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This is a response to The Korean Online Invasion. The blog title is, yes, intentionally inflammatory.
There are two kinds of tournaments: global and local. There are three ways to play in a tournament: qualify, be invited, or (occasionally) just show up. Most tournaments rely on the first, with occasional use of the second (mainly for hype purposes). Some tournaments (most LANS, most notably MLG) use mainly the third.
I am all in favor of global tournaments, although perhaps they should be conducted less frequently - as all-star events, on the level of WCG.
Many tournaments will have to make a decision: to remain local, or go global (although in fact most tournaments actually have the reverse problem: remain global or go local).
I believe the majority of regular leagues should be local. There are several reasons for this.
The first is simply a question of logistics. For in-person leagues, it is completely impractical to fly between continents on a regular basis. Online play eliminates some of the difficulty, but it is plagues by lag (and more importantly, complaints of lag), scheduling difficulties, and casting issues (most importantly, a public dislike of replay casting, although we are getting used to it).
The second is the issue of qualification. Assume for a minute that you are a grandmaster player and show up to your local LAN, only to find that Liquid`Tyler is there. Sure, he might get cheesed out by a lucky opponent, but anyone else's odds of winning the tournament have drastically dropped. Now magnify that: you are an NA pro, and register for the NASL... and face MC and Bomber in a group. (I'm picking on NASL because with a name like that they ought to be a local league.) This is equivalent to a Japanese or Korean league team finding out that the New York Yankees will be playing in their league for the season.
Once again, I repeat: I have nothing against global leagues, as long as they are recognized as such: but I feel that they should probably be the minority.
The third is stability and development. While MLG's exchange program with the GSL makes sense from a hype standpoint, and MLG is clearly a global league, it seems to me that there is a necessity for leagues in which the local players can play "safely", that is, without the 80% chance that they show up to play only to lose to Naniwa or MMA.
Unfortunately, the current SC2 picture is not favorable to the development of local leagues (outside of Korea, which has always been local; any team playing in GOM's league is asked to "be Korean", at least for the season). Many if not most teams are international (Liquid is a great example), and in that atmosphere there is next to no pressure to develop locally, especially given that most of the big non-Korean leagues are either online (IPL, NASL, TSL) or rare LAN events which can be worked into a schedule and budget (MLG events, Dreamhack).
The IPL is taking a good step in this direction by limiting participants to "local" players. The next step is for more leagues to do this.
But in the end, if we want local leagues, we need local teams. If teams continue to be international and play across the world, there is very little point to local leagues because they do not represent the game as a whole. I have argued before that local leagues are a necessity for the lasting success of esports. I stand by that: but in order for local leagues to be plausible, local teams are a necessity. Like I said in that article, the most stable league outside of Korea - excepting possibly MLG - is the CSL. Why? Because CSL teams are, by necessity, local.
You want Koreans out of your leagues? Have a local organization. Without the barriers that localization inherently creates, from perception to actual difficulty (and once again I direct your attention to the attrition rate of foreigners who have played in Korea), there is neither practical possibility or good reason to prevent outside players from competing.
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Comes down to:
- Keep Koreans out; potentially win some money; maintain lower skill level - Allow Koreans in; potentially win money; gain experience to grow skill set
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The best will want to play on the biggest stage. The biggest stage is international. Sure, it would be cool if there were local teams, and might encourage growth, but I don't see it realistically happening by itself.
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has being isolated ever been good for anything?
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I believe the main general difference between koreans and foreigners is their work ethic and team practice atmosphere. Where koreans have the upper hand it seems.
The debate of whether or not to keep koreans out of NA tournaments is silly.
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this should be closed. You don't want to play with the best on a regular basis? well then welcome to era of Korean Dominance 2.0.
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this is stupid, the tournaments dont care about players crying because they cant beat koreans. The fact is, if big korean names like MC and losira are playing in a tournament more people will watch and tell their friends, and the company that runs the tournament ultimately needs to make money and having koreans is the easiest way to do so.
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The hostility against korean players as well as desire from some in the SC2 community to separate leagues specifically between koreans and "foreigners" just makes it look like people here carry an inferiority complex.
skill knows no borders and if non-koreans want to create a legitimate atmosphere for progaming in SC2, they just need to work harder because it all comes down to the work ethic and effort, which the koreans seem to have more than the foreigners. Creating an artificial environment so that lower skilled players can win tournaments by babying them is just pathetic.
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IMO isolation, could offer some growth some temporary growth. But not as much as Korean competition would bring. @OP I respect your views, but in this situation I believe that growth should be achieved by harsh competition and some losing.
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On June 26 2011 09:54 white_horse wrote: The hostility against korean players as well as desire from some in the SC2 community to separate leagues specifically between koreans and "foreigners" just makes it look like people here carry an inferiority complex.
skill knows no borders and if non-koreans want to create a legitimate atmosphere for progaming in SC2, they just need to work harder because it all comes down to the work ethic and effort, which the koreans seem to have more than the foreigners. Creating an artificial environment so that lower skilled players can win tournaments by babying them is just pathetic. Yeah I feel this comment a lot. Not letting in the Koreans is like saying "LOL YOU ALL TOO GOOD STOP BEING GOOD AND YOU CAN GET MONEY K?" It doesn't make any sense... if foreigners want to beat Koreans then they should get better, not exclude them from tournaments.
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On June 26 2011 09:37 Itsmedudeman wrote: has being isolated ever been good for anything? Yeah, isolation's been pretty good for Korean BW scene.
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In Brood War, we all loved to see the foreigners getting chances to play Koreans. WCG was awesome because it was one of the only chances for some of the best foreigners to take a stand against some of the best Koreans. And now that the foreigners as a whole have a much better shot with Starcraft 2, we want to distance ourselves from them?
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Pretty sure everyone who isn't Korean will remain a "foreigner" forever if we try to split the scenes. Anyways, given the fact that the majority of the big sponsors will want the big exposure, the big tournaments will stay international.
Segregation will just hurt the competition.
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Anyone who supports this has lost my respect, the whole point of Starcraft is to be the best of the best, not to be the best (of my x by x region). That's why in BW going to Korea was such a big deal, not because you got paid to play, but because you were playing with the best of the best. That's why so many people are upset that western "pro-gamers" are coming back to the west to play in less-skilled competitions just for the money, it goes against why we all play Starcraft in the first place.It really is "selling out," as much as I hate that term, they're giving up what made them who they are just to get more money. It's pathetic. Koreans, continue to bop all of the NA newbies, because when they ban you from tournaments you'll have the last laugh.
Which is also why the region separation is retarded, it isolates the best of NA and EU from the best of Kor, which makes us all worse off as players.
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
we should be trying to unite the scenes. The reason koreans were excluded from foreign events in BW was because for all intents and purposes every player outside of China and Korea were amateurs and Koreans (and Chinese to an extent) were the only professionals since they could sustain a career.
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On June 26 2011 10:10 InRaged wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:37 Itsmedudeman wrote: has being isolated ever been good for anything? Yeah, isolation's been pretty good for Korean BW scene.
You are either trolling or know nothing about the history of BW. Let me tell you: the brood war industry in korea started because of a rise in popularity in internet cafes in korea (late 1990s) at a time when brood war was introduced to the korean market. BW ended up becoming very popular and that is how progaming started there. I don't think any other country at the time had the necessary environment for brood war to grow. Even if there was one, the interest in brood war wasn't as strong or fervent as it was in korea. It is unfair to compare brood war to SC2 the way you are. The idea of progaming in western countries didn't really catch on until later when the skill gap became too high and so they ended up turning their attention to SC2.
This OP and whoever supports it are total idiots and need to pull their heads out of their asses.
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Want to know how to keep Koreans out of foreign tournaments - Foreign scene improves.
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These threads make me sick. How can you not be ashamed?
They also make me respect NaNiwa, ThorZaIN, Fenix and FXO even more for being true competitors.
If you aren't good enough to compete, enjoy yourself, get better, or don't enter a tournament that is going to upset your sensibility to losing.
Here is a tip by the way, an American winning a single tournament, no matter the prize pool, does absolutely nothing to grow a god damn thing other than their personal bank account and whomever is skimming their winnings.
HuK won Dreamhack, where do you think that 15k is going? Back to Canada to start a tournament or a LAN center or buy advertising?
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I cant believe theres such a shitstorm over koreans participating in online cups. If the entry states that they only require a NA account then let them come. Nobody ever complains that theres europeans playing in so called NA cups like zotac or tlopen. The double standards are ridiculous.
Its like broodwar fostered some kind of deranged protectionism in some players under the belief that because TSL did not allow Koreans it must have been for the good of the community. In reality it is more like even if a professional player wanted to play tsl, kespa would probably smite him. Not even the lure of a giant prize pool was able to net gom the bw players it needed to run a league.
The difference now is that Teamliquid openly embraces an international community for sc2 and the koreans that come with it and as should all other tournaments that want to sell themselves as being international. International doesn not equal europe + na only. Players are just going to have to deal with more korean, chinese and south american players at international events.
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If you mix the scenes, the foreigners will pull themselves up by their bootstraps, ameriCAN style
If you stay isolated it miht temporarily grow, but will deflate when the skill differential is realized.
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I have to agree with most of the responses. I think that the Koreans have to be here. We want and I believe pro-players want to be the best and face the toughest competition. If the Koreans are here, it gives extra incentive for the strong foreigners to become even better. I want to see foreigners win, but most of all I want to see the best StarCraft 2 possible and in order for that to happen, the world has to be involved.
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We need a thread- how to keep Chill out.
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korean dominance won't last forever, all it takes is time with globalization
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On June 26 2011 10:18 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 10:10 InRaged wrote:On June 26 2011 09:37 Itsmedudeman wrote: has being isolated ever been good for anything? Yeah, isolation's been pretty good for Korean BW scene. You are either trolling or know nothing about the history of BW. Let me tell you: the brood war industry in korea started because of a rise in popularity in internet cafes in korea (late 1990s) at a time when brood war was introduced to the korean market. BW ended up becoming very popular and that is how progaming started there. I don't think any other country at the time had the necessary environment for brood war to grow. Even if there was one, the interest in brood war wasn't as strong or fervent as it was in korea. It is unfair to compare brood war to SC2 the way you are. The idea of progaming in western countries didn't really catch on until later when the skill gap became too high and so they ended up turning their attention to SC2. This OP and whoever supports it are total idiots and need to pull their heads out of their asses.
I agree.
I'd also like to add that Korea isn't isolated, per se. Foreigners just aren't good enough to compete. It's actually a reversal of the "problem" foreigners have. What some people are saying on TL in relation to the Starcraft 2 scene is excluding Korean players because they're too good, which is laughable. Excluding players because they're not up to par, however, is in line with how all competitive sports work.
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Seriously, SC2 foreign community attitude towards Koreans are enraging.
I would even dare to say it is reaching a point where you could consider it racism.
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I thought I made it clear enough that I am not against global competition.
I do think the future popularity of esports lies in team play.
I do not think that team play can, practically speaking, happen at a serious league level internationally (I could be wrong).
As long as SC2 remains an individual competition, then there is of course no reason to restrict competition by geography (though also no reason not to maintain some local play): compare golf or tennis.
But even in golf, tennis, track, etc., at least in the United States, the "industry" is supported by teams at the lower level (through schools and club programs), and that will have to come to Starcraft (or any esport), imo, in order to have sustainable success.
Of course the top level of competition will always be global (compare the World Cup), even if some local league (compare the Spanish or English football leagues) have a higher overall standard for the most part.
tl;dr: Individual leagues will naturally and should remain international. Team leagues are the sustainable future infrastructure of esports and will/should be/become local.
I apologize if I was not clear enough in my original presentation (although I think I was and several people just replied to the title without reading). Koreans should keep coming to MLG, Dreamhack, etc. and I'd love to see more foreign players in the GSL - that's the nature of those competitions. I'm even super excited to see FXO go to the GTSL - but I also think that's an indication that so far the Western esports scene isn't taking the initiative to create a sustainable structure, our own team leagues.
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If a tournament says "We are only open to people from Europe" or "We are only open to people from North America", then I'd be fine with that. As long as, of course, the European tournament disallows IdrA, and the NA tournament disallows NaNiwa.
If a tournament says "We are open to everyone except Koreans", then I will not buy a ticket, nor tune in to the stream at ANY point.
The whole foreigner attidude disgusts me. We're not as good as the Koreans are, so instead of working and training to get better, we want to ban them from our events.
If that ever happens, I'm going to completely ignore the foreign scene. I have so much respect for players like Jinro, HuK, NaNiwa and ThorZaiN, the FXO guys etc etc, because their reaction to Korean dominance isn't to bitch and moan, it's to fucking GO to korea, practice their asses off and try and compete.
And what happens when they do? Jinro reaches two Ro4's in the GSL in a row. HuK wins Dreamhack, beating July and Moon to do so. Hell, ThorZaiN didn't even NEED to go to Korea to beat oGsMC.
Foreigners need to stop the whining and start fucking training. Koreans work their fucking asses off to get to the level they're at. They're not "born" with it, they're the best because they work the hardest. Banning them from our events because they've worked so hard to be the best is absolutely ridiculous.
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I prefer watching Koreans play, really, it's more fun for some reason (to me at least, I'm a weird person)
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Guess what, facing better players than you are is the only way you will be able to improve. By limiting the skill pool of tournaments, from what I gathered, for a long period of time hinders the development of any metagame.
Since you are picking on NASL, you should identify their goal with the league first before criticizing them for inviting koreans. They wanted the best of the best to be in their league, not just limited to North America. Of course, if you have a problem with their name not representing what they try to do, then take it up with the organizers.
You say that "local players can play 'safely'" if there were no pro players? From this statement, I can only assume you want the skill level to be pathetically low. Why do Naniwa/Thorzain and so many other foreigners who have not been to Korea want to play there so badly? Clearly it is because they (and most of the foreign community) believe that Korea holds the highest skill level, and practice there will drastically improve their skills. Moving to Korea is not cheap though; it is costly to fly over there, maintaining rent, food, and/or other living costs, not to mention missing out on a lot of tournaments. By allowing Koreans to play in foreign tournaments, we are able to share ideas on how to improve together as a whole.
This community is not made up of the groups of players seperated in different regions. This community is made up of all the players around the world. So why would you want to segregate people of this community?
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I agree with your point as I understand it. Tiered competition is needed to stabilise and introduce new players. One way to create tiers is to limit it by regions, thus limiting the amount of players that have the necessary skill-set for the competition. The ones just below get air time and experience, both things needed to promote their career and skill growth. This is true both for teams and individuals.
Is the majority of the players top tier players? No, so there should be more lower tier competitions than higher tier ones.
Did I get your point or did I agree with something slightly different?
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On June 26 2011 11:42 Sarang wrote: If a tournament says "We are open to everyone except Koreans", then I will not buy a ticket, nor tune in to the stream at ANY point.
The whole foreigner attidude disgusts me. We're not as good as the Koreans are, so instead of working and training to get better, we want to ban them from our events.
It should be obvious that what you're complaining about is not what I'm advocating.
I'm not saying "ban Koreans", I'm saying we (as in other geographic areas) need to focus on creating leagues that recreate what Korea already has. Korea is the pinnacle of achievement because of the team and practice culture and infrastructure that they created for BW and inherited for SC2.
If there were, for instance, a "North American Proleague", the same way there is an English Premier League and Serie A and La Liga and, yes, MLS, there might be Korean "mercenary" players on the NA teams participating, and they might even be their teams aces (the same way that MLS imports European players or the Korean baseball league has some American players), but it would be an actual North American league. Korea remains ahead of the world because Korea has Korean leagues: not that foreigners don't play there (they do and have, from Grr.... to idra to Jinro), but the league is geographically located in Korea.
Yurie picked up on a lot of what I'm trying to say. I believe any stable future for esports will have to localize. Online leagues are shiny and great, but they simply don't have the staying power - I don't think - of actual local leagues.
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1019 Posts
Local leagues are established because there is enough support and desire in the community that wants it. That's how local leagues start and I'm pretty sure that's how it started for brood war in korea in the late 1990s. And if you mean by only westerners participating in local leagues, well no shit only westerners are going to play. If you have a small city league in los angeles or philadelphia I'm pretty sure we can all agree that the players are most likely going to be local american players who live nearby.
Artificially trying to establish a "local" league and then saying that foreigners are not allowed in it is either veiled racism, veiled inferiority complex, or both. What you desire to happen (local leagues springing up in american and european communities) is only going to happen when there is enough support for SC2 and enough infrastructure for it in the west - that is why it is important to advertise and expand the SC2 scene as it is as much as possible so that such growth can occur. That means bringing the current community together, not this cock-a-bullshit segregated crap you are suggesting.
On June 26 2011 11:32 VGhost wrote:
I apologize if I was not clear enough in my original presentation (although I think I was and several people just replied to the title without reading).
The first sentence you wrote says that the title is made to be "intentionally inflammatory". And then your surprised that people are angry about your post? If you are trolling, then you are doing a very good job at it.
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How about making a trail of kimchi leading somewhere else?
Really, this doesn't warrant all the attention that it's getting, both communities at their highest levels are looking to merge and grow together, not to steal from eachother.
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On June 26 2011 12:14 VGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 11:42 Sarang wrote: If a tournament says "We are open to everyone except Koreans", then I will not buy a ticket, nor tune in to the stream at ANY point.
The whole foreigner attidude disgusts me. We're not as good as the Koreans are, so instead of working and training to get better, we want to ban them from our events. It should be obvious that what you're complaining about is not what I'm advocating. I'm not saying "ban Koreans", I'm saying we (as in other geographic areas) need to focus on creating leagues that recreate what Korea already has. Korea is the pinnacle of achievement because of the team and practice culture and infrastructure that they created for BW and inherited for SC2. If there were, for instance, a "North American Proleague", the same way there is an English Premier League and Serie A and La Liga and, yes, MLS, there might be Korean "mercenary" players on the NA teams participating, and they might even be their teams aces (the same way that MLS imports European players or the Korean baseball league has some American players), but it would be an actual North American league. Korea remains ahead of the world because Korea has Korean leagues: not that foreigners don't play there (they do and have, from Grr.... to idra to Jinro), but the league is geographically located in Korea. Yurie picked up on a lot of what I'm trying to say. I believe any stable future for esports will have to localize. Online leagues are shiny and great, but they simply don't have the staying power - I don't think - of actual local leagues.
What you are advocating goes against the development of "E-sports" whether you like it or not. Korea is not the pinnacle of achievement because the game has not been figured out yet. It is not like the current Korean metagame is the one and only way to play this game. Having exposure to the community brings about evolution of the game. I can guarantee you that we could have a bronze league tournament that brings 10k viewers simply by having Day[9]/Tastosis casting, but I highly doubt the community would continue to support that league for the next 5-10 years. Who honestly wants to see stale gameplay day after day, month after month, year after year. This is what is going to happen if your suggested segregation is allowed to happen (assuming nothing changes from Blizzard's server segregation).
Quoting Bill Maher seems only appropriate here: " 'This is what I believe'. Yeah you believe it, and I'm going to say why it's dumb"
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This sounds a lot to me, perhaps because of my background, like the infant industry argument for import substituting industrialization followed by Latin American countries during the Cold War era.
The idea there was restrict imports of manufactured goods so local industry could develop without powerful competition. It was for the most part, a failure.
StarCraft got its competitive start in Korea. The competitive StarCraft II scene would be nothing like it is without Korea's leadership starting 11 years ago. Yes the rest of the world is worse, but the gap is as small now as it has ever been (even in BroodWar, ElkY and Grrr.... were good but did not stay in the top ranks for long). And non-Koreans are cognizant of the difference and want to overcome it.
I wouldn't say there should be no local leagues, but Koreans do not have some mystical genetic superiority over non-Koreans. Should we prevent Kenyans and Ethiopians from entering "local" marathons? Should we prevent African Americans from playing basketball? I'm sure there are people who have held this view, in fact there was an interview on The Colbert Report or The Daily Show a while ago about a man who wanted a white basketball league so white people could "have more fun" or something.
Those views should sound alarming to you, and yours is the exact same. Even if something about the genetic lineage of Koreans does make them better, it's impossible to prove right now and absurd to assume. Foreigners can beat Koreans, and a lot of foreigners would and have done fine in GSL. And the skill gap I think is not growing.
Edit: Also, the best Koreans always participate in foreign leagues. Because the bad ones have no incentive to go. So the results should be slightly skewed anyway.
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On June 26 2011 09:54 white_horse wrote: The hostility against korean players as well as desire from some in the SC2 community to separate leagues specifically between koreans and "foreigners" just makes it look like people here carry an inferiority complex.
skill knows no borders and if non-koreans want to create a legitimate atmosphere for progaming in SC2, they just need to work harder because it all comes down to the work ethic and effort, which the koreans seem to have more than the foreigners. Creating an artificial environment so that lower skilled players can win tournaments by babying them is just pathetic.
I wish people would stop reading more into something than what is actually said. Like this post.
There is a reason why college ball is separated into skill divisions. No, let's not "baby" them. Every amateur or high school baller should all play in the same league. Grrr I'm angry only the best.
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Not having koreans in your tournament, if said tournament is big, kinda delegitimizes wins. Yeah, the winner will have fought and beat many many great players, you can't take that away from him, but there will always be that nagging thought "Well, he only won because no Koreans showed up." I want it to be like WC3 where there were competing regions (EU vs. CN vs. KR), that was awesome, every time there was a lan all the best players showed up. GSL unfortunately structured their tournament in such a way that there's really no incentive except to get better to go to Korean and train, so it's up to the rest of the world to pull Koreans out of Korea to compete.
Unlike Broodwar where it was well established that any random B-teamer would be more than a match for foreigners, SC2 hasn't, and hopefully will not, turn out like this. Local competitions are great, but if the tournament is big I feel it's counterproductive for the growth of players to make it region locked.
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1019 Posts
On June 26 2011 13:26 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:54 white_horse wrote: The hostility against korean players as well as desire from some in the SC2 community to separate leagues specifically between koreans and "foreigners" just makes it look like people here carry an inferiority complex.
skill knows no borders and if non-koreans want to create a legitimate atmosphere for progaming in SC2, they just need to work harder because it all comes down to the work ethic and effort, which the koreans seem to have more than the foreigners. Creating an artificial environment so that lower skilled players can win tournaments by babying them is just pathetic. I wish people would stop reading more into something than what is actually said. Like this post. There is a reason why college ball is separated into skill divisions.
so you are suggesting that a westerner-only league should take place because westerners are less skilled than the koreans at SC2 and therefore should play in their own leagues? are you being serious?
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On June 26 2011 13:26 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 09:54 white_horse wrote: The hostility against korean players as well as desire from some in the SC2 community to separate leagues specifically between koreans and "foreigners" just makes it look like people here carry an inferiority complex.
skill knows no borders and if non-koreans want to create a legitimate atmosphere for progaming in SC2, they just need to work harder because it all comes down to the work ethic and effort, which the koreans seem to have more than the foreigners. Creating an artificial environment so that lower skilled players can win tournaments by babying them is just pathetic. I wish people would stop reading more into something than what is actually said. Like this post. There is a reason why college ball is separated into skill divisions. No, let's not "baby" them. Every amateur or high school baller should all play in the same league. Grrr I'm angry only the best.
Seriously?
You do know what those same arguments have been used to justify in athletic sports, right?
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What is the point of keeping Koreans out of foreigners tournaments? So foreigners can just dream that they are as good as Koreans and get smashed whenenver they meet a Korean?
No, let them in, foreingers can catch up and will catch up. I don't think Naniwa or Thorzain can improve as much as they are improving now if it is not for those Koreans.
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If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If Koreans are so much better than foreigners that letting them in poses a threat to the foreigner scene, keeping them out will only make it worse.
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I think the OP, in an effort to attract attention to his/her thread, chose a title that undermined the legitimacy of her points.
But just as the OP isn't doing himself any favours by choosing a silly title, I don't see the point in others calling people who hold a certain opinion "idiots" who "need to pull their heads out of their asses" or to say that people should be "ashamed" for simply expressing an opinion.
But back to the topic at hand: I do believe that there needs to be a combination of local and international leagues in order for Starcraft 2 to have sustainable success on a global level. I've followed Brood War for a number of years now and as I'm sure other BW fans are well aware, there has been an explosion of non-Korean-league media content with the advent of Starcraft 2. A large portion of this content focuses on the narrative aspect of sport: the ups and downs of the various personalities within the game, the rivalries, and the interviews. With the explosion of English language Starcraft 2 coverage, I feel that it is much easier for foreign fans, especially more casual ones who wouldn't want to read Fomos' crude translations for example, to access this aspect of the ESPORT. If foreign leagues, such as the NASL, become dominated by Korean players, which looking at the numbers is certainly possible if the NASL goes from an invitational to a fully open system, casual foreign interest will likely drop off significantly.
While I personally, being a relatively hardcore ESPORTS fan along with the rest of TL, would be perfectly happy to just watch the highest level play that I possible can, my experience (and I am not saying that this is universal) is that more casual fans tend to enjoy the various narratives within competitive SC2 as much as, if not more than, the gameplay itself. Take Homestory Cup for example. It's incredibly popular, and one of the biggest reasons is that the personalities of the players really come out in the more casual setting and I don't think that the level of intimacy could have been achieved if the players (for the most part) were not speaking English. During the Brood War days the only way for foreign fans to really get to know the players was through subtitled special programmes and such, which was just not as intimate.
I do realize that there are many strong counterarguments, and the strongest one in my opinion is that local leagues will widen the skill gap between the Korean and foreigner scenes, eventually leading to the death of foreign SC2. While this is certainly possible, I believe that this is less likely than the chance of foreign sponsor interest, and therefore media coverage, dropping off due to diminishing numbers of foreigners in their own local leagues.
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I dont believe koreans ever tried to keep foreigners out of their competitions whether is it BW or SC2. i find it amusing that it may not be the same case the other way round.
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On June 26 2011 14:53 Caphe wrote: What is the point of keeping Koreans out of foreigners tournaments? So foreigners can just dream that they are as good as Koreans and get smashed whenenver they meet a Korean?
No, let them in, foreingers can catch up and will catch up. I don't think Naniwa or Thorzain can improve as much as they are improving now if it is not for those Koreans.
The problem is that most foreigners WONT catch up with the koreans because most foreign teams simply cannot just rent a fucking apartment with a cleaning lady and coach were they are training effectivly 9 hours a day. Better to let esports grow in the west as it is and occasionally play with the koreans as in WCG etc.
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On June 26 2011 16:35 OopsOopsBaby wrote: I dont believe koreans ever tried to keep foreigners out of their competitions whether is it BW or SC2. i find it amusing that it may not be the same case the other way round.
Yeah cus in BW the foreigners had such a chance.
Edit: And in SC2 I guess you have a point but koreans are still dominating there, and it's actualy their choice to invite foreigners/let them have a small training apartment there etc. We cannot see this topic in black and white.
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Since I'm not in the firing line to play all those guys willing to go to other tournaments outside of Korea than I gotta say I would hope there involved as much as they can be. Losing a shit ton to the best will teach many that they either have to keep up on skill or just step down from wanting to be at the top. Living/life arrangements imo are the biggest inhibitor to those outside of Korea but that's from an outsiders perspective so I'm not sure if that's true but either way they find a way to get sponsors to pay for it all so hopefully more team houses around the globe can help players close the gap.
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I think some leagues (not all) should stay local/national because of the simple fact that it differentiates themselves from the large amount of global league competition already (i.e. the GSL, NASL, TSL etc.) Plus there are few worthy national/continental leagues around at the moment except maybe the IPL. I say that the restrictions should be up to the organisers.
I am not saying prevent Korean players from playing in our leagues at all because that would be in some ways discrimination and in other ways demonstrating that Western players are too chicken to face Koreans. I'm just saying that if the organisers want to keep any tournament a regional event, then they should be able to choose whether or not to.
There are advantages and disadvantages to keeping events local/regional.
The advantages:
- Keeps games to one or two regions, i.e. EU, NA, SEA, KR etc. Because Blizzard have been blatant cash cows about how they handle Battle.net's regional separation, there's no longer gateways as seen in the old Battle.net and now there's regional game licences, and not even a game client that can connect to all regions.
- Reduces lag. If anybody remembers, many of the players in the TSL3 whom played as Korean residents had ridiculously high ping times when playing on EU or NA servers and huge amounts of lag which can be detrimental in some cases, although BoxeR, the legend himself said that you get used to it and it's like playing with sandbags attached to your arms.
- Preparation is arguably easier as you know your region's playing style more as you're playing on their ladder. Apparently styles of play differentiate a bit depending on region.
- As the OP said, logistics.
The disadvantages:
- When the argument of difficulty is concerned, some would say it's making a statement to Korean players that they are too good for our leagues. While there is no definitive proof that Koreans are indeed the best and that on occasions, foreigners have beaten decent Korean players (i.e. White-Ra and BoxeR in SC1 or even IdrA and MC in MLG Columbus pool play in SC2), there is still this stereotype amongst the SC community that Koreans are hardcore at the game. If a league wants to get "the best of the best" then surely refusing Korean entry would damage the credibility of that statement a bit.
- It can be seen as discrimination based on nationality, especially since in the Starcraft world, the player scene is commonly separated between Koreans and foreigners because of how long Korea has dominated the Brood War scene for.
- It's not really going to help when trying to globalise e-sports/competitive gaming or whatever people want to call it.
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On June 26 2011 21:20 GuTTuRaLPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 14:53 Caphe wrote: What is the point of keeping Koreans out of foreigners tournaments? So foreigners can just dream that they are as good as Koreans and get smashed whenenver they meet a Korean?
No, let them in, foreingers can catch up and will catch up. I don't think Naniwa or Thorzain can improve as much as they are improving now if it is not for those Koreans.
The problem is that most foreigners WONT catch up with the koreans because most foreign teams simply cannot just rent a fucking apartment with a cleaning lady and coach were they are training effectivly 9 hours a day. Better to let esports grow in the west as it is and occasionally play with the koreans as in WCG etc. It must be said that competitive gaming in general is at its infancy in the west. Only in Korea are you actually seeing gamers rarely earn large five or even low six figure salaries for being part of a team i.e. Flash who is the current Brood War bonjwa.
The issue with e-sports is that only those who constantly win tournaments are actually earning big amounts of money from it. Sure there has been a little bit of change in terms of money distribution through several ways such as online streams and video channels funded via advertising, the enlargening and fairer separation of tournament prize pools etc.
However, tt is still rare that players are earning from it. Some individuals such as TotalBiscuit have planned to make nice moves towards more fairly paying individuals for competing.. Quote from the linked Reddit post below:
Initial estimates from Justin.tv reveal that the tournament raised over $1000 in ad revenue for the next one! That's money that will go into the hands of pros, on the day that they win it. In addition to what I usually earn from the ladder stream, that means it's very likely that the next tournament will
1) Have a prizepool of around $2000-$2500
2) Will pay EVERY pro something for participating, direct via Paypal on the day for playing their matchs.
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I really don't see the point of keeping the Koreans out of foreign tournaments. In my opinion that is ruining the growth of esports. With Koreans in tournaments like MLG and Dreamhack, it dosen't just raise the skill level of the tournaments, but it let's the korean E-sports scene get more information about the foreign players and tournaments.
And when you say IPL is taking one step in the right direction. How can you say that ? If the Koreans gets isolated from western tournaments, who knows if Koreans does the same and just keeps the foreign players out of torunaments like GSL ? Even though i know that the leage is called "Global Starcraft League", but it's all in Korea. They can easily keep foreign players out of Korean leagues too.
Keeping eachother out of tournamets is just bad for the growth and popularity of E-sports. Why ? If you take other sports as examples, like soccer. Since the sport is so established and so popular let's them have local leagues for each country. And have some big tournaments for all of the top notch teams from each country, like the World Cyber Games (it's slightly different from tournaments like Uefa cups etc, but you get the point.) Still they don't block players from other country's out. That's just good having the best players playing better leagues. It's just good. To be the best you gotta compete with the best.
E-sports is starting to get a alot of fans around the world, but it's still in the evolving phase. That's why we need each other to raise the skill level. Since the Brood War days, the korean training "program" have been better. Something that transitions into SC2. So if we isolates the foreign scene from the korean scene, they will just get better.
Another advantage they have is beeing one country. The foreign scene is huge. Including America, Europe and the rest of the world. Untill teams starts to use the korean training format they will just get more ahead. Especially if we isolates our selves.
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Tbh i don't see why ppl would want to keep Koreans out... like is racist you know ? On the other hand i hardly see why ppl want to see them play, imo if they want to come to mlg and spend 1 day of playing trough the open tournament or get in with the points they have its fine. Giving them special treatment and placing them directly in the groups is not oky.
Also i still don't understand why ppl consider Korean players to be sooooooo good. 75% of the matches i see from them are all in that even a kid could think of + prefect micro.
If im not wrong Dreamhack final which was Moon vs Huk ( Huk has a very korean-ish style and has trained in Korea for almost an year now ) was a series of 5 matches in which we saw : 4 gate, roach ling all in 2 times, 6 pool , a stupidly laid out "hidden" roach rush and.
On June 26 2011 16:35 OopsOopsBaby wrote: I dont believe koreans ever tried to keep foreigners out of their competitions whether is it BW or SC2. i find it amusing that it may not be the same case the other way round. They automatically exclude us by NOT speaking english and NOT having almost any tournament but gsl for pros that want to go there and play. And while MLG gave koreans all they wanted + extra ( translator, special pcs ...etc ) GSL doesn't offer the foreign they invite anything else then a hotel room an plane tickets no food... translator...etc
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I don't see what the problem is, when TSL was announced and it banned Korean and Chinese players, everyone cheered lol.
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1019 Posts
Westerners need to understand that esports in their countries are still in infancy. esports in korea has been going on for 10 years now. This is why westerners need to focus on putting the effort and the work to establish their industry like the koreans did in the early 2000s. Nobody said it was going to be easy. Westerners finally have a chance to play on a level field with the release of SC2 and now you guys want to throw that chance away by trying to make things easier by excluding the koreans? It doesn't make any sense at all.
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On June 26 2011 16:35 OopsOopsBaby wrote: I dont believe koreans ever tried to keep foreigners out of their competitions whether is it BW or SC2. i find it amusing that it may not be the same case the other way round.
The Korean scene has been kind of schizophrenic about foreigners. Some teams tried to get them to play and of course the really early scene was briefly dominated by people like Grr.... On the other hand, the base skill level in the Korean proscene got so high that later players like Ret and iDra and (I think) Tyler who went over basically never got played - and some of that almost certainly was at least a little bit prejudice, since a lot of the b-teamers who get time are just bad. Obviously I can't say for certain.
Now GOM is making efforts to get foreign players in their leagues, which is neat - but the GSL is a local league so anybody playing in it has to get there.
I suppose when it comes down to it, I'm just getting frustrated with the fact that most tournaments are online tournaments, which aren't conducive (to my mind) to stabilizing the scene because the players commit essentially nothing. But I'm probably just impatient.
Maybe I should rename the thread something more like "Play Where You Live" or something, because that's really more the point I was trying to make.
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On June 27 2011 02:20 white_horse wrote: Westerners need to understand that esports in their countries are still in infancy. esports in korea has been going on for 10 years now. This is why westerners need to focus on putting the effort and the work to establish their industry like the koreans did in the early 2000s. Nobody said it was going to be easy. Westerners finally have a chance to play on a level field with the release of SC2 and now you guys want to throw that chance away by trying to make things easier by excluding the koreans? It doesn't make any sense at all.
Like you said, ESPORTS is in it's infancy in the West, and the infrastructure and industry are not yet built up. For that reason, I think that at this point in time, when few Western teams have team houses where their players can practice for several hours on end, etc. it is necessary for there to be local leagues. Once Western teams have sponsors, and more and more follow in the footsteps of EG, Reign, etc. and form true team houses, then we can think about truly international competition.
In the short term, leagues like the NASL will have to be the minor leagues to the GSL's major league. And as in other sports, the minor leagues, in order to maintain an environment where less developed players are able to compete, keep major league players out. It's not about creating a watered down environment where worse players can win, and it's not a racial thing (although I have seen racial elements in others' arguments which does disturb me). It's about creating an environment where less developed teams can find their footing and build their training programmes without being stomped on by teams who already practice in a fully developed training environment.
The skill gap is something that we have to acknowledge in the short term. Exceptions such as Jinro, Huk, etc. are just that: exceptions and not the norm. It is simply unrealistic, as the West lacks the ESPORTS infrastructure, to except Western players to compete with Koreans at this point in time.
Maybe I should rename the thread something more like "Play Where You Live" or something, because that's really more the point I was trying to make.
Please do.
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Quite enjoy the Koreans in the tournaments myself, makes the tournament much more exciting.
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