this up: I have never been so far and am not at this point an employee of MLG.
Also: this post uses MLG as an example, because that's where I just came from, but I really was writing more about a general concept to be applied across the board.
Thanks for really good, interesting feedback everyone.
On April 05 2011 17:28 kpzd wrote: Yea, negative attitudes and complaining can kill a workplace, if it's being done by the workers, not by the customers.
If the customers are collectively angry / complaining it's NOT going to kill productivity. You think MLG is seeing all this negativity / whining / bitching and are crawling up in a corner going "Aww QQ the internet is being mean to us." No, they're going to (hopefully) get their shit together in time for next MLG. Collective complaining isn't a bad thing when you're considering the context. The customers got a shit product and we have every right to complain. If all this complaining stifles the product MLG puts out because they're upset their customers are mad then they're probably not cut out to run a multi-million dollar business, sorry.
This is a very good point. I would still say, though, that we will get results faster if we offer solutions alongside our (justified) grievances. That's really the main point of the blog.
On April 05 2011 21:34 Pholon wrote: "According to research by John Gottman, cited in the book, work groups with positive to negative interaction ratios of 3:1 are significantly more productive than teams that do not reach this ratio."
But what if the good:bad ratio of the thing we're discussing is 1:3?
Closer to 1:10 if you examine the NASL and MLG LR threads.
On April 05 2011 17:35 silentsaint wrote: Constructive Feedback ^^: One of the main-problems that come to my mind while thinking about the MLG this weekend is that there only was one game that the casters did wait for at a time like only one game is planned for the main-stage so they can only cast this and nothing else (from the sid-stages or w/e its called).
As the technical difficulties occured for this main-stage-game the casters had no fallback-game to cast. The reason for that is entirely unknown to me as we live in a "connected" world and at least technically it should be possible to access any game from where the casters where.
I would suggest to find ways to at least have one fallback game if the mainstage has problems. Sure, you don't know if the main-stage-problem will be resolved fast and you surely don't want to miss the top-match..
What really would be great would be a technology like HLTV for Starcraft 2. That you can attend any running game if there are free slots available if one knows the match-ID.
I think that's a great idea... I'm sure it would be an easy process to throw one or a couple of the other matches up on the stream while we are waiting in a "SC2 overview" or something. Well put!
3. Record interviews between games with "famous" players or guys that did better than expected. The after game interviews were bad and brought next to nothing to the event. Have players join the casters from time to time for interviews or even let them cast a game together. You got all the players there, "USE THEM".
I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with this... and would like to apply for the job...
4. Either get soundproof boots or let the players play in another room, having no commentary for the live audience is terrible, having players hear the commentators is loltastic.
One thing people may not have known from watching the stream is that MLG did invest in sound-cancelling headsets for the main stage players, in an effort to mitigate that issue. They just didn't really work (cause we are all so loud ). From what I hear, that was the last idea they had other than booths, so here's hoping. I think that is a HUGE priority, and would be surprised if they have any excuse not to have them for Columbus.
On April 05 2011 18:28 MalFeaSanCe wrote: I will also make an another example. Alot of people complain that playing on battlenet is very laggy and problematic for competitive starcraft. Assume we dont know a solution to this problem (we know having lan ability could solve most of this probelms), complaining on TL and making youtube videos complaining will not necessarily make the people that matters know about it. What will help is a miillion people writing to MLG, GOM and any other big tournament partners of Blizzard as well as Blizzard themselves telling them of this problrm and complaining to them about it. Of course if you offer them constructive criticsm it will might help them solve this problem. But it is more important that a LARGE number of people to tell BLizzard that it is a probelm and it needs to be fixed. By complaing to Blizzards partners such as GOM or MLG, those partners are more likely to tell Blizzard og the problems. You might say those issues has nothing to do with GOM and MLG and that it is unfair to complain to them about it but if many people complain, it is more like they bring it to the attention of Blizzard and partners of Blizzard can be more persuasive. Even if there are not obvious solutions, if it is in a company's interest to try to fix problems, they will spend resources on finding a solution.
I think you are right, where we direct our criticism, no matter what form it takes, is really important as well.
the best way to get any company to do what you want is to make a big thread (or multiple threads) where you state what the problems are, and everyone commits not to give them money (buy expansions, buy the next MLG pass) until the problems are solved
I think the main thing that holds eSports in general from exploding into a mainstream form of entertainment is the lack of profitability for an investor. The same thing has happened for decades in the NLL, a professional box lacrosse league that hasn't been able to crack its way onto the ESPNs of the world. The NLL seems to have everything in place, a sport that is growing at a rate greater than nearly every other sport at the grassroots level, huge sponsorship deals from RBK etc, their games fill 20,000 seat arenas (occasionally) in major metropolitan cities like NY, Denver, Toronto, San Jose.
Sounds great right? Like an owner could expect to make a profit and a player should be able to make a decent living right? Nah.
I played in this league for 3 years and made under 30k combined. There are only 2 players that earn more than 30,000 a year in this sport (I think there are some players now that have individual sponsorships?), and owners and teams can't turn a profit.
The business models for these fringe entertainment activities are so shaky, even when well executed (see NLL). In fact, many MLB, NBA and NHL franchises hemorrhage money every year! This makes it really tough to find investors that are willing to risk losing their shirts on these things. What eSports really needs is a stable organization backed by someone that isn't looking to make a profit, and is fully cool with losing money on the venture.
I don't mean to be a downer, this is just a suggestion that eSports should continue to grow at the grassroots level before getting too ambitious. Putting our support towards things like Dreamhack, GSL and MLG is great stuff!
Just a warning from a lacrosse pro that heard a lot of the same promises of fame and riches out of the lacrosse community. Go slow and be enjoy the success that we've already got.
On April 06 2011 00:13 Zorkmid wrote: I think the main thing that holds eSports in general from exploding into a mainstream form of entertainment is the lack of profitability for an investor. The same thing has happened for decades in the NLL, a professional box lacrosse league that hasn't been able to crack its way onto the ESPNs of the world. The NLL seems to have everything in place, a sport that is growing at a rate greater than nearly every other sport at the grassroots level, huge sponsorship deals from RBK etc, their games fill 20,000 seat arenas (occasionally) in major metropolitan cities like NY, Denver, Toronto, San Jose.
Sounds great right? Like an owner could expect to make a profit and a player should be able to make a decent living right? Nah.
I played in this league for 3 years and made under 30k combined. There are only 2 players that earn more than 30,000 a year in this sport (I think there are some players now that have individual sponsorships?), and owners and teams can't turn a profit.
The business models for these fringe entertainment activities are so shaky, even when well executed (see NLL). In fact, many MLB, NBA and NHL franchises hemorrhage money every year! This makes it really tough to find investors that are willing to risk losing their shirts on these things. What eSports really needs is a stable organization backed by someone that isn't looking to make a profit, and is fully cool with losing money on the venture.
I don't mean to be a downer, this is just a suggestion that eSports should continue to grow at the grassroots level before getting too ambitious. Putting our support towards things like Dreamhack, GSL and MLG is great stuff!
Just a warning from a lacrosse pro that heard a lot of the same promises of fame and riches out of the lacrosse community. Go slow and be enjoy the success that we've already got.
interesting, since apparently esports grew in korea thanks to investment by their government. maybe it is just something that needs a big initial investment
You love tennis and you get invited to spectate a week-end all-star tennis tournament and you decide to dedicate your time to go and see it. You get there and you learn that the referee is sick. Also they didn't cut the grass on the field (it was 50 pc mud anyway, it rained all night, they forgot to protect the field). The net got stolen during the night (honestly, who steals tennis nets full o holes ?). Oh and the guy supposed to deliver the balls called in sick. But they managed to find one ball in the last minute, it got a bump but it bounces. New ones should be there momentarily. Just like the players, they just took their lunch break.
As a decent spectator, what do you do ?
You go and hug the organizers and tell them they did their best - but if they're receptive to it, you got or two innovative crazy ideas to make the event even better next time (since they improved a lot since last time, it looks like there's room for more new crazy stuff). Also tell the guy who's making some noise over there complaining about the whole event to shut up, it's not constructive to be that loud.
Then you go back home and stare at the wall. Till Monday. And try not to drool.
It's 2011. Everyone knows what differentiates a good event from a crappy one. MLG just need to put their é&"' together for next time (just like last time). What other constructive comment do you need in this very case ? "Hey, it would be nice with an internet connection that works!" "I got a crazy idea, why don't you recruit people with an IT education"
We (and by we I mean I as usual) need simple stuff : get a caster, stream games all day long and 51% (or more) of the job is done. The remaining 49% to make the shit sparkle and get an A+ is prize pool, interviews of players and organizers, drama (i.e. invite Idra), qualitative analysis of the game, production, gg's, random stuff like battlenet working properly, updated brackets, but they ain't the priority ,the priority is show us some effin game.
This week-end, 10% (?) of the job was done. I find the title of the post all in all vague. If it's about the MLG debacle, well, they got pissed customers, it's up to them to do what's needed to make next season a success, I don't see how we can help them with that except being loud, they ain't stupid, they got to work internally to fix the mess they were in. If a tyre company starts producing squared wheels, if they rely on the customers to help them, they probably should reconsider being in the business.
If yours is a broader reflexion on what is needed to make an even successful, then the blog post title is not really adapted imo. And there's a lot to discuss.
I don't have an issue with internet or tech issues as sometimes those things are out of your control.However, the lack of games shown were the issue and the amount of downtime/filler. They had no contingency plans setup. When 1 game was having issues not all games were experiencing the same p[problems. Therefore you need to be able to switch to another game on the fly and comeback if necessary. Like any other sports event you have to have alternatives in place. Just like blow out games in real sports or rain delays etc.. they dont just sit there and fill hours on end with chat.
Setup a bunch of games with observing and switch when needed.. how hard is that... I feel for the casters.. they had to fill way too much time.
I think that the logistics of casting a live event and having to rely on the internet, BNet etc. are so mind boggling difficult, you just on average will end up with a worse product than something cast from replays like the TSL3 or the planned NASL. Until there's enough money in north american eSports to cover the huge overhead costs of organizing a big live event, maybe we should stick to the TSL3 style events.
I was at the event this weekend and was disappointed with the troubles they had. The connection issues were of course no fun, but the main issue my son and I had is that we go is to watch the games and the commentary is a huge part of that. Not being able to hear the casters from the audience was a big deal. When they first shut off the commentary I tweeted a comment to Sundance and he tweeted back that the players could hear and they were working on it. I felt better knowing the reason, but they never fixed the situation for the audience. Not the best situation, but I knew they knew, and griping about it would just make us both more miserable.
I also let Sundance and his workers know what I did like. The best things were the seating (yay for padded chairs) and the Alienware booth where my son spent way too many hours playing SC2. It was especially great during the lag-induced downtime. After the event, you could tell Sundance was worn out but I made sure to let him know what went right. It was obvious that he was well aware of all the things that went wrong.
Yesterday I bought my season pass to support NASL. I'm sure they will have some technical difficulties, but I'm excited at how they and others are really ramping things up this year.
It was a pleasure meeting you, Anna. I too was thankful for your twitter reporting on many of the games around the venue. Thanks!
Agreed. I couldn't believe some of the shit being posted in the live report threads - it was pretty pathetic. Obviously I wasn't happy about the stream being down and the lag but what do people think they are accomplishing by posting something like:
"MLG is absolutely fucking pathetic how can they be so incompetent ::rage::"
?
Do you think MLG is unaware that people are upset that the stream is down? Or that they are upset that they paid money for a HQ pass but aren't getting the stream in HQ? It's not like there was someone overseeing the production side of things who was thinking "Oh well the stream is completely fucked but people will be ok with that - let's not bother trying to fix things."
That being said it's of course necessary to give some sort of feedback and I think the point that that feedback should have some constructive aspect to it is a great one.
How much more useful is it to say that there should be replays casted during the downtime than to say "This is fucking stupid I'd rather watch baby eagles."
While I agree with you that many people weren't constructive in their criticisms and that it's not helpful to the scene, it's unrealistic to expect everyone to adhere to your positive attitude. I beleive that when consumers are mad that they're getting fuck all for their money, they've got the right to be upset. For some of the hardcore SC2 observers, I'm sure that MLG Dallas is something that they've been looking forward to a long time.
If I order a Pepperoni Pizza and the delivery guy brings me an empty box with a roughly pizza sized hunk of wood inside, I'm not going to call and tell the pizza place what they've done right!
Me: "Hi Pizza place! First off, thanks for making the delivery on time, only took 22 minutes, wow! Also, the artwork on the box is just splendid! You did however, forget my Pizza, and next time I call and order one, I hope things are fixed on your end! Thanks for all your hard work and talk to you next week!"
I'm not asking people to look for positive aspects of a negative thing and only talk about those. I'm asking people to talk about negative things with a constructive tone and with suggestions for improvement.
No one should be happy with what happened at MLG this weekend but that doesn't mean you have to express your displeasure with curses and rage instead of maturity and a calm head.
Even with a working stream this MLG would have left tons of room for complaining.
Downtimes between games because only the mainstage got castet is just a no go. Not showing the RO8, i mean... That actually just makes me speechless.
No "fluff". They did not show games, they did not show interviews or anything else. What did they actually do between games? Theyre not all tech stuff?
A way to complicated Tournament system/bracket, you couldn't follow the tourney whiteout basically making your bachelor degree in tournament bracket searching and reading. Why is the MLG system more complicatet then that of all the others? Is there any reason except.. Halo?
So much of the stuff that would counter these things is just Obvious, it was obvious after the first MLG and it still is obvious after the fourth, yet nothing changed (except the seating -.-).
Why can Dreamhack, Assembly, IEM and loads of other organisations/lans bring decent streams on their first try while MLG is on their fourth and still not capable of doing so? All this other events also had their problems, but they showed game after game after game. You could follow the tournament, they weren't perfect but I and most others got entertained (and sometimes annoyed by casters or whatever ). This MLG brought for the first 2 days no entertainment at all and at the third day it was just a "bad" entertainment with unessesary and uncomprehensible breaks.
This all would be no big thing, if MLG 1-3 would have worked like a charm and such an emergency situation would have been a big surprice for everyone... But it wasn't, they knew that bad stuff can happen and they still weren't prepared for it, not in the least.
As harsh as this may sound: As it seems the MLG is having such problems not just since SC2 joined it, it has them since an eternity and the solutions for unrealiable Streams and stuff like this is since an eternity the same.... As soon as the MLG will get serious competition, it will either improve like crazy (what has to be done is cristal clear)... or die. No one will miss it (if the new organisation is somewhat decent).
Sundance taking care of the problem? Regarding the track record... I think Sundance is a part of the problem.
Edit: I know that you want positive critism... But there is so much wrong with the event. The "big" stuff went wrong (payed HQ stream/stream alltogether), the smaller stuff went wrong (soundproofing)... It was one big mess and no matter how hard i try, i can't have a positive attitude to such an offensive showing of utter incompetence.
On April 05 2011 16:00 Velr wrote: The last MLG was the worst of all MLG's for everyone not at the event themselves. Day 1 and 2 were nearly not existant, day 3 was also delayed and had unnessesary waiting times.
There is just absoluetly NOTHING to he happy about for people like me that tryed to watch it from their homes. It was probably the worst "professional"-tournament that ever was streamed (or better: should have been streamed). Even after the stream was "up" there were unessesary downtimes while the top 8 (?) were duking it out.
No Complaining? There is nothing else to do. This was the worst viewing experience of any SC2 tournament i have ever watched (that includes weekly tournaments).
Or is "positive" feedback something like: The games you showed were awesome! Please try to show many more next time!
Guys, I'm really frustrated by the few people who are posting these type of thoughts without reading what I actually said. I stressed the importance of bringing concerns to the table and making disappointment known. The "No complaining rule" and "positive feedback" just meas committing to offer solutions alongside those concerns.
Anna, I just want to offer you encouragement in what is certainly and extremely arduous endeavor. As it stands, you are asking people to have a mature outlook in a medium that has until now been exploited for the very reasons to the contrary. Anonymity and ease of access have encouraged the type of attitude that you are hoping to limit or eliminate all together. Forums are a place where people are able to get away with whatever they want based on these principles. There are many posts prior that exhibit the difficulty of the situation by themselves (IE asking people to be polite on the internet.) However, the topic in general, despite a few that seem to not have read it (like the one you are referring directly to) do show the desire of some to encourage this type of attitude. We do have the power to affect things for the better, as you are hoping to do and from what I have seen in the Starcraft community in general, reinforced by statements made by those in more prevalent positions in the community about the fans at events, show me that this is definitely not a futile endeavor. What you are hoping for and encouraging is something that is really special to the internet community in general, gaming communities in specific, that is a real possibility. We have the possibility to build a community that respects people and is, hopefully, a good and encouraging community for everyone who wants and is able to participate in it. The community, people, and personalities are the only reason I stick with Starcraft. The game is amazing but without the people behind it, it is just another game. We can shape what type of community this becomes. Thank you for your comments and work.
the ministry of culture, sports and tourism has a $3.1 billion USD budget in 2011 and some of it goes towards esports each year i guess. some of the money is spent on stuff like building esports stadiums. i'm sure there is good information on it somewhere on the internet
On April 05 2011 15:26 uNcontroLable wrote: I’m sure most of you can feel it. There are big things happening in e-sports, and specifically in Starcraft. The State of the Game Panel maxed out the PAX East venue hours before it began, and flooded Kingston HyperX with love messages for their continued sponsorship. Starcraft 2 has been announced for World Cyber Games, and was given its own main stage at Major League Gaming Dallas this past weekend. In countless ways, the community is growing, it’s changing, and it’s creating a buzz. For many citizens of the e-sports world, this motivates us to ask “How can I help?” I suggest that, as a community, we collectively have the potential to be an unstoppable, positive, impactful force – but we may need to take a moment to re-align our approach if we are to make real progress.
Last year at MLG Dallas, sparse benches and a small room weren’t capable of containing the love that the community wanted to give Starcraft 2. We spoke out to MLG, and they listened. This year at MLG Dallas, we had a main stage with just as many seats as the shooters (still not quite enough ) and marked attention from the event organizers. It’s important that we count that improvement as a success, both on our part, and on the part of MLG. However, no-one, including MLG leadership, will tell you that the MLG experience this weekend was anywhere close to optimal. Issues with unstable live stream, in-game lag, and in-house audio containment kept many viewers from experiencing the event that they paid for, and, arguably, even impacted the outcome of a few matches. I am proud that, as a community, we are again making our voices known (and serious props to MLG for their sense of responsibility and continued desire to listen and improve http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=209086). That said, as we endeavor to make our concerns heard, it is imperative that we do so in a way that will maximize the chances of improvement.
I was recently encouraged to read “The No Complaining Rule” by Jon Gordon, and it opened my eyes to some enlightening research on the science of positivity, negativity, and getting results. According to research by John Gottman, cited in the book, work groups with positive to negative interaction ratios of 3:1 are significantly more productive than teams that do not reach this ratio. That’s not to say we shouldn’t ever have negative interactions – it’s necessary to address tough issues and hold each other accountable – what it does mean, though, is that positivity brings about change. When we mindlessly flame or troll an organization, person, or situation, we may feel better, we may get agreement from our peers, but rarely will we truly get the ear of those who are capable of implementing change.
As the book puts it “The goal is not to eliminate all complaining. The intent is to eliminate the kind of mindless complaining that doesn’t serve a greater purpose and allow complaining that is justified and worthwhile.” If you think about it, how much better and how much more powerful would we be if every member of our community was committed to offering a solution (or 2) alongside every complaint? “The lag @^#^& sucked and the audio in the venue makes the results invalid” does make known a concern, but how much more useful is “please push Blizzard to come alongside you with solutions like dedicated server or LAN support” and “I think sound-proof booths on the main stage would really improve the experience and, in the long run, save you money.” How much more are you willing to change for someone when they build you up instead of beat you down?
There is power both in our numbers and in our intellect, SC2 community. We have proven over and over that we are capable and willing to hold ourselves to a higher standard when it comes to conduct. We need leaders who will step up and take responsibility for the change we want to see in this industry. To that end, I propose a “No Complaining Rule” when it comes to our efforts to grow e-sports: a commitment to accompany every complaint with a solution, a culture with an attitude of positivity that will help us work together with the organizations that we care about, coming alongside them to offer guidance as we work toward a common goal: the realization of our mutual passions.
For Aiur,
Anna
You point is valid if the complaining is coming from employees of MLG. We all know that if you have a complaint, it's important that people offer a solution. However, the complaints are coming from consumers. As a for-profit organization, MLG would be committing financial suicide if it ignores the complaints of its viewers/consumers.
The only viable way for a company to ignore the complaints of its consumer is if they own a monopoly in the market; MLG doesn't.
I couldn't agree more with Anna. Don't get me wrong, i think that shitstorms have to be summoned sometimes, when people won't listen. But MLG obviously knew they fucked up big time, did the best they could to fix the situation and even offered a refund, so there was no need to unload on them as much as people did. Anyway, hopefully the both sides learned something from this experience.
On April 05 2011 16:19 Grantiere wrote: As an employee? of MLG and someone with far greater access to the behind-the-scenes goings-on than most viewers or attendees, what are some realistic suggestions that you believe MLG should adopt to provide a better experience?
Just to clear this up: I have never been so far and am not at this point an employee of MLG.
Also: this post uses MLG as an example, because that's where I just came from, but I really was writing more about a general concept to be applied across the board.
Thanks for really good, interesting feedback everyone.
In that case, shouldn't you be? Or maybe you'll be producing content for NASL, which would be just as nice. With the example of content produced by yourself, edwardstarcraft, mrbitter and others, wouldn't it behoove any e-sports organization to at least actively seek out and facilitate participation by content-producing members of the community? Roving reporters, live bloggers, maybe a sketch artist like cocoshoo - there are many ways in which a tournament can be turned into an event, rather than be treated as merely a bracket of individual games.
Personally I'd love to see someone whose sole role is to create photoshopped pics / memes of noteworthy games / personalities / themes of an event.
Complaint: MLG habitually starts anywhere from 30 minutes to multiple hours late and not a single event last year started on time.
Suggestion: Start on time?
See how that approach kind of breaks down at a certain point? Without knowing all the specifics of why MLG perpetually starts late I cannot offer a constructive suggestion for something that is annoying to and greatly affects the viewers. It is very hard to give constructive feedback about problems they will not tell us the specifics of.
On April 06 2011 04:32 Duravi wrote: Complaint: MLG habitually starts anywhere from 30 minutes to multiple hours late and not a single event last year started on time.
Suggestion: Start on time?
See how that approach kind of breaks down at a certain point? Without knowing all the specifics of why MLG perpetually starts late I cannot offer a constructive suggestion for something that is annoying to and greatly affects the viewers. It is very hard to give constructive feedback about problems they will not tell us the specifics of.
Yeah, exactly. I agree with the merits of a positive attitude and offering solutions with complaints, but sometimes it's just too much.
Complaint: Only the first set of games had commentary.
Suggestion: Spend 5 minutes testing the sound system at the volume it needs to be used at to find out if the players can hear it. Plan ahead of time to either have or not have commentating instead of unprofessionally pulling at after the first set and with not official explanation or apology.
Complaint: Only one set of games was shown on the main stage on saturday, and it was painfully laggy.
Suggestion: As an IT professional, there is no good excuse as to why those computers were not running well and the majority of the other seemed fine. Obviously the main stage should have priority. If there was something wrong with the computers themselves, replace them. If there was a problem with the cable running to those computers, re run it. I could have fixed virtually any problem those computers were having in two hours or less.
There was is no valid excuse for how bad MLG was, the only real suggestion is to put more effort into it and hire someone that gives a damn.
They should refund people who purchased tickets to attend.
It was interesting to read Anna's post. It's always nice when someone posts something intelligent and well written on a forum. I like that positivity.
It frustrates me so much when people say that we can't change the amount of shit on the internet, so just don't try. That makes me want to scream! We CAN change things - infact, TL.net is an example of how strong moderating can create high standards on an internet site. If only more forums did this.
I think the amount of complaints about MLG were deserved, and I think many people stated their complaints in a reasonable way. I glad that the level of discontent caused MLG to give refunds, as this should put more pressure on them to improve next time or lose even more cash.
I do applaud Anna's decision to ask people to think about how they complain however. Telling a company why you're not happy with the service and asking for a refund is completely acceptable. Calling a company and insulting their employees, threatening them, talking shit about their mothers and posting photoshopped pictures of them on the internet is immature and it puts you just as much in the wrong as them (if not more). It also gives a bad impression of the community when a lot of people get together and do it.
I also wanted to write MLG a letter about the whole debacle but I couldn't find anything on their website to send feedback to, does anyone know how to contact them in a way that someone will actually read it?
On April 06 2011 06:12 Treemonkeys wrote: I also wanted to write MLG a letter about the whole debacle but I couldn't find anything on their website to send feedback to, does anyone know how to contact them in a way that someone will actually read it?
You can find Sundances email on his twitter account
I do applaud Anna's decision to ask people to think about how they complain however. Telling a company why you're not happy with the service and asking for a refund is completely acceptable. Calling a company and insulting their employees, threatening them, talking shit about their mothers and posting photoshopped pictures of them on the internet is immature and it puts you just as much in the wrong as them (if not more). It also gives a bad impression of the community when a lot of people get together and do it.
I agree with this sentiment, but the point I was trying to make though is that in order to give constructive feedback you need a certain amount of knowledge about the inner-workings of a service that they do not (and in some cases should not) provide. If I get a black screen for 30 seconds during a critical play well watching the superbowl I could and should complain about it but any feedback I offered other than "dont screw up" would be pure speculation as to how the network planned and ran the event. When it comes to an entertainment product like this constructive criticism ends when you transition from "more things I would like to see" to "I'm not seeing much of anything". This is where I primarily have a bone to pick with what Anna is saying.
I understand where you are coming from Anna and to some extent I agree. However, we at StarCrack podcast weren't so nice to MLG. We did quite a bit of ranting to be honest. We think that without pointing out the flaws, things may not change and will go unchecked. We were promised lots of things after the last MLG and people didn't complain much. As a result, it seems like they didn't fix much.
As a counter-point, I'd like to also offer a book recommendation: Bright-Sided: How Positive Thinking Is Undermining America by Barbara Ehrenreich.
A fantastic look at the dangers of becoming overly positive.
I certainly appreciate the sentiment that remaining positive can have beneficial effects. But when you're actively trying to stay positive, it can be hard to assess what needs to be negatively reinforced. People looking to be positive can often downplay negatives and thus fail to properly address them. I don't know how to run a tournament, but I DO know that I planned my weekend around a big SC2 tournament and was incredibly disappointed. I can't tell anyone how to fix things, but I certainly know that they need to BE FIXED.
We're not the gentle but firm parents of our adolescent son MLG. It's not our collective place to sit MLG down and take the time to explain why their behavior was inappropriate and what they should do in the future. Most of us don't have that know-how. But we sure as shit can voice our displeasure to show a business that we aren't going to put up with more of that.
Now I don't buy into the whole, "it's the internet, that's what's going to happen" mentality, but I feel like this pressing need to offer solutions along with your criticisms takes things too far. As other people have said, the most constructive thing most of us can say is "Find someone who can run a tournament better and hire them." Does that diminish the worth of our complaints? I don't think so.
MLG was not a situation where you can expect people to sit around table and go, "Well, what did MLG do right." It was a massive failure in terms of the broadcast.
If you want to take something positive out of this though, look at the passion all these complaints contain. They really want MLG to be good. MLG would be in a lot more trouble if people didn't really care.
Should people be less full of piss and vinegar? Yeah probably, but I don't see the particular set of complaints being voiced against the event to be unwarranted.
Is it ever wrong to say, or at least recognize something as being true? I don't think so. The event went very poorly. One can argue that constantly harping on it is a waste of time, but trying to squeeze positivity for its own sake is an exercise in dilusion.