Update: There was no plan to exclude the Korean amateur scene when I made this post. I still would like to potentially give a bit back to the community that has provided me with so much entertainment. This wasn't about "foreign amateur BW" it was about "amateur BW" in general. The Korean servers still host starleagues amongst themselves and broadcast them, so they appear to not have the declination that foreign amateur BW did. I have since found that those willing to take an extremely condescending tone believe that SC2 will be the only one standing within a year. Since the OP, I have re-thought the idea of investing in BW only and have expanded to the idea of starting up something for e-sports in general.
and similar threads found throughout the BW section about the death of BW and how everything is crumbling, I've decided to post a blog for discussion. Bottom line: Do you think that the amateur BW scene can be saved/invested in?
With the decline of foreign players, the mass-declination of new players fluxing into the scene, and the complete decimation of any traces of a well-managed scene, I'm starting to wonder if the total and complete end of amateur BW is nigh in the foreigner division. Here's what I see are our existing issues/blocks for new players or excitement.
-No exclusive site-support for the scene (TL is almost entirely a SC2 site now)
-No up-to-date discussions/information of new maps such as sim cities, viable strategies, and special features to note
-No up-to-date places to play that are not Korea-centric (iCCup is trying to update itself, but I wonder if its too late)
-Next to no available "top foreigner" players or Koreans who can speak sufficient English to coach.
-An astonishing lack of insightful videos or instructionals. Seriously has there been anything like the series of FPVOD instructionals Ahzz and Stylish made? If there is, please let me know because he was the last one to put anything out like that and its been literally years since those were released.
-Continued dumping of the BW scene in favor of new material.
That last bullet there is something I specifically want to discuss with everyone here. If we were to find money to pump into tournaments and such, do you think it could potentially give the scene "second life"? Say if there was an additional 3-4 tournaments every year with prize pools in the hundreds of $, and then 1 or 2 major tournaments with a prize pool in the tens of thousands of $ (yeah, this would mean they would have to put the TSL1 to complete shame by comparison); Do you think this could revitalize the community?
Personally I think such a maneuver might bring old pros back enough that they play both games instead of just practicing one. It also would attract the upper-crust of the Korean amateur scene (in my opinion).
What do you guys think? Any suggestions? Quite simply put, I want to save the scene, and I may be in a position to put such things together by the middle to late 2012 year. I want to know if the consensus is that it could be worth it. Also more importantly, specifically how[/b][/b] this would affect the scene.
I never played Brood War. From what I have heard from all the pro's/ people from BW was that it was a small scene anyway (foreigner wise). My question is why if it wasn't that big before, would it all of sudden become big? You can pump money into anything, but if the community isn't there then it won't matter.
On September 26 2011 22:09 niteReloaded wrote: Are you missing something? hmmmmmmm
Try broodwar's release date(too ugly for modern kids), skill ceiling (too hard for - everyone), active foreign users (can't even play for fun to start your passion) and expected earnings (-.-)...
Gaah, you're still looking at it wrong. This is the problem. I have to go to a class, I'll get a proper response down once I'm back.
Problem is you are being to Idealistic here.
Just let me explain plz:
BW is a HARD game. In order to enjoy it you need to understand it, and in order to understand it you need to have at least some basic skill. A newbie getting into BW will just get stomped hard and wont be able to develop that basic skill before he gets frustrated. So he will quit the game before he actually understands how good the game is.
Why does this happens?
PPL this days don't think that a "hard challenge" is the same as "fun". Most ppl just play because they like to feel they are better than somebody, (friends or online players) That is what they see as "fun" these days. And SC2 and most modern games allow you to feel that you are not only better than your friends, they also show you that you are better than a whole bunch of ppl with their ranking sistem. I mean how many #1 rank are there in sc2? THOUSANDS.
Facebook games prove my point. I doesn't actually matter how shity and simple a game is. If people can look into a ranking and compare themselves with other ppl. They will feel they are better than other ppl and have "fun"
Problem with BW is that no ranking can make up for the huge learning curve that it requires. As somebody said just changing your letter in ICCUP can take you months.
Imagine that you are a new player with the "Im better than someone = fun" mentality. And a friend gets you into BW. You will need a lot of time before you can even take a gamer from your friend. And online ppl will just mercilessly trash you. You will quit before you understand how awesome is this game.
My solution!!!!
Yeah, I don't like to come up with problems and then leave them unsolved. Thats not BWish.
So the problem is not changing ppls attitude. That would also be idealist. We need to be pragmatic here. So lets change our focus.
How do we make ppl understand how awesome is this game before they lose interest?
I have stated that we can't do this from the competitive way. So instead of trying to make them play the game with guides and coaching to make their learning faster I propose....
Lets get them to WATCH the game.
Yeah that's it.
Watching BW professional scene is waaaaaaaaayy better than watching SC2 pro scene.
I play SC2 and BW. I like to play BW over SC2 just because I understand the game. As I said this is not the case with a newbie. The game is too complex.
But watching BW requires no skill, just basic understanding. And watching BW alone can be a source of better understanding of the game. That will help ppl realize that this game is awesome and it doesn't need modern graphics to be awesome.
Example: Korean girls.
Don't tell me all the girls that scream at pro matches are good BW players. But they all understand the game ENOUGH to have REAL FUN watching it.
If we get ppl to watch BW pro scene they will want to play the game just to have some of that REAL FUN. Their attitude will change to that of a guy that watches Kobe Bryan playing basketball and then goes to the court to play for fun. Even if he sucks at basketball.
How to do this?
Before SC2 beta got out. There was a project on TeamLiquid. I think it was called "Guide for new ppl to watch BW pro games" or something like that. The goal was to explain the basics of the game so that ppl will understand what they are seeing.
Needless to say it was cancelled when SC2 beta came out.
But we can take this project in our own hands.
The basic principle is that it's easier for somebody to learn enough to enjoy watching the game then learning enough to understand the game playing it.
Once they see the Pro scene they will learn to play by themselves. Or maybe they will just watch it. But that is already good for the community. More ppl watching BW pro scene should be our goals.
If we are ambitious enough we can aim to get a lot of ppl and be noticed as a potential market by kespa. (Yeah lets be optimistic ok?) That way maybe even pro scene will grow larger that it already is.
This is the good part:
You ImbaToss can do it. You made the guide for players switching from SC2. You and the pillars of our community can get on this project and make it true. (I can help off course if you need me.)
But please listen to me and lets try to get ppl into BW the easier way.
BW FOREVER!!!
TL:DR Awww hell no, plz ImbaToss read it all. I really put some effort writing this.
EDIT: Also Money will obviously will come to BW if the viewership, fan base and players increases. My theory: (More viewership -> more fan base -> more players ) -> more money -> (More viewership -> more fan base - more players)
So the easier way to help BW (the least difficult if you want) is to get more ppl to watch BW pro scene in korea, that way they will understand how awesome this game is.
I think what you would see is people who are currently playing SC2 as a professional with a background in BW would come back to win the money and then go back to playing SC2 because the money is so good right now. There just isn't staying power in BW right now and there probably won't ever be. The sort of plans to make the non-Korean BW scene a lasting force should of been put in place years ago. I'd say it's too late for that now.
Yes, if you artificially pump in money you will save the scene. I don't think it will be financially viable however - you'll basically be donating thousands (tens of thousands) of dollars a year to the BW charity. There aren't enough eyeballs on foreign BW any more to generate much advertising or sponsorship revenue.
On September 27 2011 00:14 luckylefty wrote: I never played Brood War. From what I have heard from all the pro's/ people from BW was that it was a small scene anyway (foreigner wise). My question is why if it wasn't that big before, would it all of sudden become big? You can pump money into anything, but if the community isn't there then it won't matter.
Also where would you "find" money...
Don't think the foreigner scene of BW was as big as the SC2 scene now, but I wouldn't really call it small. It was one of the games in WCG, had many sponsored teams that are now famous sc2 teams such as EG, and schools even had some student run classes on scbw.
I dont think having bigger monetary awards would draw people back, it would just make sure that the top foreigners nowadays dont quit. I mean unless you are a billionaire and put TONS of money in it......lol.
I play BW because I personally, in my opinion, think it is more fun, and I don't have the time or commitment or desire to try to become a pro at sc2. Many top sc1 foreigners do not like SC2 over BW but just switched for the money and fame.
Foreign (especially western) Brood War was hardly "worth" investing in before SC2 beta was even out yet. It was community-driven for a long time, with TSLs being the biggest tournaments in the west for a long time, and I doubt they have been worth it from a financial standpoint.
I wouldn't say that what Brood War needs right now is money (in terms of tournaments / prize money). What it needs is more attention, people who will watch the pro games and give playing a try.
Well from the feedback I see so far, the general consensus is that more money pumped into tournaments would not help keep the scene or revive it.
What if that money were placed into more instructionals (paying top players to give in-depth details about games while they're playing FPVOD) and advertising? I guess I'd still try to include some tournaments (otherwise what would I advertise?), but lesser scale than previously mentioned.
I'm not going to go into specifics, but let's say I'm good at all the things I do in real life and I live QUITE comfortably. That being said, I've loved BW since I was a kid and only recently found the pro scene only to have SC2 beta get released, and the scene I just discovered gets a kick in the balls with a steel-toed boot. As someone with a bit of finances to throw at whatever I want, I would look towards throwing it into this scene. Maybe not even just BW, but e-sports in general. I think e-sports could really be the next big thing that hits the world as this technological age really starts to boom.
That also being said, I'm a smart man with my investments and would like to thoroughly research my demographic of interest before placing sums into it. I figured if I started my research now, I might be in a position of knowledge to give BW community a second breath late next year (if the research proves positive).
On September 27 2011 00:54 Talin wrote: Foreign (especially western) Brood War was hardly "worth" investing in before SC2 beta was even out yet. It was community-driven for a long time, with TSLs being the biggest tournaments in the west for a long time, and I doubt they have been worth it from a financial standpoint.
I wouldn't say that what Brood War needs right now is money (in terms of tournaments / prize money). What it needs is more attention, people who will watch the pro games and give playing a try.
I wonder if TSL 1 and 2 were financial successes to Razer or PokerStrategy, respectively. I had the feeling that they weren't. Of course, I don't know any of the behind-the-scenes info but I would guess that Razer didn't return for TSL2 because it was financially successful, and PokerStrategy wouldn't mind sponsoring TSL2, even if it were a loss, because they could follow-up by sponsoring the huge SC2 TL tournaments that are a bit more lucrative.
And if big foreign BW tournaments weren't financially stable at the height of foreign BW popularity, there's no chance they would be now.
On September 27 2011 00:20 00Zarathustra wrote: Basics are:
-Get ppl into watching BW is easier than making them good players.
-Ppl watching BW will understand how awesome this game is and will try to become good players by themselves because they now like the game.
- Make a guide for new ppl focused on the basic understanding they need to enjoy watching BW. .
Liking the game doesnt mean that u wanna be good at it. I love tennis, American football, snooker etc etc.. but i know i will never be good at it. never. so i prefer watching it, simply because the pros are so much better. an now spending 5-10 years of my life to become an "average" player.. i simply dont have the time for it.
The same is with scbw. i love to watch some games from the top pros.. but i will never touch the game again.
I would say that as someone who never played SC:BW that a small percentage of people who like me started with SC2 would be interested in learning to play SC:BW because I hear a lot of people describe what a cool game it is, but then when I hear you and other people rubbishing SC2 (the game I enjoy playing) and then I feel like I'm not so interested anymore.
Unless you're putting something in excess of six digits into the scene, it won't do a damn thing. Even if you were to do that, it will only keep the existing talent there a little longer, not draw new blood, and does not address any of the much bigger issues:
There is an immediate successor to the game That scene is much, much larger, is not declining anytime soon, and has plenty of backing from prominent groups and companies investing money as sponsors and advertisers Throwing money at the game doesn't increase viewers of the pro game Throwing money at it doesn't get interested in the game at all (nor would money spent on tutorials, because SC2 is shiny and new, and all the pros are there not in BW) Because of the lack of eyes and new blood, sponsors and advertisers have no incentive to spend money in the scene
any kind of money would be a donation, not an investment, because you wouldn't see a dime and it would have little effect.
On September 27 2011 01:47 deathly rat wrote: I would say that as someone who never played SC:BW that a small percentage of people who like me started with SC2 would be interested in learning to play SC:BW because I hear a lot of people describe what a cool game it is, but then when I hear you and other people rubbishing SC2 (the game I enjoy playing) and then I feel like I'm not so interested anymore.
This is not relevant or helpful. This is for discussion of methods to bring renewed interest into the game from people who have a long-standing history with the community and could actually offer insight into how to draw masses (not just you) back into it. People with this kind of opinion only have it because of a lack of knowledge about BW. The things you don't like us saying about SC2 are only said because they're the truth. There's nothing offensive about it unless you don't like the truth. None of the posts above have spoken about SC2 in an aggressively ignorant manner.
On September 27 2011 01:52 Zergneedsfood wrote: I think people just need to stop talking about saving the scene and just play the game and have fun.
Honestly, people have been talking about the scene being dead for about 5 years now. Probably longer but that's when I remember first hearing about it.
On September 27 2011 01:47 deathly rat wrote: I would say that as someone who never played SC:BW that a small percentage of people who like me started with SC2 would be interested in learning to play SC:BW because I hear a lot of people describe what a cool game it is, but then when I hear you and other people rubbishing SC2 (the game I enjoy playing) and then I feel like I'm not so interested anymore.
This is not relevant or helpful. This is for discussion of methods to bring renewed interest into the game from people who have a long-standing history with the community and could actually offer insight into how to draw masses (not just you) back into it. People with this kind of opinion only have it because of a lack of knowledge about BW. The things you don't like us saying about SC2 are only said because they're the truth. There's nothing offensive about it unless you don't like the truth. None of the posts above have spoken about SC2 in an aggressively ignorant manner.
-Continued shunning of the BW scene. SC2 just plain has too many people who are head-strong about their precious SC2 scene to see what happened to BW community sites. They're pretty much all dead now, and everything is going to SC2.
That's some passive aggressive whiney bullshit right there.
And what he's saying absolutely should be of concern. I played BW since it came out pretty much, I still love the game, and I agree with him that I cannot stand how whiny the people who are still passionate are. It's incredibly annoying.
On September 27 2011 01:52 Zergneedsfood wrote: I think people just need to stop talking about saving the scene and just play the game and have fun.
Honestly, people have been talking about the scene being dead for about 5 years now. Probably longer but that's when I remember first hearing about it.
Yeah. It was overstated then, but clearly in decline at least for 2-3 years now. However, I'd have to imagine this is the last year or two for it
If you enjoy watching the games your investment will produce then yes. Broodwar is a far too deep and difficult to ever appeal to the call of duty/starcraft2/halo generation of "gamers".
On September 27 2011 01:49 Hawk wrote: There is an immediate successor to the game That scene is much, much larger, is not declining anytime soon, and has plenty of backing from prominent groups and companies investing money as sponsors and advertisers Throwing money at the game doesn't increase viewers of the pro game Throwing money at it doesn't get interested in the game at all (nor would money spent on tutorials, because SC2 is shiny and new, and all the pros are there not in BW) Because of the lack of eyes and new blood, sponsors and advertisers have no incentive to spend money in the scene
any kind of money would be a donation, not an investment, because you wouldn't see a dime and it would have little effect.
Hmm. I've already come to the conclusion that placing money into tournaments itself will not help. I was thinking about putting money into SC2 as well but I just plain didn't like SC2. If I have no other lucrative option, I may have no choice but to opt into it for monetary reasons like everyone else.
From my understanding, BW pro scene still has a great deal of money in it from sponsors and advertisers as well. I'm wondering how they started the whole scene off. If I knew that, maybe I could kick-start some of those key elements.
I'm well aware that throwing money at it won't increase viewers but that was also never a stated intention of mine.
I'm curious how you reached the conclusion that making tutorials or updating existing databases wouldn't get anyone interested. I understood that the main block of SCBW is its difficulty curve. Not that people just look at it and think the graphics are a good enough reason not to ever play it. Is that really all it took for SC2 to blast off? A graphics change? Also how do you figure all the pros are over in SC2 and not BW? To my knowledge, almost all the top pros are still in BW and the Korean scene isn't toppling all that fast. I was actually hoping maybe to catch some of them and get them involved in this (maybe top amateurs at least).
I understand the lack of eyes and new blood preventing some potential investors, but that was the explicit purpose of this discussion blog in the first place. The last statement in that group is literally just a re-phrasing of what I already said I have come to understand as the problems that are ushering the complete wipe-out of the amateur scene.
You didn't really offer any insight as to what could be done. You just rehashed what was already stated and then basically said "give up for these reasons and switch already". This is not the information I was looking for.
I think chill kind of hit it on the head. You would be giving it artificial life. I mean you couldn't allow koreans into it, otherwise no foreigners would even bother trying because they couldn't win with the skill discrepancy. It could give life and competition to the scene, but as soon as the money dries up so would BW again, SC2 has tons of sponsors and popularity and generic mainstream success so there is TONS of people who know what it is and watch it, broodwar is just too niche now-a-days, so it would only be artificial money.
On September 27 2011 01:49 Hawk wrote: There is an immediate successor to the game That scene is much, much larger, is not declining anytime soon, and has plenty of backing from prominent groups and companies investing money as sponsors and advertisers Throwing money at the game doesn't increase viewers of the pro game Throwing money at it doesn't get interested in the game at all (nor would money spent on tutorials, because SC2 is shiny and new, and all the pros are there not in BW) Because of the lack of eyes and new blood, sponsors and advertisers have no incentive to spend money in the scene
any kind of money would be a donation, not an investment, because you wouldn't see a dime and it would have little effect.
Hmm. I've already come to the conclusion that placing money into tournaments itself will not help. I was thinking about putting money into SC2 as well but I just plain didn't like SC2. If I have no other lucrative option, I may have no choice but to opt into it for monetary reasons like everyone else.
From my understanding, BW pro scene still has a great deal of money in it from sponsors and advertisers as well. I'm wondering how they started the whole scene off. If I knew that, maybe I could kick-start some of those key elements.
I'm well aware that throwing money at it won't increase viewers but that was also never a stated intention of mine.
I'm curious how you reached the conclusion that making tutorials or updating existing databases wouldn't get anyone interested. I understood that the main block of SCBW is its difficulty curve. Not that people just look at it and think the graphics are a good enough reason not to ever play it. Is that really all it took for SC2 to blast off? A graphics change? Also how do you figure all the pros are over in SC2 and not BW? To my knowledge, almost all the top pros are still in BW and the Korean scene isn't toppling all that fast. I was actually hoping maybe to catch some of them and get them involved in this (maybe top amateurs at least).
I understand the lack of eyes and new blood preventing some potential investors, but that was the explicit purpose of this discussion blog in the first place. The last statement in that group is literally just a re-phrasing of what I already said I have come to understand as the problems that are ushering the complete wipe-out of the amateur scene.
You didn't really offer any insight as to what could be done. You just rehashed what was already stated and then basically said "give up for these reasons and switch already". This is not the information I was looking for.
I would say graphics is a main problem with BW, as well as the difficulty. Many of my friends have watched me play Broodwar only to dismiss it because of the graphics.
The reason why there are a lot of top pros in Korea is that a) they are making good money from it and b) KeSPA did its best to make sure SC2 did not take off by banning its players from playing it. [Which is every single top pro.]
In order to give the scene a "new life", I would say you would have to pay for the development of a BW with better graphics. Even this might not do it, since you would be in direct competition of SC2, as well as the difficulty in acquiring the rights from Blizzard to start such a project.
On September 27 2011 02:23 frogmelter wrote: The reason why there are a lot of top pros in Korea is that a) they are making good money from it and b) KeSPA did its best to make sure SC2 did not take off by banning its players from playing it. [Which is every single top pro.]
In order to give the scene a "new life", I would say you would have to pay for the development of a BW with better graphics. Even this might not do it, since you would be in direct competition of SC2, as well as the difficulty in acquiring the rights from Blizzard to start such a project.
I was unaware the top BW pros were playing competitively on SC2 at the same time they were doing the BW scene. I also agree the logistics of giving it completely new elements are probably too much to deal with (or be worth). I didn't want to join the investors of SC2 because there's just so many. It would be hard to get noticed with all the others bunched up.
Also, what ARE the returns for the companies who are sponsoring SC2? Does anyone have any links to company records or statements regarding their investment return?
The difficulty curve isn't the main hurdle in people getting into bw. It's SC2. People like new stuff. They don't like shit that's nearly 15 years old. Professional gaming is pretty much a series of bubbles, and these bubbles are dictated by the casuals, not the hardcore dudes who'd be happy playing the same game for the next quarter century.
Your average gamer who is interested in RTS games is going to play the one that is being played by all of his friends, is being actively promoted by the parent company and other outlets, and has a growing international professional scene that includes many big names from the previous game. Probably none of your friends, real life or internetz, play BW anymore. Blizzard doesn't promote it, big ticket events have been dropping it. The pro scene is isolated to a tiny ass country.
The learning curve has always been there for BW and it was very popular for a long time. Those other issues weren't. It's pretty apparent what the hurdles are. And those hurdles dictate everything from talent jumping to SC2 to advertisers and sponsors bailing for the bigger scene.
And I didn't offer a solution because there isn't one. Just take it for what it is, and enjoy it while you still have it. That's the best you can do at this point.
On September 27 2011 02:27 Hawk wrote: And I didn't offer a solution because there isn't one. Just take it for what it is, and enjoy it while you still have it. That's the best you can do at this point.
Very well. I still enjoy the BW scene, maybe I'll make an SC2 team out of the old pros when they disband. I'm just trying to figure out how I can help e-sports prosper world-wide and not just in the Blizzard games either. I want kids to be able to grow up saying "I want to be a professional gamer!" and have it be a legitimate, respectable way to make a living in society. Even if only a temporary youth-oriented career, it would please me to see people have this option.
I also ask you to remember that that "tiny ass country" is not only at the top % of the technologically-advanced countries in the world, but also is the birth of professional e-sports and that is where all e-sports will branch out from. It is also my birthplace and what I believe is the keystone to the success or failure of e-sports as we now know it.
Also the "not being able to be noticed amongst all the mass sponsors/tournaments" thing is bothering me. Remember, you're not talking to some die-hard gamer wanting to desperately cling to a scene or a game. You're speaking with someone who is looking for a large investment opportunity.
i dont quite understand why you felt this needs major discussing ("addressing?"). the post is far too melodramatic. yes, there's no getting around the fact there will probably never be another 'big show' tournament for bw. so what? why does BW need that?
im quite enjoying ISL, along with many other people here, not to mention all the other myriad of tournaments in the subforum. further, by your own post, there are still many new people discovering BW all by themselves.
there is no issue here. bw is past its prime and you're not going to see a TSL-level revival of the foreigner scene. but that doesn't mean you somehow stop enjoying playing the game or watching and pro-am tournaments like ISL.
On September 27 2011 02:35 a176 wrote: i dont quite understand why you felt this needs major discussing ("addressing?"). the post is far too melodramatic..
No, its really not. I was trying to see if there was any way to give the BW scene a revival so that it could turn into a lucrative option once again. I enjoy that scene more than SC2 scene, so it was naturally my first option. This isn't about me forcing the issue of saving BW, this is about me trying to make another investment amongst my others.
I don't know about you guys, but when I was little I dreamt of being a professional gamer when I grew up. Sadly, the profession did not exist back then, and I am far too old now to be trying such a thing. I can, however, invest in the e-sports scene regardless of if BW is there or not. This is the main purpose of the post and why it was titled "Is it worth investing in amateur BW?". I don't know how you didn't understand this.
IMO, what needs to be done is that the foreigner amateur scene needs to be unified.
1: Create THE central place to play -If what you're saying is right and that iCCup sucks now, then it's a huge blow. If people are playing all over this place, it's not a good thing. The more contact that people have, the better.
2: Create very clear hierarchies to stop discouragement -Yes, non-Korean SC2 is big; but there are a number of people who are curious as to the roots of SC2 and begin to play BW. The problem is that when they start to play, they get utterly destroyed by a D player, and they really have no idea of went wrong. When they ask, they get told to practice build orders for an hour a day until they can pull it off flawlessly. That's really no fun. When new people enter the scene, they need to connect with other new people right away. They need to develop bonds (whether they're friendly or heated) and they need to get involved to be able to stay curious and stay interested. The best way to do this is to match them with other people around their skill level. BW is not an inherently difficult game; what makes it difficult is the amount of strategy that's been poured into the game over years and years. But when two people have very little knowledge of that strategy, it can't be considered difficult. It's commonly said that iCCup D+ = Masters. There are a ton of players who aren't Masters who are driving the SC2 scene. Can you imagine if SC2's ladder was simply "Master league" and "Shit league"? People would not be able to feel themselves improve, especially if Bronze players constantly matched up against Diamond players. I think having smaller steps would definitely benefit players, especially if we expect to receive a constant influx of them.
3: Tutorials/Instruction I think the TL wiki is outdated and not very organized... to some extent, I feel like the stuff available now is worse now than what was available pre-SC2, since the older stuff dried up or is harder to find. I do have a specific idea of what I would like to see, but I feel like creating such a huge strategy map would cost a significant amount of time and effort. Still, the benefits would be enormous as people would be able to create specific road plans for improvement.
I think throwing money at tournaments is not the way to go. Tournaments should arise naturally by the will of the players to demonstrate their skill, instead of just being looked at as a way to get extra money. To revitalize the scene, you need to build long-term and committed interest and keep new players in. There have been a number of games that focused on a huge major tournament with no long-term plans or growth, and so their pro-scenes died out fairly quickly after that major.
On September 27 2011 02:27 Hawk wrote: And I didn't offer a solution because there isn't one. Just take it for what it is, and enjoy it while you still have it. That's the best you can do at this point.
Very well. I still enjoy the BW scene, maybe I'll make an SC2 team out of the old pros when they disband. I'm just trying to figure out how I can help e-sports prosper world-wide and not just in the Blizzard games either. I want kids to be able to grow up saying "I want to be a professional gamer!" and have it be a legitimate, respectable way to make a living in society. Even if only a temporary youth-oriented career, it would please me to see people have this option.
I also ask you to remember that that "tiny ass country" is not only at the top % of the technologically-advanced countries in the world, but also is the birth of professional e-sports and that is where all e-sports will branch out from. It is also my birthplace and what I believe is the keystone to the success or failure of e-sports as we now know it.
Also the "not being able to be noticed amongst all the mass sponsors/tournaments" thing is bothering me. Remember, you're not talking to some die-hard gamer wanting to desperately cling to a scene or a game. You're speaking with someone who is looking for a large investment opportunity.
Actually, I'm talking to a condescending random on the internet, who seems to be more interested in talking about how he supposedly has got lots of money to play with than anything else, and doesn't seem to have given this idea much serious thought at all
but hey, do as you wish moneybags! My advice would be listen to a176 who said to enjoy the scene as is and not worry about it
I like this thread. I think this can get some serious discussion if we stay away from the extremes that have already been stated ('BW is dead so don't bother', and 'we can make BW as relevant as SC2 again!'). I don't think there's anything we could do to make BW mainstream again, and I think that's an issue with the core of the game itself. I love it and still play it much more than SC2, but I understand its difficulty curve and outdated, skill-heavy mechanics will not bring in today's gamers.
What we COULD improve is its accessibility. First, a more professional and dedicated webspace for English commentary of Proleague BW is necessary (some discussion started in this thread). This is NOT a suggestion to branch away completely form TL. TL, without a doubt, is still the Mecca of all things Starcraft. Would require us to completely hash out a plan and propose it the TL staff. This could be an organized BW section with English VODs that aren't either buried in BW forum posts or Sayle's stream links. Would also require dedicated volunteer casters/producers, and more. This would make BW more accessible for viewers...
...But we also need to make it more accessible for players. Right now we have to download Korean software and play on their servers, and install Korean language packs if desired or sift through similarly indistinguishable symbols to find games if you don't. We also use an antiquated matching system to find games. All this is fine to us BW junkies, but you have to admit that new people would see all this and go HELL NO. Pie-in-the-Sky thought time: if we could use ICCup servers and developed a launcher that had a matchmaking system in it similar to SC2's, do you think that would increase the number of players? I think it would go a long way in doing that and would bring BW a step closer to modern day gaming. This is obviously a much larger undertaking, but I think it at least directs attention to things we CAN change (out of game software) and not things we CAN'T (actual gameplay).
ISL level stuff is fine. I don't think we need more than that imo. The competition/skill just between the people left will increase too steadily, as long as they stick with the game (which by this point seems likely). We really don't need a million tournaments with tons of events running at once.
Sponsoring a tournament yourself though is bound to be actually quite fun if you are into the game that much and you have the money and don't expect any return on it.
I think Duncan is spot on with the issues to bringing foreign BW back, or at least keeping it in decent shape.
The primary issues regarding BW foreign growth are - lack of matchmaking - lack of regional language casts(english primary of course) of progames - lack of centralized community.
TL has always been the go-to site for KOREAN bw, but in terms of foreign BW it was quite equally split with gg.net and I think making it more unified, centralized and sign-posted would be good. If Iccup or any other server could implement matchmaking into a launcher, BW would seriously see a revival. However I think the game might be too dated to create a function like that, not to mention to the coding difficulties. So instead, having a complete section dedicated to foreign BW, with Guides, Casted Vods etc would be the steps that our community can take. These are the things we can solve, but of course, it requires dedication and of course people with the knowledge. I couldn't write a guide for anything because I fucking suck at BW, but I'd be willing to help format it or do other work for someone who does have the knowledge.
On September 27 2011 03:59 Armathai wrote: If Iccup or any other server could implement matchmaking into a launcher, BW would seriously see a revival. However I think the game might be too dated to create a function like that, not to mention to the coding difficulties.
It already exists.
However, it came out at the wrong time and far too late and promptly died.
Why does the OP's first 4 thread links go to 3 threads about specific korean news (jaedong updates, kal and pure apply for ace, yellow advertises a poker site). I don't see why that has relevance to foreign broodwar (yes, I know the content of the thread posters will talk about it, but the thread themselves are only about korea).
Korea has been the place for bw for a long time. Definitely at this point investing in foreign bw is not going to happen.
The way I see it, there are a number of possible paths left for BW.
1) Things might continue to go downhill and the game will essentially die. Sadly, this seems pretty likely. 2) Things will continue to just tick over the way they are for a long time, maybe a bit smaller, but continuing. I would like that actually, but it doesn't seem particularly realistic. 3) Somehow a significant chunk of Chinese people become permanently involved in watching and playing BW. That would be a real boost that would last for quite some time. In my opinion, that's the last possible way to "save" BW in the sense that most fans would like. It seems possible, but not particularly easy. A Chinese pro team would help a lot.
On September 27 2011 03:59 Armathai wrote: If Iccup or any other server could implement matchmaking into a launcher, BW would seriously see a revival. However I think the game might be too dated to create a function like that, not to mention to the coding difficulties.
It already exists.
However, it came out at the wrong time and far too late and promptly died.
I think large sums of money poored into the foreign scene could go a long way in keeping it not only alive, but indeed prospering outside of Korea even. Whether it's sponsoring tournaments with all of what that might entail (just having a nice pricepool/hiring people to do casting/video editing and such to spruse things up) or creating a web portal where BW is the main attraction and isn't looked upon by the newer crowd as some antiquated cobweb infested game crumbling apart, is all equally good.
I wouldn't see any of those measures as keeping it alive artificially. What is that even supposed to mean, "artificially"? If people get hyped because a tournament has quite substantial winnings and decide, on that basis alone, to watch it, and the viewership figure rises as a result, does that make the rise in popularity artificial? Isn't thats what happening with SC2 right now? That scene is basically built on hype alone, not on any of its "own" merits. I've heard quite a few pro players trash-talk SC2 and yet they still play the game. Why? Could it be because of money per chance? Without money the defiler tourneys would probably never be held any longer, and... ? The same applies to the ISL's or any other tournament for that matter. Does that somehow invalidate them; does it undermine their legitimacy or decrease their spectating value, that if not for people sponsoring the events we wouldn't have them in the first place? Granted, whatever investments you make into the foreign scene won't be able to give it the nudge needed to overtake SC2 in viewership terms or the like. But, if you invest wisely, you could very well stabilize the BW scene and perhaps even create and upward slope as far as BW players/viewers/site visitors is concerned.
Far be it from me to tell you to spend your money and what to spend it on, but if creating a stable- if not growing BW scene outside of Korea is your objective then than I would instruct you to act as I would in your position. I would be waving a wad of cash infront of some programers and tell them to create a new BW client that included all of the best additional features that have been created and released by the community/blizzard over the years (zoom-in/out feature, supply/apm counter, matchmaking system, updated "helpful tips" guides, fpvod viewing, the ability to follow a unit by clicking its icon, built in streaming/recording capabilites, ability to rewind replays, the list goes and and on and on). And a BW version with HD resolution wouldn't be bad either :p I dont know how costly this would get though and whether or not you'd get any significant return on your investement, however I do know that this is what I would do.
Just don't listen to the pessimists around here trying to sell you on the "artificial" argument, BW is such a superior game over SC2 (imo) that I, like you, think old pros who've switched would be willing to play both side by side or even switch back fully, even if it would be a risky career move and pay less, if just for the chance to play the game I'm certain they hold to be the more enjoyable and rewarding one to play. As I said, challenging SC2 head on is proably foolish, but to increase the influx of new players by making it easier to get started and improving is nine tenths of getting an exponential curve started that would be the lynchpin to secure the future of the scene to ensure that the newer generation of gamers get to grow up in a world of e-sport, with BW as the flagship leading the way.
In conclusion, you just gotta take the leap man. Take it! For BW.
On September 27 2011 00:14 luckylefty wrote: I never played Brood War. From what I have heard from all the pro's/ people from BW was that it was a small scene anyway (foreigner wise). My question is why if it wasn't that big before, would it all of sudden become big? You can pump money into anything, but if the community isn't there then it won't matter.
Also where would you "find" money...
I can probably fork up a couple hundreds to get some tournaments started